Psystar files for bankruptcy likely delaying Apple case

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  • Reply 81 of 168
    kim kap solkim kap sol Posts: 2,987member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by rain View Post


    Still, it would have been nice to have built my own computer that was twice as fast and put OSX on it... all for half the price.

    Plus, it would have been a computer capable of real upgrades.



    False. Your hackintosh would still be subject to OS X's drivers, limiting your "real upgrade" options. Although the OSx86 community is working on bringing drivers for currently unsupported hardware and suceeding in bringing some PC ATI video card support, you will still mostly be limited to the same things you can currently put in your Mac Pro.
  • Reply 82 of 168
    nasseraenasserae Posts: 3,157member
    I told you so. This is the oldest trick in the book. First, slowly move money overseas claiming it to be for purchasing products/parts. Second, after few years claim that all your paper work was lost (fire, moving, theft... etc). Third, file for bankruptcy claiming no money was made (in Psystar case they claim too high legal fees like they were forced to hire the most expensive lawyers). In my opinion, Psystar did not expect this much publicity early on. They probably expected to go for more than few years before Apple finds out and sue them.
  • Reply 83 of 168
    SpamSandwichSpamSandwich Posts: 31,098member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Clive At Five View Post


    Apple is a "Vertical Monopoly." That means if you subscribe to one product, you must also subscribe to another/other unrelated products. Examples: OS X and "Apple-labeled hardware," iTunes .aacs and iPod, iPhone and iTunes App Store.



    Mmmm... sorta. If you own an iPod you can sign up on iTunes and get tons of content, yet never spend a penny. So........... sorta. But the same thing would apply if you own a Blackberry, right?
  • Reply 84 of 168
    justflybobjustflybob Posts: 1,337member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by SpamSandwich View Post


    Mmmm... sorta. If you own an iPod you can sign up on iTunes and get tons of content, yet never spend a penny. So........... sorta. But the same thing would apply if you own a Blackberry, right?



    Except that the Blackberry owner wouldn't be as happy....
  • Reply 85 of 168
    solipsismsolipsism Posts: 25,726member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by striker_kk View Post


    Is there any chance that Psystar, in their battle with Apple, is being supported by M$?



    Besides the consumer, MS would lose the most if Psystar were to win.
  • Reply 86 of 168
    lamewinglamewing Posts: 742member
    I cannot believe some of the comments here, such as someone hopes they loose their homes and other calling these folks pricks, etc. The elite Apple fanboys (not everyone here) need to give it a rest. It is a computer...



    I, for one, would like to be able to install OSX on my PC hardware. PC hardware that I carefully picked out. PC hardware that is easily of the same caliber of Apple's so-called quality hardware. Sorry, their hardware is the same as any other PC. Please don't claim that because I have non-Apple hardware that I am a "Windoze PC Loser", etc. I am neither a PC or Apple fanatic. It is just a tool. But I will not pay for another computer just to use an OS when my system works perfectly.



    Apple, sell me the OSX, I will pay for it and use it.
  • Reply 87 of 168
    doroteadorotea Posts: 323member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by ruel24 View Post


    Okay, so Pystar makes computers that are 100% Mac OS X compliant. Why does that make them crooks? The parts are open and freely used on PC's running Windows... Folks, if Pystar would win, we all win. It creates competiton, and therefore better products and lower prices. That's capitalism. Hoping Apple wins out is a vote for higher prices, less choice, and whatever Apple feels we deserve to get from them. In other words, you, the consumer, loses.



    They are crooks because they don't have an OEM license with Apple and yet act like an OEM. Psystar has not licensed the ability to resell OSX. They steal.



    If psystar wants to compete, then they should make their own OS and sell it.
  • Reply 88 of 168
    halvrihalvri Posts: 146member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by bwik View Post


    Now it's even more important that the court case go forward. Just because Apple has more money for lawyers, should not in itself guarantee that new competitors are blocked.



    This is America. It should be possible for new competitors to enter (if a court agrees with their model). The court has not yet ruled. Until that time, Apple's legal maneuvers could be interpreted under anti-trust law as a predatory move that is illegal. Apple could eventually be broken up, legally, if they kill everything that moves like this. IMO. Just having more lawyers does not prove you were right. In that way, Microsoft could have extinguished Apple at a sensitive moment 10 years ago. I'm just saying, Psystar stands for something important even if they are wrong. It is important the court gets the chance to say so, so we don't have to deal with this type of question again.



