Psystar files for bankruptcy likely delaying Apple case

1246789

Comments

  • Reply 61 of 168
    piotpiot Posts: 1,346member
    Your whole post is rubbish... but this is the best bit.





    Quote:
    Originally Posted by bwik View Post


    Psystar stands for something important even if they are wrong.



  • Reply 62 of 168
    djsherlydjsherly Posts: 1,017member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by justflybob View Post


    What exactly is so important about stealing another companies property?



    It's not stealing. Just because popular language suggests it is so do not make it so. Exactly what is being stolen?



    Revenue? No.



    The EULA does nowhere suggest that the copy of OS X bought must be put on a computer supplied by Apple. It say 'Apple-labeled' computer. There is zero clarification in the EULA other than the word Apple being capitalized.
  • Reply 63 of 168
    djsherlydjsherly Posts: 1,017member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by piot View Post


    Your whole post is rubbish... but this is the best bit.



    Stellar contribution. Pulitzer?
  • Reply 64 of 168
    macfandavemacfandave Posts: 603member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by BenRoethig View Post


    Monopolies are only good until the company figures out the customers are locked in. You end up with inferior products and higher prices. You see it with the utility companies, you've seen it with Microsoft, and you're seeing in pro segments where Apple jacks the price of Mac Pros up $200 with each revision knowing that its much cheaper to pay the increase than the thousands it would take to switch.





    At less than 10 percent of the PC market, Apple is not a monopoly. I have a Toyota and when I need parts, sometimes they are exclusively available from Toyota. Does that make Toyota a monopoly?



    I've not been following the prices of Mac Pros. I got a Dual 2GHz G5 PowerMac in 2003 and found that, for my needs, the consumer-level Intel-based Macs of today gave me all the performance I need. In the case of the Mac mini, iMac, MacBook and even the MacBook Pro, Apple has kept prices steady while continually improving the machines.



    If you've paid attention, Apple is highly regarded for its quality and customer service, so your gloom-and-doom scenario is illusory. Even if your claim about Mac Pros is correct (are you one who thinks they should get an 8-core for what last generation's quad core cost?), your thesis is very weak.
  • Reply 65 of 168
    dr millmossdr millmoss Posts: 5,403member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Leonard View Post


    Correct me if I'm wrong, but there's nothing to stop Psystar from still operating while they file for bankruptcy protection.



    Correct. That's the purpose of Chapter 11. They are allowed to operate while reorganizing.



    Quote:
    Originally Posted by justflybob View Post


    If an attorney sits at his desk and even "thinks" about your case? Well, that goes on the billable hours sheet. Same thing goes for faxes, emails, letters, phone calls, etc.



    Old joke: A man gets a letter from his attorney.



    Dear Bob,



    I thought I saw you downtown yesterday so I crossed the street to say hello. It turned out to be someone else.



    0.10 hour $25.00
  • Reply 66 of 168
    piotpiot Posts: 1,346member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by djsherly View Post


    Stellar contribution. Pulitzer?



    For a post that suggest that Apple could be broken up, for simply trying to protect THEIR OWN IP... and that Psystar is doing something "important" .... I think that "rubbish" is actually a rather fair and generous response.



    For the still broken idea that the terminology "Apple labelled computer " doesn't mean, a computer built and sold by Apple... no response is necessary,
  • Reply 67 of 168
    justflybobjustflybob Posts: 1,337member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by djsherly View Post


    It's not stealing. Just because popular language suggests it is so do not make it so. Exactly what is being stolen?



    Revenue? No.



    The EULA does nowhere suggest that the copy of OS X bought must be put on a computer supplied by Apple. It say 'Apple-labeled' computer. There is zero clarification in the EULA other than the word Apple being capitalized.



    1. No one knows whether the software was purchased or copied, except Psystar and Apple.

    2. Since Apple is the only producer of "Apple-labeled" products, how exactly does a third party hardware manufacturer sell a legal copy of Apple software pre-installed on any non-Apple CPU?

