Reread your post, not sure if the bit about not having at lurkers was in there at first, but:
I truly apologize for snapping at you, in my defense I'll just say that as of late the boards have been kind of overrun by a particular kind of poster I've described elsewhere.
Suffice to say this is the type of person who has no reason to be there beyond feeling smug and superior to "Mac people", and who have nothing to add to the conversation beyond mockery and snark.
I've been a member of this community for quite a while, and there has definitely been a tonal shift, based on the shear number of the sort I describe above. If I sound defensive, it's simply because what once were spirited debates rooted in a general appreciation for the platform have come to seem more like the comments section on, say, Engadget, where any mention of any perceived advantage to being a Mac user is meant with withering scorn and derision.
Noticing and reacting to this trend are very different things from demanding mindless group think, or not being able to tolerate "criticism", since it goes right past platforms or computers or tech and gets into how communities are comprised and what sorts of people participate. My irritation is based on that, not on some misguided loyalty to a corporation.
If there was a cafe where I hung out with people I liked and we shot the breeze about stuff we liked, and a bunch of people started coming around who made it clear that they thought we were kinda stupid and wrong and kept interrupting our conversations with belittling remarks to that effect, would anyone decide that our lack of enthusiasm for that kind of behavior meant we were unduly thin skinned? Or would it seem like the new group were pretty much dicks, and leave one to wonder why they didn't have anything better to do?
Having said all that (and I've said it a couple of times now in a couple of ways, so I guess I'll just leave it at that), I actually agree that what Apple has done with MDP is kinda a pain in the ass, at the moment. I get that a compact, royalty free connector works for them, but, as you say, it might have been nice is they (or somebody) had worked out the audio spec before they shipped the new hardware.
OTOH, the DP spec does have some real advantages-- longer cables, potential additional data paths, "direct drive" monitors that drop some of the legacy control signaling.
Hopefully (and even probably, given quite a few computer hardware manufacturers have signed onto the DP spec), we'll see more and more stuff (particular monitors, which Dell is already doing) with DP, and the perceived "Apple being proprietary" vibe will fade away, just as it did when Apple dropped legacy ports in favor of USB. If not...... well, it wouldn't be Apple if they weren't fucking around with their monitor connections.
Again, I'm always happy to respond to thoughtful posts from thoughtful people, and I very much appreciate you taking the time to speak to your concerns. I hope you post more, and forgive my rude welcome.
For my part, I'll try to dial back my "policeman" mood a bit, and not jump on anyone that sounds like they're yet another member of the peanut gallery.
But I'll also say that I'll continue to respond to PC triumphalists with nothing better to do than piss in our little pond by basically suggest they fuck off, because I don't much like bullies and I don't much like douchebags, and I think most folks would agree that lately we have far to many of both.
I fully concur and accept your apology.
Honestly, you need not have apologized as I wasn't offended, but I commend that you have the graciousness to do so and will not let it fall upon deaf ears.
You are correct in that I need to tone down the policemen air. That is the job of the moderators and none of my affair so I will leave it to them in the future.
As for the trolling PC users, fire away at them, but beware. Half the time they are just sitting there laughing just to see if they can get a response in kind.
The best thing to do is ignore them, but that's just my opinion based on trollers I personally know who have admitted to me they do exactly that.
Honestly, you need not have apologized as I wasn't offended, but I commend that you have the graciousness to do so and will not let it fall upon deaf ears.
You are correct in that I need to tone down the policemen air. That is the job of the moderators and none of my affair so I will leave it to them in the future.
As for the trolling PC users, fire away at them, but beware. Half the time they are just sitting there laughing just to see if they can get a response in kind.
The best thing to do is ignore them, but that's just my opinion based on trollers I personally know who have admitted to me they do exactly that.
Just as an aside, I was actually dinging myself for the "policeman" thing-- you know, overreacting to "suspicious" behavior.
As for trolls, sure. I'm not at all interested in arguing platform contention. I will speak up, though, when it starts to feel like they are coming in force, because that changes the underlying nature of the forum.
Apple didn't make the standard? Fine. I won't argue that, though the link said nothing about whether Apple did or did not make it, only that VESA chose to adopt it and it's first introduction was October 2008, essentially when Apple introduced it so that makes your argument it isn't a Apple fabrication a little flimsy.
There it nothing flimsy about facts. I gave you a link that linked to every other aspect of DisplayPort and that had many links that support the data on Wikipedia. Wiki is not the end for research, but it's a good beginning. Again, Vesa created DP. All Apple did was make a smaller connector, they did nothing with the way data is transmitted. Vesa adopted this smaller connector.
Quote:
Why mention HDMI? Many PCs now use that standard, and as I mentioned in my previous post, with all those HD movies on iTunes, it would probably make sense to allow those that download them to enjoy them in their intended delivery method rather than having to purchase a neutered Apple TV box (which, ironically contains and HDMI port. Go figure....)
Why you think Apple should support a standard, especially an older one, just because other do is beyond me. HDMI was put on computers along with VGA for many reasons. None of those are god unless you want your PC to be the hub of your media center. There is nothing ironic or coincidental about the AppleTV having HDMI. It's designed to connect to your HDTV so it would have HDMI. Not DVI, not DisplayPort, not VGA. It also has component.
edit: Even Dell has a page as to why DisplayPort is the future of video-out on computers.
