Snow Leopard gets richer, thinner, cheaper than Windows 7



  • Reply 81 of 190
    tawilsontawilson Posts: 484member
    Originally Posted by cycomiko View Post

    If vista never gained traction, does that means OSX has never gained traction ?

    Vista never gained traction in the older Windows marketplace it was intended to replace. OS X was never intended to replace the older Windows marketplace, so that comparison is largely irrelevant.
  • Reply 82 of 190
    tiadimundotiadimundo Posts: 153member
    Originally Posted by DocNo42 View Post

    Um, no. Until they were recently forced to stop by Microsoft, manufacturers like Dell prominently advertised the XP downgrade option, even go so far as to pre-load XP on the machines. It was a very popular option according to our Dell sales team...

    It was only available as an option for Vista Ultimate and Business on selected stores. While Vista Home Premium is the top-selling version and even people who bought the option to downgrade may not have switched back I really doubt that it ever was popular.

    Maybe on the enterprise marked, but that's nothing new to Vista because a lot of big companies want to buy new hardware with an old OS to integrate in their environment.
  • Reply 83 of 190
    I know this sounds nit picky, but please use better grammar.

    "There's no rules that define how developers must number their software..."

    It should be "There ARE no rules that define how developers must number their software..."
  • Reply 84 of 190
    abster2coreabster2core Posts: 2,501member
    Originally Posted by Macintosh_Next View Post

    Yes, but G5 can not run Snow Leopard.

    I didn't say it did. That is why I posted #34 shortly after.
  • Reply 85 of 190
    taurontauron Posts: 911member
    Originally Posted by bitzandbitez View Post

    well try reading this article; which isn't propaGanda from AI -its from a different source with the TRUTH & CONSEQUENCEs of Windoze BLOATWARE and why MICRO$HIT has so many problems..

    then repost here...

    there was a song way back when and it went something like ...


    The Truth and the Consequences

    Micro$hit cannot prevent interlopers from corrupting the system and the computer hardware resources. Micro$hit can tell you after the fact you need to restore your system because it's been compromised but they can't stop it from happening in the first place. No other operating system does this. It's not a real operating system if you can't protect resources including the system code itself and Windows can't do that. Not today, not tomorrow, not ever.

    Ordinary program files can't be protected. Rootkits are installed with the greatest of ease - and without relying on social engineering to escalate privileges. Malware abounds - over 100,000 strains in the wild. And so forth. This is the price to pay for putting a standalone single user system on the Internet without a thought to the safety of one's paying customers.

    Why won't Micro$hit improve things? Because they can't. Because they have so many millions of third party software titles they depend on. These titles would break under a new system. Operating system vendors need a thriving third party software market to survive - but it works the other way around too: if the third party software sector grows too big it can prevent the operating system vendor from making changes that need to be made.

    Micro$hit could ship Windows sandboxed in Linux; but then every Windows user would have access to Linux and third party software would just ignore Windows in the future. Micro$hit would lose their stranglehold on the personal computing market.

    In a world of pervasive networking even an operating system designed for single user use needs multiuser capability because without that any network transaction that can trick a user into running malicious code that will subvert the entire system. Without strong multitasking the ability of an operating system to handle network traffic and run user programs at the same time will be impaired.

    As the designers of BeOS noticed, the requirements of pervasive networking cannot be met without implementing something very close to general purpose timesharing. Single user client operating systems cannot thrive in an Internetted world.

    Windows gets away with having severe deficiencies in these areas only by virtue of having developed a monopoly position before networking became really important and by having a user population that has been conditioned to accept a shocking frequency of crashes and security breaches as normal.

    This is not a stable situation. (and this DOESn't EXIST ON APPLE's MAC OS X LEOPARD)

    - Eric Raymond

    here is the entire article if you care to read...and LEARN something before you post here...,00.shtml

    This is the best article I have seen in a while.
  • Reply 86 of 190
    esxxiesxxi Posts: 75member
    Originally Posted by vinea View Post

    Downward pricing pressure? What downward pricing pressure? Windows is effectively free for most folks because they buy a whole new box every few years.

    Very few folks pay $300 for Vista.

    Nyyeaaaaah, 'cause manufacturers don't include the price of Windows in the package at all right? The cost doesn't magically go away just because they buy a premade config.
  • Reply 87 of 190
    nowayout11nowayout11 Posts: 326member
    Man, this AI article was painful. WAY too much effort to demonize MS.

