Here's my problem with Greenpeace and attacking techonlogy, they wouldn't stop until we all go back to living in caves, wearing animal skins, and foraging for food!
So that no matter what Apple does in terms of the environment and their products, Greenpeace will be Apple bashing as long as Apple has a high public profile.
Now I must be off in my inflatable boat to terrorize humankind!
just like those crazy techno-muslimo-terrorists?
Just because the media constantly reitterates the 'fact' that 'they' want to destroy 'our' way of life doesn't mean it's true.
And i'd rather live in a cave and know i've done all i can to ensure the survival of this planet, teh human race and every other species on this planet, because that is what is potentially at risk.
As taken from greenmyapple.com
"We love Apple. Apple knows more about "clean" design than anybody, right? So why do Macs, iPods, iBooks and the rest of their product range contain hazardous substances that other companies have agreed to abandon? A cutting edge company shouldn't be cutting lives short by exposing children in China and India to dangerous chemicals. That's why we Apple fans need to demand a new, cool product: a greener Apple."
I once sent a donation to Greenpeace --- and they sent me back a thank you along with a busload of printed junk (along with stickers, etc.) that I didn't want or need. Talk about environmental impact! I guess it makes a difference if you're the one in the catbird seat.
Thank goodness I just changed the motor oil in my car today. As a tribute to GreenPeace, I will pour this oil in the little creek that runs behind my house.
Everytime GreenPeace does some unsubstantial Stunt against Apple, I will do some Substantial harm to the environment.
Ban me for heresy, I don't care, the motor oil will still be in the water!
Single stupidest comment in AppleInsider Forum history.
This is about public education with some grandstanding as spice. So what. Every non-profit and private corporation does the same thing if it needs to. Greenpeace isn't hurting you or affecting Mac sales and you are up in arms about what might happen. Get over your self-aggrandizing, faux iconoclastic annoyance and say something useful ... no, DO something useful.
Maybe wait for the politically correct pendulum to swing back so you can feel cool railing against someone else trying to make the planet better. Your annoyance is less important than the centuries of ecological capital disregarded and destroyed by ignorant and felonious business practices. Your anger is a waste of whining emotion best saved for something more serious, like when BurgerKing ran out of the Mulan action figure you wanted. And Apple's short term business practices are less important as well.
Whether you think Greenpeace is a bunch of lunatics is irrelevant. Some of them are most of them are not. However they are protesting real problems while you are protesting image!
As a very loyal customer and stockholder, I expect groups like Greenpeace to research and publicize any problems with the company I keep and I can treat the information and "grandstanding" with a mature respect for its role.
Complainers like several of you should stick to issues you understand or have had the time to research first - like your favorite color iPhone.
And i'd rather live in a cave and know i've done all i can to ensure the survival of this planet, teh human race and every other species on this planet, because that is what is potentially at risk.
Oh, please do, and please post a few photos of your new "digs!"
Why are you people so adverse to what green peace is trying to achieve? Yeah, we may have our sexy macs now, but give it 50 years and it'll be a different world and we need to do something now, either way, what harm does being more environmentally responsible do, none, but it inevitably cleans up the environment, which benefits every single one of us.
But focusing on one company doesn't really help the issue. It's like saying if we all focus our efforts on making Ford more fuel-efficient, GM will also become fuel-efficient. But that's not how it always works in the real world.
What about all those other companies that make plastic products? Apple doesn't make nearly the amount of plastic casings a Dell or HP
Why are you people so adverse to what green peace is trying to achieve?
Well, Lou, look at it like this.
I don't believe in prejudice. I want to make a statement supporting equality for everyone. I don't know what your beliefs are, but I'm going to organize a demonstration outside your place of business and your home demanding that you quit being a bigot. There'll be blackface, ragheads, beaners and TV cameras.
Hope you don't mind. You're probably a good guy, but this will make great TV.
Why are you people so adverse to what green peace is trying to achieve? Yeah, we may have our sexy macs now, but give it 50 years and it'll be a different world and we need to do something now, either way, what harm does being more environmentally responsible do, none, but it inevitably cleans up the environment, which benefits every single one of us.
I can just see all you guys saying you'd 'beat up greenpeace', probably either frail geeks who don't leave the house or fat, rich out of touch business people, wake up to what's around you, the world isn't your own private sanctuary.
Greenpeace, you are true heros, much more than those who do fu*k all from their armchairs/computer desks.
My Problem with Greenpeace is that they contradict their own arguments, by saying one thing but prove another.
