First, let me say I love you using a quote from store owner in the movie "Falling Down" to make your point.
Second, I'm not exactly sure how much AT&T "subsizes" the phone. Why don't I know? It's not in our contracts, or anywhere to be seen on their website.
I think what some of us want are more transparency in our contracts - like taking all the fine print and putting it on the advertisements in some form. Something like: "iPhone 3G, just $199 for two years - even if a new iPhone is released before that time."
I think a lot of us are with AT&T because of Apple - not by choice. And we want iPhones - and the current generation iPhone.
I know AT&T is making money off of us each month.
I pay for a higher rate plan because of the draconian fees charged if I go over my alloted minutes. So much so that I have 4,700 rollover minutes on my account. But If I change my minute plan I lose all of my rollover minutes over the amount offered per month on the new plan by AT&T.
So paying them $20 less a month I would lose 4,000 minutes that I had previously paid for - that's $350 worth of minutes under the new plan and literally several thousand dollars worth of minutes if I used an equalliavnt amount on a lower plan with no rollover bank. How is that fair? Not very - but it is in the contract.
The contracts HIGHLY favor AT&T - and you're in here defending poor AT&T who can't get a fair shake from crazy iPhone WHINERS!
AT&T may have us legally on this - but in no way is it fair. And it's not WHINING to point this out. it may even ultimately help us to get a fairer deal.
Or let me translate for you "Boo hoo! me want a more level playing field on my contwack . Whhaa-whaa! Me think AT&T is using it's unfair bidness prawticted aginstst all us poor whiddle users. Wha!! Its wegal but shady. (Here I poop my pants and cry for my mommy.)"
Dude. The point you and others seem incapable of grasping is that everything you're railing against is bone stock standard practices for the entire. ****. Cell phone. Industry.
It's how they've sold phones for the last 10 years. It's how they'll sell phones next year and the next. AT&T. Verizon. Sprint. T-Mobile. The Blackberry. HTC. LG. Nokia.
There is nothing unusual about what AT&T is doing, not with the iPhone, not with the contracts, not with nothing. Nothing. No how. Stop. Please. For the baby Jesus.
If you want to carry on about the cell phone industry sucking, by all means. But for the love of God could you people stop acting like you fell off a turnip truck and came into the big city to buy you a damn iPhone as the very first phone you had ever owned, all full of bright promise and joyful anticipation, only to find yourself all bitter and shattered cause the mean city slickers used their fancy talk and slick ways to trick you?
KNOWING THIS IS TRUE IS NOT **** BEING AN APOLOGIST FOR AT&T. IT IS JUST KNOWING SOMETHING TRIVIAL ABOUT HOW THE DAMN WORLD WORKS.
Wow. Ok. Well maybe I am not coming off the way I intended...
I am not defending AT&T, or at least I am not trying to. I am just saying that AT&T is just like the other providers out there with this upgrade nonsense.
I agree with you that things lilke subsidized cost and upgrade requirements or matricies should be stated clearly in the contract.
But, in my defense...most of the bitching on this website has been 1 or 2 lines of "This is crap" and "If they think this is fair..." There has not been as much discussion about the clearity of the contracts.
Those were the issues I was addressing. Do I think iPhone 3G owners are whining about having to pay $200 more to upgrade? Yes, the majority of them are. It just annoys me because I have had to wait for eligibility with my last 6 phone upgrades, that is how it works.
Also, if Apple felt that AT&T should subsidize the iPhone EVERY year, then they would have included that in the exclusivity contract they entered into. Obviously, Apple is ok with AT&T resorting to their standard upgrade procedures, or at least they were aware of it.
dude. The point you and others seem incapable of grasping is that everything you're railing against is bone stock standard practices for the entire. ****. Cell phone. Industry.
It's how they've sold phones for the last 10 years. It's how they'll sell phones next year and the next. At&t. Verizon. Sprint. T-mobile. The blackberry. Htc. Lg. Nokia.
there is nothing unusual about what at&t is doing, not with the iphone, not with the contracts, not with nothing. nothing. No how. Stop. Please. For the baby jesus.
If you want to carry on about the cell phone industry sucking, by all means. But for the love of god could you people stop acting like you fell off a turnip truck and came into the big city to buy you a damn iphone as the very first phone you had ever owned, all full of bright promise and joyful anticipation, only to find yourself all bitter and shattered cause the mean city slickers used their fancy talk and slick ways to trick you?
