The cost of the players. Since Apple needs 9.5mm drives they will cost Apple considerably more for slower players for their entire Mac line, sans the Mac Pro and potentially the external drive used by MBA as there isn't a real height constraint that prevents them from using a 12.5mm drive However, even the 12.5mm drives, which are the thinnest ones on the market currently that I can find, are still cost prohibitive compared to the thick tray loading drives found in other notebook PCs. It's not like Apple would be charging less than these 3rd-party resellers as Apple will be supporting the HW and include their "Apple tax."
I understand that Apple doesn't have to make their notebooks so thin, but that is what they do and I doubt they will change that to allow an option that will be purchased by very few. I think that Apple wants to pull people from the slow read/writes and high cost per MB, large component size of optical media. I think they will stick with DVD until they can drop optical media all together. If they include it I think it will have to an external drive, and even then I think it would have to merely supported for HDCP and not an actual Apple-branded product. Can HDCP even be routed over USB?
No excuse as to why my new Mac Pro doesn't come with one, when my old Pro Audio model came with the Pioneer DVD writer, which cost $1,000 by itself. That Pioneer is closer to $1,200 in todays prices, while you can get Blu-Ray writers now for under $300, and the fastest 8x models for $500—retail.
I want Safari's snap-back feature back. It's such a great thing and very overlooked!
It's worth the extra wait to download the Combo Updater.
Two things: I don't for sure understand the snap-back feature, but it is still there. It only seems to work after doing a Google search. I seem to recall it worked in the address line area as well, but now it is only in the Google search area. The other thing is Safari versus Firefox. If I type AOL, Safari takes me to AOL.com. Do the same thing in Firefox and I get a list of search results. I am not so fond of the new Safari as it is starting to look like a Windows app. That would be one of the drawbacks to Firefox as well. Mac apps should look like Mac apps.
the update is ready but Apple is waiting till Monday/Tuesday to release it as previous updates.
no sense in them releasing it on Friday right? Make us wait two more days! Nice Apple.
Geez, god forbid they actually fix the memory leak that stops me from using my camera's live view on saturday so I can actually get some work done during the weekend while I have time.
Geez, god forbid they actually fix the memory leak that stops me from using my camera's live view on saturday so I can actually get some work done during the weekend while I have time.
Yeah, cause now that italiankid has told you that Apple is just sitting on it, you can be sure that must be true and it's time once again to get indignant!
Two things: I don't for sure understand the snap-back feature, but it is still there. It only seems to work after doing a Google search. I seem to recall it worked in the address line area as well, but now it is only in the Google search area.
Snap-Back.
So, you go to a web site and start drilling in. You realize that you hit a dead-end or are lost. Instead of clicking and holding the back button to try to figure out where you are, hit Snap-Back and you're taken to the FIRST page on the site (the one you typed the URL for or triggered a bookmark).
Simple, quick and I miss it EVERY day!
Apple REALLY needs to let people know about features that are built-in! Simplicity is one thing. Obscuring great features and making them nearly impossible to find is just dumb.
No excuse as to why my new Mac Pro doesn't come with one, when my old Pro Audio model came with the Pioneer DVD writer, which cost $1,000 by itself. That Pioneer is closer to $1,200 in todays prices, while you can get Blu-Ray writers now for under $300, and the fastest 8x models for $500?retail.
The ONLY reason is that they don't want to.
If you need it, buy it. There ARE two optical drive bays in newer MacPros, correct?
There are lots of things I've had to buy that Apple will never build-in. It's just the way it is.
No excuse as to why my new Mac Pro doesn't come with one, when my old Pro Audio model came with the Pioneer DVD writer, which cost $1,000 by itself. That Pioneer is closer to $1,200 in todays prices, while you can get Blu-Ray writers now for under $300, and the fastest 8x models for $500—retail.
The ONLY reason is that they don't want to.
There is an excuse and you mention it in your last sentence. But why wouldn't they want to offer it in their Mac Pro? I can think of a couple reasons off the top of my head.
— If they offer it their, I assume, lowest selling Mac others will expect them to offer it in all their other Macs, which I stated just isn't a viable option with 12.5mm drives being cost prohibitive and 9.5mm drives being non-existent at this time.
— Apple sees Blu-ray as a dead-end tech and plans to get rid of optical drives as soon as possibly can (I know we disagree on this point, to put it mildly). They are pushing downloads as the next media format for video. We know their HD not even close as Blu-ray, but neither was their 128Kbps audio as good as CD Audio. I think they are banking on the convenience aspect again.
So I think we have an issue the technology not being available for Apple and Apple pushing the envelope with going in the future a little quickly compared to others. I don't see Apple ever offering Blu-ray in their Mac Pros until they have secured their online videos position and until the Mac notebooks lose their optical drives. Like Jeff Harris stated, you can always buy your own and I'm sure it's cheaper from 3rd-party than would be from Apple.
If you need it, buy it. There ARE two optical drive bays in newer MacPros, correct?
There are lots of things I've had to buy that Apple will never build-in. It's just the way it is.
Jeff, in your rush to rebuke me, you're not understanding the point here.
Its not whether we can buy a Blu-Ray writer. That's not a problem.
It's the fact that Apple isn't supporting Blu-Ray movie PLAYBACK. That's the problem.
If Apple supplied a BD writer, or even a player as an option, then they would also be supporting movie playback, because it's hard to believe they would give the player and not support that.
It's the fact that Apple isn't supporting Blu-Ray movie PLAYBACK. That's the problem.
If Apple supplied a BD writer, or even a player as an option, then they would also be supporting movie playback, because it's hard to believe they would give the player and not support that.
If the HW supports HDCP I thought you could now use an Blu-ray drive that supported HDCP with 4rd-party software for playing back videos. What does Apple have to do to the OS to allow 3rd-party Blu-ray players to run?
There is an excuse and you mention it in your last sentence. But why wouldn't they want to offer it in their Mac Pro? I can think of a couple reasons off the top of my head.
— If they offer it their, I assume, lowest selling Mac others will expect them to offer it in all their other Macs, which I stated just isn't a viable option with 12.5mm drives being cost prohibitive and 9.5mm drives being non-existent at this time.
— Apple sees Blu-ray as a dead-end tech and plans to get rid of optical drives as soon as possibly can (I know we disagree on this point, to put it mildly). They are pushing downloads as the next media format for video. We know their HD not even close as Blu-ray, but neither was their 128Kbps audio as good as CD Audio. I think they are banking on the convenience aspect again.