    3. I'm fairly certain that the courts will provide all the clarification you can handle. And then some.
  • Reply 68 of 168
    justflybobjustflybob Posts: 1,337member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Dr Millmoss View Post


    Old joke: A man gets a letter from his attorney.



    Dear Bob,



    I thought I saw you downtown yesterday so I crossed the street to say hello. It turned out to be someone else.



    0.10 hour $25.00



    [Off Topic]



    And along those lines...



    A man walks into a Post Office to mail a letter. He can't help but notice a man furiously signing hundreds of Valentines Day cards with "I can't wait to see you again!" and dropping them in the mail.



    The first man says: "Wow, you must be the world's greatest lover."



    To which the second man replies: "Not really. I'm a divorce attorney!"



    But seriously folks, I'm here eight nights a week....



    [/Off Topic]
  • Reply 69 of 168
    ruel24ruel24 Posts: 432member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by justflybob View Post


    Oh God, here we go again.



    Exactly what part of the fact, that they did not have have a license from Apple to do what they did, do you not understand?



    What part of the fact that neither Kaypro or Compaq had licenses from IBM when they made the first clones don't you understand?
  • Reply 70 of 168
    djsherlydjsherly Posts: 1,017member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by justflybob View Post


    1. No one knows whether the software was purchased or copied, except Psystar and Apple.

    2. Since Apple is the only producer of "Apple-labeled" products, how exactly does a third party hardware manufacturer sell a legal copy of Apple software pre-installed on any non-Apple CPU?

    3. I'm fairly certain that the courts will provide all the clarification you can handle. And then some.



    1. Rubbish. Psystar's website claimed to supply a legitimate copy of OS X with the computer being purchased.



    2. I can produce any number of 'Apple-labeled' computers. And what's to say it even has to be 'produced'? At its most asisine, I can slap an Apple sticker on my desktop computer. A genuine one even - it comes in the box with the software. So, is the computer Apple-labeled or not? Not in the sense that you might want it to take, but I merely point out that what appears obvious is not always so. Why, for instance, did the EULA not say "Computer System Supplied by Apple" rather than "Apple-labeled computer"? There may be some legal reasoning for this, but I'm not American, don't know how you guys roll in this respect.



    3. That's the point being made, isn't it? Why don't we let the courts sort it out rather than have one dominant company crush the other. That appears to be way the corporate world works. The question is put, but rarely answered.
  • Reply 71 of 168
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by ruel24 View Post


    What part of the fact that neither Kaypro or Compaq had licenses from IBM when they made the first clones don't you understand?





    The reason why Compaq and Kaypro were able to copy the IBM PC was because IBM only patented the BIOS and not the other hardware. They reverse-engineered the BIOS and were able to copy the rest. It wasn't till about a decade later that IBM was awarded millions against all of the cloners, but that was just a drop in the bucket when they lost billions. Now where's IBM? Not selling boxes, but services.
  • Reply 72 of 168
    SpamSandwichSpamSandwich Posts: 31,098member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by BenRoethig View Post


    Monopolies are only good until the company figures out the customers are locked in. You end up with inferior products and higher prices. You see it with the utility companies, you've seen it with Microsoft, and you're seeing in pro segments where Apple jacks the price of Mac Pros up $200 with each revision knowing that its much cheaper to pay the increase than the thousands it would take to switch.



    Yeah, just like those lousy refrigerator and coffee machine manufacturers do, what with their proprietary operating systems! Burn 'em all to the ground!
  • Reply 73 of 168
    dr millmossdr millmoss Posts: 5,403member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by HammerofTruth View Post


    The reason why Compaq and Kaypro were able to copy the IBM PC was because IBM only patented the BIOS and not the other hardware. They reverse-engineered the BIOS and were able to copy the rest. It wasn't till about a decade later that IBM was awarded millions against all of the cloners, but that was just a drop in the bucket when they lost billions. Now where's IBM? Not selling boxes, but services.