Knowing this is true is not **** being an apologist for at&t. It is just knowing something trivial about how the damn world works.
Dude. The point you and others seem incapable of grasping is that everything you're railing against is bone stock standard practices for the entire. . Cell phone. Industry.
It's how they've sold phones for the last 10 years. It's how they'll sell phones next year and the next. AT&T. Verizon. Sprint. T-Mobile. The Blackberry. HTC. LG. Nokia.
There is nothing unusual about what AT&T is doing, not with the iPhone, not with the contracts, not with nothing. Nothing. No how. Stop. Please. For the baby Jesus.
If you want to carry on about the cell phone industry sucking, by all means. But for the love of God could you people stop acting like you fell off a turnip truck and came into the big city to buy you a damn iPhone as the very first phone you had ever owned, all full of bright promise and joyful anticipation, only to find yourself all bitter and shattered cause the mean city slickers used their fancy talk and slick ways to trick you?
KNOWING THIS IS TRUE IS NOT BEING AN APOLOGIST FOR AT&T. IT IS JUST KNOWING SOMETHING TRIVIAL ABOUT HOW THE DAMN WORLD WORKS.
No, it's being an apologizst for a consumer unfriendly system. We know that the system currently works this way - and we want it to change.
Some people consider it whining. Others consider unfair to our corporate overlords.
The contracts for nearly all cell phone carriers are completely unfair to the consumer. And becuase we signed them they are legally binding. It doesn't mean that we can't ask for a change. And if AT&T agrees we can sign a different contract.
I thought this is how the free market was supposed to work? Or is it supposed to only work in the way where a corporation has an advantage? or the party who thinks they are not being treated fairly needs to shut up and "take it like a man"( or some other macho line that an alcholoic dad would yell after punching his child at a soccer game?)
I again totally understand what you are saying here as well. But, the logical side of me simply says "then don't sign the contract". I don't think the corporations should rule the world, but on the flip side, you cannot "change" anything by signing a contract with them, pay them regularly and then bitch to them.
If anyone in here feels that this is an unfair practice by AT&T or cellular providers as a whole, then DO NOT ENTER INTO A CONTRACT with them. Refuse to buy an iPhone until they reveal the details you wish to see in your contract. Send letters to them stating this. Stand outside the stores with a sign warning others. Will this work? Who knows, but it sounds like a path to change, or at least more effective then buying their product, agreeing to their terms, paying them as agreed to and then saying "by the way, this is totally unfair..."
Quote:
Originally Posted by tomhayes
No, it's being an apologizst for a consumer unfriendly system. We know that the system currently works this way - and we want it to change.
Some people consider it whining. Others consider unfair to our corporate overlords.
The contracts for nearly all cell phone carriers are completely unfair to the consumer. And becuase we signed them they are legally binding. It doesn't mean that we can't ask for a change. And if AT&T agrees we can sign a different contract.
I thought this is how the free market was supposed to work? Or is it supposed to only work in the way where a corporation has an advantage? or the party who thinks they are not being treated fairly needs to shut up and "take it like a man"( or some other macho line that an alcholoic dad would yell after punching his child at a soccer game?)
Wow. Ok. Well maybe I am not coming off the way I intended...
I am not defending AT&T, or at least I am not trying to. I am just saying that AT&T is just like the other providers out there with this upgrade nonsense.
Those were the issues I was addressing. Do I think iPhone 3G owners are whining about having to pay $200 more to upgrade? Yes, the majority of them are. It just annoys me because I have had to wait for eligibility with my last 6 phone upgrades, that is how it works.
.
Why is it WHINING if someone voices the opinion that they are being treated UNFAIRLY?
That's my beef.
It's the same language used by some in politics who say the people we tortured where WHINERS becuase wanted the torture to stop. Or that women were WHINERS when asking for the vote.
Or that freed slaves in the south WHINED about the literacy test and poll taxes.
Now - a smart phone is NOWHERE is important as those other issues - but it does seem to be a pathology used by people to defend the status quo against change. Change that will sometimes make a system more fair.
