Ok look at what I was responding to. You missed my point.
Ok I see. I agree that "revolutionary" is one of those terms that gets thrown around. I agree Apple is big on boosterism, but hey that's what marketing is. I bet every company wishes it had a Steve Jobs like salesperson.
Outside of the marketing hype Apple at the very least has forced the computer industry to change its thinking about what computers are and how they function in peoples lives.
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Microsoft and who else? One competitor = not much competition. I wish it were like the automotive industry where not only do you have many competitors, but you even have companies in other countries people have never heard of.
I would reverse that statement to say Windows barely has any competition.
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So really it was a matter of Microsoft doing too well and the idea that they could be charging whatever they wanted without anyone knowing it was too much is what got them in trouble.
If I remember correctly, it all started with companies complaining that internet explorer was shipped with the os, and it was even an integral part of the os. From there the whole thing spun into this big frenzy over their hold on the market. Where was Apple in all of this? I remember it was pointed out many times that Microsoft legally ran business in accordance with the law and then got in trouble for doing well.
A lot of things happened before that point in time. By that point MS had been in court numerous times for screwing over numerous companies. The problem with Internet Explorer was at the time Netscape was the largest browser. MS began to prevent OEM's from pre-load any browser other than IE on their machines. That effectively killed Netscape and made IE the number one browser.
Being a monopoly in of itself isn't illegal. iTunes and the iPod have a monopoly but no legal action has been taken against them. Apple has done nothing to prevent others from having an equal opportunity to compete against them.
I believe they can. I think there are a lot of innovative smart people working for Apple, and they can use their profits to expand into the lower price range while offering quality products.
You are probably right - they could do it if they were very careful. Maybe they are waiting for the just perfect moment. And I do wonder what they are planning to do with the outrageous amount of cash they keep.
This discussion always appear to be reduced to the ridiculous.
You make three main points: 1) Value, 2) Customization, 3) Peripherals.
Each of these three are subjective according to the needs of the consumer.
1) A part of this is objective. If you spec out a PC with the same components as a Mac, the difference isn't $1,300. The subjective part is whether a couple hundred dollars extra for a Mac is "value for the dollar." For some people it is, for some people it is not.
2) The HP notebook that I replaced with a MacBook Pro is no more customizable than the MacBook Pro. Now that I think about it, why are you even talking about customization of notebooks?
What notebook has easily replaceable optical drives? The battery was certainly easily replaceable on my HP, it had a habit of falling out and dropping on my feet. And who replaces notebook CPUs? Who even replaces the hard drive on their notebook? I replaced the one in my HP, and the process was a bit advanced for the average computer customer. I had to format, clone, partition, none of which most people know how to do. The only easily replaceable thing was the DDR RAM.
When you talk about value, you talk about appealing to a broad market. And then you start talking about customization, some of which is nonsense and the rest is the exclusive province of people who work with computers professionally.
3) Who the hell uses an Express Card slot in the first place? Seriously. AT&T peddles a 3G network card, and the only other thing I can find on Amazon are devices that are already commonly available on USB or firewire.
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Okay, so what you want in a notebook is a cheap price, has the imaginary feature of full customization down to the CPU, and an express card slot that virtually no one uses.
I think your entire argument is a non sequitur. You deride Apple by contriving a litany of standards not met by any notebook manufacturer. Even the ACUS you mention does not meet the standards you lay in this post. Even though it is a close match, it certainly doesn't "kick the shit out of" the MBP by ay standard other than the size of the screen for the price.
Now if we're talking about desktops, then the discussion is entirely different. I'd probably build my own hackintosh.
ASUS has complete expandability on their notebooks. Many of their machines have MXM slots, which allows me to upgrade the video card. The issue is MXM cards are hard to find.
By making the machine easy to service, such as the optical drive and hard disk, I can perform upgrades without a expensive service call to Apple. Most notebooks have several bays on the bottom of the machine to replace components. Replacing my hard disk in my ASUS A8J takes 3 minutes tops. Two screws. SATA drive. Use Ghost, clone, done. I have done this a couple times to take my machine from an 80GB 5,400 RPM drive to the new Seagate 7200.4, which is significantly faster. I don't need to replace the CPU or the GPU. The screen is fine, so I'm spending $130 for a new drive, rather than spend $1200 on a new machine.
I am sure some Powerbook G4 owners might have said the same thing about your 3rd point. "Who the hell needs a PC Card Slot?" in circa 2001 or 2002. Then USB 2.0 came out and thumb drives came out. Many devices, such as scanners, thumb drives at this time had USB 2.0 support. USB 2.0 made these devices significantly faster. If I owned an iBook at the time it would mean scrapping the machine to buy a new one, or a Powerbook, just to get USB 2.0 support. This is stupid that I would have to pay $1400 for a new machine to get USB 2.0. Come to think of it, this is totally one of Apple's major problems with all their machines, except the Mac Pro.
The same thing is happening now. Think eSATA. My ASUS A8J does not come with eSATA. It comes with USB 2.0 and FW400. I am sure as hell glad that I have an expresscard slot. I can now use eSATA for backup and external storage. ESATA, according to Barefeats.com and Tomshardware.com, kills FW400 and USB 2.0 in performance. Why should I have to pay $2000 for a MBP (retail) to get eSATA capability. Hell even Apple got rid of the FW400 port on the regular Macbooks.
Expandability and serviceability is a good thing even for novice consumers. Consumer takes their notebook to local mom and pop shop (and not GeekSquad, they don't know what the hell they are doing). Consumer complains of slow boot times ever since they bought their machine. Tech finds out that the machine has a slow as hell 4,200 RPM drive. Tech advises to get a 7k320 HItachi or a 7200.4 Seagate drive for their Core1Duo machine from 2006 (as an example).