    The only part of this story I'd dispute is IBM collecting any damages from the cloners. The way I understand it, IBM sued Compaq (the first to reverse-engineer the ROM-BIOS) but lost because Compaq could prove that no copyrighted IBM code was used either on purpose or accidently to duplicate the BIOS functions. IBM tried to make this difficult by freely distributing copies of books documenting the BIOS code. Compaq had to find engineers who could sign affidavits swearing that they'd never set eyes the IBM book. Once they got over that hurdle, IBM could make no claim on them.
  • Reply 74 of 168
    justflybobjustflybob Posts: 1,337member
    Deleted
  • Reply 75 of 168
    sflocalsflocal Posts: 4,614member
    With Enron and Madhoff, the courts were able to go after them personally after proving fraud. Jailtime for the Enron boys and Madhoff. However, in Madhoff's case, there were able to go after personal assets too of not only his and his wife, but of friends and family members too. Normally, personal assets are untouchable.



    Obviously the circumstances were totally different. However, I wonder if Apple could still go after the founders of Psystar on a personal level of some kind if fraud is proven. Otherwise, what is to stop them from declaring bankruptcy and simply arising again under a different name doing the same IP thievery. There should be some kind of personal exposure if they continue doing this.



    Either way, I look forward to Psystar getting the hammer dropped on them in a brutal and blunt way.
  • Reply 76 of 168
    melgrossmelgross Posts: 31,658member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by bwik View Post


    Now it's even more important that the court case go forward. Just because Apple has more money for lawyers, should not in itself guarantee that new competitors are blocked.



    This is America. It should be possible for new competitors to enter (if a court agrees with their model). The court has not yet ruled. Until that time, Apple's legal maneuvers could be interpreted under anti-trust law as a predatory move that is illegal. Apple could eventually be broken up, legally, if they kill everything that moves like this.



    You're kidding, right?



    You've gone about as far overboard as you can without drowning, and you look to be flailing around just a bit.



    Quote:

    IMO. Just having more lawyers does not prove you were right. In that way, Microsoft could have extinguished Apple at a sensitive moment 10 years ago. I'm just saying, Psystar stands for something important even if they are wrong. It is important the court gets the chance to say so, so we don't have to deal with this type of question again.



    Everyone is allowed to defend their property. That's basic here. It's in the constitution.



    MS helped Apple, because Apple had them over a barrel. They were caught with Apple's Quicktime code. Before they stole that, movies and other video wouldn't play properly in Windows. It would jerk from frame to frame.



    Apple threatened a lawsuit over that, and testified that MS threatened them over it in court during the Netscape trials.



    They came to an agreement in which Apple and MS would share patents in various bits of software, and also that MS would buy $150,000,000 in non voting Apple stock, and announce support for Apple by continuing development of Office for at least 5 years.



    This wasn't out of the goodness of Gates' heart.



    In addition, if Apple went under, MS would have a much bigger problem on their hands over their since government declared monopoly.



    We don't know what the courts will decide, but it's Apple's advantage now.
  • Reply 77 of 168
    With all the loose definitions of "theft" being thrown around and the multitude of Psystar bashing going on, I once again have arrived to stupidly stand up against a lashing similar to that of breaching dam to defend my opinion.



    Psystar is NOT stealing. They are an unauthorized reseller, and are breaking an EULA.



    A while back I posted this analogy, which I feel fits this situation perfectly.



    So say I buy bags and bags of Starbucks coffee beans at my local grocery store. With them, I open a coffee shop. It just so happens that my mochas are marvelous and my lattes luscious; so much so, in fact, that I'm starting to pull some business from the Starbucks down the block. I legally purchased the beans in the store, I paid exactly what they charged me, they're getting paid for all the coffee I brew. Do they posses the ability to sue me?



    SHOULD they posses that ability?



    In Psystar's case, they do not have a reseller's license so are technically committing a crime. The question is whether or not the law is appropriate.