So I think we have an issue the technology not being available for Apple and Apple pushing the envelope with going in the future a little quickly compared to others. I don't see Apple ever offering Blu-ray in their Mac Pros until they have secured their online videos position and until the Mac notebooks lose their optical drives. Like Jeff Harris stated, you can always buy your own and I'm sure it's cheaper from 3rd-party than would be from Apple.
First of all, I think that Apple will be forced to supply it at some point. Now that the "problems" that Jobs was complaining about have gone away, he has no excuse left that he can offer the public. Once that happens he can keep silent, angering most people even more as they now see no reason for its being left out, or he can go public with some other excuse, which I can't even find. Or, he can finally give in and offer it.
To say that he will have no choice but to give it to everyone else if he puts it into the Mac Pro isn't one of those good excuses he might try to find. When he included the DVD writer in the Digital Audio model, it was in just the top offering. It wasn't offered to lesser models until later, when prices dropped considerably. That makes sense.
Prices are far lower for BD writers now than they were for the DVD writer back then of course, as are disk prices. Still, Apple can wait to give it to other machines.
But, giving support to BD playback in the OS and hardware will allow people to buy external models if they want them. You can get a BD combo drive for $150 if you look around.
While he may not want to give in here because of their downloads business, something I've been saying as well, I really don't think they will have a choice.
The BD technology won't be going away anytime soon. First is that 4k movie technology is capable of being pressed into a dual layer BD disk, so this technology is somewhat obsolescent proof. Secondly, having 25 to 50 GB of offline, pretty safe storage, is a good jump from dual layer 8.7 GB DVD storage. Thirdly, write and read performance is improving quickly, with the latest writers doing so a 8x speeds with 6 x disks. I've read that we will see 10 and 12 speed machines around the end of the year. Fourthly, both the writer and disks are coming down in price fairly rapidly, more quickly than it did either for CD or DVD.
We can see what happened to DVD writer prices, and we will see the same happen to BD writer prices. The same goes for disk prices. By the end of the year, we'll likely see writer prices consistently below $200, and disk prices for 25 GB below $4 for single disks, and $2.50 per disk for packages of spindled 25 disk packages.
I think that a point you're missing is that while there are advantages to going BD, other than price right now, there are no disadvantages.
If the HW supports HDCP I thought you could now use an Blu-ray drive that supported HDCP with 4rd-party software for playing back videos. What does Apple have to do to the OS to allow 3rd-party Blu-ray players to run?
I don't know the particulars, so I can't give you that answer, but they must do something to support the format. They may also have to do something to enable HDCP support for it. I don't know if having HDCP support for their own products is enough.
For Windows, which does have BD support in the OS in Vista, there are a number of programs that enable movie playback. That software is included with every player/recorder sold, even if MS's own media software doesn't do it yet.
There are no counterparts in the Mac world because there is no OS support. That's all I really know. I suppose we can Google it, but I'm too lazy to do that now.
First of all, I think that Apple will be forced to supply it at some point. Now that the "problems" that Jobs was complaining about have gone away, he has no excuse left that he can offer the public.
But I don't think all the major problems are gone. The licensing and HDCP are in check but those aren't the most pressing issues, just the most pressed issues.
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When he included the DVD writer in the Digital Audio model, it was in just the top offering. It wasn't offered to lesser models until later, when prices dropped considerably. That makes sense.
I see a major difference here. I don't recall cheap notebooks and desktops from Dell having that as an option. At this point, if Apple does include it in the Mac Pro they will have plenty of people wondering why they don't have [9.5mm] BRDs in their MacBooks, MacBook Pros, iMacs and Mac Minis, when they see that all other computers costing half as much as a base price have the option.
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Prices are far lower for BD writers now than they were for the DVD writer back then of course, as are disk prices. Still, Apple can wait to give it to other machines.
For the large notebook-grade tray-loading drives, yes, but Apple doesn't use those. While Apple would get the best price for any ulta-thin slot loading BRDs they still couldn't be sold close to what these other drives cost. Not unless Apple takes a dive on the profits for this option, which is not likely. I just don't see the marketing path Apple could take, even if 9.5mm drives are available.
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But, giving support to BD playback in the OS and hardware will allow people to buy external models if they want them. You can get a BD combo drive for $150 if you,look around.
This I do agree with. Let Apple support it in its minimalist form in the OS and HW and then let 3rd-party BRD makers and 3rd-party BR apps make their way onto Macs. That is the only viable option I've seen so far, but I think that Apple is really pushing online downloads for computers and keeping the BR appliances for your home theater.
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The BD technology won't be going away anytime soon. First is that 4k movie technology is capable of being pressed into a dual layer BD disk, so this technology is somewhat obsolescent proof. Secondly, having 25 to 50 GB of offline, pretty safe storage, is a good jump from dual layer 8.7 GB DVD storage. Thirdly, write and read performance is improving quickly, with the latest writers doing so a 8x speeds with 6 x disks. I've read that we will see 10 and 12 speed machines around the end of the year. Fourthly, both the writer and disks are coming down in price fairly rapidly, more quickly than it did either for CD or DVD.
I think in under 4 years that NAND will hold a better cost-per-GB than optical media. On top of that it will considerably faster. The only real benefit that optical media will always have is its resistance to EMPs so it can make for a good backup option. But that can be done now with any BRD connected to a Mac.
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I think that a point you're missing is that while there are advantages to going BD, other than price right now, there are no disadvantages.
I think it's more than just cost, it's also its gnashing against Apple's business model. We know Apple doesn't like to give the customer a plethora of options to choose from. Often, it's really for the best, abut sometimes it's just to push their own profitable agenda. It for this reason I don't think we'll see it until Apple has a solid future in digital video downloads (maybe when the AppleTV is no longer a hobby).
If Apple plans to ad Blu-ray support to Snow Leopard I think the last chance will be at the WWDC keynote demo. They could add it at any time, but the only reason I can see to hold off adding it to the SL betas is to make it part of the announcement.
For the sake of everyone who wants an Apple-supported BRD that will natively play protected BR video in protected H.264/AVC-HP or AVCHD and VC-1 or SMPTE 421M (I can't keep up with the nomenclature) I hope that I am absolutely and completely wrong on this subject.