I misnamed a VGA port as a serial port? I guess that is unforgivable and I should be drug through the street, posed up and flogged and salt and lemon juice rubbed into my wounds for my transgression. Remind me to get right on that.
Again, as previously stated it was assumed you meant VGA, but how is that an excuse for you? It's an very old tech with very low capabilities. Your exaggerated rhetoric and your long, nonsensical introductions about cats and dogs don't help any argument you may have had.
Quote:
How many computers have the display port in comparison to Apple? Then counter how many computers have accepted the fact, as apple did long ago with iTunes, that most computers for the masses will be used for internet and entertainment and that will still beg the question why an HDMI port, which is progressive and therefore has not reached it's max resolution at this time, has not been included on any Apple product besides Apple TV.
You mentioned the max resolution of HDMi many times but haven't once mentioned the important factor, bandwidth. You mention that HDMI is more common on non-Mac PCs than on Macs, as if that is a bad thing. By your logic then no standard should ever be adopted because it will never have the marketshare over an older, lesser tech at time of launch. Mini-DisplayPort is the standard for Apple and it not "the flavor of the month" and DP will be adopted by other OEMS as it is overall superior and cheaper. We finally get a future-forward, free video-out connection and all we hear is people whining about change. Good news for you, because this won't be changing for a relatively long time.
Quote:
And, as stated earlier, it would have made more sense in any logical argument, that sound would have been included in the MDP standard when it was introduced, to differentiate it from DVI, to cut down on the amount of cables and to put it as a standard equal but superior to HDMI. That did not happen and therefore what's the difference between it and DVI?
If you would do a simple Google search or read the damn posts that have replied to you would understand how it is different from DVI. Your focus on audio is so narrow in focus that it's like communicating with a small child who doesn't have the cognitive faculties to understand the big picture.
Quote:
Optical out cable? Great, just one more cable to clutter the house and let my cats play with when it could have been just one cable from the outset.
I don't know what you are doing with your cables that they are cluttering your house, but these things tend to stay with the speakers on your desk. Are you really suggesting that your cats will play with a seperate audio or video cable but will somehow be intimidated by an A?V combo cable? Seriously!
Quote:
Now, I have made my point and answered your points as well, and have still done so in the most non-aggressive manner possible.
That wasn't so difficult now, was it?
Before you pull a muscle patting yourself on the back for your superciliousness know that being passive-aggressive is a form of aggression.
There it nothing flimsy about facts. I gave you a link that linked to every other aspect of DisplayPort and that had many links that support the data on Wikipedia. Wiki is not the end for research, but it's a good beginning. Again, Vesa created DP. All Apple did was make a smaller connector, they did nothing with the way data is transmitted. Vesa adopted this smaller connector.
Why you think Apple should support a standard, especially an older one, just because other do is beyond me. HDMI was put on computers along with VGA for many reasons. None of those are god unless you want your PC to be the hub of your media center. There is nothing ironic or coincidental about the AppleTV having HDMI. It's designed to connect to your HDTV so it would have HDMI. Not DVI, not DisplayPort, not VGA. It also has component.
edit: Even Dell has a page as to why DisplayPort is the future of video-out on computers.
Again, as previously stated it was assumed you meant VGA, but how is that an excuse for you? It's an very old tech with very low capabilities. Your exaggerated rhetoric and your long, nonsensical introductions about cats and dogs don't help any argument you may have had.
You mentioned the max resolution of HDMi many times but haven't once mentioned the important factor, bandwidth. You mention that HDMI is more common on non-Mac PCs than on Macs, as if that is a bad thing. By your logic then no standard should ever be adopted because it will never have the marketshare over an older, lesser tech at time of launch. Mini-DisplayPort is the standard for Apple and it not "the flavor of the month" and DP will be adopted by other OEMS as it is overall superior and cheaper. We finally get a future-forward, free video-out connection and all we hear is people whining about change. Good news for you, because this won't be changing for a relatively long time.
If you would do a simple Google search or read the damn posts that have replied to you would understand how it is different from DVI. Your focus on audio is so narrow in focus that it's like communicating with a small child who doesn't have the cognitive faculties to understand the big picture.
I don't know what you are doing with your cables that they are cluttering your house, but these things tend to stay with the speakers on your desk. Are you really suggesting that your cats will play with a seperate audio or video cable but will somehow be intimidated by an A?V combo cable? Seriously!
Before you pull a muscle patting yourself on the back for your superciliousness know that being passive-aggressive is a form of aggression.
I didn't even finish reading this.
In all of this you continue to make my point for me and justify the fact I need not continue reading.
Your delivery method is fatally flawed.
Every thing and every word for you is an attack.
Your attacks are based on a defensive nature that has grounded itself in attack as defense.
I see no point in continuing this discussion until you can take a long hard look at yourself and reevaluate how you choose to communicate.
Until then I will feel more than justified in observing your "scared cat" and "pit bull" syndromes.