Just state your willingness to keep the unfair status quo system in place we'll accept that - or log off this thread and enjoy the WHINERS who WHINE about no firewire ports, or that the 30" displays are due for a refresh in other threads
I again totally understand what you are saying here as well. But, the logical side of me simply says "then don't sign the contract". I don't think the corporations should rule the world, but on the flip side, you cannot "change" anything by signing a contract with them, pay them regularly and then bitch to them.
Why Not?? It doesn't mean the "bitching" or - as some WHINERS would call it - asking to re-negotiate with a company is bad in itself? They could jsut say "NO" couldn't they? And legally they'd just continue to collect form the contract.
Quote:
Originally Posted by DustinLH00
If anyone in here feels that this is an unfair practice by AT&T or cellular providers as a whole, then DO NOT ENTER INTO A CONTRACT with them. Refuse to buy an iPhone until they reveal the details you wish to see in your contract. Send letters to them stating this. Stand outside the stores with a sign warning others. Will this work? Who knows, but it sounds like a path to change, or at least more effective then buying their product, agreeing to their terms, paying them as agreed to and then saying "by the way, this is totally unfair..."
Why can't we do this after we discover how unfair the contract is? What's your beef? Life is unfair so we should capitulate like you did with your last 6 cell phone contracts?
(And isn't that also the solution for unwanted teen pregnancy too - don't have teen sex? How's that working out in the "real world"?)
Why is it WHINING if someone voices the opinion that they are being treated UNFAIRLY?
That's my beef.
It's the same language used by some in politics who say the people we tortured where WHINERS becuase wanted the torture to stop. Or that women were WHINERS when asking for the vote.
Or that freed slaves in the south WHINED about the literacy test and poll taxes.
Now - a smart phone is NOWHERE is important as those other issues - but it does seem to be a pathology used by people to defend the status quo against change. Change that will sometimes make a system more fair.
Just state your willingness to keep the unfair status quo system in place we'll accept that - or log off this thread and enjoy the WHINERS who WHINE about no firewire ports, or that the 30" displays are due for a refresh in other threads
The question really is whether you ARE being treated unfairly, or whether you just want something that you can't have.
Just because you can't get what you want doesn't mean that you're being treated unfairly.
Did you read the entire contract before signing up?
No? Well then who's being unfair? Possibly you are.
Companies are in business to make money. They work out what they have to do in order to accomplish that.
I keep telling people to find these things out before they do anything.
The only reason that people are "whining" about it is because they got to upgrade early last time and they are not going to be able to do so this time. Thats it. There are the select few of you (you included) that are actually stating they want change to occurr with the contracts and standards of conduct. That is different. But the majority of people out there that are doing all the bitching, dont give a fuck about the contracts, rules, guidelines, upgrade policies, etc. They just want their damn new iPhone for the cheaper price. Those are the people I am upset with.
Quote:
Originally Posted by tomhayes
Why is it WHINING if someone voices the opinion that they are being treated UNFAIRLY?
That's my beef.
It's the same language used by some in politics who say the people we tortured where WHINERS becuase wanted the torture to stop. Or that women were WHINERS when asking for the vote.
Or that freed slaves in the south WHINED about the literacy test and poll taxes.
Now - a smart phone is NOWHERE is important as those other issues - but it does seem to be a pathology used by people to defend the status quo against change. Change that will sometimes make a system more fair.
Just state your willingness to keep the unfair status quo system in place we'll accept that - or log off this thread and enjoy the WHINERS who WHINE about no firewire ports, or that the 30" displays are due for a refresh in other threads
Why Not?? It doesn't mean the "bitching" or - as some WHINERS would call it - asking to re-negotiate with a company is bad in itself? They could jsut say "NO" couldn't they? And legally they'd just continue to collect form the contract.
You can always ask them. If they say no this is what you agreed to, then you've got nothing more to argue.
Quote:
Why can't we do this after we discover how unfair the contract is? What's your beef? Life is unfair so we should capitulate like you did with your last 6 cell phone contracts?
I already answered this, but I'll do it again, as you keep repeating it in several posts.
Just because you aren't happy with something doesn't mean it's unfair.
The question really is whether you ARE being treated unfairly, or whether you just want something that you can't have.
Just because you can't get what you want doesn't mean that you're being treated unfairly.
Did you read the entire contract before signing up?
No? Well then who's being unfair? Possibly you are.