Apple sees Blu-ray as a dead-end tech and plans to get rid of optical drives as soon as possibly can (I know we disagree on this point, to put it mildly). They are pushing downloads as the next media format for video. We know their HD not even close as Blu-ray, but neither was their 128Kbps audio as good as CD Audio. I think they are banking on the convenience aspect again.
So I think we have an issue the technology not being available for Apple and Apple pushing the envelope with going in the future a little quickly compared to others. I don't see Apple ever offering Blu-ray in their Mac Pros until they have secured their online videos position and until the Mac notebooks lose their optical drives.
Actually, Apple and Steve Jobs have said that they have issues with the licensing and licensing fees of the Blu-ray group. Supposedly, they've recently lowered their fees and requirements.
And seriously, currently there simply isn't enough bandwidth to allow for Full-HD downloads in a reasonable timeframe. Until there is a MAJOR network upgrade that will allow for Full-HD downloads, Blu-ray will remain a viable, convenient and collectable media. Right now and for the foreseeable future.
Even when the network capacity has been upgraded, there will remain a need for archival quality backups. Blu-ray and it's 50GB per disk capacity fits the bill here as well. hard drives break and SSD's are WAY too expensive to use for a media library. So, it still points to Blu-ray. Lots of people LIKE to have real media to look at, handle and collect. I don't care about a video library, but I'm fanatical about my music library... nearing 4000 CDs.
As more and more people buy Full-HD TVs (and computer monitors that support 1920 x 1080 screen resolution) there will be a GROWING desire to see MORE Full-HD content. 720 res just won't cut it.
When I got a 1080p TV, I was content with standard def cable TV broadcasts for a while. As I lived with it, I watched more and more 1080i broadcasts and fewer Standard programming (I watch movies and NHL games mainly). Gradually, my upsampling DVD player started to lose it's allure and I bought a Blu-ray player. NOW I'll wait for Netflix to deliver Blu-ray disks. For me, it's worth it.
Go to a friend's house who has a Full-HDTV and Blu-ray player, then watch the Planet Earth series on Blu-ray. You won't want to go back to anything less than Full-HD.
I don't know the particulars, so I can't give you that answer, but they must do something to support the format. They may also have to do something to enable HDCP support for it. I don't know if having HDCP support for their own products is enough.
For Windows, which does have BD support in the OS in Vista, there are a number of programs that enable movie playback. That software is included with every player/recorder sold, even if MS's own media software doesn't do it yet.
There are no counterparts in the Mac world because there is no OS support. That's all I really know. I suppose we can Google it, but I'm too lazy to do that now.
I wonder if it can it be supported with an OS level codec or does it have to use the codecs built into the chipset that I dont' think Apple pays for or has active in regards to VC-1. Could that be a cavet for Apple and others wanting to make a 3rd-party app? I'm too lazy to look into it, too.
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Originally Posted by jeffharris
And seriously, currently there simply isn't enough bandwidth to allow for Full-HD downloads in a reasonable timeframe. Until there is a MAJOR network upgrade that will allow for Full-HD downloads, Blu-ray will remain a viable, convenient and collectable media. Right now and for the foreseeable future.
Full-HD will ever be sliding. You can say that 720p isn't full HD, but by previous definitions it is high definition when it was conceived. Beyond that, even if Apple offered 1080p it still wouldn't match anything Blu-ray or HD-DVD could do because the bitrate would be too low. But I don't think that is as big an issue as you might think. As Apple has shown with 128Kbps audio without nifty CD liners, that most people are fine with "good enough". While there was the benefit with iTunes Store of just buying the tracks you wanted instead of a whole CD, I think that "good enough" will work for many people, especially when it has the benefit of being vastly more convenient to most.
That is not to say that Blu-ray doesn't have its place. It will do well and I think it will dominate over DVD rentals and sales within 2.5 years, but I think it will be the last real optical standard. Though that isn't saying much as the format has plenty of growing room within itself.
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Even when the network capacity has been upgraded, there will remain a need for archival quality backups. Blu-ray and it's 50GB per disk capacity fits the bill here as well. hard drives break and SSD's are WAY too expensive to use for a media library. So, it still points to Blu-ray. Lots of people LIKE to have real media to look at, handle and collect. I don't care about a video library, but I'm fanatical about my music library... nearing 4000 CDs.
And you can do backups on Blu-ray now if you want. It's still much too expensive for most and HDDs have proven cheap enough and reliable enough to suit most people's needs. I can get a RAIDed backup system that is faster and considerably cheaper than Blu-ray. Outside of an EM pulse your golden. But convenience usually wins in the end. Most people don't do backups, which makes Time Machine a workable system, and I don't see the average consumer purposely sticking in Blu-ray disc they bought for $ at buy.com to make a periodic system backup. It just won't happen.
I'm an OS X developer and I don't use DL-DVDs to install Snow Leopard. I just move it to a partition and do the install in 5 minutes without wasting a DL-DVD, which always failed more often than I liked. That is less time than it takes to burn the disc, muchless verify it and then install it from disc.
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As more and more people buy Full-HD TVs (and computer monitors that support 1920 x 1080 screen resolution) there will be a GROWING desire to see MORE Full-HD content. 720 res just won't cut it.
I think you underestimate most people's innate laziness and cheapness. Having the latest tech is great, but not when the cost doesn't outweigh the perceived benefits. Sure, some will think that Monster cables being technically better is worth the extra money and that having the best Blu-ray player with the best HDTV that has come out that year is the only way to watch a movie. But only id that movie was filmed with the appropriate camera, but that isn't most people.
Having a BR appliance on their HDTV for their Netflix account does not mean that all DVD players in their computers have to be replaced with BRDs. I can't see people thinking that. I like my HD content but I also like my SD content that I watch on my iPhone, which is more often that not as I travel constantly. Today, I'm in upstate NY, I have a good cell signal, though no 3G. Luckily I have 5 episodes of Lost to catch up on.
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When I got a 1080p TV, I was content with standard def cable TV broadcasts for a while. As I lived with it, I watched more and more 1080i broadcasts and fewer Standard programming (I watch movies and NHL games mainly). Gradually, my upsampling DVD player started to lose it's allure and I bought a Blu-ray player. NOW I'll wait for Netflix to deliver Blu-ray disks. For me, it's worth it.
Go to a friend's house who has a Full-HDTV and Blu-ray player, then watch the Planet Earth series on Blu-ray. You won't want to go back to anything less than Full-HD.
