Yea, Yea, This supposed product will mainly be released, if ever, for the entertainment of those of us on this site, but I have an odd question:
Does anyone know if there is an equivalent site, like AI, for Microsoft? Like, Microsoft Insider, or whatever would be the clever moniker for a Microsoft Site?
I would love to read it. And read the Apple bashing. Just to see what the reasoning was like.
Anyone? Anyone know the effect? Bueller? Anyone?
I stumble upon them from time to time... but I haven't found a true "Microsoft Insider" or "Think Windows" or anything like that. Yeah, it would be nice to see it for the comparison.
Me, I don't like either company, but use both because I have to. And Linux too. But that's hard to get exactly what you want on it too.
It is incredible how - according to AppleInsider - everything MS does is only because of Apple. Blackberry is still holding huge majority of businesses, and one of major points about Windows Mobile is integration with Exchange, but hey - why would MS want to compete with them, eh? There is only Apple and iPhone.
You're right about one thing. Promoting one point of view reinforces a certain amount of tunnel vision.
Everyone here is bashing Microsoft for making bad products, but then they are bashing them for trying to improve their products. What's the deal?
Microsoft is not just another company like Apple and most other companies that have not been convicted of illegal use of monopoly power. Many (most?) people have no memory of when Microsoft could commercially destroy an innovative new rival. The most famous example being Netscape and the browser. An earlier example was Lotus 123 which included some rhyme about how updates to DOS would not ship until 123 would crash. PenPoint was an innovative OS that Microsoft spent money and effort to crush. After they succeeded in its destruction they dropped all further development since they had accomplished their objective. Venture capitalists eventually learned the lesson and for years would not bother backing ventures that might be perceived as a threat of any sort to Microsoft and its OS monopoly.
The internet has gradually changed the landscape so this description may seem fictional but even today Microsoft continues to "innovate" the same way. So when they copy something it is hard for many of us to ignore all the earlier lessons of history. Microsoft elicits hatred because they worked hard to earn it.
ah, good point. Newton message pad had calendar and appointments before palm came out with their device. That was just an ill-thought example. There are plenty of things I could have used. In retrospect I could have said apple is copying windows mobile by introducing copy and paste into 3.0 ;P
Well the response was to everyone's saying they are building a phone. Your attempt at conveying your message by saying as little as possible was a noble attempt
The Apple phone project was called Purple. The EDGE iPhone was known as Purple 2.
From the intense amount of journalism I've pored over it seems Purple 1 was *kind of* related to that joke slide from the iPhone keynote: one of the earliest concepts was to be an iPod video of sorts that was also a cell phone.
Of course, making the whole thing into a real software platform was a far, far better plan.
Unbelievable. MS is the biggest case of "wannabe" I have ever seen in my life.
If it is true I do hope industry and consumers realize what MS is all about.
MSs business model is a failure in my opinion, and it is becoming more and more evident each day.
How true.
Having absolute majority - and monopoly - in OS and Office apps market can't be anything but failure.[/sarcasm]
The only problem MS have right now is - they are doing so great with their business model, regarding above mentioned markets, that they don't even try hard elsewhere, thus we have half-hearted attempts like Zune. But they do have potential - and funds. And there are talented people working - or wanting to work for them; heck, there are extremely talented people even working for Palm, GM, Chrysler...
I want MS to release all that raw talent and come out with great product - simply because I want Apple to come with revolutionary iPhone 3 or iPhone 4, rather than adding minor tweaks (like video recording, copy&paste) that should have been present from the beginning. I don't want Apple to fall asleep like Intel did before, releasing overpriced, overheating CPUs that were just a little speed-ups from previous generations - until AMD smacked them up with Athlon 64 and X2 - and forced them to reinvent themselves with Core 2 technology.
Microsoft is not just another company like Apple and most other companies that have not been convicted of illegal use of monopoly power. Many (most?) people have no memory of when Microsoft could commercially destroy an innovative new rival. The most famous example being Netscape and the browser. An earlier example was Lotus 123 which included some rhyme about how updates to DOS would not ship until 123 would crash. PenPoint was an innovative OS that Microsoft spent money and effort to crush. After they succeeded in its destruction they dropped all further development since they had accomplished their objective. Venture capitalists eventually learned the lesson and for years would not bother backing ventures that might be perceived as a threat of any sort to Microsoft and its OS monopoly.