Tech cleans crap off of machine, does a defrag and then clones. Presto. Machine boots up 60% faster. Consumer pays $65 for the drive and maybe $100 for the labor. Due to the ease of replacing the drive the labor is cheaper and the techs job is easier. Consumer doesn't have to blow $1000 on a new machine, which won't come with a 7,200 RPM drive anyway.
Say the consumer broke the optical drive. Consumer or tech goes on newegg.com. Tech removes one or two screws to replace the optical drive. labor may be $50 and the drive is like $60 on newegg.com. Most standard 15, 14 and 17" notebooks are easy to replace the optical drive. My A8J requires removing one screw. Pull the tray out and pull gently. Remove the plastic faceplate and install on the new drive. Slide drive in, replace screw. I did this to add a HD-DVD drive that I got cheap off of eBay (I have allot of HD-DVD titles, thanks inetvideo.com
Lets do a Mac comparison. Machine is out of warranty. Apple charges a hell of allot more than $100 in labor. Apple will accept the drive from newegg.com but not recommended it because "it's not an official apple part". Consumer pays well over $200 for the same service. Consumer probably pays even more if the machine is a older ibook, Powerbook G4 12" etc do to the excessive steps (see ifixit.com) required. TO be fair the older Macbook plastic models are very nice, as they are easy to replace the hard disk.
The optical drives on the Macbook Pro is a slim line. It requires replacing many more screws and is far harder to do. labor is much higher and the drive is very hard to find.
I have done numerous services on many Mac laptop models. I cannot tell you how much of a pain in the ass it is to replace optical drives and hard disks on iBooks and Powerbooks. We have upgraded the drives on many machines do to poor performance of the factory 4,200 RPM drives and the older machines didn't have DVD-R/+R/DL burning built in. One machine (a PB 12" G4) was a royal pain in the ass to service. It requires removing something like 50 screws and REMOVING THE MOTHERBOARD to replace the optical drive. Apple wanted $350 to replace the drive with the same crappy CDRW model that broke.
The M70 does kick the crap out of the MBP for the money. Better video card, same resolution screen etc. It's not thin, it's not "sexy", no aluminum, no mag safe and no backlit keyboard. Big deal. Hardware is hardware.
The chipset is the same, it has the same Core2Duo CPU, same amount of ram, same FSB, same quality screen, same ACPI interface etc. And it can run OSX. It also costs $1300 less.
Apple's premium may be worth a couple hundred dollars to some. I highly doubt most consumers will be able to justify the massive difference in price between a MBP and a standard ASUS/MSI/HP/Whatever machine. Marketshare shows that this is true, as Apple's overall notebook marketshare when compared to everyone else is still pretty small (but allot better than it used to be)
The M70 does kick the crap out of the MBP for the money. Better video card, same resolution screen etc. It's not thin, it's not "sexy", no aluminum, no mag safe and no backlit keyboard. Big deal. Hardware is hardware.
The chipset is the same, it has the same Core2Duo CPU, same amount of ram, same FSB, same quality screen, same ACPI interface etc. And it can run OSX. It also costs $1300 less.
Fortunately, Apple do not sell to the "majority" in their business model. Fortunately as well, there are plenty for whom that 0.5" and OSX is well worth that $1300.
Ugh. Until someone can dredge up the parts list and bring fact to the cost of manufacturing a mac book pro, we'll continue to run in circles and base everything on a matter of opinion.
The only fact we can all agree on is the fact that Apple's market share falls considerably short to PC's. For your average consumer looking for a notebook, the aforementioned features don't translate to the price difference to a comparable PC.
This reminds me of the lexus vs toyota arguments my friends would get into in auto tech at school lol. There appears to be no end to this discussion so I'm ducking out. I've stated my thoughts and the reasoning behind them, and that's all I can do.
Or that PC OEMs reliance on Microsoft have left them with a poor business model that neither leads to good products or profits. Because of Windows ubiquity, they have very little to distinguish their products other than price. Because of this it is very tempting to cut costs by cutting quality. Of course Sony and others have tried to make PCs into luxury items with their VAIO range, but due to the lack of real differentiation, the market hasn't really rewarded this strategy. Margins are really thin and many OEMs are struggling. The general PC market mainly benefits Microsoft, no one else. HP is No. 1, but they have significant and substantial other areas of interests to help profits.
Care to name an alternative OS that OEMs should be using? Many buyers returned their Ubuntu netbooks because they couldn't use them. Much as I love Linux, its not as user friendly as Windows, and certainly isn't as familiar.
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Originally Posted by solipsism
Are you referring to VGA? Do you realize how out of date and lacking VGA is? If not, go to Wikipedia and read up on it.
Regardless of how out of date it is, most TV/monitor comboes come with VGA not DVI. Isn't this the intended use for Mac Mini's?
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Originally Posted by Trajectory
I can't believe the arrogance of Windows lovers who are somehow threatened by the Mac and it's 5% market share. Why are they so concerned about what we spend on our computers?
I think the Windows lovers are just jealous and feel the need to defend a crap OS that requires the most powerful hardware just to run smoothly. They overlook the one thing these MS ads ignore for a good reason: OSX.
Apple started it by insulting PC users and stereotyping them in their advert campaigns. Windows users are not jealous, merely angry that some poncey Apple owner looks down on them because they put price as a deciding factor in what PC they buy.
No matter how elegant an OS Apple make, they can't really make web surfing, email and Office much easier to do than on Windows. This is 90% of computer activity, and a PC will do all these things just as well as a Mac. The guy who said the average user wants to edit videos is lying through his teeth, or has only lots of very creative and rich friends.