I'm fully aware for of the "minimal acceptable experience" increase that occurs with new tech, but that isn't an overnight thing and it isn't everyone at once. There are still people that use VHS tapes to record shows! Blu-ray is worth it for many people I know. I'm not saying that "it's not as good as people say" or that "an upscaling DVD is as just as good", I'm saying that 1) it takes time which gives online distributers a chance to get their convenience option in place, which is what I think Apple is doing; and, 2) because it's well suited for a 50" 1080p TV for your home theater doesn't mean it's well suited for a 13" MacBook, Apple's biggest seller. But I relentlessly want the whole optical drive removed so anything more than an external solution for a BRD in a Mac notebook is a disaster, IMO.
But I don't think all the major problems are gone. The licensing and HDCP are in check but those aren't the most pressing issues, just the most pressed issues.
The only issues that Jobs said he was concerned with were the licensing issues, and those are now gone. The licensing can now be done through one entity, rather than several, and the total fee has been dropped. If every consumer electronics concern was able to negotiate their way around the older licensing problems, as I said earlier, Apple could have done so as well.
There are no other major problems associated with BD.
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I see a major difference here. I don't recall cheap notebooks and desktops from Dell having that as an option. At this point, if Apple does include it in the Mac Pro they will have plenty of people wondering why they don't have [9.5mm] BRDs in their MacBooks, MacBook Pros, iMacs and Mac Minis, when they see that all other computers costing half as much as a base price have the option.
This has nothing to do with cheap notebooks. This has everything to do with having support in the OS.
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For the large notebook-grade tray-loading drives, yes, but Apple doesn't use those. While Apple would get the best price for any ulta-thin slot loading BRDs they still couldn't be sold close to what these other drives cost. Not unless Apple takes a dive on the profits for this option, which is not likely. I just don't see the marketing path Apple could take, even if 9.5mm drives are available.
Again, this has nothing to do with any of that. It's simply an issue of OS support. Everything else will follow from that.
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This I do agree with. Let Apple support it in its minimalist form in the OS and HW and then let 3rd-party BRD makers and 3rd-party BR apps make their way onto Macs. That is the only viable option I've seen so far, but I think that Apple is really pushing online downloads for computers and keeping the BR appliances for your home theater.
Apple must support this in the OS. There is no such thing as minimalist support. They either support it or not.
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I think in under 4 years that NAND will hold a better cost-per-GB than optical media. On top of that it will considerably faster. The only real benefit that optical media will always have is its resistance to EMPs so it can make for a good backup option. But that can be done now with any BRD connected to a Mac.
I don't see companies offering content on flash. I wouldn't want to try a permanent backup on flash. That's not a good idea, as flash isn't intended for that, and isn't considered to be reliable for long terms.
Someday, and that could be a while off, we will have something to supplant disks. No one would argue that. But there are technologies that are being worked on now that won't see the commercial light of day for perhaps ten years. There's nothing else on the horizon right now.
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I think it's more than just cost, it's also its gnashing against Apple's business model. We know Apple doesn't like to give the customer a plethora of options to choose from. Often, it's really for the best, abut sometimes it's just to push their own profitable agenda. It for this reason I don't think we'll see it until Apple has a solid future in digital video downloads (maybe when the AppleTV is no longer a hobby).
Look, this is an argument that we've both agreed on, at least for the short term. Apple is hesitating because they really don't want to offer something they think will possibly hurt their download business. I disagree that it will. I also think that's a mistake, because I think that unlike music and apps, their movie and Tv download business is unsustainable in the long haul anyway. We're beginning to see a much wider venue for these Tv shows and movies on the internet. The high cost pay model is doomed in the long run.
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If Apple plans to ad Blu-ray support to Snow Leopard I think the last chance will be at the WWDC keynote demo. They could add it at any time, but the only reason I can see to hold off adding it to the SL betas is to make it part of the announcement.
Like you say, they can add it at any time. They might even prefer to slip it in quietly, rather than make a big deal about it. Hard to say.
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For the sake of everyone who wants an Apple-supported BRD that will natively play protected BR video in protected H.264/AVC-HP or AVCHD and VC-1 or SMPTE 421M (I can't keep up with the nomenclature) I hope that I am absolutely and completely wrong on this subject.
I think it has to happen, or Apple will be giving up sales to the PC industry that there is no reason they shouldn't have.
To a lessor extent, this is like the gaming issue. Way back, when the Mac was called a toy by all the PC-DOS wielding boys, I could understand why Apple shied away from games, even though Macs would have been much better game machines than PC's. But as the industry shifted more to consumer sales (partly thanks to Apple supplying CD players in Macs before anyone else did in large numbers) in the mid '90's, that reason was no more. But Apple still never "got it". Even Jobs never go it. This has held back the Macs sales more than any other reason. I can't even count how many people over the years bought PC's rather than Macs ONLY because of games. It's still happening!
While BD isn't such a contentious issue, it's becoming more of one as time goes on. People ask me why they can't get a Mac with BD. I don't really know what to say. If I tell them the entire truth, they look away in disgust, and that's the end of the Mac for them now, and possibly forever. If I just give them Jobs' reasons as stated, they want to know when they will be able to buy a Mac with one, and I can't answer that.
For me, the only real reason why I would have liked to see BD offered for my Mac Pro would have been as the indication that Apple had given in, and supported it.
But I would be happier if they just announce support, because then I could buy any BD writer (as long as they don't do what they did with CD and DVD writers over many years of only having support for the ones they supplied in their machines) that was better spec'd that Apple's own.
I wonder if it can it be supported with an OS level codec or does it have to use the codecs built into the chipset that I dont' think Apple pays for or has active in regards to VC-1. Could that be a cavet for Apple and others wanting to make a 3rd-party app? I'm too lazy to look into it, too.
I don't know, and it doesn't matter. As long as it's Apple that has to do it, we have to wait for them.
I don't know, and it doesn't matter. As long as it's Apple that has to do it, we have to wait for them.
I think it does matter. Without knowing the particulars of where the chain is broken we don't have much to work with. I found this link which points to BR movies being playable on a Mac Pro using their drive when running Windows natively. This cancels the HW issue.
Blu-ray Movie Playback on your Mac
As of now, playback of Blu-ray movies is not yet available under Mac OS X. There is simply no software yet that will do that. This situation will likely change very quickly. You can, however, with the software provided, playback commercial Blu-ray movies on your Mac Pro with Apple's Boot Camp running Windows XP or Vista. You will need to make sure to download the latest graphics drivers from either Nvidia or ATI, depending on your graphics card, in order to ensure smooth playback of high definition Blu-ray movies as you've never seen them before on your Mac.