The internet has gradually changed the landscape so this description may seem fictional but even today Microsoft continues to "innovate" the same way. So when they copy something it is hard for many of us to ignore all the earlier lessons of history. Microsoft elicits hatred because they worked hard to earn it.
Everything you just said makes perfect sense, but as i said before, now that they are the underdog in a market like this, they shouldn't be bashed when trying to contend with Apple. I know they have a bad rep, but I think people are missing the bigger picture. I mean, the one thing I like most about the iphone is the excitement it has spurred in the smartphone/ppc market. Look at phones 2 years ago compared to now. It's wild.
I'm not one to defend Microsoft until my face turns blue btw. I just think the more companies there are in the smartphone/ppc market the better. Everyone here should feel the same way but they let their hatred for ms cloud their vision.
Now, lets just hope apple can do to the netbook market what they did to the smartphone market.
What's the deal? The deal is that Microsoft is a company devoid of any sense of innovation, and only came to dominate the market because of their highly suspect business practices. There's nothing wrong with improving your products, but you deserve to be mocked when the only reason you're actually bothering with such improvement is because you've already had your ASS thoroughly handed to you by the competition. How many times must Microsoft "miss the boat" on hit products before people realize we no longer need them around?
I'd like to see what would world look like the next minute everyone decide they don't need MS any more and turn off all their Windows servers, workstations...
Oh, wait; on the second thought, I really would not like to see that mess.
I'd like to see what would world look like the next minute everyone decide they don't need MS any more and turn off all their Windows servers, workstations...
Oh, wait; on the second thought, I really would not like to see that mess.
You've already seen the mess, it's name is AIG, and it should be turned off.
Microsoft Corp. plans to take aim at Apple's iPhone with its own version of a touch-screen handset that could launch on Verizon's network sometime early in 2010...
This is bad news for the world, if Apple bites and goes early with Verizon. Not that the iPhone won't be able to hold up pretty well against such competition, but it will divert valuable people at Apple from working on the best long-term solutions towards supporting dead-end CDMA technology instead.
nobody has ever said I stunk because my name says I stink before.
Then I shall join in with the chorus. You stink so bad you make Right Guard turn left, Speed Stick slow down, and you make Sure confused.
Even so, our railing on obvious trolls amounts to nothing more than wasted bits until we have the power to eject them from the forum. What surprises me is that trolls are allowed to participate in their underhanded trolling activities in this forum without getting the boot, much less a stern warning. (Anyone self-named "iStink" should immediately fall under suspicion, and posts that so obviously are 180 degrees out of phase with this site's very title should clearly show that the author of such posts is a troll.)
Therefore, in the absence of better moderation on this forum, I can only hope that divine intervention will bring lightening strikes down upon the homes of these wicked trolls and bring "the rest of us" some relief and joy in the process.
Microsoft or Verizon won't strongarm Apple into making a deal. No way. Consider Verizon dead to Apple now.
Exactly. Apple is truly riding high with this technology at this point, and I do not see them trying to make too many deals. Certainly not with anyone that tries to 'strongarm' them, and even more unlikely with CDMA.
In yesterday's earnings announcement, Verizon's CEO, Seidenberg said (according to the paraphrase in the Wall Street Journal) that "it is unlikely that [Verizon] and Apple would partner to create a device tailored to Verizon's current network,..... CDMA."
I am having trouble believing this story.
Add: When I said "...this story.." I actually meant the story about Apple negotiating with Verizon. (I'll just leave this comment in here).
Why are you paying so much sick and obsessive attention to everything MS does, or is gossiped to be doing..? Hate, fear..? I'm really not getting it.
It's hilarious, that's why. In the current (or maybe now dated) vernacular, M$ is an epic fail when it comes to their attempts to innovate, or is it replicate?
I'm certain this phone will fall short in similar ways the Zune did...just enough to make it almost cool but mostly -meh-
M$'s best attempts at entering the markets Apple has been, and appears to be, developing would best be started by killing off Apple's design team to give their own a fair chance.
I agree. The contempt between Apple fanboys and Microsoft fanboys is only out done by the contempt that exists between Conservatives and Liberals here in the States
that's too general. how about pro-life and pro-choice or pornstars and vegans. well, you cant be real vegans if you give blowjobs
I'm not here to troll, just offer a point of view that's not blinded by any kind of loyalty. Just because I have an opinion different than yours doesn't mean I'm trolling. Never have I posted anything illogical or completely hateful against apple for no reason.