    Just so you know, we've been through this cycle before and the courts have ruled with Apple several times. There is clear precedence for the legal case Apple has brought against Psystar. I really think the rest of your post is insanely over the top. Apple, as a company, is simply not large enough, either in employees or economy of scale to be broken up by a governmental authority (I assume you're taking this from the Microsoft case in the 90's).



    You need to keep in mind that Apple does have competition. Go to Best Buy and there you will find a PC section and a Mac section. Apple is a hardware vendor who makes OS X to entice customers to buy it's computers. Microsoft is a software company that syphons its software out to anyone that wants it. And Linux is a community of programmers that believe in mostly free distribution. These are all entirely legit business and distribution models and all of them have their benefits and shortfalls.



    However, to act as if the Apple and Microsoft commercials alone don't prove who Apple is competing with is quite ridiculous. Apple like any other business has a right to regulate its model and you as a customer have the right to accept or deny those terms. Not liking Apple's prices or, better yet, misinterpreting the legal definition of monopoly is just dumb. Apple holds a small share of the market and there are several alternatives to its products. You have choices and you know it.
  • Reply 89 of 168
    solipsismsolipsism Posts: 25,726member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by lamewing View Post


    Sorry, their hardware is the same as any other PC.



    If that were true, then it was true before the switch from PPC to x86, as Unix and Linux ran on PPC. The only reason that Windows didn?t run on PPC is because MS choose not to develop for that pletform. It?s still a CPU, it still uses RAM, has I/O, etc. If we are to force Apple to do this why would we also not force MS to make Windows run on PPC, too?



    If the HW is the exactly the same between PCs, then it?s exactly the same between cellphones, too. Should we force Apple to sell their iPhone OS X to other cell phone vendors since they all use ARM processors, RAM, Flash, etc.? How about forcing Apple to sell their iPod OS to other vendors since that is all the same as the other PMP vendors?



    I don?t understand these people against a free market.
  • Reply 90 of 168
    bwikbwik Posts: 562member
    How about this.... the lawyers are taking control of Psystar, and are helping with the bankruptcy papers. This would be a pretty good speculative operation. Apple has $29B in cash. Lawyers are never unaware of that.
  • Reply 91 of 168
    successsuccess Posts: 1,039member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by lkrupp View Post


    That's ignorant.



    You're ignorant. Most of you don't even dig deep enough to know why.
  • Reply 92 of 168
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Clive At Five View Post


    Apple is a "Vertical Monopoly." That means if you subscribe to one product, you must also subscribe to another/other unrelated products. Examples: OS X and "Apple-labeled hardware," iTunes .aacs and iPod, iPhone and iTunes App Store.



    Try amending "Vertical Monopoly" to the Sherman Anti-Trust Act. Apple has no monopoly on anything. Digital music download is ONLY ONE WAY of purchasing music.



    The iPod is almost close to a monopoly on portable digital music player, but not quite. Also, Apple hasn't in any way prevented other companies from entering this market, which is essential for prosecution.
  • Reply 93 of 168
    halvrihalvri Posts: 146member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by lamewing View Post


    I cannot believe some of the comments here, such as someone hopes they loose their homes and other calling these folks pricks, etc. The elite Apple fanboys (not everyone here) need to give it a rest. It is a computer...



    I, for one, would like to be able to install OSX on my PC hardware. PC hardware that I carefully picked out. PC hardware that is easily of the same caliber of Apple's so-called quality hardware. Sorry, their hardware is the same as any other PC. Please don't claim that because I have non-Apple hardware that I am a "Windoze PC Loser", etc. I am neither a PC or Apple fanatic. It is just a tool. But I will not pay for another computer just to use an OS when my system works perfectly.



    Apple, sell me the OSX, I will pay for it and use it.



    Calling people elitist fanboys just made your entire post pointless because you've gone at the entire thing with an obviously biased view (further evidenced by your need to guard yourself from being called a Windows fanboy). Alot of us aren't simply Apple fans, we're also legal scholars. And to be perfectly blunt, you have a fundamental misunderstanding about what alot of us are arguing over.



    Whether you'd like to run OS X on generic hardware or not, you have no legal right to do so. That's simply all there is to it. Businesses have the right to protect their intellectual property the same way that people do. Were that not true, then capitalism as a principle simply would not work on any level because everyone would just copy everyone and there'd be no real reason to ever strive for anything.