The people who ask me for help with their computers would be just as baffled by their Mac. Someone who can't setup his new ipod because he doesn't have the latest iTunes will be just as confused using Apple's Software Update as he would be downloading from Apple's site. Someone who can't make a simple Powerpoint presentation consisting of pictures only is not going to find that task any easier on a Mac.
Its true that Macs are more secure, but really they haven't been tested anywhere near the level Windows has. When the day comes and the average idiot is using a Mac, and he gets a pop up saying he is missing Antivirus 2019 and he not only clicks the link to download but enters his password too when it asks, then we will see if Macs can stand up to the real security threat, user ignorance.
Regardless of how out of date it is, most TV/monitor comboes come with VGA not DVI. Isn't this the intended use for Mac Mini's?
If it was Apple's intended use they would have included a VGA out on the Mini or a VGA adapter. If you think that keeping up with legacy ports just because they are common then how does progress happen? Apple moved completely to USB before anyone else, getting rid of the large and slow Parallel and serial ports on computers.
Every Mac does optical out on the headphone port with the right connector, so you needn't worry about getting surround out to your system.
I guess by "serial connector" you mean VGA? Any Mac can connect to a VGA port with a cheap adapter. Although I'm not sure why I'd ever want to use it, since it's just there to accommodate all those legacy PCs with no other options, and anyone who has a machine with a more up to date video out (including every Mac) would use the HDMI or DVI for the improved image quality.
HDMI would be slightly tidier, but it's not as if Macs are hopelessly crippled in this respect.
He means Dolby TRUEHD and DTS-HD, which are vastly superior to the stanrdard Dolby Digital (which is a old as hell standard). You need to transmit audio over HDMI to support hose formats. DisplayPOrt is very similar to HDMI, sans the higher cost licensing. DisplayPORT supports higher resolution displays, and *tah dah* eliminates the small licensing cost to make Apple more money, just like when they decided to save $2 per Macbook and to eliminate Firewire and NOT make an ExpressCard slot available so someone could add it.
Apple doesn;t need that however as they DO NOT SUPPORT HD-DVD or Blu-Ray playback and thus probably don't see a need to support those formats because it compete's with their own business model (selling movies diretly off of iTunes, which is inferior in sound and picture quality).
If it was Apple's intended use they would have included a VGA out on the Mini or a VGA adapter. If you think that keeping up with legacy ports just because they are common then how does progress happen? Apple moved completely to USB before anyone else, getting rid of the large and slow Parallel and serial ports on computers.
Isn't the Mac Mini the one that comes without a screen? The one that is most suitable for sitting under a TV as a Media Centre? They used to sell them with the Apple Remote. Seems to be a an oversight on Apple's part if I then have to buy another adapter to make it work with my TV. Aren't Macs the machines that "just work"?
Apple seems to have a bumpy history with ports, considering my iBook G4 will only boot off an external firewire drive, and the Mac Mini doesn't have an HDMI out. Almost like Apple does what it pleases and the rest of the technology world be damned.
Isn't the Mac Mini the one that comes without a screen? The one that is most suitable for sitting under a TV as a Media Centre? Seems to be a an oversight on Apple's part if I then have to buy another adapter to make it work with my TV. Aren't Macs the machines that "just work"?
Apple seems to have a bumpy history with ports, considering my iBook G4 will only boot off an external firewire drive, and the Mac Mini doesn't have an HDMI out. Almost like Apple does what it pleases and the rest of the technology world be damned.
You don't seem to understand what Apple is marketing the Mac Mini as. The Mac Mini is their low cost headless Mac PC while the AppleTV is designed to be connected to your media center as an extension of iTunes.
People who use Macs, a lot are designers, ask them why, most will have no idea as in it's just a clicky clucky group to be in, they may say because of software, load of rubbish.
Guy had just said that to me then his Mac crashed, I said that's why they have handles on the case, he said why, I said so you can chuck the blooming thing out the window.
Mac should get over themselves, MS won, end of.
People think Macs are cool, just as people with mohicans think they are cool, so what, I don't want a mohican, some people think HD DVD & Betamax is cool, so what.
I am a designer but use PC's, I like to be compatible with the rest of the world & in the beginning there was naff all software for the mac available.
Maybe Bill Gates should buy Mac & snuff it right out but I guess monopolies commission wouldn;t have that, someone has developed something to be the world leader, what's wrong with that, BG doesn;t use his power to unfairly treat the competition, he is just a million times more successful, deal with it.
Maybe Mac should publicly denounce these virus spreaders seeing as it only affects pc's/MS or Bill should do some nice Mac ones just for them.
As with the afor mentioned, & in Highlander, there can be only one & quite right too, you take the best & that's it, the rest should be consigned to history.
People who use Macs, a lot are designers, ask them why, most will have no idea as in it's just a clicky clucky group to be in, they may say because of software, load of rubbish.
Guy had just said that to me then his Mac crashed, I said that's why they have handles on the case, he said why, I said so you can chuck the blooming thing out the window.
Mac should get over themselves, MS won, end of.
People think Macs are cool, just as people with mohicans think they are cool, so what, I don't want a mohican, some people think HD DVD & Betamax is cool, so what.
I am a designer but use PC's, I like to be compatible with the rest of the world & in the beginning there was naff all software for the mac available.
Maybe Bill Gates should buy Mac & snuff it right out but I guess monopolies commission wouldn;t have that, someone has developed something to be the world leader, what's wrong with that, BG doesn;t use his power to unfairly treat the competition, he is just a million times more successful, deal with it.
Maybe Mac should publicly denounce these virus spreaders seeing as it only affects pc's/MS or Bill should do some nice Mac ones just for them.