Thank you for proving all of my points, especially about Windows users being arrogant. I might also add that your post was rude and obnoxious, too.
I think you didn't need to ADD that it was rude and obnoxious, that should have simply been your main point there. Nothing about my post "proved your points." I apologize for my rash response, but it really was irritating to read what you think was a decent addition to this discussion.
The truth is a Mac just happened to work out better for you and now you've built up a hatred for the other end for bad reasons as well as come up with your own notion as to what other people are thinking. Nobody is jealous of you. Arrogance does come from both ends, but I wasn't in any way trying to say my choices were better than yours. You as well as many others around here do just that though. One point I can't stress enough is when it comes to Macs and PCs, what's best for you won't always be what's best for someone else, so stop trying to make it seem like just because a Mac is for you it's for everyone.
You can't just post something ill-thought like you did and then not have anything substantial to back it up. As someone who's used apple computers literally since the first grade, I think I know a thing or two about both sides of the spectrum. It does piss me off to hear someone write off Macs as "not an option" for reasons that are illogical or don't make sense.
The statement you made about windows being a crap OS that needed the post powerful hardware to run smoothly just showed me how little you knew on the subject and fueled my nerd rage. Sorry for being a dick
Just to point out one thing. DisplayPort is open source. HDMI you require a license for, additionally it one supports resolutions up to 1900x1280 so bad luck to those running any more than that. That is one reason (as I understand) most laptops with HDMI also have a VGA. Also has anyone used a HDMI regularly plugging and unplugging, the port soon dies from my experience, though I can be a bit ham fisted at times. my DP still going strong!
Just to point out one thing. DisplayPort is open source. HDMI you require a license for, additionally it one supports resolutions up to 1900x1280 so bad luck to those running any more than that. That is one reason (as I understand) most laptops with HDMI also have a VGA. Also has anyone used a HDMI regularly plugging and unplugging, the port soon dies from my experience, though I can be a bit ham fisted at times. my DP still going strong!
Lack of licensing fees and royalty payments will mean pretty good uptake by manufacturers, which means a year from now Apple won't seem so out on a limb. At the moment, Apple can actually control utilization of the spec, but it's slated to be rolled into the general DP 1.2 release, at which point it is free and available to all (perhaps they learned a lesson from their fee per use Firewire vs. free USB experience).
Remember, too, that Apple is consolidating its display connection around a tiny plug that potentially does it all (HD video, surround sound, even power and USB data) that will support resolutions up to 3840 x 2160 (in the upcoming 1.2 spec).
Look for more MDP handhelds from other manufacturers in the coming months. It actually makes a lot of sense as a high density, high bandwidth connector on small form factor devices, and such devices that can really make use of that capacity are the wave of the future.
Lack of licensing fees and royalty payments will mean pretty good uptake by manufacturers, which means a year from now Apple won't seem so out on a limb.
Remember, too, that Apple is consolidating its display connection around a tiny plug that potentially does it all (HD video, surround sound, even power and USB data) that will support resolutions up to 3840 x 2160 (in the upcoming 1.2 spec).
Look for more MDP handhelds from other manufacturers in the coming months. It actually makes a lot of sense as a high density, high bandwidth connector on small form factor devices, and such devices that can really make use of that capacity is the wave of the future.
Besides that, you know converters will be available if someone wants to go from one way to another. I don't see what anyone's bitching about.
Besides that, you know converters will be available if someone wants to go from one way to another. I don't see what anyone's bitching about.
When Apple decides they want to adopt a new standard, they feel the best way to make it happen is to go all in.
I still remember people claiming that the original iMac "couldn't print" because Apple dropped the legacy port in favor of USB. At the time, few USB printers were available, although a serial to USB adapter was.
And, as we know, Apple's decision helped drive the wide spread adoption of USB, since in the PC market an emphasis on backward compatibility meant older ports rarely disappeared from new machines (and is the reason VGA is still hanging around today, for god's sake), giving peripheral manufactures little motivation to incorporate new standards.
Just to point out one thing. DisplayPort is open source. HDMI you require a license for, additionally it one supports resolutions up to 1900x1280 so bad luck to those running any more than that. That is one reason (as I understand) most laptops with HDMI also have a VGA. Also has anyone used a HDMI regularly plugging and unplugging, the port soon dies from my experience, though I can be a bit ham fisted at times. my DP still going strong!
Thanks.
That's a pretty good description. I haven't plugged and unplugged my HDMI connections, so I really don't know about them breaking eventually, but I can say that if the technology has to be licensed (I haven't researched this, but i believe you) then yes, I can see why Apple would refuse to adopt it.
That being said, I still believe Apple should have made it sound compatible, specifically surround sound compatible, from the outset. I will still stand by that.
When I buy my mother a Mac mini and a Samsung Flat Panel TV as a monitor (she's not doing anything graphics intensive so an LCD TV and a Mini should be fine....) I would rather her only need to plug in one port instead of two.
The point I have been attempting to make is universal adoption and simplicity.
People are inherently simple. Not everyone is an IT geek. They want to plug in one thing and have it do everything.