    I haven't used Win7 a lot yet... not enough to come to a completely educated opinion, but I will say so far it sucks less than Vista. I haven't run all my apps on it yet, but at least as far as the initial tire-kicking goes, it's alright. It doesn't blow my skirt up, but it's not the demon spawn of the anti-Christ that the zealots tirelessly claim it is. 25 year old habits die hard.

    At the end of the day, since 90% of my time is in a web browser, email, and games, the OS really doesn't matter all that much. So no OS is going to "blow my skirt up" anymore.

    Are there any good, reputable Mac sites that don't require a "filter" to read the contents? I'm asking seriously.
  • Reply 88 of 190
    Originally Posted by vinea View Post

    Downward pricing pressure? What downward pricing pressure? Windows is effectively free for most folks because they buy a whole new box every few years.

    Very few folks pay $300 for Vista.

    Wrong. Actually many types of customers have to pay $300 for Vista, including those who build their own custom PC's, those who run Windows in VMs, etc. But what about OEM copies? OEM copy deals on Vista are very few and far between at the moment. When Windows 7 appears, the OEM copy deals will become more prevalent and more discounted. Even OEM copy deals on Windows XP are not very good, because most of these copies go to those who are unhappy with Windows Vista, and did not get a copy from the OEM, or must load Windows XP on a VM.
  • Reply 89 of 190
    Originally Posted by Virgil-TB2 View Post

    I can appreciate the hand wringing, but it certainly *is* to Apple's advantage to compare Snow Leopard and Windows 7 "head to head."

    This is exactly what they want and the comparison won't look good for Windows 7. The only current "big item" that Windows 7 does better than Snow Leopard is a few security features (which curiously didn't come up at the keynote). Unless Apple has made zero progress between leopard and Snow Leopard on things like address randomisation, Snow Leopard should blow Windows 7 out of the water on *any* feature and now on price as well.

    Address randomization? Yup, Apple has that covered in Snow Leopard too!
  • Reply 90 of 190
    Originally Posted by Alfiejr View Post

    well here is one huge significance you have missed. although you do have to connect some dots:

    - in January Apple introduces iWork 09 (for $20 per seat in family pack), which is now a complete office suite that could completely replace (the ridiculously overpriced @ $135 - the "Microsoft tax") MS Office for Mac users, except that it lacks Exchange/Entourage functions.

    - now in September Apple will add that Exchange support to Snow Leopard, which will enable Mail and iCal to completely replace Entourage for Mac users.

    that makes Snow Leopard the Mac Office 2008-"killer." and since MS makes several hundred million dollars per year selling Office to Mac owners, that is "significant." but even more significant is that it really makes life without any Microsoft product at all very possible for most people. and that is a threat of the gravest possible significance to MS long-term. a complete consumer escape route from their practical everyday multi-platform desktop software-required-by-services hegemony.

    No wonder MS is chasing after search and content ad revenue, they know that their gambit is UP!
  • Reply 91 of 190
    Originally Posted by Quadra 610 View Post

    You don't kill misguided (to the point of illness) people.

    There is no easy cure for Stockholm-syndrome.

    Users buy Apple prducts. Users perpetuate the hype (not Apple), and there is good reason for the hype. Most Windows users can't begin to understand how it is that Apple users are so enthusiastic. It doesn't happen out of thin air. It happens because we're getting some great tech from a company with the right attitude when it comes to design and the implementation thereof.

    Apple has the guts to always go on the attack. And that's what you're supposed to do. Apple is supremely confident in their product very simply because they have all the reason in the world to be. Steve Jobs comes right out and says MS has no taste. Bill Gates usually answers meekly about MS products (constantly), and Ballmer has been known to all but concede openly that MS is behind the curve. Something is defintely wrong when the Redmond powers-that-be misspeak like this. Their main differentiator is the poor-mans differentiator: price. Except there's a certain class of user that can easily tell the difference.

    But don't go spreading that around.

    Absolutely brilliantly put. Re-quoting for more to read this!
  • Reply 92 of 190
    An excellent article. Snow Leopard has many great features. They're not 'flashy' but they make it future proof, offer refinement and power. Plus, £19(?) for an OS upgrade? 'Yes please.'

    Picks up the M$ bat and pounds M$ into the ground.