    As for the EULA, EULAs cannot violate a user's rights. A court could determine that Apple's hardware is sufficiently equivalent to standard third-party hardware (as they should since it is as different from off-the-shelf parts as the different brands are to each other). That being the case, the court could subsequently determine that the EULA's mandate of "Apple labeled" hardware to be an irrelevant one, and ergo, a violation of consumer rights to be imposed.



    The situation is similar to an artist selling a $129 duplication of a copyrighted work, say a painting, but also mandating that you can't display the painting unless you also purchase a $2000 frame, which only he sells. Psystar is purchasing duplicates, putting them in their own, cheaper, less gaudy, more functional frames and reselling the package for less. Copyright law prohibits Psystar from reselling a copyrighted work, but does that make the artist's practice of mandating the purchase of a $2000 frame an ethical one?



    It is also my belief that resale of copyrighted material should be legal so long as the value of the original work is not damaged. In the two analogies I've shared (coffee and painting), the producers have received the market value they requested for the items in question and therefore have not been damaged by the resale of the modified products/works. Any loss of sale would have resulted from their own failure to utilize the product/work and market them in a way that was of value to consumers, and should not be protected by copyright laws.



    Copyright laws exist to protect the works and intellectual property from duplication, but when they can be used to shield companies from legitimate competition of other non-duplicatory / derivative works, the law has been abused as is what I believe is happening here.



    -Clive
  • Reply 78 of 168
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by djsherly View Post


    1. Rubbish. Psystar's website claimed to supply a legitimate copy of OS X with the computer being purchased.



    2. I can produce any number of 'Apple-labeled' computers. And what's to say it even has to be 'produced'? At its most asisine, I can slap an Apple sticker on my desktop computer. A genuine one even - it comes in the box with the software. So, is the computer Apple-labeled or not? Not in the sense that you might want it to take, but I merely point out that what appears obvious is not always so. Why, for instance, did the EULA not say "Computer System Supplied by Apple" rather than "Apple-labeled computer"? There may be some legal reasoning for this, but I'm not American, don't know how you guys roll in this respect.



    3. That's the point being made, isn't it? Why don't we let the courts sort it out rather than have one dominant company crush the other. That appears to be way the corporate world works. The question is put, but rarely answered.



    With your third point, that is exactly how the corporate world works. One company rips another one off or sues the other out of existence. Look at Edison Vs. Tesla, Alexander Graham Bell Vs. Elisha Gray, etc.



    Just because the courts sort it out does not guarantee a fair outcome. That itself is rubbish. You're going to need a good lawyer and money anyway, so how is that different than how the corporate world works? Please explain.
  • Reply 79 of 168
    melgrossmelgross Posts: 31,658member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by djsherly View Post


    It's not stealing. Just because popular language suggests it is so do not make it so. Exactly what is being stolen?



    Revenue? No.



    The EULA does nowhere suggest that the copy of OS X bought must be put on a computer supplied by Apple. It say 'Apple-labeled' computer. There is zero clarification in the EULA other than the word Apple being capitalized.



    Actually, it is revenue that's being stolen. Every sale that Apple may lose from a sale by Psystar is considered to be lost revenue. If Psystar is ruled to have broken the, EULA then every sale it made directly goes back to Apple.



    I suspect the bankruptcy was intentionally maneuvered by them to cut out a source of money that Apple could have called for, should they win. I've seen this done before (unsuccessfully).



    You're playing poor games with words here, 'Apple-labeled" clearly means a machine made by Apple, as no other machines are allowed to be "Apple labeled".



    Apple makes it VERY clear as to what your rights are, and as to what THEIR rights are regarding their software.
  • Reply 80 of 168
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by macFanDave View Post


    At less than 10 percent of the PC market, Apple is not a monopoly. I have a Toyota and when I need parts, sometimes they are exclusively available from Toyota. Does that make Toyota a monopoly?



    Apple is a "Vertical Monopoly." That means if you subscribe to one product, you must also subscribe to another/other unrelated products. Examples: OS X and "Apple-labeled hardware," iTunes .aacs and iPod, iPhone and iTunes App Store.
Sign In or Register to comment.