As with the afor mentioned, & in Highlander, there can be only one & quite right too, you take the best & that's it, the rest should be consigned to history.
How am I supposed to take this diatribe seriously when it's logically flawed and a grammatical and typographical mess? That's right, I just won't. You're basically just trolling here.
But in case you're not trolling:
It's not Apple's fault that Microsoft couldn't use long-established security development techniques. If you ignore history, you will repeat history. Computer viruses existed before Windows was made, other operating systems adapted and found ways to minimize them and most of the industry developed best practices. Microsoft ignored that body of work. We've already seen what a software monoculture can do. If you can't acknowledge that, then you're simply beyond help.
If you think Windows is the best because it's the most popular, then you need to apply that to McDonald's and try telling us McDonald's is the best restaurant. It's pedestrian logical fallacies like this that tell me that you don't know what you're talking about.
People who use Macs, a lot are designers, ask them why, most will have no idea as in it's just a clicky clucky group to be in, they may say because of software, load of rubbish.
Guy had just said that to me then his Mac crashed, I said that's why they have handles on the case, he said why, I said so you can chuck the blooming thing out the window.
Mac should get over themselves, MS won, end of.
People think Macs are cool, just as people with mohicans think they are cool, so what, I don't want a mohican, some people think HD DVD & Betamax is cool, so what.
I am a designer but use PC's, I like to be compatible with the rest of the world & in the beginning there was naff all software for the mac available.
Maybe Bill Gates should buy Mac & snuff it right out but I guess monopolies commission wouldn;t have that, someone has developed something to be the world leader, what's wrong with that, BG doesn;t use his power to unfairly treat the competition, he is just a million times more successful, deal with it.
Maybe Mac should publicly denounce these virus spreaders seeing as it only affects pc's/MS or Bill should do some nice Mac ones just for them.
As with the afor mentioned, & in Highlander, there can be only one & quite right too, you take the best & that's it, the rest should be consigned to history.
Wow am I reading this wrong, or are you in the wrong forum area?
I'v been using Mac for a long time. Back in the begin there WAS NOT any good graphic software for PC's, so begin Apple. I for one, I'm glad this happened.
MY Mac is easier to use, much more FUN to use, crashes a lot LESS then PC's, Looks a whole hell of a lot nicer ? and by the way, why are we comparing Macintosh COMPUTERS to MS software?
In any case, enjoy your PC and I'll ENJOY my Mac.
Oh, Mac's are the dominate computer of choice for graphics, news, print, photo and many other COOL companies around the world for a reason?
Microsoft had better not f**k up with Windows 7 or Apple is gonna be all over them like flies on s**t.
M$ already have f**ked up with Windows 7, afaic: I ran Win7 for over a month, in fact until yesterday, and really tried to make it work. But it really sucks. Bad! The state-of-the-art security management that is Win7's premier claim to fame didn't give a peep when a W32 Trojan snuck in (within a week)! The UI is still contrived, unintuitive, and, well... a bit infantile TBH! Also Win7 doesn't work with trackpad gestures! It only accepts clicking. I was forced to resort to a mouse for navigation. That's a major inconvenience, afaic.
I couldn't find even one application that I preferred to run in Win7 rather than in Leopard.
So I uninstalled Win7 yesterday in utter disappointment.
(And returned 40GBs of HD space to productive use!).
So don't worry: Leopard today already runs buttersmooth rings around Win7.
Snow Leopard hones that to stellar perfection.
Apple's OSX is lightyears ahead of Micro$haft's Windoze.
M$ already have f**ked up with Windows 7, afaic: I ran Win7 for over a month, in fact until yesterday, and really tried to make it work. But it really sucks. Bad! The state-of-the-art security management that is Win7's premier claim to fame didn't give a peep when a W32 Trojan snuck in (within a week)! The UI is still contrived, unintuitive, and, well... a bit infantile TBH! Also Win7 doesn't work with trackpad gestures! It only accepts clicking. I was forced to resort to a mouse for navigation. That's a major inconvenience, afaic.
I couldn't find even one application that I preferred to run in Win7 rather than in Leopard.
So I uninstalled Win7 yesterday in utter disappointment.
(And returned 40GBs of HD space to productive use!).
So don't worry: Leopard today already runs buttersmooth rings around Win7.
Snow Leopard hones that to stellar perfection.
Apple's OSX is lightyears ahead of Micro$haft's Windoze.
I have W7 RC running in BootCamp, just for fun. If someone just has to run Windows, and some must, it will be an improvement over Vista. There are issues with my bluetooth keyboard and mouse. I cannot run the BootCamp extras from the Leopard DVD. If I do, keyboard and mouse will not function at all. W7 Beta would not recognize the Realtek audio drivers, but W7 RC does. My USB turntable does not work with W7 RC. It sees it as a microphone input. Bummer RS, as you probably paid for the VMWare Fusion mentioned in another post. Perhaps we need a thread of Windows programs that people here, either can't or don't want to live without. In some cases, like the business my brother has, it would cost him $$$ to switch everything over to Mac. His Adobe stuff alone would be astronomical. I am fed up with at least one person who has nothing better to do than slam Microsoft.
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Ok look at what I was responding to. You missed my point.
Ok I see. I agree that "revolutionary" is one of those terms that gets thrown around. I agree Apple is big on boosterism, but hey that's what marketing is. I bet every company wishes it had a Steve Jobs like salesperson.
Outside of the marketing hype Apple at the very least has forced the computer industry to change its thinking about what computers are and how they function in peoples lives.
Microsoft and who else? One competitor = not much competition. I wish it were like the automotive industry where not only do you have many competitors, but you even have companies in other countries people have never heard of.