BTW I use this name on other forums. It stemmed from the Samsung Instinct forums I used to go to when I briefly owned that phone. You can check my profile over at techpowerup.com if you don't believe me.
Anyways, thanks for offering nothing to this thread in terms of an actual discussion on the article. Technically if there's a troll here it's you.
"While Microsoft is involved in the design of the phone's software and hardware,*a third-party*is expected to*make the device, just as Google Inc. has worked closely with partners to make handsets based on its Android operating system," the report says. No further details were reported.
I guess this allows Microsoft to not lose as much as they did on the Zune but still be in control of the device over all? Sounds like a failure in the works. Much like the Zune
Feature parity with your competition is one thing - but imagine a car commercial that proclaims our vehicles will all have airbags and anti lock brakes in a couple years - when the direct competition has had those features for years already.
LOL, I have a better anology;
Imagine a cell phone company anouncing that they will add an old industry standard feature like MMS sometime this summer. Or a smart phone maker anouncing cut and paste as a revolutionary new feature, or the potential for turn buy turn GPS. Oh wait, no need to imagine, Apple just did that!
I love my iPhone, and it does do some things the competition can't, but it has taken Apple a full two years after initial release to get some basic funtionality in the software. Can MS do it quicker? Maybe maybe not.
As for this rumored device being an iPhone killer, I would bet that if they are reallybuilding a new mobile phone OS, the bigger target is Android. MS is far more concerned about android phones and netbooks eating into the windows laptop market. Iphone is a minor annoyance to MS profits, Google threatens the monopoly because they will support 3rd party devices.
It's hilarious, that's why. In the current (or maybe now dated) vernacular, M$ is an epic fail when it comes to their attempts to innovate, or is it replicate?
I'm certain this phone will fall short in similar ways the Zune did...just enough to make it almost cool but mostly -meh-
M$'s best attempts at entering the markets Apple has been, and appears to be, developing would best be started by killing off Apple's design team to give their own a fair chance.
Don't agree.
MS is in that market for ages, though not overly successful lately. This phone - if there is any at all - will be just another winmobile phone, probably based on new/upgraded winmobile platform (as many others will) and made by a company that already makes winmobile phones. Only difference is, it might have Microsoft name printed instead of/alongside real manufacturer's name.
It will not completely suck because, with all the experience - own and borrowed from the others - it is hard nowadays to make completely useless smart phone; on the other hand, it is more likely to be just another "me, too" product than real killer; most of the phones are, statistically speaking.
And why killing iPhone's design team? It is much more useful to buy them over. Like Palm did with that Pre guy. Each team has many talented people who feel they'd be better project leaders than current one (and some actually might be) and will jump boats if right position - and right money - are on the table.
But all together, there is no real news there... nothing to justify such "enthusiasm".
Everyone here is bashing Microsoft for making bad products, but then they are bashing them for trying to improve their products. What's the deal?
The deal is that Microsoft has not produce a product that seriously begins to compete with Apple's products in literally a decade, and yet Microsoft is consistently perceived as ramping up the competition with Apple.
Look, I'd be perfectly happy to see people talking about Google competing with Apple. I'd be delighted to talk about the people I know who've chucked their iPhones in favor of a G1, the people I know who've stuck by their iPhones, and why.
But media-time spent discussing Microsoft's entries into the markets that Apple's choosing to dominate are sort of a waste of time, and clearly missing the point.
That point, for them what haven't noticed, is that Microsoft is living on their inheritance: they're unable to bring new product to market in anything like a reasonable timeframe, and the products that they have brought to market in the past 5 years (Vista, Zune, Windows Mobile 7) fail to gain traction even with their core userbase or (XBox, 360) fail to produce actual profits.
So, for my own part, I think it's completely reasonable to find Microsoft's entry into a market as laughable. And, yes, I recognize that MS is hardly "entering" the smartphone market, since they've been there since WinCE back in the 1990s; we're really just talking about another semi-generic HTC platform running WM, but this one happen to have Microsoft's name on the front... That's why I appreciate that a lot of the conversation here has been focused on the decisions and negotiations that *do* get made by the guys whose name is on the box (to whit, negotiating with the network provider for what features will be enabled / required / unavailable)
Comments
Yea, Yea, This supposed product will mainly be released, if ever, for the entertainment of those of us on this site, but I have an odd question:
Does anyone know if there is an equivalent site, like AI, for Microsoft? Like, Microsoft Insider, or whatever would be the clever moniker for a Microsoft Site?
