New Palm Pre apps underscore Apple's iPhone limitations

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  • Reply 101 of 212
    duecesdueces Posts: 89member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by anantksundaram View Post


    1) No, I won't post my zipcode. I don't need to prove a claim to some self-professed, smart-ass, know-it-all in an internet forum who overstates/exaggerates his case. (Go re-read what you originally wrote).



    2) I suggest you take a look at http://reviews.cnet.com/8301-12261_7-10209477-51.html, and stew in it.



    3) So you're happy with Verizon where you live, and I am happy with my ATT (and the iPhone on it) where I live. What's not to like?



    1. I didn't ask you to prove anything, all I asked is for you to post your zip code. If your that paranoid that you cant post your zip code, where likely tens of thousands if not hundreds of thousands of people live if your on ATT, since ATT cover mainly metropolitan areas only, than you are very insecure.



    2. You linked to me an article about Verizon wanting software on phones??? What does that have to do with anything.



    3. I've NEVER had Verizon and never will. Theres nothing wrong with the current situation, as long as you don't go spreading false information for the potential sheep on the board to chew on.
  • Reply 102 of 212
    solipsismsolipsism Posts: 25,726member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by pixelcruncher View Post


    It is not Apple's right. The rights of the consumer supercede the rights of any particular company in the US. The EFF is taking Apple to court over jailbreaking iPhones, and if they win, iPhone jailbreaking will be made completely legal. Nothing Apple can do about it. Apple has absolutely no power to dictate the rights of the consumer, that's for the judicial system to decide. Simple as that. Now, Apple can win by arguing that the consumer is best served by not allowing jailbroken iPhones, but, again, that is not for Apple to decide.



    Jailbreaking iPhones is legal right now. Are you stating that Apple will have to fix and replace iPhones that less than savvy jailbreakers break despite Apple's warranty only supporting Phones that are used within the confines of the agreement? Should I be able to use any product I buy as I see fit and expect the warranty to be upheld? I have an idea what you want to say.



    Apple maintains a 3rd-party app store so they are responsible for what is sold through that store. If you are not aware, Apple gets sued quite often for foolish things. They are getting sued because their "twice as fast" in reference to 3G over EDGE is not always the case 100% of the time in certain areas. Can you imagine the class action cases if Apple's reported battery time was cut down to an hour because background apps, for example, killed the device in under an hour? When the Pre has a proper SDK that isn't just for webcode running on an Apple-funded browser then we'll see if they allow for background apps the same was a PC. running multiple pages of a web-browser is not true background processing.
  • Reply 103 of 212
    melgrossmelgross Posts: 32,991member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by pixelcruncher View Post


    It is not Apple's right. The rights of the consumer supersede the rights of any particular company in the US. The EFF is taking Apple to court over jailbreaking iPhones, and if they win, iPhone jailbreaking will be made completely legal. Nothing Apple can do about it. Apple has absolutely no power to dictate the rights of the consumer, that's for the judicial system to decide. Simple as that. Now, Apple can win by arguing that the consumer is best served by not allowing jailbroken iPhones, but, again, that is not for Apple to decide.



    That's ridiculous!



    How could you possibly make a statement like that?



    If what you said were true, all Windows PCs would HAVE to run all Mac, Linux, and software from all other OS's. All devices would HAVE to have every single feature anyone could ever think up, no matter how useless most would find them to be.



    You really better get your thinking box on. can you point out a single device that does everything? Of course not! It's impossible.



    What gives YOU the right to decide what features Apple should put in its products?



    The only rights you have in that regard are to either buy, or not buy the product. Just like everyone else.



    And if the courts decide that Apple is right? What then? Will you keep quiet?



    Even if somehow, the courts decide that jailbreaking isn't improper, that doesn't mean that Apple will have to support it. The courts can't make them do that. You would have to take your chances, just as you would have to do now. It really wouldn't change anything.



    You also are misunderstanding the difference between hardware and software. According to you, though you may not know it, your statement also assumes that Apple would have to add hardware features the phone doesn't have. There's no way the courts would ever agree with that!
  • Reply 104 of 212
    melgrossmelgross Posts: 32,991member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by pixelcruncher View Post


    No it doesn't. The rights of the consumer supersede the rights of any particular company. If any companies actions are found to be anti-competitive, monopolistic, or harmful the consumer, those practices can be shut down.



    Check United States v. Microsoft.



    You don't understand this at all, do you?
  • Reply 105 of 212
    melgrossmelgross Posts: 32,991member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Dueces View Post


    1. I didn't ask you to prove anything, all I asked is for you to post your zip code. If your that paranoid that you cant post your zip code, where likely tens of thousands if not hundreds of thousands of people live if your on ATT, since ATT cover mainly metropolitan areas only, than you are very insecure.



