Psystar claims Apple asking for non-existent, redundant info

Posted:
in General Discussion edited January 2014
Mac clone maker Psystar has shot back at accusations that it was withholding important information in Apple's lawsuit against it, arguing that it's being asked to invent documents that don't exist or which are no longer necessary.



Filed earlier this week, the response letter rejects out of hand Apple's complaints that Psystar hasn't produced formal financial statements indicating its worth. Instead, it contends that many of the documents for balance, profit-and-loss, or other characteristics of its finances simply don't (and don't need to) exist.



The Florida PC assembler insists that has never produced any monthly, quarterly or yearly statements and rebuffs Apple's notion that drafts exist of a financial projection meant to garner early funding; although a final document was made for the venture capitalists who made the investment, Psystar claims that it never made long-term backups of the work-in-progress documents. Psystar chief Rudy Pedraza is already on record as having said this, the defense attorneys say.



Further going on the defensive, the company adds that it has produced statements, invoices and other documents whenever Apple has requested them and they were available. However, it adds that "some documents" were lost when Psystar moved to its current workspace and doesn't say what these might have been. The company also positions itself as more efficient than Apple and says that it doesn't create paper copies from electronic documents when they don't have a reason to be.



Accordingly, the clone designer says it has done all it can to follow federal rules and goes so far as to imply that Apple is trying to bully it out of court despite Psystar's attempts to follow the letter of the law.



"Unlike Apple, Psystar is a small start-up company with limited resources," the response letter reads. "Psystar has, due to Apple's discovery tactics, focused much of those resources on litigation... because Apple wants a document to exist does not make it so."



In providing the response, the fledgling company is fighting a battle of survival just to survive the discovery phase, where both parties in the case need to collect as much legally allowable evidence as possible ahead of the formal trial due to start in November. A successful claim by Apple of obstruction could derail Psystar's defense before it ever has an opportunity to present its case in court.
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Comments

  • Reply 1 of 331
    dr millmossdr millmoss Posts: 5,403member
    My first reaction is this sounds like undiluted hogwash. My second reaction is that there's probably some truth to Psystar's claim that they're run by a bunch of amateurs.
  • Reply 2 of 331
    lkrupplkrupp Posts: 7,067member
    I'm enjoying watching this dog and pony show develop. A business that doesn't bother to keep financial information regarding its operations, expenses, and profits? I'll bet the IRS will find this interesting as well.
  • Reply 3 of 331
    solipsismsolipsism Posts: 25,726member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by AppleInsider View Post


    The company also positions itself as more efficient than Apple and says that it doesn't create paper copies from electronic documents when they don't have a reason to be.



    If only there was a way to electronically send files to people. Some sort of an electronic mail, if you will.
  • Reply 4 of 331
    g3prog3pro Posts: 669member
    Apple will go to just about any length to prevent competition.



    Truly sad. Apple has sunk to new lows.
  • Reply 5 of 331
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by solipsism View Post


    If only there was a way to electronically send files to people. Some sort of an electronic mail, if you will.



    Careful, you might be treading on someone copyright or better yet, asking to be taken to court due to patent violations...







    My two cents of attempted humor...
  • Reply 6 of 331
    jlangankijlanganki Posts: 26member
    Apple should just give away Mac OS X and charge you $1 every time your computer boots up, regardless of what hardware it's running on. This is fair for everyone.
  • Reply 7 of 331
    steviet02steviet02 Posts: 594member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by solipsism View Post


    If only there was a way to electronically send files to people. Some sort of an electronic mail, if you will.



    Just in case you didn't fully understand what he meant... If you have only an email and delete it without printing it out then its gone. I'm not saying it doesn't sound fishy but your comment made it sound like they had the email, when it's clear they are saying it was 'lost in the move'.
  • Reply 8 of 331
    blah64blah64 Posts: 928member
    Wow. These guy are proving to be more than just liars.



    They are BIG FAT BLATANT liars!



    But I guess they're in good company. If microsoft execs like Bill Gates can lie under oath (http://bwads.businessweek.com/micros...s/up81102a.htm), then why not some irrelevant little clone-maker!
  • Reply 9 of 331
    jmadlenajmadlena Posts: 43member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by g3pro View Post


    Apple will go to just about any length to prevent competition.