I would reverse that statement to say Windows barely has any competition.
So really it was a matter of Microsoft doing too well and the idea that they could be charging whatever they wanted without anyone knowing it was too much is what got them in trouble.
If I remember correctly, it all started with companies complaining that internet explorer was shipped with the os, and it was even an integral part of the os. From there the whole thing spun into this big frenzy over their hold on the market. Where was Apple in all of this? I remember it was pointed out many times that Microsoft legally ran business in accordance with the law and then got in trouble for doing well.
A lot of things happened before that point in time. By that point MS had been in court numerous times for screwing over numerous companies. The problem with Internet Explorer was at the time Netscape was the largest browser. MS began to prevent OEM's from pre-load any browser other than IE on their machines. That effectively killed Netscape and made IE the number one browser.
Being a monopoly in of itself isn't illegal. iTunes and the iPod have a monopoly but no legal action has been taken against them. Apple has done nothing to prevent others from having an equal opportunity to compete against them.
I believe they can. I think there are a lot of innovative smart people working for Apple, and they can use their profits to expand into the lower price range while offering quality products.
You are probably right - they could do it if they were very careful. Maybe they are waiting for the just perfect moment. And I do wonder what they are planning to do with the outrageous amount of cash they keep.
This discussion always appear to be reduced to the ridiculous.
You make three main points: 1) Value, 2) Customization, 3) Peripherals.
Each of these three are subjective according to the needs of the consumer.
1) A part of this is objective. If you spec out a PC with the same components as a Mac, the difference isn't $1,300. The subjective part is whether a couple hundred dollars extra for a Mac is "value for the dollar." For some people it is, for some people it is not.
2) The HP notebook that I replaced with a MacBook Pro is no more customizable than the MacBook Pro. Now that I think about it, why are you even talking about customization of notebooks?
What notebook has easily replaceable optical drives? The battery was certainly easily replaceable on my HP, it had a habit of falling out and dropping on my feet. And who replaces notebook CPUs? Who even replaces the hard drive on their notebook? I replaced the one in my HP, and the process was a bit advanced for the average computer customer. I had to format, clone, partition, none of which most people know how to do. The only easily replaceable thing was the DDR RAM.
When you talk about value, you talk about appealing to a broad market. And then you start talking about customization, some of which is nonsense and the rest is the exclusive province of people who work with computers professionally.
3) Who the hell uses an Express Card slot in the first place? Seriously. AT&T peddles a 3G network card, and the only other thing I can find on Amazon are devices that are already commonly available on USB or firewire.
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Okay, so what you want in a notebook is a cheap price, has the imaginary feature of full customization down to the CPU, and an express card slot that virtually no one uses.
I think your entire argument is a non sequitur. You deride Apple by contriving a litany of standards not met by any notebook manufacturer. Even the ACUS you mention does not meet the standards you lay in this post. Even though it is a close match, it certainly doesn't "kick the shit out of" the MBP by ay standard other than the size of the screen for the price.
Now if we're talking about desktops, then the discussion is entirely different. I'd probably build my own hackintosh.
ASUS has complete expandability on their notebooks. Many of their machines have MXM slots, which allows me to upgrade the video card. The issue is MXM cards are hard to find.
By making the machine easy to service, such as the optical drive and hard disk, I can perform upgrades without a expensive service call to Apple. Most notebooks have several bays on the bottom of the machine to replace components. Replacing my hard disk in my ASUS A8J takes 3 minutes tops. Two screws. SATA drive. Use Ghost, clone, done. I have done this a couple times to take my machine from an 80GB 5,400 RPM drive to the new Seagate 7200.4, which is significantly faster. I don't need to replace the CPU or the GPU. The screen is fine, so I'm spending $130 for a new drive, rather than spend $1200 on a new machine.
I am sure some Powerbook G4 owners might have said the same thing about your 3rd point. "Who the hell needs a PC Card Slot?" in circa 2001 or 2002. Then USB 2.0 came out and thumb drives came out. Many devices, such as scanners, thumb drives at this time had USB 2.0 support. USB 2.0 made these devices significantly faster. If I owned an iBook at the time it would mean scrapping the machine to buy a new one, or a Powerbook, just to get USB 2.0 support. This is stupid that I would have to pay $1400 for a new machine to get USB 2.0. Come to think of it, this is totally one of Apple's major problems with all their machines, except the Mac Pro.
The same thing is happening now. Think eSATA. My ASUS A8J does not come with eSATA. It comes with USB 2.0 and FW400. I am sure as hell glad that I have an expresscard slot. I can now use eSATA for backup and external storage. ESATA, according to Barefeats.com and Tomshardware.com, kills FW400 and USB 2.0 in performance. Why should I have to pay $2000 for a MBP (retail) to get eSATA capability. Hell even Apple got rid of the FW400 port on the regular Macbooks.
Expandability and serviceability is a good thing even for novice consumers. Consumer takes their notebook to local mom and pop shop (and not GeekSquad, they don't know what the hell they are doing). Consumer complains of slow boot times ever since they bought their machine. Tech finds out that the machine has a slow as hell 4,200 RPM drive. Tech advises to get a 7k320 HItachi or a 7200.4 Seagate drive for their Core1Duo machine from 2006 (as an example).
Tech cleans crap off of machine, does a defrag and then clones. Presto. Machine boots up 60% faster. Consumer pays $65 for the drive and maybe $100 for the labor. Due to the ease of replacing the drive the labor is cheaper and the techs job is easier. Consumer doesn't have to blow $1000 on a new machine, which won't come with a 7,200 RPM drive anyway.