Greenpeace is an evil organization, primarily concerned with meeting its own multi-billion dollar budget. The best way to keep donations coming in is to do stuff like this - because actually helping the environment is way lower priority that getting donations.
ya know if it shuts greenpeace up then i dont see why not. there not going to stop. could be worse though. they could be eco-terrorists. Bombing apple until they make their products greener.
heres a fun game everyone. find the most toxic Apple product ever to be released. Dont ask me for the answer though cause i dont know it!
I don't believe in prejudice. I want to make a statement supporting equality for everyone. I don't know what your beliefs are, but I'm going to organize a demonstration outside your place of business and your home demanding that you quit being a bigot. There'll be blackface, ragheads, beaners and TV cameras.
Hope you don't mind. You're probably a good guy, but this will make great TV.
That's pretty close. Work this in there somewhere:
You forgot to mention that you'd asked a Private Investigator to study Lou and his friends. The PI reported back to you that Lou's friend, Mort, had been telling racist jokes at work and while out playing poker with the rest of the guys, including Lou. While Lou had laughed at the jokes - hard to avoid, considering the crowd - he, in fact, had recently received an award from a government anti-racism committee for his work in reducing bigotry in the school that he worked.
So, despite clear evidence that Mort is an bigot, you order the cameras to show up at Lou's house. Mort isn't as popular as Lou - he's not photogenic, dresses badly, and isn't exactly eloquent. Besides, each time you get one of your placards on TV, you garner a few thousand dollars more in donations. Truth be damned, it's all about the visuals!
Why are you people so adverse to what green peace is trying to achieve? Yeah, we may have our sexy macs now, but give it 50 years and it'll be a different world and we need to do something now, either way, what harm does being more environmentally responsible do, none, but it inevitably cleans up the environment, which benefits every single one of us.
I can just see all you guys saying you'd 'beat up greenpeace', probably either frail geeks who don't leave the house or fat, rich out of touch business people, wake up to what's around you, the world isn't your own private sanctuary.
??? What the hell ... okay dude please point out to me with actual sources and facts how Greenpeace has done anything to promote environmental responsibility. Saying, "well, we want Apple to use environmentally friendly manufacturing and packaging processes" is NOT a solution to anything. Spiking trees was not an answer to logging and killing whalers was not an answer to whaling. It's little more than an eco-terrorist group. While I admit shining green flashlights into a glass box to promote environmental awareness isn't damaging or terroristic, what DOES it do exactly? Greenpeace needs to offer up some solution to expect Apple to give them any mind.
Apple is a business. They're out to make money. Same as the fucking oil companies. They are concerned about getting a good product out the door as cheaply as possible with as few prohibitive fees in the way as possible. Do you think Apple is going to like sinking tons of money into more environmental awareness when it already has one of the best eco-friendly track records in the business?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lou
Greenpeace, you are true heros, much more than those who do fu*k all from their armchairs/computer desks.
<Tears> Heroes? That might be stretching it a bit ... but I guess they are compared to the folks that discover medicines, decode the human genome and promote freedom of the press and speech through rogue blogs under tyrannical governments - all of whom indeed do fuck all in front of their computers...
Try reading Crichton's "State of Fear" ... while controversial, it's extremely well researched and worth reading whether or not you support the radical environmental movement...
Here's my problem with Greenpeace and attacking techonlogy, they wouldn't stop until we all go back to living in caves, wearing animal skins, and foraging for food!
You really need to stop watching FOX News. Your sense of hyperbole and desire to add to the sudden anti-[insert eco group] feeding frenzy shows me how easy it is for Karl Rove to win elections. sad ...
If I'm wrong, show me one example of Greenpeace wanting to take away your home, clothes or food.
Greenpeace is an evil organization, primarily concerned with meeting its own multi-billion dollar budget. The best way to keep donations coming in is to do stuff like this - because actually helping the environment is way lower priority that getting donations.
It would be cool if all of the MWSF patrons run down there and beat the hell out of them...I just wanna see those twirps hospitalized...imagine...take a medication that was tested on animals or die...lets see how many of these cowards stick to their guns when rubber "meats" the road...
Hmmmm...objection to animal testing would make a great plot for House now that I think about it...
WAIT...was this the SF store? or the NY sstore? the original post said SF but all of the cube referancesmake me think NY...am I confused here?
Here's my problem with Greenpeace and attacking techonlogy, they wouldn't stop until we all go back to living in caves, wearing animal skins, and foraging for food!
Then you'll have PETA on your ass!
Seriously, I do my part for the environment (and I'm against animal cruelty) but groups like this make environmentalism a dirty word. They're not helping. They're just making it difficult for those of us normal people who do what we can. I like the picture of the girl with the lone strawberry iMac keyboard amongst a sea of millions of PC computer parts. I guess it's okay unless you're Apple, huh?
??? What the hell ... okay dude please point out to me with actual sources and facts how Greenpeace has done anything to promote environmental responsibility.