    And rightly draws the conclusion that Apple are turning the 'mothership' irrevocably around to a full on all out assault on Redmond. They're slowly cutting off M$'s air supply.

    Now. I wonder...if Apple can do 'cheap'. iPhone $99. Snow Leopard? £19. A That's the last piece of the puzzle. Can Apple redefine a Mac eg Macbook as the 'cheap' laptop Mac for the rest of us. Clue: 13 inch Macbook promoted to Pro status. That leaves room for a redefine 'netbook' Macbook tablet thing. Say...£495-£795. 3 models. Blow the doors off the Mac 'tax' 'myth'. Something is afoot...

    Nuff said.

    Lemon Bon Bon.
  • Reply 93 of 190
    mechengitmechengit Posts: 133member
    I have no idea why the new OS X pricing will effect Microsoft at all. The new OS X pricing is only meaningful to those who has a Mac already. I must say this article over-magnified the retail pricing factor.

    Windows that are sold in retail only generates a very very very tiny revenue for Microsoft anyway. Only a very very very few, if any, Windows users that I know of have actually bought any Windows upgrade from a retail store. I mean, who will spend a $300 to make their existing computer slower, especially when the upgrade doesn't even bring any new features?

    These are the realities...

    1. Windows users are most likely to stick to their old Windows until they buy a new computer that comes with the new Windows, if they can't get one "free", legal or not.

    2. For those who legally upgrade their Windows in their existing computer, they actually got their Windows paid by their employer or school, which are the real Microsoft tax payers.

    3. OS X retail upgrade is not even intended to compete with Windows in the first place. I mean, will Windows users convert to Mac just because of the new OS X upgrade retail price? No! Will the new OS X upgrade retail price effect the corporates and schools' decision of upgrading their existing Windows PCs? No!

    So does the new OS X upgrade retail price hit Microsoft? Not at all, retail is not where the cash cow is for Microsoft and the new OS X upgrade in retail is not even competing with Windows at all.
  • Reply 94 of 190
    Originally Posted by TiAdiMundo View Post

    Oh my god...

    First: how you know that Snow Leopard will be cheaper than Windows 7? When you buy a new PC you will get a FREE upgrade to 7 soon. And even owners of old PCs can buy 7 and improve their system without buying new hardware. Snow Leopard only runs on the newest hardware (as you mentioned).

    Yeah, the "newest" 4 year old hardware. Microsoft was playing with the idea of limiting the base version of Windows 7 to run 3 applications simultaneously because the hardware running that version likely couldn't do more than that. The systems that run Vista like crap now will continue to run Windows 7 like crap.

    Originally Posted by TiAdiMundo View Post

    What's bad of delivering a free preview version of Windows 7 to customers? I smell envy here.

    "Many" users got to downgrade to XP? Many? Where? This was only a very special deal for enterprise customers from some suppliers. And mostly only for netbooks. Show me a < $ 300 netbook that runs Leopard officially, please!

    Not enterprise customers, you can buy a Dell with Vista Business and you get that XP downgrade, I perform at least 10 of these every weekend for people buying these Dells at the store I do service at. Consumers (non enterprise buyers) buy this version on purpose to get XP.

    Originally Posted by TiAdiMundo View Post

    Apple is rewarding its loyal customers? What? Charging for every single major update even for features that should have been there since 10.0 like the innovative (!) Put Back button in the trash?

    And Microsoft never charged people for upgrades to their OS?

    Originally Posted by TiAdiMundo View Post

    Why is it so difficult for the author to find proper arguments? There are a lot if you just try to think yourselve instead of repeating what Apple says on a marketing event.

    Because this is an an Apple-Centric Website (refer to name of the website), Just because there isn't criticism in every single article posted on this site doesn't mean Apple Users have no complaints.

    Originally Posted by TiAdiMundo View Post

    Here are some more questions to ask: when will the Mac see great speech recognition, powerful handwriting recognition (not only for single Chinese characters), Blu-Ray support, full out-of-the-box TV viewing and recording or a resolution indepentend UI like Vista delivers for 2 years now?

    I don't see the benefit of being uncritical to Apple.

    When did Vista Get out of the Box Blu-Ray Support? Oh yeah, they don't have it, Vista can now finally burn a DVD from Windows Explorer (something the Mac OS did from version 10.0. Heck, even 9.2.2 had that)
  • Reply 95 of 190
    mechengitmechengit Posts: 133member
    Originally Posted by TiAdiMundo View Post

    "Many" users got to downgrade to XP? Many? Where? This was only a very special deal for enterprise customers from some suppliers. And mostly only for netbooks.