Licensing is simplified and less costly, but is less costly and simply enough for Apple now? What the main reason or just a good one to talk about because it easily puts the blame elsewhere? Will having Blu-ray drives in only the Mac Pros really be enough for the vocal public?
Finally, can HDCP work over HDCP so external drives can be included (I'll look this one up)? A: Apparently it's been proposed but I can't find any info on the progress, if it requires HW changes of just firmware changes.
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The cost of the players. Since Apple needs 9.5mm drives they will cost Apple considerably more for slower players for their entire Mac line, sans the Mac Pro and potentially the external drive used by MBA as there isn't a real height constraint that prevents them from using a 12.5mm drive However, even the 12.5mm drives, which are the thinnest ones on the market currently that I can find, are still cost prohibitive compared to the thick tray loading drives found in other notebook PCs. It's not like Apple would be charging less than these 3rd-party resellers as Apple will be supporting the HW and include their "Apple tax."
I understand that Apple doesn't have to make their notebooks so thin, but that is what they do and I doubt they will change that to allow an option that will be purchased by very few. I think that Apple wants to pull people from the slow read/writes and high cost per MB, large component size of optical media. I think they will stick with DVD until they can drop optical media all together. If they include it I think it will have to an external drive, and even then I think it would have to merely supported for HDCP and not an actual Apple-branded product. Can HDCP even be routed over USB?
No excuse as to why my new Mac Pro doesn't come with one, when my old Pro Audio model came with the Pioneer DVD writer, which cost $1,000 by itself. That Pioneer is closer to $1,200 in todays prices, while you can get Blu-Ray writers now for under $300, and the fastest 8x models for $500—retail.
The ONLY reason is that they don't want to.
Safari has done that for quite a while.
I want Safari's snap-back feature back. It's such a great thing and very overlooked!
It's worth the extra wait to download the Combo Updater.
Two things: I don't for sure understand the snap-back feature, but it is still there. It only seems to work after doing a Google search. I seem to recall it worked in the address line area as well, but now it is only in the Google search area. The other thing is Safari versus Firefox. If I type AOL, Safari takes me to AOL.com. Do the same thing in Firefox and I get a list of search results. I am not so fond of the new Safari as it is starting to look like a Windows app. That would be one of the drawbacks to Firefox as well. Mac apps should look like Mac apps.
no sense in them releasing it on Friday right? Make us wait two more days! Nice Apple.
the update is ready but Apple is waiting till Monday/Tuesday to release it as previous updates.
no sense in them releasing it on Friday right? Make us wait two more days! Nice Apple.
Geez, god forbid they actually fix the memory leak that stops me from using my camera's live view on saturday so I can actually get some work done during the weekend while I have time.
the update is ready but Apple is waiting till Monday/Tuesday to release it as previous updates.
no sense in them releasing it on Friday right? Make us wait two more days! Nice Apple.
Can you share with us your contact within Apple that has told you the update is ready?
Geez, god forbid they actually fix the memory leak that stops me from using my camera's live view on saturday so I can actually get some work done during the weekend while I have time.
Yeah, cause now that italiankid has told you that Apple is just sitting on it, you can be sure that must be true and it's time once again to get indignant!
I received my iMac with ATI's Radeon HD 4850 yesterday and its works fine on 10.5.6.
You're right!
I got my hands on an ATI 4850's equipped iMac today and noticed that it sports Mac OS 10.5.6, build# 9G3610 as opposed to the official build# 9G55.
Cheers!
Aueua!
Two things: I don't for sure understand the snap-back feature, but it is still there. It only seems to work after doing a Google search. I seem to recall it worked in the address line area as well, but now it is only in the Google search area.
Snap-Back.
So, you go to a web site and start drilling in. You realize that you hit a dead-end or are lost. Instead of clicking and holding the back button to try to figure out where you are, hit Snap-Back and you're taken to the FIRST page on the site (the one you typed the URL for or triggered a bookmark).
Simple, quick and I miss it EVERY day!
Apple REALLY needs to let people know about features that are built-in! Simplicity is one thing. Obscuring great features and making them nearly impossible to find is just dumb.
No excuse as to why my new Mac Pro doesn't come with one, when my old Pro Audio model came with the Pioneer DVD writer, which cost $1,000 by itself. That Pioneer is closer to $1,200 in todays prices, while you can get Blu-Ray writers now for under $300, and the fastest 8x models for $500?retail.
The ONLY reason is that they don't want to.
If you need it, buy it. There ARE two optical drive bays in newer MacPros, correct?
There are lots of things I've had to buy that Apple will never build-in. It's just the way it is.
No excuse as to why my new Mac Pro doesn't come with one, when my old Pro Audio model came with the Pioneer DVD writer, which cost $1,000 by itself. That Pioneer is closer to $1,200 in todays prices, while you can get Blu-Ray writers now for under $300, and the fastest 8x models for $500—retail.
The ONLY reason is that they don't want to.
There is an excuse and you mention it in your last sentence. But why wouldn't they want to offer it in their Mac Pro? I can think of a couple reasons off the top of my head. So I think we have an issue the technology not being available for Apple and Apple pushing the envelope with going in the future a little quickly compared to others. I don't see Apple ever offering Blu-ray in their Mac Pros until they have secured their online videos position and until the Mac notebooks lose their optical drives. Like Jeff Harris stated, you can always buy your own and I'm sure it's cheaper from 3rd-party than would be from Apple.
If you need it, buy it. There ARE two optical drive bays in newer MacPros, correct?
There are lots of things I've had to buy that Apple will never build-in. It's just the way it is.
Jeff, in your rush to rebuke me, you're not understanding the point here.
Its not whether we can buy a Blu-Ray writer. That's not a problem.
It's the fact that Apple isn't supporting Blu-Ray movie PLAYBACK. That's the problem.
If Apple supplied a BD writer, or even a player as an option, then they would also be supporting movie playback, because it's hard to believe they would give the player and not support that.
It's the fact that Apple isn't supporting Blu-Ray movie PLAYBACK. That's the problem.
If Apple supplied a BD writer, or even a player as an option, then they would also be supporting movie playback, because it's hard to believe they would give the player and not support that.
If the HW supports HDCP I thought you could now use an Blu-ray drive that supported HDCP with 4rd-party software for playing back videos. What does Apple have to do to the OS to allow 3rd-party Blu-ray players to run?