But, as you said, the need to license HDMI is prohibitive and I can understand wanting a varied (read "open source and free") format to utilize instead.
When Apple decides they want to adopt a new standard, they feel the best way to make it happen is to go all in.
I still remember people claiming that the original iMac "couldn't print" because Apple dropped the legacy port in favor of USB. At the time, few USB printers were available, although a serial to USB adapter was.
And, as we know, Apple's decision helped drive the wide spread adoption of USB, since in the PC market an emphasis on backward compatibility meant older ports rarely disappeared from new machines (and is the reason VGA is still hanging around today, for god's sake), giving peripheral manufactures little motivation to incorporate new standards.
That's absolutely true. I remember that. It was initially being introduced by Sun as the Jini standard, or something like that.
I also agree with what you stated about the 1.2 spec of the MDP. Once it makes it to that revision it will finally make sense.
It makes the point that DP allows thinner, cheaper, lower complexity monitors by moving some signal processing out of the display. Although, unfortunately, Apple MDP enabled monitors don't appear to be any of those things.....
At any rate, the general idea is that HDMI was conceived as a replacement for S video and component cabling in consumer HD video devices, whereas DP is positioned as a replacement for VGA and DVI computer connections.
My impression is that, although there are certainly more than a few HDMI packing PCs on the market, it can by no means be considered a done deal that HDMI has "won" as a standard on the computer side. In that, the situation may resemble the USB market at the time of the first iMac, with the Mac market now persuading some monitor manufacturers to start including DP, the availability of which which (especially if any of them actually are thinner and cheaper) making it more likely that PC makers will follow suit.
The grey area is the fact that more people are using their computers hooked up to TVs and stereos, which is why a consumer video interconnect is even in the vicinity of computer ports.
Whichever way that goes, I still think MDP will prove awfully enticing to manufacturers of space constrained machines, which appear to be the fastest growing segment of the market. At which point Apple will appear to have been prescient.
Or, I'm wrong and they have egg on their face and eventually have to give it up, after stubbornly clinging to what comes to be regarded as an Apple proprietary solution.
It makes the point that DP allows thinner, cheaper, lower complexity monitors by moving some signal processing out of the display. Although, unfortunately, Apple MDP enabled monitors don't appear to be any of those things.....
At any rate, the general idea is that HDMI was conceived as a replacement for S video and component cabling in consumer HD video devices, whereas DP is positioned as a replacement for VGA and DVI computer connections.
My impression is that, although there are certainly more than a few HDMI packing PCs on the market, it can by no means be considered a done deal that HDMI has "won" as a standard on the computer side. In that, the situation may resemble the USB market at the time of the first iMac, with the Mac market now persuading some monitor manufacturers to start including DP, the availability of which which (especially if any of them actually are thinner and cheaper) making it more likely that PC makers will follow suit.
The grey area is the fact that more people are using their computers hooked up to TVs and stereos, which is why a consumer video interconnect is even in the vicinity of computer ports.
Whichever way that goes, I still think MDP will prove awfully enticing to manufacturers of space constrained machines, which appear to be the fastest growing segment of the market. At which point Apple will appear to have been prescient.
Or, I'm wrong and they have egg on their face and eventually have to give it up, after stubbornly clinging to what comes to be regarded as an Apple proprietary solution.
I'm betting on the former, but who knows.
Seeing that Dell and VESA seem to have adopted the medium and the fact it doesn't require licensing may assist in it's adoption.
Unfortunately, with so many generations of consumer product already in the pipeline and HDMI at this time being the defacto consumer standard, as well as so many companies having already paid the licensing fees to utilize the HDMI connector, I can see the resistance to the adoption of the MDP, if for no other reason than to not have to admit they all jumped to soon and paid for something they could have had for free.
Then there's the adverse:
That HDMI will suddenly become an open source standard just to spitefully attempt to undercut MDP and ground it's dominance.
as for the folks that said "they should do an I'm a Mac ad" it's not likely to happen. Justin is very likely off contract and no way would he settle for the cheap deal they got last time. better (in the eyes of the bean counters) to go a new route.
Win7 has been made to run on netbooks well, apparently. This means that MS will stop licensing WinXP and start pushing Win7 instead. I also know of companies that are still on WinXO that will be moving to Win7 shortly after its release. MS has done well this time around.
Does it matter if corporate America decides not to upgrade just yet? While I'm an independent contractor, there are still 20,000+ others I work with who are stuck with whatever corporate decides, and right now corporate has no plans to upgrade. They are tired of MS pulling their chains and not delivering a better experience, both for IT and the end user.
Comments
Reread your post, not sure if the bit about not having at lurkers was in there at first, but:
I truly apologize for snapping at you, in my defense I'll just say that as of late the boards have been kind of overrun by a particular kind of poster I've described elsewhere.
Suffice to say this is the type of person who has no reason to be there beyond feeling smug and superior to "Mac people", and who have nothing to add to the conversation beyond mockery and snark.
I've been a member of this community for quite a while, and there has definitely been a tonal shift, based on the shear number of the sort I describe above. If I sound defensive, it's simply because what once were spirited debates rooted in a general appreciation for the platform have come to seem more like the comments section on, say, Engadget, where any mention of any perceived advantage to being a Mac user is meant with withering scorn and derision.