Companies are in business to make money. They work out what they have to do in order to accomplish that.
I keep telling people to find these things out before they do anything.
We seem to have an fairly large consensus on this thread, from all sides , that the cell phone industries practices are unfair.
And because a company is making money with an unfair, BUT LEGALLY BINDING CONTRACT, why should we not voice our displeasure? Companies are in business to make money - and they can make a lot more money with unfair contracts -ala the company store, or payday loans.
"Don't sign. Don't complain. Unfairness is only caused by complaining.If I complain then it's my fault. Take a look in the mirror before you try to change the world. I would have told you this if I was your friend."
Go ahead. Call AT&T right now and ask to re-negotiate your contract. Please, I will wait up to find out what they said. I have already stated what my beef is. According to 90% of the forums and blogs I have read the past 48 hours, its only the iPhone 3G users that are getting the shaft, thats my beef. Poor guys, can't upgrade every 11 months, how unfair.
I just know that Sprint, Verizon, AT&T, T-Mobile, Alltel, etc... all have the same **** upgrade policies. Now you can have your wet dream that you will be able to renegotiate your contract. Or, you can just face reality and that is pay the full price for the fucking phone and do what you please or sign the unfair contract and get a discount.
Quote:
Originally Posted by tomhayes
Why Not?? It doesn't mean the "bitching" or - as some WHINERS would call it - asking to re-negotiate with a company is bad in itself? They could jsut say "NO" couldn't they? And legally they'd just continue to collect form the contract.
Why can't we do this after we discover how unfair the contract is? What's your beef? Life is unfair so we should capitulate like you did with your last 6 cell phone contracts?
(And isn't that also the solution for unwanted teen pregnancy too - don't have teen sex? How's that working out in the "real world"?)
OK, Payday loans. Perfect example! Or, at least much better than torture and teen pregnancy...
What logical person in their right mind would sign a contract on a PayDay loan with an estimated 120% APR, then AFTER signing start bitching and say this is unfair. Seriously? You are going to take out the loan, THEN say you guys suck???
If you want to change the PayDay loan industry and require them to, lets say disclose their APR in plain wording and require them to lower the rate that they charge, you do so by fighting their practices and not funding their continued corruption/standard practices!
Quote:
Originally Posted by tomhayes
We seem to have an fairly large consensus on this thread, from all sides , that the cell phone industries practices are unfair.
And because a company is making money with an unfair, BUT LEGALLY BINDING CONTRACT, why should we not voice our displeasure? Companies are in business to make money - and they can make a lot more money with unfair contracts -ala the company store, or payday loans.
"Don't sign. Don't complain. Unfairness is only caused by complaining.If I complain then it's my fault. Take a look in the mirror before you try to change the world. I would have told you this if I was your friend."
1)Let iphone users update every year. <-Probably not going to happen with AT&T.
2)Add the cost of the Early Termination Fee (ETF) (,which congress mandated be a prorated against the carrier's vocal protest,) to end the current contract and then give the subsidized price while having to sign a new contract. <- This would average $125 for the upgrade to current iPhone 3g users who got it on launch day.
I think option 2 would be reasonable for AT&T, and not be unfair to current subscribers. But the extra $75 dollars between the upgrade price and the ETF fee seems like pure profit for AT&T - whcih companies like - and consumers don't.
OK, Payday loans. Perfect example! Or, at least much better than torture and teen pregnancy...
What logical person in their right mind would sign a contract on a PayDay loan with an estimated 120% APR, then AFTER signing start bitching and say this is unfair. Seriously? You are going to take out the loan, THEN say you guys suck???
If you want to change the PayDay loan industry and require them to, lets say disclose their APR in plain wording and require them to lower the rate that they charge, you do so by fighting their practices and not funding their continued corruption/standard practices!
If you think PayDay loans are a-ok then we shall *never* agree on this issue. Let's agree to disagree and be done with it.
It's not a point you can disagree on. It's a fact. People want many things they can't have. It doesn't make it unfair.
You can argue on exactly why you think THIS situation is unfair.
But you need to give specific points, and show why what you say shows how they're being unfair. A generalized complaint doesn't say anything.
You're not happy because you can't upgrade now and get the full discount? Or in a month? Or three months, etc?
Exactly WHY is that unfair?