    I don't see you putting where you live in your ID line under your screen name.



    Some might think that was paranoid as well.
  • Reply 106 of 212
    solipsismsolipsism Posts: 25,726member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by pixelcruncher View Post


    No it doesn't. The rights of the consumer supersede the rights of any particular company. If any companies actions are found to be anti-competitive, monopolistic, or harmful the consumer, those practices can be shut down.



    Check United States v. Microsoft.



    From everything you've stated Apple's choices are hurting themselves by allowing others a chance to compete with other smartphones thus helping the consumer have more choices. None of that or the 1% US market-share for the iPhones sounds anti-competitive to me so what exactly are you going on about?
  • Reply 107 of 212
    addaboxaddabox Posts: 12,664member
    I would also like to point out that mentioning a few instances wherein companies selling goods and services actually are constrained in what they can do, as in the case of monopoly abuse or consumer safety, in no way makes the case that "the rights of the consumer supersede the rights of any particular company", which is so broad as to be meaningless.



    If Apple wants to make a computer with a completely new and incompatible with everything that has come before it peripheral interconnect, or no ports at all, or a new wireless technology that doesn't work with WiFi, or some kind of mass storage device that they developed in house and costs $100/GB, they are perfectly free to do that.



    Hell, they could run their computers on "Apple Power" and require you to buy a $50,000 generator that sits in your yard.



    No one's going to buy a thing like that, so they don't. To the extant that non-interoperable or expensive features exist on successful products, one would assume that the advantages outweigh the shortcomings, and point is moot.



    Outside of monopoly and safety (and I'm sure there must be one or two other special cases I'm not thinking of) everyone's free to make whatever outlandish, incompatible, expensive to operate, difficult to fix and impossible to upgrade widget they want. They just won't be doing it for very long.
  • Reply 108 of 212
    anantksundaramanantksundaram Posts: 20,185member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Dueces View Post


    1. I didn't ask you to prove anything, all I asked is for you to post your zip code. If your that paranoid that you cant post your zip code, where likely tens of thousands if not hundreds of thousands of people live if your on ATT, since ATT cover mainly metropolitan areas only, than (sic) you are very insecure.



    Nah, I don't think I am paranoid.



    But.......yikes.... I am insecure? This, from a guy whose posts are almost always rants about Apple products (among my favorites: your claim that Shuffle returns are up 2000%, and your accusation that a poster must be on heroin because he said something nice about Apple).



    I think you may have some issues yourself..... perhaps a job insecurity (because you work for a competing carrier or platform), or perhaps you got dissed by Apple (rightly or wrongly) for some reason, or perhaps you can't afford an Apple product that you really want, or perhaps people who are (mostly) happy with Apple somehow threaten your persona and all that validates it, or perhaps you just thrive on being a very negative person in a forum that is primarily about appreciating -- but when necessary or relevant, complaining about -- Apple and its products.



    You need to get out more, or at least, away from here to a forum where your points of view might actually be appreciated.



    :-)
  • Reply 109 of 212
    hill60hill60 Posts: 6,992member
    I've noticed that brakes slow my car down so I'm removing them, it's my Goddamn car I'll do what I want with it!

  • Reply 110 of 212
    chronsterchronster Posts: 1,894member
    I actually registered to post this.



    Now, I know this is the APPLE insider, but every time I read an article here it's like trying to get news from mad magazine or fox. I don't see why you can't be just honest and unbiased. This article, for example, is less about Pre's improvements over the iphone, and more about making excuses for Apple.



    How nice would it be to be able to run what I want on my iphone instead of having Apple tell me what I can run? How nice would it be for an article published by Apple Insider to not make excuses for Apple in this regard?



    This place is a joke.
  • Reply 111 of 212
    addaboxaddabox Posts: 12,664member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by chronster View Post


    I actually registered to post this.



    Now, I know this is the APPLE insider, but every time I read an article here it's like trying to get news from mad magazine or fox. I don't see why you can't be just honest and unbiased. This article, for example, is less about Pre's improvements over the iphone, and more about making excuses for Apple.



    How nice would it be to be able to run what I want on my iphone instead of having Apple tell me what I can run? How nice would it be for an article published by Apple Insider to not make excuses for Apple in this regard?



    This place is a joke.



    Well friend, in that you felt obliged to register on this site just so you could tell us how foolish we are, I would say that it you that are the joke.
  • Reply 112 of 212
    rayconraycon Posts: 33member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by iLad View Post


    The iPhone sucks pure and simple and is being funded by idiots with non existent standards with a me too, narcissistic complex. A generation of media brainwashed zombies.



    It's a bit difficult to push your opinion when you insult others, the way you have. If I had a "me, too" personality, I would have bought a PC.