    First, this is a pretty self-contradicting statement. Netbooks have made only a tiny progress in the enterprise market. Why would Microsoft make a downgrade deal for netbooks with the enterprise users when most enterprise users don't even use netbooks?

    Second, you don't have to be a enterprise customers to downgrade. This is no special deal at all. You can buy a ThinkPad that comes with "downgraded" Windows XP right on Lenovo's website, right there, right now! Lenovo doesn't even bother asking what corporate or company you are from. Go check it out yourself!

    Myth busted!
  • Reply 96 of 190
    javacowboyjavacowboy Posts: 864member
    Microsoft has more programming resources than Apple than are arguably just as skilled. In theory, Microsoft could develop far better operating systems and software than Apple. There's one very important reason why they don't, and it's the same problem that Sun has with Java:

    Backward compatibility.

    Apple barely solved this issue. They tried to install NeXTStep on all new Macs in 1997, but Adobe, Microsoft and Macromedia refused to support the new OS. Apple had to spend 5 years writing backward-compatible APIs into OS X (Carbon) before those companies would write software for the new OS. None of these companies has of yet rewritten their software in Cocoa.

    Sun is solving this issue by making Java modular, so that older APIs can be left out and added as optional components. Also, the JVM is being re-engineered to support new, modern languages like Scala and JavaFX, and letting the Java language become a legacy language.

    Microsoft is in a pickle, because they can't just in one fell swoop start selling a brand-new operating system from the ground up. They need to maintain all the legacy constructs such as DLL's, the Registry, and users running as root by default. They can try to code around these legacy constructs with features such as UAC. What's more, they need to pander to the content industry by introducing bottlenecks in their OS with constructs such as DRM and Blu-Ray support, which Apple has thus far refused to do (at least, from what is publicly known).

    However, Windows 7's XP mode may be an initial experiment by Microsoft to support legacy applications in VM, perhaps paving the way for a brand-new Windows OS at some point.

    Microsoft's business-savvy may be suspect these days (ex XBox, Bing, MSN), but they still have development resources that are not to be underestimated.
  • Reply 97 of 190
    gimpymwgimpymw Posts: 45member
    Originally Posted by vinea View Post

    Downward pricing pressure? What downward pricing pressure? Windows is effectively free for most folks because they buy a whole new box every few years.

    Very few folks pay $300 for Vista.

    They just go to their local mom and pop computer shop and buy the OEM version.
  • Reply 98 of 190
    c4rlobc4rlob Posts: 277member
    Originally Posted by AppleInsider View Post

    Even if Windows 7 gains traction in ways Vista never did, the downward pricing pressure Apple is exerting will prevent Microsoft from inhaling the inflated revenues the company has grown addicted to, which will benefit both Mac users and PC users. Additionally, it promises to potentially open up more opportunities for alternative operating systems such as Linux by cutting the dominating control Microsoft exercises over PC hardware vendors.

    I don't agree that the pricing pressure will result in a benefit to PC users - at least not anytime soon. Given the track record of Microsoft and it's hardware partners the result is likely to be some combination of lower quality and lower cost. Apple's genius and customers have been rewarding Apple with healthy profits for years now - on a whim Apple can pipe those rewards back to its customers or ideation. Apple once again proving - similar to the way Sony once did - that a person-friendly and holistic model beats a business-friendly and segmented model every time. Sony eventually stumbled; perhaps Apple can guard against a similar fate. Though Apple doesn't have to depend as heavily on Microsoft as Sony did, so that's a huge hurdle out of the way.
  • Reply 99 of 190
    c4rlobc4rlob Posts: 277member
    Originally Posted by mechengit View Post

    1. Windows users are most likely to stick to their old Windows until they buy a new computer that comes with the new Windows, if they can't get one "free", legal or not...

    So does the new OS X upgrade retail price hit Microsoft? Not at all, retail is not where the cash cow is for Microsoft and the new OS X upgrade in retail is not even competing with Windows at all.