Say the consumer broke the optical drive. Consumer or tech goes on newegg.com. Tech removes one or two screws to replace the optical drive. labor may be $50 and the drive is like $60 on newegg.com. Most standard 15, 14 and 17" notebooks are easy to replace the optical drive. My A8J requires removing one screw. Pull the tray out and pull gently. Remove the plastic faceplate and install on the new drive. Slide drive in, replace screw. I did this to add a HD-DVD drive that I got cheap off of eBay (I have allot of HD-DVD titles, thanks inetvideo.com
Lets do a Mac comparison. Machine is out of warranty. Apple charges a hell of allot more than $100 in labor. Apple will accept the drive from newegg.com but not recommended it because "it's not an official apple part". Consumer pays well over $200 for the same service. Consumer probably pays even more if the machine is a older ibook, Powerbook G4 12" etc do to the excessive steps (see ifixit.com) required. TO be fair the older Macbook plastic models are very nice, as they are easy to replace the hard disk.
The optical drives on the Macbook Pro is a slim line. It requires replacing many more screws and is far harder to do. labor is much higher and the drive is very hard to find.
I have done numerous services on many Mac laptop models. I cannot tell you how much of a pain in the ass it is to replace optical drives and hard disks on iBooks and Powerbooks. We have upgraded the drives on many machines do to poor performance of the factory 4,200 RPM drives and the older machines didn't have DVD-R/+R/DL burning built in. One machine (a PB 12" G4) was a royal pain in the ass to service. It requires removing something like 50 screws and REMOVING THE MOTHERBOARD to replace the optical drive. Apple wanted $350 to replace the drive with the same crappy CDRW model that broke.
The M70 does kick the crap out of the MBP for the money. Better video card, same resolution screen etc. It's not thin, it's not "sexy", no aluminum, no mag safe and no backlit keyboard. Big deal. Hardware is hardware.
The chipset is the same, it has the same Core2Duo CPU, same amount of ram, same FSB, same quality screen, same ACPI interface etc. And it can run OSX. It also costs $1300 less.
Apple's premium may be worth a couple hundred dollars to some. I highly doubt most consumers will be able to justify the massive difference in price between a MBP and a standard ASUS/MSI/HP/Whatever machine. Marketshare shows that this is true, as Apple's overall notebook marketshare when compared to everyone else is still pretty small (but allot better than it used to be)
The M70 does kick the crap out of the MBP for the money. Better video card, same resolution screen etc. It's not thin, it's not "sexy", no aluminum, no mag safe and no backlit keyboard. Big deal. Hardware is hardware.
The chipset is the same, it has the same Core2Duo CPU, same amount of ram, same FSB, same quality screen, same ACPI interface etc. And it can run OSX. It also costs $1300 less.
So:
Positives for M70:
Better GPU
Positives for MacBook Pro:
Thinner
Aluminium
Industrial Design
Mag Safe
Backlit Keyboard
Glass multi-touch trackpad
Mmm. Precisely. Hardware is hardware.
Fortunately, Apple do not sell to the "majority" in their business model. Fortunately as well, there are plenty for whom that 0.5" and OSX is well worth that $1300.
Again.
So:
Positives for M70:
Better GPU
Positives for MacBook Pro:
Thinner
Aluminium
Industrial Design
Mag Safe
Backlit Keyboard
Glass multi-touch trackpad
Mmm. Precisely. Hardware is hardware.
Ugh. Until someone can dredge up the parts list and bring fact to the cost of manufacturing a mac book pro, we'll continue to run in circles and base everything on a matter of opinion.
The only fact we can all agree on is the fact that Apple's market share falls considerably short to PC's. For your average consumer looking for a notebook, the aforementioned features don't translate to the price difference to a comparable PC.
This reminds me of the lexus vs toyota arguments my friends would get into in auto tech at school lol. There appears to be no end to this discussion so I'm ducking out. I've stated my thoughts and the reasoning behind them, and that's all I can do.
Or that PC OEMs reliance on Microsoft have left them with a poor business model that neither leads to good products or profits. Because of Windows ubiquity, they have very little to distinguish their products other than price. Because of this it is very tempting to cut costs by cutting quality. Of course Sony and others have tried to make PCs into luxury items with their VAIO range, but due to the lack of real differentiation, the market hasn't really rewarded this strategy. Margins are really thin and many OEMs are struggling. The general PC market mainly benefits Microsoft, no one else. HP is No. 1, but they have significant and substantial other areas of interests to help profits.
Care to name an alternative OS that OEMs should be using? Many buyers returned their Ubuntu netbooks because they couldn't use them. Much as I love Linux, its not as user friendly as Windows, and certainly isn't as familiar.
Are you referring to VGA? Do you realize how out of date and lacking VGA is? If not, go to Wikipedia and read up on it.
Regardless of how out of date it is, most TV/monitor comboes come with VGA not DVI. Isn't this the intended use for Mac Mini's?
I can't believe the arrogance of Windows lovers who are somehow threatened by the Mac and it's 5% market share. Why are they so concerned about what we spend on our computers?
I think the Windows lovers are just jealous and feel the need to defend a crap OS that requires the most powerful hardware just to run smoothly. They overlook the one thing these MS ads ignore for a good reason: OSX.
Apple started it by insulting PC users and stereotyping them in their advert campaigns. Windows users are not jealous, merely angry that some poncey Apple owner looks down on them because they put price as a deciding factor in what PC they buy.
No matter how elegant an OS Apple make, they can't really make web surfing, email and Office much easier to do than on Windows. This is 90% of computer activity, and a PC will do all these things just as well as a Mac. The guy who said the average user wants to edit videos is lying through his teeth, or has only lots of very creative and rich friends.