    Quote:
    Originally Posted by iLad View Post


    Or when i call the roadside assistance folks, i'm able to talk and pull up all the vin number and info they need all from my address book and open up other apps for more information.



    I can access other applications when I'm using the iPhone. I put on the speaker, press the home button, and choose the application I want. I'm a nurse practitioner and frequently need to look up medications while I'm talking to nurses. When I'm done looking them up, I tap the top of the touchscreen and return to the phone interface. It's never been a problem.



    Quote:
    Originally Posted by iLad View Post


    If there is a malware issue, then there will be companies to make anti-malware software.



    Seriously? What if your phone gets bricked when you need to make an emergency call?



    Quote:
    Originally Posted by iLad View Post


    The only thing my Treo does not do well and is lacking is its browser.



    A good reason to get an iPhone.



    Quote:
    Originally Posted by iLad View Post


    What BS from Apple, they just don't have the skill or engineering know how. All they do well is sell bright shiny, expensive, backward nonsense gobbled up by a genration of mindless, no standards zombies who are pitifully trying to act cool, self important and sophisticated.



    There you go again with the insults, but to say that Apple doesn't have the skill or engineering know-how sounds like you pulled one out of Steve Ballmer's notebook



    Quote:
    Originally Posted by iLad View Post


    Until they become a legitimate smartphone and start playing with the big boys (money has nothing to do with qualifying to play with the big boys of tech), i'm not buying one. I may just move to the PRE.



    From everything I read, Apple is certainly one OF the big boys.
  • Reply 113 of 212
    tenobelltenobell Posts: 7,014member
    What evidence shows they are simply excuses. You should present proof and evidence that backs up the assertion that Apple should do things differently than they are. So far the iPhone has been a success, what evidence is there that Apple should have done things any different?



    Quote:
    Originally Posted by chronster View Post




    Now, I know this is the APPLE insider, but every time I read an article here it's like trying to get news from mad magazine or fox. I don't see why you can't be just honest and unbiased. This article, for example, is less about Pre's improvements over the iphone, and more about making excuses for Apple.



    How nice would it be to be able to run what I want on my iphone instead of having Apple tell me what I can run? How nice would it be for an article published by Apple Insider to not make excuses for Apple in this regard?



    This place is a joke.



  • Reply 114 of 212
    chronsterchronster Posts: 1,894member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by addabox View Post


    Well friend, in that you felt obliged to register on this site just so you could tell us how foolish we are, I would say that it you that are the joke.



    registration took all of 20 seconds.



    Appleinsider is constantly shown in news links through google, as if it's an unbiased source of information. It's a joke plain and simple.



    Quote:
    Originally Posted by TenoBell View Post


    What evidence shows they are simply excuses. You should present proof and evidence that backs up the assertion that Apple should do things differently than they are. So far the iPhone has been a success, what evidence is there that Apple should have done things any different?



    Talk to any developer who's app has been denied by Apple.



    Have fun being told what you can and can't do with something you "own."
  • Reply 115 of 212
    solipsismsolipsism Posts: 25,726member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by chronster View Post


    Talk to any developer who's app has been denied by Apple.



    Have fun being told what you can and can't do with something you "own."



    There is no need to resort to lying if you can't win your argument through worthwhile rhetoric. Anyone who is part of the iPhone developer program can create an app and put it on their iPhone(s) and/or iPod Touch(es) to use and test. Apple will not prevent this in any way shape or form regardless of the app you create. What Apple won't allow is for you to sell your App through their store if it violates the rules you agreed with prior to DLing and signing up for their SDK. It's their store, they have the right, just as any store has a right to choose what wares it sells to its customers. By your argument, Larry Flint should be able to force any place that sells magazines and video to sell his merchandise simply because he created magazines and videos, too. In a free market, a retailer has the right to choose what image it wishes to portray. You don't have to agree with it, but you do have to accept it.
  • Reply 116 of 212
    tenobelltenobell Posts: 7,014member
    What does this have to do with the Pre or making excuses for Apple?



    You have to understand the difference between what you own and what is licensed for use. You've bought and own the iPhone hardware, you can do with that whatever you want.



    You've bought a license to use the iPhone OS, you have agreed under contact to use it under Apple's terms of use.



    If you don't want to agree to those terms you don't have to use the iPhone.



    Quote:
    Originally Posted by chronster View Post


    Talk to any developer who's app has been denied by Apple.



    Have fun being told what you can and can't do with something you "own."



  • Reply 117 of 212
    addaboxaddabox Posts: 12,664member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by chronster View Post


    registration took all of 20 seconds.



    Appleinsider is constantly shown in news links through google,



    Yeah? So? What do you care? Do you seek out the origins of every news link on Google that you think is biased and chastise them?



    Quote:

    as if it's an unbiased source of information.



    You'd have to take that up with how Google weights its results, don't you think? Or do you imagine the vile fan boys at AI are smuggling their lies past Google's filters?