Noticing and reacting to this trend are very different things from demanding mindless group think, or not being able to tolerate "criticism", since it goes right past platforms or computers or tech and gets into how communities are comprised and what sorts of people participate. My irritation is based on that, not on some misguided loyalty to a corporation.
If there was a cafe where I hung out with people I liked and we shot the breeze about stuff we liked, and a bunch of people started coming around who made it clear that they thought we were kinda stupid and wrong and kept interrupting our conversations with belittling remarks to that effect, would anyone decide that our lack of enthusiasm for that kind of behavior meant we were unduly thin skinned? Or would it seem like the new group were pretty much dicks, and leave one to wonder why they didn't have anything better to do?
Having said all that (and I've said it a couple of times now in a couple of ways, so I guess I'll just leave it at that), I actually agree that what Apple has done with MDP is kinda a pain in the ass, at the moment. I get that a compact, royalty free connector works for them, but, as you say, it might have been nice is they (or somebody) had worked out the audio spec before they shipped the new hardware.
OTOH, the DP spec does have some real advantages-- longer cables, potential additional data paths, "direct drive" monitors that drop some of the legacy control signaling.
Hopefully (and even probably, given quite a few computer hardware manufacturers have signed onto the DP spec), we'll see more and more stuff (particular monitors, which Dell is already doing) with DP, and the perceived "Apple being proprietary" vibe will fade away, just as it did when Apple dropped legacy ports in favor of USB. If not...... well, it wouldn't be Apple if they weren't fucking around with their monitor connections.
Again, I'm always happy to respond to thoughtful posts from thoughtful people, and I very much appreciate you taking the time to speak to your concerns. I hope you post more, and forgive my rude welcome.
For my part, I'll try to dial back my "policeman" mood a bit, and not jump on anyone that sounds like they're yet another member of the peanut gallery.
But I'll also say that I'll continue to respond to PC triumphalists with nothing better to do than piss in our little pond by basically suggest they fuck off, because I don't much like bullies and I don't much like douchebags, and I think most folks would agree that lately we have far to many of both.
I fully concur and accept your apology.
Honestly, you need not have apologized as I wasn't offended, but I commend that you have the graciousness to do so and will not let it fall upon deaf ears.
You are correct in that I need to tone down the policemen air. That is the job of the moderators and none of my affair so I will leave it to them in the future.
As for the trolling PC users, fire away at them, but beware. Half the time they are just sitting there laughing just to see if they can get a response in kind.
The best thing to do is ignore them, but that's just my opinion based on trollers I personally know who have admitted to me they do exactly that.
I fully concur and accept your apology.
Honestly, you need not have apologized as I wasn't offended, but I commend that you have the graciousness to do so and will not let it fall upon deaf ears.
You are correct in that I need to tone down the policemen air. That is the job of the moderators and none of my affair so I will leave it to them in the future.
As for the trolling PC users, fire away at them, but beware. Half the time they are just sitting there laughing just to see if they can get a response in kind.
The best thing to do is ignore them, but that's just my opinion based on trollers I personally know who have admitted to me they do exactly that.
Just as an aside, I was actually dinging myself for the "policeman" thing-- you know, overreacting to "suspicious" behavior.
As for trolls, sure. I'm not at all interested in arguing platform contention. I will speak up, though, when it starts to feel like they are coming in force, because that changes the underlying nature of the forum.
Apple didn't make the standard? Fine. I won't argue that, though the link said nothing about whether Apple did or did not make it, only that VESA chose to adopt it and it's first introduction was October 2008, essentially when Apple introduced it so that makes your argument it isn't a Apple fabrication a little flimsy.
There it nothing flimsy about facts. I gave you a link that linked to every other aspect of DisplayPort and that had many links that support the data on Wikipedia. Wiki is not the end for research, but it's a good beginning. Again, Vesa created DP. All Apple did was make a smaller connector, they did nothing with the way data is transmitted. Vesa adopted this smaller connector.
Why mention HDMI? Many PCs now use that standard, and as I mentioned in my previous post, with all those HD movies on iTunes, it would probably make sense to allow those that download them to enjoy them in their intended delivery method rather than having to purchase a neutered Apple TV box (which, ironically contains and HDMI port. Go figure....)
Why you think Apple should support a standard, especially an older one, just because other do is beyond me. HDMI was put on computers along with VGA for many reasons. None of those are god unless you want your PC to be the hub of your media center. There is nothing ironic or coincidental about the AppleTV having HDMI. It's designed to connect to your HDTV so it would have HDMI. Not DVI, not DisplayPort, not VGA. It also has component.
edit: Even Dell has a page as to why DisplayPort is the future of video-out on computers.
I misnamed a VGA port as a serial port? I guess that is unforgivable and I should be drug through the street, posed up and flogged and salt and lemon juice rubbed into my wounds for my transgression. Remind me to get right on that.
Again, as previously stated it was assumed you meant VGA, but how is that an excuse for you? It's an very old tech with very low capabilities. Your exaggerated rhetoric and your long, nonsensical introductions about cats and dogs don't help any argument you may have had.