    With Apple specifically, you need to understand that Apple is not selling you software, it's selling you hardware. All of its profits are derived from its hardware sales and you can see that throughout all of its products. The iPhone is a good example: Apple has sold millions of iPhones, but barely made anything from the App store because the software is simply a vehicle to sell the hardware.



    By the nature of that relationship, Apple's competition is not truly Microsoft, but OEMs like Dell and Hewlett-Packard, & Toshiba. The only thing distinguishing those OEMs from each other is the design of their cases and some minor specification differences. Which is why Apple makes OS X: in order to distinguish itself from the competition. That is Apple's entire business plan and that's why it has to fight so fiercely to protect it.



    Now, I will say to you personally that what you said about computers being just "tools" and the operating system not mattering is just complete and utter bullshit. This is the digital age, computers are a part of everything we do (even when they're not actually computers, but things like TVs and appliances). The idea that a computer is just a tool is complete lunacy. As a law student, most of the things I do revolve around my computer (notes, research, etc) and I spend alot of time online as a result. My Mac is a tool, yes, but that's by no means all that it is. I use it for television and photography and communicating with friends among many other things. If you think a computer is just tool, you are one seriously jaded human being.



    And while Apple gets its parts from the same manufacturers as Windows OEMs do, the quality control on Apples has always been higher than its Windows counterparts. Try using even a high end Dell and see how long it lasts. The XPS 13 selected in the last "I'm a PC" commercial has one very well known and very substantial flaw: when its lid is open, it blocks its main air vents and causes system wide parts failures as a result. Not everything is just the sum of its parts. PC OEMs sacrifice quality because one of the few ways they can differentiate themselves from each other is to play the price game and to keep investors happy under that practice they have to cut corners to retain profit margins. Again, few things in this world are just the sum of their parts.



    Also, your idea that the operating system counts for nothing disgusts me. Were it not for Apple, there would be no real choice in anything. Microsoft would have 97% of the market and various forms of Linux that only people with a tolerance for command line prompts would use would make up the rest of the market.



    And were Apple to compete amongst cloners the way Microsoft deals with OEMs, there would be no real point in its existence because it would just be a prettier, safer Windows by the nature of having to, like Windows, be everything to everyone. And under that auspice, Apple, as a company would fail because everyone would still buy Windows because that's what they're used to and all of the advantages Apple has in stability and features would quickly become moot.



    But as an even bigger point: if I were to even believe your claim that they're all completely the same because they're made from similar parts, then the most important part of the computer is thereby the operating system because it's what takes advantage of all those parts. It's kind of like the human body, the mind is what ultimately makes the person, not simply the size or strength of his or her appendages, muscles, etc.



    Finally, Apple doesn't want you to buy a new computer just for OS X, but when it comes time for you to replace what you have, it certainly hopes to be on your list of choices.
  • Reply 94 of 168
    djsherlydjsherly Posts: 1,017member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by melgross View Post


    Actually, it is revenue that's being stolen. Every sale that Apple may lose from a sale by Psystar is considered to be lost revenue.



    No. It's not being stolen. Look up what stolen actually means. In every jurisdiction in the world where IP laws exist, it cannot be "stolen". Your IP rights can be infringed but to say that revenue is stolen is a ridiculous assertion and there's no correlation between x copies of widget being sold in an "unauthorised" way and x * y dollars of revenue being lost. That might go the quantum of damages but they ARE NOT THE SAME THING.



    Quote:

    I suspect the bankruptcy was intentionally maneuvered by them to cut out a source of money that Apple could have called for, should they win. I've seen this done before (unsuccessfully).



    Conjecture. That may just as easily be a victim of the GFC.



    Quote:

    You're playing poor games with words here, 'Apple-labeled" clearly means a machine made by Apple, as no other machines are allowed to be "Apple labeled".



    Hardly poor games. Courts are entirely pre-occupied with construction of words and terms. Are courts concerned with popular meaning? Possibly. But you're assuming that everyone thinks the same way you do. Apple nowhere defined what an Apple-labeled computer is. You've defined it in your head and maybe a lot of people share the same view, but in the end you're agreeing to a black letter contract - the room for ambiguity should be as little as possible.



    Quote:

    Apple makes it VERY clear as to what your rights are, and as to what THEIR rights are regarding their software.