    Truly sad. Apple has sunk to new lows.



    I agree. It is unfair for a company that has invested millions and millions of dollars into the research, development, testing, and distribution of their own property to try and keep the competition from profiting off of it. Since Psystar is such a small company, they should be allowed to profit from Apple's investment.



    /idiocy



    If Psystar thinks they can do better, then they should develop their own operating system and hardware. Then we'll see if they can undercut Apple on price, and outperform Apple on quality and quantity.
  • Reply 10 of 331
    solipsismsolipsism Posts: 25,726member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by steviet02 View Post


    Just in case you didn't fully understand what he meant... If you have only an email and delete it without printing it out then its gone. I'm not saying it doesn't sound fishy but your comment made it sound like they had the email, when it's clear they are saying it was 'lost in the move'.



    1) If they are in any way touting that they are more efficient then I can make a joke.



    2) You are required by laws to keep such documents. To think that the actually what little financial papers they had is highly suspect. I doubt this move will fly with the courts.
  • Reply 11 of 331
    quadra 610quadra 610 Posts: 6,743member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by g3pro View Post


    Apple will go to just about any length to prevent competition.



    Truly sad. Apple has sunk to new lows.



    What competition???



    A "small startup company with limited resources" that is consistently violating Apple's Intellectual Property. This isn't about the EULA, it's about Apple's rights under Intellectual Property law. Intellectual property is not the same as physical property. Buying OS X does not give the user the automatic right to do with it what they wish, especially not making modifications to Apple's property and then reselling it at a profit while running a business behind it.



    There is no such thing as "competition" when it's Apple's software. And by law they have a right to lock their own property down to their own hardware. And they do this for valid reasons.



    Psystar is engaged in theft. And these missing documents, which also seems to include invoices for their alleged purchases of OS X, also suggests the possiblity they have, and are currently engaging in piracy.
  • Reply 12 of 331
    maximaramaximara Posts: 269member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Dr Millmoss View Post


    My first reaction is this sounds like undiluted hogwash. My second reaction is that there's probably some truth to Psystar's claim that they're run by a bunch of amateurs.



    My feeling is Psystar knows their case is a lost cause of the highest order and is in delay mode. As an accountant I know that the "documents for balance, profit-and-loss, or other characteristics of its finances simply don't (and don't need to) exist" is total garbage and would be one of the first things the IRS would want to see if they audited these guys.



    In a way it is a pity that the False Claims Act (Lincoln?s law) is so limited in situations like as being able to sue on behalf of the IRS would shut this latest nonsense down in a heartbeat.
  • Reply 13 of 331
    cylackcylack Posts: 26member
    Big corporations should not be allowed to dictate what we can do once we make a purchase.



    I'm sure all the Apple fanboys here would be cool if Sony made you agree to a "license" that said if you purchase a DVD movie made by Sony Pictures Entertainment, then you have to play it only on a Sony DVD player. Same argument goes with music.



    I've used Apple computers since the Apple IIGS and they've always been overpriced on the hardware side.
  • Reply 14 of 331
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by g3pro View Post


    Apple will go to just about any length to prevent competition.



    Truly sad. Apple has sunk to new lows.



    Looks like someone from the Osama, sorry Obama team is here.
  • Reply 15 of 331
    maximaramaximara Posts: 269member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Quadra 610 View Post


    What competition???



    A "small startup company with limited resources" that is consistently violating Apple's Intellectual Property. This isn't about the EULA, it's about Apple's rights under Intellectual Property law. Intellectual property is not the same as physical property. Buying OS X does not give the user the automatic right to do with it what they wish, especially not making modifications to Apple's property and the reselling it a profit while running a business behind it.



    There is no such thing as "competition" when it's Apple's software. And by law they have a right to lock their own property down to their own hardware.



    Psystar is engaged in theft. And these missing documents, which also seems to include invoices for their alleged purchases of OS X, also suggests the possiblity they have, and are currently engaging in piracy.



    It would be the same if somebody wrote a XBox 360, Nintendo's Wii or PS3 emulator to run games on regular PCs--the companies that own those consoles would be over the guy who did such a thing so fast it would make Sonic look like a freaking snail.