The people who ask me for help with their computers would be just as baffled by their Mac. Someone who can't setup his new ipod because he doesn't have the latest iTunes will be just as confused using Apple's Software Update as he would be downloading from Apple's site. Someone who can't make a simple Powerpoint presentation consisting of pictures only is not going to find that task any easier on a Mac.
Its true that Macs are more secure, but really they haven't been tested anywhere near the level Windows has. When the day comes and the average idiot is using a Mac, and he gets a pop up saying he is missing Antivirus 2019 and he not only clicks the link to download but enters his password too when it asks, then we will see if Macs can stand up to the real security threat, user ignorance.
Regardless of how out of date it is, most TV/monitor comboes come with VGA not DVI. Isn't this the intended use for Mac Mini's?
If it was Apple's intended use they would have included a VGA out on the Mini or a VGA adapter. If you think that keeping up with legacy ports just because they are common then how does progress happen? Apple moved completely to USB before anyone else, getting rid of the large and slow Parallel and serial ports on computers.
Every Mac does optical out on the headphone port with the right connector, so you needn't worry about getting surround out to your system.
I guess by "serial connector" you mean VGA? Any Mac can connect to a VGA port with a cheap adapter. Although I'm not sure why I'd ever want to use it, since it's just there to accommodate all those legacy PCs with no other options, and anyone who has a machine with a more up to date video out (including every Mac) would use the HDMI or DVI for the improved image quality.
HDMI would be slightly tidier, but it's not as if Macs are hopelessly crippled in this respect.
He means Dolby TRUEHD and DTS-HD, which are vastly superior to the stanrdard Dolby Digital (which is a old as hell standard). You need to transmit audio over HDMI to support hose formats. DisplayPOrt is very similar to HDMI, sans the higher cost licensing. DisplayPORT supports higher resolution displays, and *tah dah* eliminates the small licensing cost to make Apple more money, just like when they decided to save $2 per Macbook and to eliminate Firewire and NOT make an ExpressCard slot available so someone could add it.
Apple doesn;t need that however as they DO NOT SUPPORT HD-DVD or Blu-Ray playback and thus probably don't see a need to support those formats because it compete's with their own business model (selling movies diretly off of iTunes, which is inferior in sound and picture quality).
... just like when they decided to save $2 per Macbook and to eliminate Firewire and NOT make an ExpressCard slot available so someone could add it.
Where would these go in the MacBook?
If it was Apple's intended use they would have included a VGA out on the Mini or a VGA adapter. If you think that keeping up with legacy ports just because they are common then how does progress happen? Apple moved completely to USB before anyone else, getting rid of the large and slow Parallel and serial ports on computers.
Isn't the Mac Mini the one that comes without a screen? The one that is most suitable for sitting under a TV as a Media Centre? They used to sell them with the Apple Remote. Seems to be a an oversight on Apple's part if I then have to buy another adapter to make it work with my TV. Aren't Macs the machines that "just work"?
Apple seems to have a bumpy history with ports, considering my iBook G4 will only boot off an external firewire drive, and the Mac Mini doesn't have an HDMI out. Almost like Apple does what it pleases and the rest of the technology world be damned.
Isn't the Mac Mini the one that comes without a screen? The one that is most suitable for sitting under a TV as a Media Centre? Seems to be a an oversight on Apple's part if I then have to buy another adapter to make it work with my TV. Aren't Macs the machines that "just work"?
Apple seems to have a bumpy history with ports, considering my iBook G4 will only boot off an external firewire drive, and the Mac Mini doesn't have an HDMI out. Almost like Apple does what it pleases and the rest of the technology world be damned.
You don't seem to understand what Apple is marketing the Mac Mini as. The Mac Mini is their low cost headless Mac PC while the AppleTV is designed to be connected to your media center as an extension of iTunes.
VHS or Betamax
BLU RAY or HD DVD???
is how I see this choice.
People who use Macs, a lot are designers, ask them why, most will have no idea as in it's just a clicky clucky group to be in, they may say because of software, load of rubbish.
Guy had just said that to me then his Mac crashed, I said that's why they have handles on the case, he said why, I said so you can chuck the blooming thing out the window.
Mac should get over themselves, MS won, end of.
People think Macs are cool, just as people with mohicans think they are cool, so what, I don't want a mohican, some people think HD DVD & Betamax is cool, so what.
I am a designer but use PC's, I like to be compatible with the rest of the world & in the beginning there was naff all software for the mac available.
Maybe Bill Gates should buy Mac & snuff it right out but I guess monopolies commission wouldn;t have that, someone has developed something to be the world leader, what's wrong with that, BG doesn;t use his power to unfairly treat the competition, he is just a million times more successful, deal with it.
Maybe Mac should publicly denounce these virus spreaders seeing as it only affects pc's/MS or Bill should do some nice Mac ones just for them.
As with the afor mentioned, & in Highlander, there can be only one & quite right too, you take the best & that's it, the rest should be consigned to history.
Ford Escort or Herbie style VW Beetle
VHS or Betamax
BLU RAY or HD DVD???
is how I see this choice.
People who use Macs, a lot are designers, ask them why, most will have no idea as in it's just a clicky clucky group to be in, they may say because of software, load of rubbish.
Guy had just said that to me then his Mac crashed, I said that's why they have handles on the case, he said why, I said so you can chuck the blooming thing out the window.
Mac should get over themselves, MS won, end of.
People think Macs are cool, just as people with mohicans think they are cool, so what, I don't want a mohican, some people think HD DVD & Betamax is cool, so what.
I am a designer but use PC's, I like to be compatible with the rest of the world & in the beginning there was naff all software for the mac available.