    Quote:

    It's a joke plain and simple.



    Again, you're the one who is so incensed by being apparently obliged to read things you disagree with on the internets that you have to go forth and belittle them.



    Which is the very definition of a joke.



    Quote:

    Talk to any developer who's app has been denied by Apple.



    I guess I could, but I might have trouble finding one: Apple approves 96% of the apps submitted, and there are tens of thousands of them.



    So maybe you should talk to some of the people making shitloads of money.



    Quote:

    Have fun being told what you can and can't do with something you "own."



    OK. You have fun tracking down everybody on the internet who's wrong.
  • Reply 118 of 212
    solipsismsolipsism Posts: 25,726member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by addabox View Post


    I guess I could, but I might have trouble finding one: Apple approves 96% of the apps submitted, and there are tens of thousands of them.



    So maybe you should talk to some of the people making shitloads of money.



    How many programs are there for Palm? Does anyone know?



    If the platform is so good for developers since there are no limitations and Palm has been allowing 3rd-party apps for a lot longer than the 9 months Apple's store has been around then the number of 3rd-party Palm apps should easily trump the number of programs on App Store.
  • Reply 119 of 212
    I feel compelled to say this again: there is an easy way that Apple could address at least some, if not the majority, of user needs for "multitasking" if they simply allowed developers to plug into the three backgrounding apps you already have, Phone, SMS and iPod.



    If, for instance, Skype could plug the VOIP side of their application into Phone, then all of the features people want Skype to have instantly appear. Since Phone is always running, it would keep you logged into Skype and thereby allow incoming calls at any time. It would also mean you could exit your conversation to use other apps, not get kicked off when another call comes in, and lets you use a single interface for all your calling duties.



    Likewise, Skype's chat side should be plugged into the SMS app, which is already on its way to being renamed "Messages". Pandora would plug into iPod.



    Yes, this would not solve problems with things like loopd, but it would still solve a LOT of problems with practically zero cost.



    Maury
  • Reply 120 of 212
    shadowshadow Posts: 373member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Maury Markowitz View Post


    I feel compelled to say this again: there is an easy way that Apple could address at least some, if not the majority, of user needs for "multitasking" if they simply allowed developers to plug into the three backgrounding apps you already have, Phone, SMS and iPod.



    If, for instance, Skype could plug the VOIP side of their application into Phone, then all of the features people want Skype to have instantly appear. Since Phone is always running, it would keep you logged into Skype and thereby allow incoming calls at any time. It would also mean you could exit your conversation to use other apps, not get kicked off when another call comes in, and lets you use a single interface for all your calling duties.



    Likewise, Skype's chat side should be plugged into the SMS app, which is already on its way to being renamed "Messages". Pandora would plug into iPod.



    Yes, this would not solve problems with things like loopd, but it would still solve a LOT of problems with practically zero cost.



    Maury



    Apple already addressed the problems of Skype-like applications with iPhone OS 3.0. Those apps do not need to be running if they get a notification when they need it. There are applications that can't benefit from this. In many cases they do not need to run in the background as well, but receive notifications on location change, by a timer etc.



    It is important to understand that that:
    • iPhone OS IS a multitasking OS

    • Apple's decision to disallow the always running applications for third parties is not done to intentionally abuse the user, neither it is made by idiots. Most of the people on this boards don't have the expertise to discuss whether it is the right decision or not. It is definitely a compromise and it is perfectly OK to complain regarding distinct user experience problems but not theorize on the matter without deeper understanding of the real problems.

    • Whether the Pre design decisions and implementation are better than Apple's remain to be seen. Don't go too far with your conclusions when comparing a future product with a one year old (I would say almost two years old, in terms of processor and part of the hardware) product. Hold off your final judgment untill the Pre and the next iPhone actually ship.

    • Everyone seems obsessed by the couple of possible but unproven advantages of the Pre/WebOS and don't see a number of obvious advantages of the old iPhone versus the future Pre.

    • Even if the Pre turns out to be a superior device running a superior operating system, Palm will have hard time winning against Apple.

    The advantages of the current iPhone against the yet-to-be released Pre are numerous, staring with the OpenGL ES/game development support, external device support (with iPhone OS 3.0), excellent syncing with the main computer via Mobile Me service (at least from the point of view of a mac user), mature developer tools and huge developer following, huge number of avilable applications, huge accessories ecosystem etc. etc. etc



    Even some of the advertised Pre advantages are questionable. Could the hardware keyboard change it's style from enter-e-mail-style to enter-URL-style to Search/Nexr/Return button, to say nothing of the localization. You know, the US-only keyboard sucks for the majority of the world. Palm may ned to release localized versions at least for some countries, but that is yet another production/inventory problem they will need to manage.
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