    In my humble opinion your first point is flawed... like Independents in a presidential election, for Apple and Microsoft there's a battle raging for on-the-fence Switchers. The point that's being made is less about direct retail pressure and more about the indirect effects of the simplicity of Apple's strategy. No one can argue that Microsoft has taken a bigger hit than Apple from the economy and Vista's complexity. Windows 7 was a must-have release for Microsoft to help stabilize matters - and they delivered. But with Apple making Snow Leopard so easy to adopt, it makes MacBook users that much happier than Windows users were a year ago, which will effect market perception. And lower-priced MacBooks are going to be even more attractive to anyone in the market for a new laptop who would've otherwise been sufficiently consoled by the release of Windows 7. Think PC guys vs. Mac guy. even though comparing Windows 7 and Snow Leopard is like oranges and apples, the consumer world just sees two companies releasing a new OS at about the same time - so the comparison is unavoidable. One is more easily sold as an advancement the other more as a fix. One more as affordable and automatic, the other more expensive and complex.
  • Reply 100 of 190
    tt92618tt92618 Posts: 444member
    Originally Posted by DustinLH00 View Post

    I have a few questions for the author of the article:

    1) Pricing for Windows 7 has not been released yet, therefore how do you claim that Snow Leopard is cheaper? Now, granted, I do not expect Windows 7 to be $29 or less, but still I dont feel you can make that statement.

    2) Richer? Thinner? How can you judge 2 operating systems that are still technically being developed and/or refined. I do not think anyone should conclude anything until final products are released to the consumer.

    3) Have you personally installed Windows 7 RC and used it? How can you make statements and tie it so closely to Vista without using it?

    4) Personally I am sick of all the anti-Vista talk. I think it is time to move on. Vista had its problems when released. Vista was fixed with SP2. Vista was developed further upon and further refined to become Windows 7. Big deal.

    For the record...I am not defending Microsoft (MSFT) nor am I attacking Apple (AAPL). I am just criticizing the author of the article and those who read it and did not ask these same questions.

    How would you like to read a review of the new iPhone that I wrote? Well, no I don't have it, but I have gathered info that others have said and assumed the rest of the information and typed it up...see my point?

    Not to quibble, but I would say that Vista was NOT fixed with SP2. And even if it was, what a painful fix! I have an HP 4400 series workstation running vista ultimate. It took me literally 3 days just to get the machine stable enough to work with. Just installing service pack one, then service pack two (because SP2 requires SP1 first) took the better part of a work day. Why should installing a service pack take 2 or 3 HOURS? It is absurd.

    I went through so much nonsense getting the box where I needed it to be just to be functional...

    1) Install Vista.

    2) Install Visual Studio Team Suite. Crashes when connecting to TFS. Try to uninstall and reinstall. Can't uninstall, uninstaller crashes. Try to repair. Can't, installer crashes.

    3) Useless web searches trying to get a solution. Notice also that sound won't work.

    4) Download and install sound driver; sound works.

    5) Install Visual Studio Enterprise hoping some DLL's get overwritten. VS finally works.

    6) Code, code, code. Check in. Can't check in; VS2008 bug.

    7) Search web for solutions. Can't resolve DNS for sites in a spotty fashion - mystifying; every other machine works (Mac, XP boxes).

    8) Uninstall and re-install .net. Check in. Old error gone, now get a new error.

    9) Install .net service pack - about 2 hours.

    10) Install VS2008 service pack - 3 to 4 hours.

    11) Check in works! YAY! Still throwing policy errors but who cares, I can finally work.

    12) Still can't resolve certain web sites. Can't hit HTTPS URL's. Every other machine in the house works fine.

    13) Install SP1 - 3 hours.

    14) Install SP2 - who knows - hours.

    15) Sound broken again - thank you SP2.

    16) Re-install sound drivers; sound works again.

    17) Still can't hit some web sites that every other box in the house can.

    18) Adjust gamma for secondary display AGAIN (for the upteenth time) because Vista keeps resetting it on EVERY RESTART.

    --- And the saga continues. ---

    Look, I use Macs and PC's. I develop for both. I can only speak from my own experience, but that experience is considerable, and this is what I have to say: it completely mystifies me how MS can sell this crap. Honestly, some of this stuff is just pure unadulterated excrement. I spend more time fighting my PC to get it to work than I do actually working, sometimes, and that is just ridiculous that it should be that way. It should NOT be so. My workstations and development tools are supposed to help me be productive, not vex me into the grave early. Anyone who thinks this state of affairs is acceptable or good is just blinded by some misplaced allegiance.
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