It's not unfair just because you say it is.
.
As stated I think the contracts favor AT&T too much - for upgrades cost (125 ETF vs. 200 UPGRADE), for rollover minutes, for minute overage charges. That is my *opinion.* Your opinion differs. Let's agree to disagree.
Comments
Think about it.
First, let me say I love you using a quote from store owner in the movie "Falling Down" to make your point.
Second, I'm not exactly sure how much AT&T "subsizes" the phone. Why don't I know? It's not in our contracts, or anywhere to be seen on their website.
I think what some of us want are more transparency in our contracts - like taking all the fine print and putting it on the advertisements in some form. Something like: "iPhone 3G, just $199 for two years - even if a new iPhone is released before that time."
I think a lot of us are with AT&T because of Apple - not by choice. And we want iPhones - and the current generation iPhone.
I know AT&T is making money off of us each month.
I pay for a higher rate plan because of the draconian fees charged if I go over my alloted minutes. So much so that I have 4,700 rollover minutes on my account. But If I change my minute plan I lose all of my rollover minutes over the amount offered per month on the new plan by AT&T.
So paying them $20 less a month I would lose 4,000 minutes that I had previously paid for - that's $350 worth of minutes under the new plan and literally several thousand dollars worth of minutes if I used an equalliavnt amount on a lower plan with no rollover bank. How is that fair? Not very - but it is in the contract.
The contracts HIGHLY favor AT&T - and you're in here defending poor AT&T who can't get a fair shake from crazy iPhone WHINERS!
AT&T may have us legally on this - but in no way is it fair. And it's not WHINING to point this out. it may even ultimately help us to get a fairer deal.
Or let me translate for you "Boo hoo! me want a more level playing field on my contwack . Whhaa-whaa! Me think AT&T is using it's unfair bidness prawticted aginstst all us poor whiddle users. Wha!! Its wegal but shady. (Here I poop my pants and cry for my mommy.)"
It's how they've sold phones for the last 10 years. It's how they'll sell phones next year and the next. AT&T. Verizon. Sprint. T-Mobile. The Blackberry. HTC. LG. Nokia.
There is nothing unusual about what AT&T is doing, not with the iPhone, not with the contracts, not with nothing. Nothing. No how. Stop. Please. For the baby Jesus.
If you want to carry on about the cell phone industry sucking, by all means. But for the love of God could you people stop acting like you fell off a turnip truck and came into the big city to buy you a damn iPhone as the very first phone you had ever owned, all full of bright promise and joyful anticipation, only to find yourself all bitter and shattered cause the mean city slickers used their fancy talk and slick ways to trick you?
KNOWING THIS IS TRUE IS NOT **** BEING AN APOLOGIST FOR AT&T. IT IS JUST KNOWING SOMETHING TRIVIAL ABOUT HOW THE DAMN WORLD WORKS.
EDIT: Enough already.
I am not defending AT&T, or at least I am not trying to. I am just saying that AT&T is just like the other providers out there with this upgrade nonsense.
I agree with you that things lilke subsidized cost and upgrade requirements or matricies should be stated clearly in the contract.
But, in my defense...most of the bitching on this website has been 1 or 2 lines of "This is crap" and "If they think this is fair..." There has not been as much discussion about the clearity of the contracts.
Those were the issues I was addressing. Do I think iPhone 3G owners are whining about having to pay $200 more to upgrade? Yes, the majority of them are. It just annoys me because I have had to wait for eligibility with my last 6 phone upgrades, that is how it works.
Also, if Apple felt that AT&T should subsidize the iPhone EVERY year, then they would have included that in the exclusivity contract they entered into. Obviously, Apple is ok with AT&T resorting to their standard upgrade procedures, or at least they were aware of it.
dude. The point you and others seem incapable of grasping is that everything you're railing against is bone stock standard practices for the entire. ****. Cell phone. Industry.
It's how they've sold phones for the last 10 years. It's how they'll sell phones next year and the next. At&t. Verizon. Sprint. T-mobile. The blackberry. Htc. Lg. Nokia.
there is nothing unusual about what at&t is doing, not with the iphone, not with the contracts, not with nothing. nothing. No how. Stop. Please. For the baby jesus.