How many computers have the display port in comparison to Apple? Then counter how many computers have accepted the fact, as apple did long ago with iTunes, that most computers for the masses will be used for internet and entertainment and that will still beg the question why an HDMI port, which is progressive and therefore has not reached it's max resolution at this time, has not been included on any Apple product besides Apple TV.
You mentioned the max resolution of HDMi many times but haven't once mentioned the important factor, bandwidth. You mention that HDMI is more common on non-Mac PCs than on Macs, as if that is a bad thing. By your logic then no standard should ever be adopted because it will never have the marketshare over an older, lesser tech at time of launch. Mini-DisplayPort is the standard for Apple and it not "the flavor of the month" and DP will be adopted by other OEMS as it is overall superior and cheaper. We finally get a future-forward, free video-out connection and all we hear is people whining about change. Good news for you, because this won't be changing for a relatively long time.
And, as stated earlier, it would have made more sense in any logical argument, that sound would have been included in the MDP standard when it was introduced, to differentiate it from DVI, to cut down on the amount of cables and to put it as a standard equal but superior to HDMI. That did not happen and therefore what's the difference between it and DVI?
If you would do a simple Google search or read the damn posts that have replied to you would understand how it is different from DVI. Your focus on audio is so narrow in focus that it's like communicating with a small child who doesn't have the cognitive faculties to understand the big picture.
Optical out cable? Great, just one more cable to clutter the house and let my cats play with when it could have been just one cable from the outset.
I don't know what you are doing with your cables that they are cluttering your house, but these things tend to stay with the speakers on your desk. Are you really suggesting that your cats will play with a seperate audio or video cable but will somehow be intimidated by an A?V combo cable? Seriously!
Now, I have made my point and answered your points as well, and have still done so in the most non-aggressive manner possible.
That wasn't so difficult now, was it?
Before you pull a muscle patting yourself on the back for your superciliousness know that being passive-aggressive is a form of aggression.
There it nothing flimsy about facts. I gave you a link that linked to every other aspect of DisplayPort and that had many links that support the data on Wikipedia. Wiki is not the end for research, but it's a good beginning. Again, Vesa created DP. All Apple did was make a smaller connector, they did nothing with the way data is transmitted. Vesa adopted this smaller connector.
Why you think Apple should support a standard, especially an older one, just because other do is beyond me. HDMI was put on computers along with VGA for many reasons. None of those are god unless you want your PC to be the hub of your media center. There is nothing ironic or coincidental about the AppleTV having HDMI. It's designed to connect to your HDTV so it would have HDMI. Not DVI, not DisplayPort, not VGA. It also has component.
edit: Even Dell has a page as to why DisplayPort is the future of video-out on computers. Again, as previously stated it was assumed you meant VGA, but how is that an excuse for you? It's an very old tech with very low capabilities. Your exaggerated rhetoric and your long, nonsensical introductions about cats and dogs don't help any argument you may have had.
You mentioned the max resolution of HDMi many times but haven't once mentioned the important factor, bandwidth. You mention that HDMI is more common on non-Mac PCs than on Macs, as if that is a bad thing. By your logic then no standard should ever be adopted because it will never have the marketshare over an older, lesser tech at time of launch. Mini-DisplayPort is the standard for Apple and it not "the flavor of the month" and DP will be adopted by other OEMS as it is overall superior and cheaper. We finally get a future-forward, free video-out connection and all we hear is people whining about change. Good news for you, because this won't be changing for a relatively long time.
If you would do a simple Google search or read the damn posts that have replied to you would understand how it is different from DVI. Your focus on audio is so narrow in focus that it's like communicating with a small child who doesn't have the cognitive faculties to understand the big picture.
I don't know what you are doing with your cables that they are cluttering your house, but these things tend to stay with the speakers on your desk. Are you really suggesting that your cats will play with a seperate audio or video cable but will somehow be intimidated by an A?V combo cable? Seriously!
Before you pull a muscle patting yourself on the back for your superciliousness know that being passive-aggressive is a form of aggression.
I didn't even finish reading this.
In all of this you continue to make my point for me and justify the fact I need not continue reading.
Your delivery method is fatally flawed.
Every thing and every word for you is an attack.
Your attacks are based on a defensive nature that has grounded itself in attack as defense.
I see no point in continuing this discussion until you can take a long hard look at yourself and reevaluate how you choose to communicate.
Until then I will feel more than justified in observing your "scared cat" and "pit bull" syndromes.
Good day.
Thank you for proving all of my points, especially about Windows users being arrogant. I might also add that your post was rude and obnoxious, too.
I think you didn't need to ADD that it was rude and obnoxious, that should have simply been your main point there. Nothing about my post "proved your points." I apologize for my rash response, but it really was irritating to read what you think was a decent addition to this discussion.
The truth is a Mac just happened to work out better for you and now you've built up a hatred for the other end for bad reasons as well as come up with your own notion as to what other people are thinking. Nobody is jealous of you. Arrogance does come from both ends, but I wasn't in any way trying to say my choices were better than yours. You as well as many others around here do just that though. One point I can't stress enough is when it comes to Macs and PCs, what's best for you won't always be what's best for someone else, so stop trying to make it seem like just because a Mac is for you it's for everyone.