Maybe Bill Gates should buy Mac & snuff it right out but I guess monopolies commission wouldn;t have that, someone has developed something to be the world leader, what's wrong with that, BG doesn;t use his power to unfairly treat the competition, he is just a million times more successful, deal with it.
Maybe Mac should publicly denounce these virus spreaders seeing as it only affects pc's/MS or Bill should do some nice Mac ones just for them.
As with the afor mentioned, & in Highlander, there can be only one & quite right too, you take the best & that's it, the rest should be consigned to history.
How am I supposed to take this diatribe seriously when it's logically flawed and a grammatical and typographical mess? That's right, I just won't. You're basically just trolling here.
But in case you're not trolling:
It's not Apple's fault that Microsoft couldn't use long-established security development techniques. If you ignore history, you will repeat history. Computer viruses existed before Windows was made, other operating systems adapted and found ways to minimize them and most of the industry developed best practices. Microsoft ignored that body of work. We've already seen what a software monoculture can do. If you can't acknowledge that, then you're simply beyond help.
If you think Windows is the best because it's the most popular, then you need to apply that to McDonald's and try telling us McDonald's is the best restaurant. It's pedestrian logical fallacies like this that tell me that you don't know what you're talking about.
Ford Escort or Herbie style VW Beetle
VHS or Betamax
BLU RAY or HD DVD???
is how I see this choice.
People who use Macs, a lot are designers, ask them why, most will have no idea as in it's just a clicky clucky group to be in, they may say because of software, load of rubbish.
Guy had just said that to me then his Mac crashed, I said that's why they have handles on the case, he said why, I said so you can chuck the blooming thing out the window.
Mac should get over themselves, MS won, end of.
People think Macs are cool, just as people with mohicans think they are cool, so what, I don't want a mohican, some people think HD DVD & Betamax is cool, so what.
I am a designer but use PC's, I like to be compatible with the rest of the world & in the beginning there was naff all software for the mac available.
Maybe Bill Gates should buy Mac & snuff it right out but I guess monopolies commission wouldn;t have that, someone has developed something to be the world leader, what's wrong with that, BG doesn;t use his power to unfairly treat the competition, he is just a million times more successful, deal with it.
Maybe Mac should publicly denounce these virus spreaders seeing as it only affects pc's/MS or Bill should do some nice Mac ones just for them.
As with the afor mentioned, & in Highlander, there can be only one & quite right too, you take the best & that's it, the rest should be consigned to history.
Wow am I reading this wrong, or are you in the wrong forum area?
I'v been using Mac for a long time. Back in the begin there WAS NOT any good graphic software for PC's, so begin Apple. I for one, I'm glad this happened.
MY Mac is easier to use, much more FUN to use, crashes a lot LESS then PC's, Looks a whole hell of a lot nicer ? and by the way, why are we comparing Macintosh COMPUTERS to MS software?
In any case, enjoy your PC and I'll ENJOY my Mac.
Oh, Mac's are the dominate computer of choice for graphics, news, print, photo and many other COOL companies around the world for a reason?
Microsoft had better not f**k up with Windows 7 or Apple is gonna be all over them like flies on s**t.
M$ already have f**ked up with Windows 7, afaic: I ran Win7 for over a month, in fact until yesterday, and really tried to make it work. But it really sucks. Bad! The state-of-the-art security management that is Win7's premier claim to fame didn't give a peep when a W32 Trojan snuck in (within a week)! The UI is still contrived, unintuitive, and, well... a bit infantile TBH! Also Win7 doesn't work with trackpad gestures! It only accepts clicking. I was forced to resort to a mouse for navigation. That's a major inconvenience, afaic.
I couldn't find even one application that I preferred to run in Win7 rather than in Leopard.
So I uninstalled Win7 yesterday in utter disappointment.
(And returned 40GBs of HD space to productive use!).
So don't worry: Leopard today already runs buttersmooth rings around Win7.
Snow Leopard hones that to stellar perfection.
Apple's OSX is lightyears ahead of Micro$haft's Windoze.
M$ already have f**ked up with Windows 7, afaic: I ran Win7 for over a month, in fact until yesterday, and really tried to make it work. But it really sucks. Bad! The state-of-the-art security management that is Win7's premier claim to fame didn't give a peep when a W32 Trojan snuck in (within a week)! The UI is still contrived, unintuitive, and, well... a bit infantile TBH! Also Win7 doesn't work with trackpad gestures! It only accepts clicking. I was forced to resort to a mouse for navigation. That's a major inconvenience, afaic.
I couldn't find even one application that I preferred to run in Win7 rather than in Leopard.
So I uninstalled Win7 yesterday in utter disappointment.
(And returned 40GBs of HD space to productive use!).
So don't worry: Leopard today already runs buttersmooth rings around Win7.
Snow Leopard hones that to stellar perfection.
Apple's OSX is lightyears ahead of Micro$haft's Windoze.
I have W7 RC running in BootCamp, just for fun. If someone just has to run Windows, and some must, it will be an improvement over Vista. There are issues with my bluetooth keyboard and mouse. I cannot run the BootCamp extras from the Leopard DVD. If I do, keyboard and mouse will not function at all. W7 Beta would not recognize the Realtek audio drivers, but W7 RC does. My USB turntable does not work with W7 RC. It sees it as a microphone input. Bummer RS, as you probably paid for the VMWare Fusion mentioned in another post. Perhaps we need a thread of Windows programs that people here, either can't or don't want to live without. In some cases, like the business my brother has, it would cost him $$$ to switch everything over to Mac. His Adobe stuff alone would be astronomical. I am fed up with at least one person who has nothing better to do than slam Microsoft.