There is an excuse and you mention it in your last sentence. But why wouldn't they want to offer it in their Mac Pro? I can think of a couple reasons off the top of my head. So I think we have an issue the technology not being available for Apple and Apple pushing the envelope with going in the future a little quickly compared to others. I don't see Apple ever offering Blu-ray in their Mac Pros until they have secured their online videos position and until the Mac notebooks lose their optical drives. Like Jeff Harris stated, you can always buy your own and I'm sure it's cheaper from 3rd-party than would be from Apple.
First of all, I think that Apple will be forced to supply it at some point. Now that the "problems" that Jobs was complaining about have gone away, he has no excuse left that he can offer the public. Once that happens he can keep silent, angering most people even more as they now see no reason for its being left out, or he can go public with some other excuse, which I can't even find. Or, he can finally give in and offer it.
To say that he will have no choice but to give it to everyone else if he puts it into the Mac Pro isn't one of those good excuses he might try to find. When he included the DVD writer in the Digital Audio model, it was in just the top offering. It wasn't offered to lesser models until later, when prices dropped considerably. That makes sense.
Prices are far lower for BD writers now than they were for the DVD writer back then of course, as are disk prices. Still, Apple can wait to give it to other machines.
But, giving support to BD playback in the OS and hardware will allow people to buy external models if they want them. You can get a BD combo drive for $150 if you look around.
While he may not want to give in here because of their downloads business, something I've been saying as well, I really don't think they will have a choice.
The BD technology won't be going away anytime soon. First is that 4k movie technology is capable of being pressed into a dual layer BD disk, so this technology is somewhat obsolescent proof. Secondly, having 25 to 50 GB of offline, pretty safe storage, is a good jump from dual layer 8.7 GB DVD storage. Thirdly, write and read performance is improving quickly, with the latest writers doing so a 8x speeds with 6 x disks. I've read that we will see 10 and 12 speed machines around the end of the year. Fourthly, both the writer and disks are coming down in price fairly rapidly, more quickly than it did either for CD or DVD.
We can see what happened to DVD writer prices, and we will see the same happen to BD writer prices. The same goes for disk prices. By the end of the year, we'll likely see writer prices consistently below $200, and disk prices for 25 GB below $4 for single disks, and $2.50 per disk for packages of spindled 25 disk packages.
I think that a point you're missing is that while there are advantages to going BD, other than price right now, there are no disadvantages.
If the HW supports HDCP I thought you could now use an Blu-ray drive that supported HDCP with 4rd-party software for playing back videos. What does Apple have to do to the OS to allow 3rd-party Blu-ray players to run?
I don't know the particulars, so I can't give you that answer, but they must do something to support the format. They may also have to do something to enable HDCP support for it. I don't know if having HDCP support for their own products is enough.
For Windows, which does have BD support in the OS in Vista, there are a number of programs that enable movie playback. That software is included with every player/recorder sold, even if MS's own media software doesn't do it yet.
There are no counterparts in the Mac world because there is no OS support. That's all I really know. I suppose we can Google it, but I'm too lazy to do that now.
First of all, I think that Apple will be forced to supply it at some point. Now that the "problems" that Jobs was complaining about have gone away, he has no excuse left that he can offer the public.
But I don't think all the major problems are gone. The licensing and HDCP are in check but those aren't the most pressing issues, just the most pressed issues.
When he included the DVD writer in the Digital Audio model, it was in just the top offering. It wasn't offered to lesser models until later, when prices dropped considerably. That makes sense.
I see a major difference here. I don't recall cheap notebooks and desktops from Dell having that as an option. At this point, if Apple does include it in the Mac Pro they will have plenty of people wondering why they don't have [9.5mm] BRDs in their MacBooks, MacBook Pros, iMacs and Mac Minis, when they see that all other computers costing half as much as a base price have the option.
Prices are far lower for BD writers now than they were for the DVD writer back then of course, as are disk prices. Still, Apple can wait to give it to other machines.
For the large notebook-grade tray-loading drives, yes, but Apple doesn't use those. While Apple would get the best price for any ulta-thin slot loading BRDs they still couldn't be sold close to what these other drives cost. Not unless Apple takes a dive on the profits for this option, which is not likely. I just don't see the marketing path Apple could take, even if 9.5mm drives are available.
But, giving support to BD playback in the OS and hardware will allow people to buy external models if they want them. You can get a BD combo drive for $150 if you,look around.
This I do agree with. Let Apple support it in its minimalist form in the OS and HW and then let 3rd-party BRD makers and 3rd-party BR apps make their way onto Macs. That is the only viable option I've seen so far, but I think that Apple is really pushing online downloads for computers and keeping the BR appliances for your home theater.
The BD technology won't be going away anytime soon. First is that 4k movie technology is capable of being pressed into a dual layer BD disk, so this technology is somewhat obsolescent proof. Secondly, having 25 to 50 GB of offline, pretty safe storage, is a good jump from dual layer 8.7 GB DVD storage. Thirdly, write and read performance is improving quickly, with the latest writers doing so a 8x speeds with 6 x disks. I've read that we will see 10 and 12 speed machines around the end of the year. Fourthly, both the writer and disks are coming down in price fairly rapidly, more quickly than it did either for CD or DVD.
I think in under 4 years that NAND will hold a better cost-per-GB than optical media. On top of that it will considerably faster. The only real benefit that optical media will always have is its resistance to EMPs so it can make for a good backup option. But that can be done now with any BRD connected to a Mac.
I think that a point you're missing is that while there are advantages to going BD, other than price right now, there are no disadvantages.
I think it's more than just cost, it's also its gnashing against Apple's business model. We know Apple doesn't like to give the customer a plethora of options to choose from. Often, it's really for the best, abut sometimes it's just to push their own profitable agenda. It for this reason I don't think we'll see it until Apple has a solid future in digital video downloads (maybe when the AppleTV is no longer a hobby).
If Apple plans to ad Blu-ray support to Snow Leopard I think the last chance will be at the WWDC keynote demo. They could add it at any time, but the only reason I can see to hold off adding it to the SL betas is to make it part of the announcement.
For the sake of everyone who wants an Apple-supported BRD that will natively play protected BR video in protected H.264/AVC-HP or AVCHD and VC-1 or SMPTE 421M (I can't keep up with the nomenclature) I hope that I am absolutely and completely wrong on this subject.