    What Apple don't make very clear, and it's not just Apple, is they can't abrogate rights given to you by statute or the common law. Agreements can be excised to the extent they are not consistent with the law, but that isn't necessarily going to stop someone from inserting a clause forcing you to do the chicken dance every sunday.
  • Reply 95 of 168
    djsherlydjsherly Posts: 1,017member
    Quote:

    Now, I will say to you personally that what you said about computers being just "tools" and the operating system not mattering is just complete and utter bullshit. This is the digital age, computers are a part of everything we do (even when they're not actually computers, but things like TVs and appliances). The idea that a computer is just a tool is complete lunacy. As a law student, most of the things I do revolve around my computer (notes, research, etc) and I spend alot of time online as a result. My Mac is a tool, yes, but that's by no means all that it is. I use it for television and photography and communicating with friends among many other things. If you think a computer is just tool, you are one seriously jaded human being.



    Hmm. It *is* just a tool. All those exceptions (TV, photography, etc) whilst entertaining, still use the computer as a means to an end. A tool.



    Quote:

    And while Apple gets its parts from the same manufacturers as Windows OEMs do, the quality control on Apples has always been higher than its Windows counterparts. Try using even a high end Dell and see how long it lasts. The XPS 13 selected in the last "I'm a PC" commercial has one very well known and very substantial flaw: when its lid is open, it blocks its main air vents and causes system wide parts failures as a result. Not everything is just the sum of its parts. PC OEMs sacrifice quality because one of the few ways they can differentiate themselves from each other is to play the price game and to keep investors happy under that practice they have to cut corners to retain profit margins. Again, few things in this world are just the sum of their parts.



    You asked for a personal experience? Apple v Dell. I had a Dell for four years. It needed a mother board replacement after three. This Macbook I'm using I've had for 3 years. It's motherboard was replaced two months after I bought it. It spent another week in the shop having a cracked case repaired, the LCD was replaced two weeks ago, and now it's going back again to have the case replaced again, and to have the DVD drive fixed. Don't confuse industrial design with quality.





    Quote:

    Also, your idea that the operating system counts for nothing disgusts me. Were it not for Apple, there would be no real choice in anything. Microsoft would have 97% of the market and various forms of Linux that only people with a tolerance for command line prompts would use would make up the rest of the market.



    Is Apple going to fix world hunger as well. Please.
  • Reply 96 of 168
    tbelltbell Posts: 3,146member
    Welcome to Bankruptcy. The Automatic Stay does just what you suggest. It temporarily stops any civil lawsuit in order to give the Debtor time to hopefully get it's affairs in order.



    Bankruptcy will not effect Apple's effort to get an injunction against Psystar.







    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Neruda View Post


    Where Pystar's [backers, investors, partners..] will be named?



    I don't think that it would be fair if the bankruptcy filing stays the civil law suit. Apple has probably spent hundreds of thousands of dollars in legal fees at this point, so the case should be allowed to proceed just for its precedential value to Apple. Of course, any judgment against Psytar would then be subject to the bankruptcy filing (priority rules, enforcement, etc).





    11 U.S.C. § 362(a).

    The automatic stay bars, inter alia:

    (1)\tthe commencement or continuation of lawsuits or administrative proceedings against the debtor to recover pre-petition claims;



  • Reply 97 of 168
    justflybobjustflybob Posts: 1,337member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by bwik View Post


    How about this.... the lawyers are taking control of Psystar, and are helping with the bankruptcy papers. This would be a pretty good speculative operation. Apple has $29B in cash. Lawyers are never unaware of that.



    I don't know what you're smoking, but it's not letting you make much sense.
  • Reply 98 of 168
    tbelltbell Posts: 3,146member
    Perhaps, I am missing something, but generally it is lawyers that file Bankruptcy papers. What does Apple's 29 billion have to do with Psystar's Bankruptcy?



    Quote:
    Originally Posted by bwik View Post


    How about this.... the lawyers are taking control of Psystar, and are helping with the bankruptcy papers. This would be a pretty good speculative operation. Apple has $29B in cash. Lawyers are never unaware of that.



  • Reply 99 of 168
    tbelltbell Posts: 3,146member
    In American a company can choose it's own business model. Apple doesn't want to sell you OSX in any other form then an upgrade to an existing Mac. That should be cool with you, as you have as you already have a PC with WIndows installed and you appear to be happy with that decision. Apple isn't forcing you to be a customer.