I would love to read it. And read the Apple bashing. Just to see what the reasoning was like.
Anyone? Anyone know the effect? Bueller? Anyone?
I stumble upon them from time to time... but I haven't found a true "Microsoft Insider" or "Think Windows" or anything like that. Yeah, it would be nice to see it for the comparison.
Me, I don't like either company, but use both because I have to. And Linux too. But that's hard to get exactly what you want on it too.
First reasonable post in this tread so far.
It is incredible how - according to AppleInsider - everything MS does is only because of Apple. Blackberry is still holding huge majority of businesses, and one of major points about Windows Mobile is integration with Exchange, but hey - why would MS want to compete with them, eh? There is only Apple and iPhone.
You're right about one thing. Promoting one point of view reinforces a certain amount of tunnel vision.
Everyone here is bashing Microsoft for making bad products, but then they are bashing them for trying to improve their products. What's the deal?
Microsoft is not just another company like Apple and most other companies that have not been convicted of illegal use of monopoly power. Many (most?) people have no memory of when Microsoft could commercially destroy an innovative new rival. The most famous example being Netscape and the browser. An earlier example was Lotus 123 which included some rhyme about how updates to DOS would not ship until 123 would crash. PenPoint was an innovative OS that Microsoft spent money and effort to crush. After they succeeded in its destruction they dropped all further development since they had accomplished their objective. Venture capitalists eventually learned the lesson and for years would not bother backing ventures that might be perceived as a threat of any sort to Microsoft and its OS monopoly.
The internet has gradually changed the landscape so this description may seem fictional but even today Microsoft continues to "innovate" the same way. So when they copy something it is hard for many of us to ignore all the earlier lessons of history. Microsoft elicits hatred because they worked hard to earn it.
/ahem, Newton.
ah, good point. Newton message pad had calendar and appointments before palm came out with their device. That was just an ill-thought example. There are plenty of things I could have used. In retrospect I could have said apple is copying windows mobile by introducing copy and paste into 3.0 ;P
#1
#2
See #1
Well the response was to everyone's saying they are building a phone. Your attempt at conveying your message by saying as little as possible was a noble attempt
The Apple phone project was called Purple. The EDGE iPhone was known as Purple 2.
From the intense amount of journalism I've pored over it seems Purple 1 was *kind of* related to that joke slide from the iPhone keynote: one of the earliest concepts was to be an iPod video of sorts that was also a cell phone.
Of course, making the whole thing into a real software platform was a far, far better plan.
This really smells desperation!!
Unbelievable. MS is the biggest case of "wannabe" I have ever seen in my life.
If it is true I do hope industry and consumers realize what MS is all about.
MSs business model is a failure in my opinion, and it is becoming more and more evident each day.
How true.
Having absolute majority - and monopoly - in OS and Office apps market can't be anything but failure.[/sarcasm]
The only problem MS have right now is - they are doing so great with their business model, regarding above mentioned markets, that they don't even try hard elsewhere, thus we have half-hearted attempts like Zune. But they do have potential - and funds. And there are talented people working - or wanting to work for them; heck, there are extremely talented people even working for Palm, GM, Chrysler...
I want MS to release all that raw talent and come out with great product - simply because I want Apple to come with revolutionary iPhone 3 or iPhone 4, rather than adding minor tweaks (like video recording, copy&paste) that should have been present from the beginning. I don't want Apple to fall asleep like Intel did before, releasing overpriced, overheating CPUs that were just a little speed-ups from previous generations - until AMD smacked them up with Athlon 64 and X2 - and forced them to reinvent themselves with Core 2 technology.
Microsoft is not just another company like Apple and most other companies that have not been convicted of illegal use of monopoly power. Many (most?) people have no memory of when Microsoft could commercially destroy an innovative new rival. The most famous example being Netscape and the browser. An earlier example was Lotus 123 which included some rhyme about how updates to DOS would not ship until 123 would crash. PenPoint was an innovative OS that Microsoft spent money and effort to crush. After they succeeded in its destruction they dropped all further development since they had accomplished their objective. Venture capitalists eventually learned the lesson and for years would not bother backing ventures that might be perceived as a threat of any sort to Microsoft and its OS monopoly.