    The more I look at the whole Psystar thing the more I think Apple's idea that they may be a stalking horse is might be close to the mark. Judge William Alsup already declared back in Nov 2008 that Apple did NOT violate the Sherman Antitrust Act, Clayton Act, or Cartwright Act so Psystar's anti-trust and monopoly claims regarding Apple have already been declared bogus.
  • Reply 16 of 331
    dr millmossdr millmoss Posts: 5,403member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Maximara View Post


    My feeling is Psystar knows their case is a lost cause of the highest order and is in delay mode. As an accountant I know that the "documents for balance, profit-and-loss, or other characteristics of its finances simply don't (and don't need to) exist" is total garbage and would be one of the first things the IRS would want to see if they audited these guys.



    Even in a small general partnership like mine, our accountant demands more from us every single tax year than Psystar seems to have at hand. I'm sort of surprised to hear them claim that no such documents exist or are required, and in same breath, refer to their venture capitalists. Everybody who'd put their money on the line without demanding a regular P&L at least, please raise your hands, because I have a very nice bridge I'd like to sell you.
  • Reply 17 of 331
    adjeiadjei Posts: 738member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by cylack View Post


    Big corporations should not be allowed to dictate what we can do once we make a purchase.



    I'm sure all the Apple fanboys here would be cool if Sony made you agree to a "license" that said if you purchase a DVD movie made by Sony Pictures Entertainment, then you have to play it only on a Sony DVD player. Same argument goes with music.



    I've used Apple computers since the Apple IIGS and they've always been overpriced on the hardware side.



    Damn some of you are real idiots.
  • Reply 18 of 331
    woodyjpnwoodyjpn Posts: 1member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by cylack View Post


    Big corporations should not be allowed to dictate what we can do once we make a purchase.



    if you purchase a DVD movie made by Sony Pictures Entertainment, then you have to play it only on a Sony DVD player. Same argument goes with music.



    No, but you have aright to specify that it won't play on a different platform - say, Sony makes a BlueRay movie, but just because I want to play it on a regular DVD doesn't give me the right to play it. I can't use BlueRay tchnology to make my own player because I'm violating their rights. So, if I still want to play that particular movie I have to make sure I have the right hardware. At the present the only company that LEGALY makes the right hardware for Mac OS is Apple, and all other ones who make or would like to make, or especially profit from that kind of hardware, have to get a permission from Apple.
  • Reply 19 of 331
    quadra 610quadra 610 Posts: 6,743member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by cylack View Post


    Big corporations should not be allowed to dictate what we can do once we make a purchase.



    You mean make modifications to your product, then resell it at a profit as part of a business with you getting nothing for it?? Intellecutal Property is not the same as physical property.



    Intellectual Proprety law exists for a reason, and a lot of people are able to make a living thanks to its existence.



    The intellectual property laws in the United States provide the owners of intellectual property with discretion to license the right to use that property or to make or sell products that embody the intellectual property.



    There are limitations and restrictions on that to a certain degree, but what is essentially being argued by some of the Pro-Psystar people here is that Apple shouldn't have any intellectual property rights with respect to OS X to begin with once a sale is made, which is a fallacious argument.
  • Reply 20 of 331
    maximaramaximara Posts: 269member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by cylack View Post


    Big corporations should not be allowed to dictate what we can do once we make a purchase.



    I'm sure all the Apple fanboys here would be cool if Sony made you agree to a "license" that said if you purchase a DVD movie made by Sony Pictures Entertainment, then you have to play it only on a Sony DVD player. Same argument goes with music.



    I've used Apple computers since the Apple IIGS and they've always been overpriced on the hardware side.



    Newsflash Big corporations DO dictate what we can do once we make a purchase. Blizzard and its World of Warcraft is one such example and the incompatibility of console games with each other is another. Like it or not these are their rights.



    Besides compared to good quality hardware with the same specs a mac is not much more expensive than a PC. Sure you can get a cheaper PC but you will pay for it in terms of hassle and strange problems that take time (ie money) to fix.



    Nevermind that for all intents and purposes Microsoft has created a Trust something Apple has NEVER done.
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