You can't just post something ill-thought like you did and then not have anything substantial to back it up. As someone who's used apple computers literally since the first grade, I think I know a thing or two about both sides of the spectrum. It does piss me off to hear someone write off Macs as "not an option" for reasons that are illogical or don't make sense.
The statement you made about windows being a crap OS that needed the post powerful hardware to run smoothly just showed me how little you knew on the subject and fueled my nerd rage. Sorry for being a dick
I didn't even finish reading this.
In all of this you continue to make my point for me and justify the fact I need not continue reading.
Your delivery method is fatally flawed.
Every thing and every word for you is an attack.
Your attacks are based on a defensive nature that has grounded itself in attack as defense.
I see no point in continuing this discussion until you can take a long hard look at yourself and reevaluate how you choose to communicate.
Until then I will feel more than justified in observing your "scared cat" and "pit bull" syndromes.
Good day.
That's
how
most
people
debate
around
here
That's
how
most
people
debate
around
here
I guess I'm just fatally flawed for being an idealist.
Just to point out one thing. DisplayPort is open source. HDMI you require a license for, additionally it one supports resolutions up to 1900x1280 so bad luck to those running any more than that. That is one reason (as I understand) most laptops with HDMI also have a VGA. Also has anyone used a HDMI regularly plugging and unplugging, the port soon dies from my experience, though I can be a bit ham fisted at times. my DP still going strong!
Lack of licensing fees and royalty payments will mean pretty good uptake by manufacturers, which means a year from now Apple won't seem so out on a limb. At the moment, Apple can actually control utilization of the spec, but it's slated to be rolled into the general DP 1.2 release, at which point it is free and available to all (perhaps they learned a lesson from their fee per use Firewire vs. free USB experience).
Remember, too, that Apple is consolidating its display connection around a tiny plug that potentially does it all (HD video, surround sound, even power and USB data) that will support resolutions up to 3840 x 2160 (in the upcoming 1.2 spec).
Look for more MDP handhelds from other manufacturers in the coming months. It actually makes a lot of sense as a high density, high bandwidth connector on small form factor devices, and such devices that can really make use of that capacity are the wave of the future.
I guess I'm just fatally flawed for being an idealist.
The world is what you make of it.
I just wish you'd type your messages out in one line. I'M OBNOXIOUS
Lack of licensing fees and royalty payments will mean pretty good uptake by manufacturers, which means a year from now Apple won't seem so out on a limb.
Remember, too, that Apple is consolidating its display connection around a tiny plug that potentially does it all (HD video, surround sound, even power and USB data) that will support resolutions up to 3840 x 2160 (in the upcoming 1.2 spec).
Look for more MDP handhelds from other manufacturers in the coming months. It actually makes a lot of sense as a high density, high bandwidth connector on small form factor devices, and such devices that can really make use of that capacity is the wave of the future.
Besides that, you know converters will be available if someone wants to go from one way to another. I don't see what anyone's bitching about.
Besides that, you know converters will be available if someone wants to go from one way to another. I don't see what anyone's bitching about.
When Apple decides they want to adopt a new standard, they feel the best way to make it happen is to go all in.
I still remember people claiming that the original iMac "couldn't print" because Apple dropped the legacy port in favor of USB. At the time, few USB printers were available, although a serial to USB adapter was.
And, as we know, Apple's decision helped drive the wide spread adoption of USB, since in the PC market an emphasis on backward compatibility meant older ports rarely disappeared from new machines (and is the reason VGA is still hanging around today, for god's sake), giving peripheral manufactures little motivation to incorporate new standards.
Just to point out one thing. DisplayPort is open source. HDMI you require a license for, additionally it one supports resolutions up to 1900x1280 so bad luck to those running any more than that. That is one reason (as I understand) most laptops with HDMI also have a VGA. Also has anyone used a HDMI regularly plugging and unplugging, the port soon dies from my experience, though I can be a bit ham fisted at times. my DP still going strong!
Thanks.
That's a pretty good description. I haven't plugged and unplugged my HDMI connections, so I really don't know about them breaking eventually, but I can say that if the technology has to be licensed (I haven't researched this, but i believe you) then yes, I can see why Apple would refuse to adopt it.
That being said, I still believe Apple should have made it sound compatible, specifically surround sound compatible, from the outset. I will still stand by that.
When I buy my mother a Mac mini and a Samsung Flat Panel TV as a monitor (she's not doing anything graphics intensive so an LCD TV and a Mini should be fine....) I would rather her only need to plug in one port instead of two.
The point I have been attempting to make is universal adoption and simplicity.
People are inherently simple. Not everyone is an IT geek. They want to plug in one thing and have it do everything.
But, as you said, the need to license HDMI is prohibitive and I can understand wanting a varied (read "open source and free") format to utilize instead.
The world is what you make of it.
I just wish you'd type your messages out in one line. I'M OBNOXIOUS
When Apple decides they want to adopt a new standard, they feel the best way to make it happen is to go all in.