The internet has gradually changed the landscape so this description may seem fictional but even today Microsoft continues to "innovate" the same way. So when they copy something it is hard for many of us to ignore all the earlier lessons of history. Microsoft elicits hatred because they worked hard to earn it.
Everything you just said makes perfect sense, but as i said before, now that they are the underdog in a market like this, they shouldn't be bashed when trying to contend with Apple. I know they have a bad rep, but I think people are missing the bigger picture. I mean, the one thing I like most about the iphone is the excitement it has spurred in the smartphone/ppc market. Look at phones 2 years ago compared to now. It's wild.
I'm not one to defend Microsoft until my face turns blue btw. I just think the more companies there are in the smartphone/ppc market the better. Everyone here should feel the same way but they let their hatred for ms cloud their vision.
Now, lets just hope apple can do to the netbook market what they did to the smartphone market.
What's the deal? The deal is that Microsoft is a company devoid of any sense of innovation, and only came to dominate the market because of their highly suspect business practices. There's nothing wrong with improving your products, but you deserve to be mocked when the only reason you're actually bothering with such improvement is because you've already had your ASS thoroughly handed to you by the competition. How many times must Microsoft "miss the boat" on hit products before people realize we no longer need them around?
I'd like to see what would world look like the next minute everyone decide they don't need MS any more and turn off all their Windows servers, workstations...
Oh, wait; on the second thought, I really would not like to see that mess.
I'd like to see what would world look like the next minute everyone decide they don't need MS any more and turn off all their Windows servers, workstations...
Oh, wait; on the second thought, I really would not like to see that mess.
You've already seen the mess, it's name is AIG, and it should be turned off.
Microsoft Corp. plans to take aim at Apple's iPhone with its own version of a touch-screen handset that could launch on Verizon's network sometime early in 2010...
This is bad news for the world, if Apple bites and goes early with Verizon. Not that the iPhone won't be able to hold up pretty well against such competition, but it will divert valuable people at Apple from working on the best long-term solutions towards supporting dead-end CDMA technology instead.
nobody has ever said I stunk because my name says I stink before.
Then I shall join in with the chorus. You stink so bad you make Right Guard turn left, Speed Stick slow down, and you make Sure confused.
Even so, our railing on obvious trolls amounts to nothing more than wasted bits until we have the power to eject them from the forum. What surprises me is that trolls are allowed to participate in their underhanded trolling activities in this forum without getting the boot, much less a stern warning. (Anyone self-named "iStink" should immediately fall under suspicion, and posts that so obviously are 180 degrees out of phase with this site's very title should clearly show that the author of such posts is a troll.)
Therefore, in the absence of better moderation on this forum, I can only hope that divine intervention will bring lightening strikes down upon the homes of these wicked trolls and bring "the rest of us" some relief and joy in the process.
Microsoft or Verizon won't strongarm Apple into making a deal. No way. Consider Verizon dead to Apple now.
Exactly. Apple is truly riding high with this technology at this point, and I do not see them trying to make too many deals. Certainly not with anyone that tries to 'strongarm' them, and even more unlikely with CDMA.
In yesterday's earnings announcement, Verizon's CEO, Seidenberg said (according to the paraphrase in the Wall Street Journal) that "it is unlikely that [Verizon] and Apple would partner to create a device tailored to Verizon's current network,..... CDMA."
I am having trouble believing this story.
Add: When I said "...this story.." I actually meant the story about Apple negotiating with Verizon. (I'll just leave this comment in here).
First reasonable post in this tread so far.
Why are you paying so much sick and obsessive attention to everything MS does, or is gossiped to be doing..? Hate, fear..? I'm really not getting it.
It's hilarious, that's why. In the current (or maybe now dated) vernacular, M$ is an epic fail when it comes to their attempts to innovate, or is it replicate?
I'm certain this phone will fall short in similar ways the Zune did...just enough to make it almost cool but mostly -meh-
M$'s best attempts at entering the markets Apple has been, and appears to be, developing would best be started by killing off Apple's design team to give their own a fair chance.