Apple sees Blu-ray as a dead-end tech and plans to get rid of optical drives as soon as possibly can (I know we disagree on this point, to put it mildly). They are pushing downloads as the next media format for video. We know their HD not even close as Blu-ray, but neither was their 128Kbps audio as good as CD Audio. I think they are banking on the convenience aspect again.
So I think we have an issue the technology not being available for Apple and Apple pushing the envelope with going in the future a little quickly compared to others. I don't see Apple ever offering Blu-ray in their Mac Pros until they have secured their online videos position and until the Mac notebooks lose their optical drives.
Actually, Apple and Steve Jobs have said that they have issues with the licensing and licensing fees of the Blu-ray group. Supposedly, they've recently lowered their fees and requirements.
And seriously, currently there simply isn't enough bandwidth to allow for Full-HD downloads in a reasonable timeframe. Until there is a MAJOR network upgrade that will allow for Full-HD downloads, Blu-ray will remain a viable, convenient and collectable media. Right now and for the foreseeable future.
Even when the network capacity has been upgraded, there will remain a need for archival quality backups. Blu-ray and it's 50GB per disk capacity fits the bill here as well. hard drives break and SSD's are WAY too expensive to use for a media library. So, it still points to Blu-ray. Lots of people LIKE to have real media to look at, handle and collect. I don't care about a video library, but I'm fanatical about my music library... nearing 4000 CDs.
As more and more people buy Full-HD TVs (and computer monitors that support 1920 x 1080 screen resolution) there will be a GROWING desire to see MORE Full-HD content. 720 res just won't cut it.
When I got a 1080p TV, I was content with standard def cable TV broadcasts for a while. As I lived with it, I watched more and more 1080i broadcasts and fewer Standard programming (I watch movies and NHL games mainly). Gradually, my upsampling DVD player started to lose it's allure and I bought a Blu-ray player. NOW I'll wait for Netflix to deliver Blu-ray disks. For me, it's worth it.
Go to a friend's house who has a Full-HDTV and Blu-ray player, then watch the Planet Earth series on Blu-ray. You won't want to go back to anything less than Full-HD.
I don't know the particulars, so I can't give you that answer, but they must do something to support the format. They may also have to do something to enable HDCP support for it. I don't know if having HDCP support for their own products is enough.
For Windows, which does have BD support in the OS in Vista, there are a number of programs that enable movie playback. That software is included with every player/recorder sold, even if MS's own media software doesn't do it yet.
There are no counterparts in the Mac world because there is no OS support. That's all I really know. I suppose we can Google it, but I'm too lazy to do that now.
I wonder if it can it be supported with an OS level codec or does it have to use the codecs built into the chipset that I dont' think Apple pays for or has active in regards to VC-1. Could that be a cavet for Apple and others wanting to make a 3rd-party app? I'm too lazy to look into it, too.
And seriously, currently there simply isn't enough bandwidth to allow for Full-HD downloads in a reasonable timeframe. Until there is a MAJOR network upgrade that will allow for Full-HD downloads, Blu-ray will remain a viable, convenient and collectable media. Right now and for the foreseeable future.
Full-HD will ever be sliding. You can say that 720p isn't full HD, but by previous definitions it is high definition when it was conceived. Beyond that, even if Apple offered 1080p it still wouldn't match anything Blu-ray or HD-DVD could do because the bitrate would be too low. But I don't think that is as big an issue as you might think. As Apple has shown with 128Kbps audio without nifty CD liners, that most people are fine with "good enough". While there was the benefit with iTunes Store of just buying the tracks you wanted instead of a whole CD, I think that "good enough" will work for many people, especially when it has the benefit of being vastly more convenient to most.
That is not to say that Blu-ray doesn't have its place. It will do well and I think it will dominate over DVD rentals and sales within 2.5 years, but I think it will be the last real optical standard. Though that isn't saying much as the format has plenty of growing room within itself.
Even when the network capacity has been upgraded, there will remain a need for archival quality backups. Blu-ray and it's 50GB per disk capacity fits the bill here as well. hard drives break and SSD's are WAY too expensive to use for a media library. So, it still points to Blu-ray. Lots of people LIKE to have real media to look at, handle and collect. I don't care about a video library, but I'm fanatical about my music library... nearing 4000 CDs.
And you can do backups on Blu-ray now if you want. It's still much too expensive for most and HDDs have proven cheap enough and reliable enough to suit most people's needs. I can get a RAIDed backup system that is faster and considerably cheaper than Blu-ray. Outside of an EM pulse your golden. But convenience usually wins in the end. Most people don't do backups, which makes Time Machine a workable system, and I don't see the average consumer purposely sticking in Blu-ray disc they bought for $ at buy.com to make a periodic system backup. It just won't happen.
I'm an OS X developer and I don't use DL-DVDs to install Snow Leopard. I just move it to a partition and do the install in 5 minutes without wasting a DL-DVD, which always failed more often than I liked. That is less time than it takes to burn the disc, muchless verify it and then install it from disc.
As more and more people buy Full-HD TVs (and computer monitors that support 1920 x 1080 screen resolution) there will be a GROWING desire to see MORE Full-HD content. 720 res just won't cut it.
I think you underestimate most people's innate laziness and cheapness. Having the latest tech is great, but not when the cost doesn't outweigh the perceived benefits. Sure, some will think that Monster cables being technically better is worth the extra money and that having the best Blu-ray player with the best HDTV that has come out that year is the only way to watch a movie. But only id that movie was filmed with the appropriate camera, but that isn't most people.
Having a BR appliance on their HDTV for their Netflix account does not mean that all DVD players in their computers have to be replaced with BRDs. I can't see people thinking that. I like my HD content but I also like my SD content that I watch on my iPhone, which is more often that not as I travel constantly. Today, I'm in upstate NY, I have a good cell signal, though no 3G. Luckily I have 5 episodes of Lost to catch up on.
When I got a 1080p TV, I was content with standard def cable TV broadcasts for a while. As I lived with it, I watched more and more 1080i broadcasts and fewer Standard programming (I watch movies and NHL games mainly). Gradually, my upsampling DVD player started to lose it's allure and I bought a Blu-ray player. NOW I'll wait for Netflix to deliver Blu-ray disks. For me, it's worth it.
Go to a friend's house who has a Full-HDTV and Blu-ray player, then watch the Planet Earth series on Blu-ray. You won't want to go back to anything less than Full-HD.