I still remember people claiming that the original iMac "couldn't print" because Apple dropped the legacy port in favor of USB. At the time, few USB printers were available, although a serial to USB adapter was.
And, as we know, Apple's decision helped drive the wide spread adoption of USB, since in the PC market an emphasis on backward compatibility meant older ports rarely disappeared from new machines (and is the reason VGA is still hanging around today, for god's sake), giving peripheral manufactures little motivation to incorporate new standards.
That's absolutely true. I remember that. It was initially being introduced by Sun as the Jini standard, or something like that.
I also agree with what you stated about the 1.2 spec of the MDP. Once it makes it to that revision it will finally make sense.
It makes the point that DP allows thinner, cheaper, lower complexity monitors by moving some signal processing out of the display. Although, unfortunately, Apple MDP enabled monitors don't appear to be any of those things.....
At any rate, the general idea is that HDMI was conceived as a replacement for S video and component cabling in consumer HD video devices, whereas DP is positioned as a replacement for VGA and DVI computer connections.
My impression is that, although there are certainly more than a few HDMI packing PCs on the market, it can by no means be considered a done deal that HDMI has "won" as a standard on the computer side. In that, the situation may resemble the USB market at the time of the first iMac, with the Mac market now persuading some monitor manufacturers to start including DP, the availability of which which (especially if any of them actually are thinner and cheaper) making it more likely that PC makers will follow suit.
The grey area is the fact that more people are using their computers hooked up to TVs and stereos, which is why a consumer video interconnect is even in the vicinity of computer ports.
Whichever way that goes, I still think MDP will prove awfully enticing to manufacturers of space constrained machines, which appear to be the fastest growing segment of the market. At which point Apple will appear to have been prescient.
Or, I'm wrong and they have egg on their face and eventually have to give it up, after stubbornly clinging to what comes to be regarded as an Apple proprietary solution.
I'm betting on the former, but who knows.
Here's an interesting article on HDMI vs. DP.
It makes the point that DP allows thinner, cheaper, lower complexity monitors by moving some signal processing out of the display. Although, unfortunately, Apple MDP enabled monitors don't appear to be any of those things.....
At any rate, the general idea is that HDMI was conceived as a replacement for S video and component cabling in consumer HD video devices, whereas DP is positioned as a replacement for VGA and DVI computer connections.
My impression is that, although there are certainly more than a few HDMI packing PCs on the market, it can by no means be considered a done deal that HDMI has "won" as a standard on the computer side. In that, the situation may resemble the USB market at the time of the first iMac, with the Mac market now persuading some monitor manufacturers to start including DP, the availability of which which (especially if any of them actually are thinner and cheaper) making it more likely that PC makers will follow suit.
The grey area is the fact that more people are using their computers hooked up to TVs and stereos, which is why a consumer video interconnect is even in the vicinity of computer ports.
Whichever way that goes, I still think MDP will prove awfully enticing to manufacturers of space constrained machines, which appear to be the fastest growing segment of the market. At which point Apple will appear to have been prescient.
Or, I'm wrong and they have egg on their face and eventually have to give it up, after stubbornly clinging to what comes to be regarded as an Apple proprietary solution.
I'm betting on the former, but who knows.
Seeing that Dell and VESA seem to have adopted the medium and the fact it doesn't require licensing may assist in it's adoption.
Unfortunately, with so many generations of consumer product already in the pipeline and HDMI at this time being the defacto consumer standard, as well as so many companies having already paid the licensing fees to utilize the HDMI connector, I can see the resistance to the adoption of the MDP, if for no other reason than to not have to admit they all jumped to soon and paid for something they could have had for free.
Then there's the adverse:
That HDMI will suddenly become an open source standard just to spitefully attempt to undercut MDP and ground it's dominance.
i.e.: Sony, the PS3, and Blu-Ray.
as for the folks that said "they should do an I'm a Mac ad" it's not likely to happen. Justin is very likely off contract and no way would he settle for the cheap deal they got last time. better (in the eyes of the bean counters) to go a new route.
Bzzt: Wrong answer... 4 new ads.
http://www.apple.com/getamac/ads/
Guess he was just busy blastin' out a few spots in movies (his role as the gay movie producer in Zach & Miri was deff my favorite).
Yes! Return of the ads
B
Bzzt: Wrong answer... 4 new ads.
http://www.apple.com/getamac/ads/
Guess he was just busy blastin' out a few spots in movies (his role as the gay movie producer in Zach & Miri was deff my favorite).
Yes! Return of the ads
B
I figured his role in die hard 4 would be LOL.
eidt:
Oh wait, he wasn't using a Mac to hack anything was he? nvm
Win7 has been made to run on netbooks well, apparently. This means that MS will stop licensing WinXP and start pushing Win7 instead. I also know of companies that are still on WinXO that will be moving to Win7 shortly after its release. MS has done well this time around.
Does it matter if corporate America decides not to upgrade just yet? While I'm an independent contractor, there are still 20,000+ others I work with who are stuck with whatever corporate decides, and right now corporate has no plans to upgrade. They are tired of MS pulling their chains and not delivering a better experience, both for IT and the end user.