If you want to carry on about the cell phone industry sucking, by all means. But for the love of god could you people stop acting like you fell off a turnip truck and came into the big city to buy you a damn iphone as the very first phone you had ever owned, all full of bright promise and joyful anticipation, only to find yourself all bitter and shattered cause the mean city slickers used their fancy talk and slick ways to trick you?
Knowing this is true is not **** being an apologist for at&t. It is just knowing something trivial about how the damn world works.
Dude. The point you and others seem incapable of grasping is that everything you're railing against is bone stock standard practices for the entire. . Cell phone. Industry.
It's how they've sold phones for the last 10 years. It's how they'll sell phones next year and the next. AT&T. Verizon. Sprint. T-Mobile. The Blackberry. HTC. LG. Nokia.
There is nothing unusual about what AT&T is doing, not with the iPhone, not with the contracts, not with nothing. Nothing. No how. Stop. Please. For the baby Jesus.
If you want to carry on about the cell phone industry sucking, by all means. But for the love of God could you people stop acting like you fell off a turnip truck and came into the big city to buy you a damn iPhone as the very first phone you had ever owned, all full of bright promise and joyful anticipation, only to find yourself all bitter and shattered cause the mean city slickers used their fancy talk and slick ways to trick you?
KNOWING THIS IS TRUE IS NOT BEING AN APOLOGIST FOR AT&T. IT IS JUST KNOWING SOMETHING TRIVIAL ABOUT HOW THE DAMN WORLD WORKS.
No, it's being an apologizst for a consumer unfriendly system. We know that the system currently works this way - and we want it to change.
Some people consider it whining. Others consider unfair to our corporate overlords.
The contracts for nearly all cell phone carriers are completely unfair to the consumer. And becuase we signed them they are legally binding. It doesn't mean that we can't ask for a change. And if AT&T agrees we can sign a different contract.
I thought this is how the free market was supposed to work? Or is it supposed to only work in the way where a corporation has an advantage? or the party who thinks they are not being treated fairly needs to shut up and "take it like a man"( or some other macho line that an alcholoic dad would yell after punching his child at a soccer game?)
If anyone in here feels that this is an unfair practice by AT&T or cellular providers as a whole, then DO NOT ENTER INTO A CONTRACT with them. Refuse to buy an iPhone until they reveal the details you wish to see in your contract. Send letters to them stating this. Stand outside the stores with a sign warning others. Will this work? Who knows, but it sounds like a path to change, or at least more effective then buying their product, agreeing to their terms, paying them as agreed to and then saying "by the way, this is totally unfair..."
No, it's being an apologizst for a consumer unfriendly system. We know that the system currently works this way - and we want it to change.
Some people consider it whining. Others consider unfair to our corporate overlords.
The contracts for nearly all cell phone carriers are completely unfair to the consumer. And becuase we signed them they are legally binding. It doesn't mean that we can't ask for a change. And if AT&T agrees we can sign a different contract.
I thought this is how the free market was supposed to work? Or is it supposed to only work in the way where a corporation has an advantage? or the party who thinks they are not being treated fairly needs to shut up and "take it like a man"( or some other macho line that an alcholoic dad would yell after punching his child at a soccer game?)
Wow. Ok. Well maybe I am not coming off the way I intended...
I am not defending AT&T, or at least I am not trying to. I am just saying that AT&T is just like the other providers out there with this upgrade nonsense.
Those were the issues I was addressing. Do I think iPhone 3G owners are whining about having to pay $200 more to upgrade? Yes, the majority of them are. It just annoys me because I have had to wait for eligibility with my last 6 phone upgrades, that is how it works.
.
Why is it WHINING if someone voices the opinion that they are being treated UNFAIRLY?
That's my beef.
It's the same language used by some in politics who say the people we tortured where WHINERS becuase wanted the torture to stop. Or that women were WHINERS when asking for the vote.
Or that freed slaves in the south WHINED about the literacy test and poll taxes.
Now - a smart phone is NOWHERE is important as those other issues - but it does seem to be a pathology used by people to defend the status quo against change. Change that will sometimes make a system more fair.
Just state your willingness to keep the unfair status quo system in place we'll accept that - or log off this thread and enjoy the WHINERS who WHINE about no firewire ports, or that the 30" displays are due for a refresh in other threads
I again totally understand what you are saying here as well. But, the logical side of me simply says "then don't sign the contract". I don't think the corporations should rule the world, but on the flip side, you cannot "change" anything by signing a contract with them, pay them regularly and then bitch to them.