I'm fully aware for of the "minimal acceptable experience" increase that occurs with new tech, but that isn't an overnight thing and it isn't everyone at once. There are still people that use VHS tapes to record shows! Blu-ray is worth it for many people I know. I'm not saying that "it's not as good as people say" or that "an upscaling DVD is as just as good", I'm saying that 1) it takes time which gives online distributers a chance to get their convenience option in place, which is what I think Apple is doing; and, 2) because it's well suited for a 50" 1080p TV for your home theater doesn't mean it's well suited for a 13" MacBook, Apple's biggest seller. But I relentlessly want the whole optical drive removed so anything more than an external solution for a BRD in a Mac notebook is a disaster, IMO.
But I don't think all the major problems are gone. The licensing and HDCP are in check but those aren't the most pressing issues, just the most pressed issues.
The only issues that Jobs said he was concerned with were the licensing issues, and those are now gone. The licensing can now be done through one entity, rather than several, and the total fee has been dropped. If every consumer electronics concern was able to negotiate their way around the older licensing problems, as I said earlier, Apple could have done so as well.
There are no other major problems associated with BD.
I see a major difference here. I don't recall cheap notebooks and desktops from Dell having that as an option. At this point, if Apple does include it in the Mac Pro they will have plenty of people wondering why they don't have [9.5mm] BRDs in their MacBooks, MacBook Pros, iMacs and Mac Minis, when they see that all other computers costing half as much as a base price have the option.
This has nothing to do with cheap notebooks. This has everything to do with having support in the OS.
For the large notebook-grade tray-loading drives, yes, but Apple doesn't use those. While Apple would get the best price for any ulta-thin slot loading BRDs they still couldn't be sold close to what these other drives cost. Not unless Apple takes a dive on the profits for this option, which is not likely. I just don't see the marketing path Apple could take, even if 9.5mm drives are available.
Again, this has nothing to do with any of that. It's simply an issue of OS support. Everything else will follow from that.
This I do agree with. Let Apple support it in its minimalist form in the OS and HW and then let 3rd-party BRD makers and 3rd-party BR apps make their way onto Macs. That is the only viable option I've seen so far, but I think that Apple is really pushing online downloads for computers and keeping the BR appliances for your home theater.
Apple must support this in the OS. There is no such thing as minimalist support. They either support it or not.
I think in under 4 years that NAND will hold a better cost-per-GB than optical media. On top of that it will considerably faster. The only real benefit that optical media will always have is its resistance to EMPs so it can make for a good backup option. But that can be done now with any BRD connected to a Mac.
I don't see companies offering content on flash. I wouldn't want to try a permanent backup on flash. That's not a good idea, as flash isn't intended for that, and isn't considered to be reliable for long terms.
Someday, and that could be a while off, we will have something to supplant disks. No one would argue that. But there are technologies that are being worked on now that won't see the commercial light of day for perhaps ten years. There's nothing else on the horizon right now.
I think it's more than just cost, it's also its gnashing against Apple's business model. We know Apple doesn't like to give the customer a plethora of options to choose from. Often, it's really for the best, abut sometimes it's just to push their own profitable agenda. It for this reason I don't think we'll see it until Apple has a solid future in digital video downloads (maybe when the AppleTV is no longer a hobby).
Look, this is an argument that we've both agreed on, at least for the short term. Apple is hesitating because they really don't want to offer something they think will possibly hurt their download business. I disagree that it will. I also think that's a mistake, because I think that unlike music and apps, their movie and Tv download business is unsustainable in the long haul anyway. We're beginning to see a much wider venue for these Tv shows and movies on the internet. The high cost pay model is doomed in the long run.
If Apple plans to ad Blu-ray support to Snow Leopard I think the last chance will be at the WWDC keynote demo. They could add it at any time, but the only reason I can see to hold off adding it to the SL betas is to make it part of the announcement.
Like you say, they can add it at any time. They might even prefer to slip it in quietly, rather than make a big deal about it. Hard to say.
For the sake of everyone who wants an Apple-supported BRD that will natively play protected BR video in protected H.264/AVC-HP or AVCHD and VC-1 or SMPTE 421M (I can't keep up with the nomenclature) I hope that I am absolutely and completely wrong on this subject.
I think it has to happen, or Apple will be giving up sales to the PC industry that there is no reason they shouldn't have.
To a lessor extent, this is like the gaming issue. Way back, when the Mac was called a toy by all the PC-DOS wielding boys, I could understand why Apple shied away from games, even though Macs would have been much better game machines than PC's. But as the industry shifted more to consumer sales (partly thanks to Apple supplying CD players in Macs before anyone else did in large numbers) in the mid '90's, that reason was no more. But Apple still never "got it". Even Jobs never go it. This has held back the Macs sales more than any other reason. I can't even count how many people over the years bought PC's rather than Macs ONLY because of games. It's still happening!
While BD isn't such a contentious issue, it's becoming more of one as time goes on. People ask me why they can't get a Mac with BD. I don't really know what to say. If I tell them the entire truth, they look away in disgust, and that's the end of the Mac for them now, and possibly forever. If I just give them Jobs' reasons as stated, they want to know when they will be able to buy a Mac with one, and I can't answer that.
For me, the only real reason why I would have liked to see BD offered for my Mac Pro would have been as the indication that Apple had given in, and supported it.
But I would be happier if they just announce support, because then I could buy any BD writer (as long as they don't do what they did with CD and DVD writers over many years of only having support for the ones they supplied in their machines) that was better spec'd that Apple's own.
I wonder if it can it be supported with an OS level codec or does it have to use the codecs built into the chipset that I dont' think Apple pays for or has active in regards to VC-1. Could that be a cavet for Apple and others wanting to make a 3rd-party app? I'm too lazy to look into it, too.
I don't know, and it doesn't matter. As long as it's Apple that has to do it, we have to wait for them.
I don't know, and it doesn't matter. As long as it's Apple that has to do it, we have to wait for them.
I think it does matter. Without knowing the particulars of where the chain is broken we don't have much to work with. I found this link which points to BR movies being playable on a Mac Pro using their drive when running Windows natively. This cancels the HW issue. Licensing is simplified and less costly, but is less costly and simply enough for Apple now? What the main reason or just a good one to talk about because it easily puts the blame elsewhere? Will having Blu-ray drives in only the Mac Pros really be enough for the vocal public?
Finally, can HDCP work over HDCP so external drives can be included (I'll look this one up)? A: Apparently it's been proposed but I can't find any info on the progress, if it requires HW changes of just firmware changes.