I agree. The contempt between Apple fanboys and Microsoft fanboys is only out done by the contempt that exists between Conservatives and Liberals here in the States
that's too general. how about pro-life and pro-choice or pornstars and vegans. well, you cant be real vegans if you give blowjobs
BTW I use this name on other forums. It stemmed from the Samsung Instinct forums I used to go to when I briefly owned that phone. You can check my profile over at techpowerup.com if you don't believe me.
Anyways, thanks for offering nothing to this thread in terms of an actual discussion on the article. Technically if there's a troll here it's you.
"While Microsoft is involved in the design of the phone's software and hardware,*a third-party*is expected to*make the device, just as Google Inc. has worked closely with partners to make handsets based on its Android operating system," the report says. No further details were reported.
[ View this article at AppleInsider.com ]
Maybe already said but.....
I guess this allows Microsoft to not lose as much as they did on the Zune but still be in control of the device over all? Sounds like a failure in the works. Much like the Zune
Feature parity with your competition is one thing - but imagine a car commercial that proclaims our vehicles will all have airbags and anti lock brakes in a couple years - when the direct competition has had those features for years already.
LOL, I have a better anology;
Imagine a cell phone company anouncing that they will add an old industry standard feature like MMS sometime this summer. Or a smart phone maker anouncing cut and paste as a revolutionary new feature, or the potential for turn buy turn GPS. Oh wait, no need to imagine, Apple just did that!
I love my iPhone, and it does do some things the competition can't, but it has taken Apple a full two years after initial release to get some basic funtionality in the software. Can MS do it quicker? Maybe maybe not.
As for this rumored device being an iPhone killer, I would bet that if they are reallybuilding a new mobile phone OS, the bigger target is Android. MS is far more concerned about android phones and netbooks eating into the windows laptop market. Iphone is a minor annoyance to MS profits, Google threatens the monopoly because they will support 3rd party devices.
It's hilarious, that's why. In the current (or maybe now dated) vernacular, M$ is an epic fail when it comes to their attempts to innovate, or is it replicate?
I'm certain this phone will fall short in similar ways the Zune did...just enough to make it almost cool but mostly -meh-
M$'s best attempts at entering the markets Apple has been, and appears to be, developing would best be started by killing off Apple's design team to give their own a fair chance.
Don't agree.
MS is in that market for ages, though not overly successful lately. This phone - if there is any at all - will be just another winmobile phone, probably based on new/upgraded winmobile platform (as many others will) and made by a company that already makes winmobile phones. Only difference is, it might have Microsoft name printed instead of/alongside real manufacturer's name.
It will not completely suck because, with all the experience - own and borrowed from the others - it is hard nowadays to make completely useless smart phone; on the other hand, it is more likely to be just another "me, too" product than real killer; most of the phones are, statistically speaking.
And why killing iPhone's design team? It is much more useful to buy them over. Like Palm did with that Pre guy. Each team has many talented people who feel they'd be better project leaders than current one (and some actually might be) and will jump boats if right position - and right money - are on the table.
But all together, there is no real news there... nothing to justify such "enthusiasm".
Everyone here is bashing Microsoft for making bad products, but then they are bashing them for trying to improve their products. What's the deal?
The deal is that Microsoft has not produce a product that seriously begins to compete with Apple's products in literally a decade, and yet Microsoft is consistently perceived as ramping up the competition with Apple.
Look, I'd be perfectly happy to see people talking about Google competing with Apple. I'd be delighted to talk about the people I know who've chucked their iPhones in favor of a G1, the people I know who've stuck by their iPhones, and why.
But media-time spent discussing Microsoft's entries into the markets that Apple's choosing to dominate are sort of a waste of time, and clearly missing the point.
That point, for them what haven't noticed, is that Microsoft is living on their inheritance: they're unable to bring new product to market in anything like a reasonable timeframe, and the products that they have brought to market in the past 5 years (Vista, Zune, Windows Mobile 7) fail to gain traction even with their core userbase or (XBox, 360) fail to produce actual profits.
So, for my own part, I think it's completely reasonable to find Microsoft's entry into a market as laughable. And, yes, I recognize that MS is hardly "entering" the smartphone market, since they've been there since WinCE back in the 1990s; we're really just talking about another semi-generic HTC platform running WM, but this one happen to have Microsoft's name on the front... That's why I appreciate that a lot of the conversation here has been focused on the decisions and negotiations that *do* get made by the guys whose name is on the box (to whit, negotiating with the network provider for what features will be enabled / required / unavailable)