Why Not?? It doesn't mean the "bitching" or - as some WHINERS would call it - asking to re-negotiate with a company is bad in itself? They could jsut say "NO" couldn't they? And legally they'd just continue to collect form the contract.
If anyone in here feels that this is an unfair practice by AT&T or cellular providers as a whole, then DO NOT ENTER INTO A CONTRACT with them. Refuse to buy an iPhone until they reveal the details you wish to see in your contract. Send letters to them stating this. Stand outside the stores with a sign warning others. Will this work? Who knows, but it sounds like a path to change, or at least more effective then buying their product, agreeing to their terms, paying them as agreed to and then saying "by the way, this is totally unfair..."
Why can't we do this after we discover how unfair the contract is? What's your beef? Life is unfair so we should capitulate like you did with your last 6 cell phone contracts?
(And isn't that also the solution for unwanted teen pregnancy too - don't have teen sex? How's that working out in the "real world"?)
Why is it WHINING if someone voices the opinion that they are being treated UNFAIRLY?
That's my beef.
It's the same language used by some in politics who say the people we tortured where WHINERS becuase wanted the torture to stop. Or that women were WHINERS when asking for the vote.
Or that freed slaves in the south WHINED about the literacy test and poll taxes.
Now - a smart phone is NOWHERE is important as those other issues - but it does seem to be a pathology used by people to defend the status quo against change. Change that will sometimes make a system more fair.
Just state your willingness to keep the unfair status quo system in place we'll accept that - or log off this thread and enjoy the WHINERS who WHINE about no firewire ports, or that the 30" displays are due for a refresh in other threads
The question really is whether you ARE being treated unfairly, or whether you just want something that you can't have.
Just because you can't get what you want doesn't mean that you're being treated unfairly.
Did you read the entire contract before signing up?
No? Well then who's being unfair? Possibly you are.
Companies are in business to make money. They work out what they have to do in order to accomplish that.
I keep telling people to find these things out before they do anything.
Why is it WHINING if someone voices the opinion that they are being treated UNFAIRLY?
That's my beef.
It's the same language used by some in politics who say the people we tortured where WHINERS becuase wanted the torture to stop. Or that women were WHINERS when asking for the vote.
Or that freed slaves in the south WHINED about the literacy test and poll taxes.
Now - a smart phone is NOWHERE is important as those other issues - but it does seem to be a pathology used by people to defend the status quo against change. Change that will sometimes make a system more fair.
Just state your willingness to keep the unfair status quo system in place we'll accept that - or log off this thread and enjoy the WHINERS who WHINE about no firewire ports, or that the 30" displays are due for a refresh in other threads
Why Not?? It doesn't mean the "bitching" or - as some WHINERS would call it - asking to re-negotiate with a company is bad in itself? They could jsut say "NO" couldn't they? And legally they'd just continue to collect form the contract.
You can always ask them. If they say no this is what you agreed to, then you've got nothing more to argue.
Why can't we do this after we discover how unfair the contract is? What's your beef? Life is unfair so we should capitulate like you did with your last 6 cell phone contracts?
I already answered this, but I'll do it again, as you keep repeating it in several posts.
Just because you aren't happy with something doesn't mean it's unfair.
The question really is whether you ARE being treated unfairly, or whether you just want something that you can't have.
Just because you can't get what you want doesn't mean that you're being treated unfairly.
Did you read the entire contract before signing up?
No? Well then who's being unfair? Possibly you are.
Companies are in business to make money. They work out what they have to do in order to accomplish that.
I keep telling people to find these things out before they do anything.
We seem to have an fairly large consensus on this thread, from all sides , that the cell phone industries practices are unfair.
And because a company is making money with an unfair, BUT LEGALLY BINDING CONTRACT, why should we not voice our displeasure? Companies are in business to make money - and they can make a lot more money with unfair contracts -ala the company store, or payday loans.
"Don't sign. Don't complain. Unfairness is only caused by complaining.If I complain then it's my fault. Take a look in the mirror before you try to change the world. I would have told you this if I was your friend."
Did I sumamrize your points for you?