    For what it is worth there is a difference between you buying OSX and installing it yourself on a PC you build and a company selling you a computer that it build with OSX installed. One doesn't have any significant effect on Apple's chosen business model, the other is attempting to take Mac sales from Apple on a large scale. Apple likely couldn't prevent you from trying to install OSX on your own PC, but the law is clearly on Apple's side when attempting to stop a company from trying to use Apple's intellectual property to harm Apple's chosen business model. Psystar is free to develop it's own OS and install it on computers it builds. Your free to buy PCs running Windows or buy a Mac if you want to run OSX legitimately.



    As far as the same hardware goes, I can't think of a PC made out of a single block of aluminum, with a magnetic connector, multi-touch touch pad, and an accelerometer. Further, Apple may use stock parts, but much to Intel's dismay it designs it's own boards and doesn't use Intel's suggested configurations. The new Nivida cards are examples of that. They blow away the Intel Integrated Graphic Cards found on all the other similarly configured Windows boxes. Apple actually invents new technology. Other then low cost cheap boxes, I can't think of an innovation Dell or Gateway have brought to the market.





    Quote:
    Originally Posted by lamewing View Post


    I cannot believe some of the comments here, such as someone hopes they loose their homes and other calling these folks pricks, etc. The elite Apple fanboys (not everyone here) need to give it a rest. It is a computer...



    I, for one, would like to be able to install OSX on my PC hardware. PC hardware that I carefully picked out. PC hardware that is easily of the same caliber of Apple's so-called quality hardware. Sorry, their hardware is the same as any other PC. Please don't claim that because I have non-Apple hardware that I am a "Windoze PC Loser", etc. I am neither a PC or Apple fanatic. It is just a tool. But I will not pay for another computer just to use an OS when my system works perfectly.



    Apple, sell me the OSX, I will pay for it and use it.



  • Reply 100 of 168
    halvrihalvri Posts: 146member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by djsherly View Post


    Hmm. It *is* just a tool. All those exceptions (TV, photography, etc) whilst entertaining, still use the computer as a means to an end. A tool.





    You asked for a personal experience? Apple v Dell. I had a Dell for four years. It needed a mother board replacement after three. This Macbook I'm using I've had for 3 years. It's motherboard was replaced two months after I bought it. It spent another week in the shop having a cracked case repaired, the LCD was replaced two weeks ago, and now it's going back again to have the case replaced again, and to have the DVD drive fixed. Don't confuse industrial design with quality.









    Is Apple going to fix world hunger as well. Please.



    I have a two and half year old MacBook and I have literally never had a single problem with it. If you honestly are having that many issues, then you quite clearly received a faulty model. I also have a three year old iMac that I've never had any problems with either.



    I work retail when I'm not in class to pay for expenses. So, let me relay further examples of what I meant. During November, we had to send back three entire shipments of Dells for faulty motherboards. Two months later, we started receiving high numbers of returns on its Studio line for similar issues. And just last month, those same units started shipping with power cords that weren't high enough wattage to power the systems and had to be sent back as well.



    We stopped carrying Acer altogether because three of its models had the absolute highest incidence of both returns and service requests in the region. We've had much the same problems with several Toshiba models as well.



    We've had two MacBooks and one iMac sent in for repair in eight months. So, with all do respect, given both my own personal experience and that of the company I work for, your experience is not a common one. I'm not confusing industrial design with quality, I'm simply used to both.



    Is Apple going to solve world hunger? Does that honestly sound like an even half-way reasonable bit of sarcasm to you? Is Apple gonna solve world hunger? No. Is handing Microsoft a bigger monopoly than it already has by ruining the only business model that has yet been able to stand effectively against it going to solve any of your problems? No. Is what you want going to compromise the experience I and many others have come to expect? Yes. You're selfish, plain and simple. You want what you want and you couldn't care less what the consequences are for others.



    And let's be honest if "it's a means to an end" is the way you define the world tool, then life itself must be utterly painful for you. Your wife/husband is just a way to have a baby or to not fill lonely. Your parents are just a way of financially supporting yourself until your old enough to get a job. And your life is just a means of getting to whatever you believe is or isn't in an afterlife. How you ever find space for sentiment in that kind of thought process I will never understand.



    Is everything Apple does and makes perfect? Of course not (nothing is). But the idea you have in your head that nothing is of any real consequence is almost philosophically offensive.
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