I just know that Sprint, Verizon, AT&T, T-Mobile, Alltel, etc... all have the same **** upgrade policies. Now you can have your wet dream that you will be able to renegotiate your contract. Or, you can just face reality and that is pay the full price for the fucking phone and do what you please or sign the unfair contract and get a discount.
Why Not?? It doesn't mean the "bitching" or - as some WHINERS would call it - asking to re-negotiate with a company is bad in itself? They could jsut say "NO" couldn't they? And legally they'd just continue to collect form the contract.
Why can't we do this after we discover how unfair the contract is? What's your beef? Life is unfair so we should capitulate like you did with your last 6 cell phone contracts?
(And isn't that also the solution for unwanted teen pregnancy too - don't have teen sex? How's that working out in the "real world"?)
EDIT: language
You can always ask them. If they say no this is what you agreed to, then you've got nothing more to argue.
I already answered this, but I'll do it again, as you keep repeating it in several posts.
Just because you aren't happy with something doesn't mean it's unfair.
And just because you repeat it doesn't mean it's true. We disagree on this point.
What logical person in their right mind would sign a contract on a PayDay loan with an estimated 120% APR, then AFTER signing start bitching and say this is unfair. Seriously? You are going to take out the loan, THEN say you guys suck???
If you want to change the PayDay loan industry and require them to, lets say disclose their APR in plain wording and require them to lower the rate that they charge, you do so by fighting their practices and not funding their continued corruption/standard practices!
We seem to have an fairly large consensus on this thread, from all sides , that the cell phone industries practices are unfair.
And because a company is making money with an unfair, BUT LEGALLY BINDING CONTRACT, why should we not voice our displeasure? Companies are in business to make money - and they can make a lot more money with unfair contracts -ala the company store, or payday loans.
"Don't sign. Don't complain. Unfairness is only caused by complaining.If I complain then it's my fault. Take a look in the mirror before you try to change the world. I would have told you this if I was your friend."
Did I sumamrize your points for you?
1)Let iphone users update every year. <-Probably not going to happen with AT&T.
2)Add the cost of the Early Termination Fee (ETF) (,which congress mandated be a prorated against the carrier's vocal protest,) to end the current contract and then give the subsidized price while having to sign a new contract. <- This would average $125 for the upgrade to current iPhone 3g users who got it on launch day.
I think option 2 would be reasonable for AT&T, and not be unfair to current subscribers. But the extra $75 dollars between the upgrade price and the ETF fee seems like pure profit for AT&T - whcih companies like - and consumers don't.
OK, Payday loans. Perfect example! Or, at least much better than torture and teen pregnancy...
What logical person in their right mind would sign a contract on a PayDay loan with an estimated 120% APR, then AFTER signing start bitching and say this is unfair. Seriously? You are going to take out the loan, THEN say you guys suck???
If you want to change the PayDay loan industry and require them to, lets say disclose their APR in plain wording and require them to lower the rate that they charge, you do so by fighting their practices and not funding their continued corruption/standard practices!
If you think PayDay loans are a-ok then we shall *never* agree on this issue. Let's agree to disagree and be done with it.
Watch the language or I'm going to start deleting posts?for a start.
And just because you repeat it doesn't mean it's true. We disagree on this point.
It's not a point you can disagree on. It's a fact. People want many things they can't have. It doesn't make it unfair.
You can argue on exactly why you think THIS situation is unfair.
But you need to give specific points, and show why what you say shows how they're being unfair. A generalized complaint doesn't say anything.
You're not happy because you can't upgrade now and get the full discount? Or in a month? Or three months, etc?
Exactly WHY is that unfair?
It's not unfair just because you say it is.
It's not a point you can disagree on. It's a fact. People want many things they can't have. It doesn't make it unfair.
You can argue on exactly why you think THIS situation is unfair.
But you need to give specific points, and show why what you say shows how they're being unfair. A generalized complaint doesn't say anything.
You're not happy because you can't upgrade now and get the full discount? Or in a month? Or three months, etc?
Exactly WHY is that unfair?
It's not unfair just because you say it is.
.
As stated I think the contracts favor AT&T too much - for upgrades cost (125 ETF vs. 200 UPGRADE), for rollover minutes, for minute overage charges. That is my *opinion.* Your opinion differs. Let's agree to disagree.
Let's leave it at that.