No, dude, it is up to you to point out actual sources and facts for how Greenpeace has somehow hurt you. But if you can't Google anything, you might want to ask people about whaling protests in which they put THEIR OWN LIVES - not the lives of whalers - on the line.
Quote:
Saying, "well, we want Apple to use environmentally friendly manufacturing and packaging processes" is NOT a solution to anything.
Well it is a start. And it is not up to Greenpeace to research every manufacturing process know to humanity and do the work that companies should be doing anyway. Their role is to highlight the problems and where they can, give solutions. You might want to actually go to their website before wasting discussion space on your repressed, self-important rant.
Quote:
Spiking trees was not an answer to logging and killing whalers was not an answer to whaling. It's little more than an eco-terrorist group.
Where is YOUR proof, nimrod? I'm from Oregon and Greenpeace doesn't spike logs. Other fringe groups used to. Read some George Orwell or Thoreau if you don't understand the reasonings and exigencies of the powerless in the face of the powerful. Nonviolent, civil disobedience at times is not only ethical, it is necessary. (see Gandhi)
As for killing whalers .... ... read up on the Rainbow Warrior.
Quote:
While I admit shining green flashlights into a glass box to promote environmental awareness isn't damaging or terroristic, what DOES it do exactly?
Usually it gets people to talk about it in a public way ... except for people like you who can't stand being reminded of bad things in the world, or who feel they are personally being blamed for problems, or who feel eco-groups are just being arrogant ... while you, yourself express the exact same arrogance. Maybe if you spent 2% of the time you spend ragging on GP, ragging on GE ruining the Hudson River instead, then maybe YOU might be doing something useful.
Quote:
Greenpeace needs to offer up some solution to expect Apple to give them any mind.
And how do you know they haven't?!?!? Because you read AI forums or listen to talk radio? Again a few minutes of research would answer most of your questions if you truly were interested in answers rather than venting your stupidity.
Quote:
Apple is a business. They're out to make money. Same as the fucking oil companies. They are concerned about getting a good product out the door as cheaply as possible with as few prohibitive fees in the way as possible. Do you think Apple is going to like sinking tons of money into more environmental awareness when it already has one of the best eco-friendly track records in the business?
Being a business is not a virtue. It is only an economic construct. Making money is what they need to do to survive, but they have responsibilities too. And I doubt Apple is even being asked to sink tons of money into anything.
Quote:
Try reading Crichton's "State of Fear" ... while controversial, it's extremely well researched and worth reading whether or not you support the radical environmental movement...
I also hear he wrote a book that has exposed an underlying plot by geneticists to create a park of dinosaurs that will eventually over-run small Central American countries and kill a lawyer or two. It is very well researched and worth reading whether or not you support the radical paleontological movement.
The problem with people now is that they are so afraid of terrorists and so angry with "liberals" that they don't have an idea about what a truly radical movement is.
Spiking trees was not an answer to logging and killing whalers was not an answer to whaling. It's little more than an eco-terrorist group.
So Greenpeace is out spiking trees and killing whalers, huh? I think you need to get your facts straight. You are probably confusing them with Earth First or another true "eco-terrorist" organization. The truth is that Greenpeace members have been killed in protests.
From their website..."Greenpeace is an independent, campaigning organisation which uses non-violent, creative confrontation to expose global environmental problems, and to force solutions for a green and peaceful future."
Non-violent confrontation is the kind of peaceful resolution that people like Martin Luther King, Jr. and Mahatma Gandhi believed in. Gandhi appeared in Apple's Think Different campaign posters. You can relate to that, right? The Apple Fanboy stuff only goes so far people.
My major gripe with environmental organizations is that they end up using a huge amount of funds for lobbyists in Washington. That's right, lawyers get most of the money.
Comments
Here's my problem with Greenpeace and attacking techonlogy, they wouldn't stop until we all go back to living in caves, wearing animal skins, and foraging for food!
So that no matter what Apple does in terms of the environment and their products, Greenpeace will be Apple bashing as long as Apple has a high public profile.
Now I must be off in my inflatable boat to terrorize humankind!
just like those crazy techno-muslimo-terrorists?
Just because the media constantly reitterates the 'fact' that 'they' want to destroy 'our' way of life doesn't mean it's true.
And i'd rather live in a cave and know i've done all i can to ensure the survival of this planet, teh human race and every other species on this planet, because that is what is potentially at risk.
As taken from greenmyapple.com
"We love Apple. Apple knows more about "clean" design than anybody, right? So why do Macs, iPods, iBooks and the rest of their product range contain hazardous substances that other companies have agreed to abandon? A cutting edge company shouldn't be cutting lives short by exposing children in China and India to dangerous chemicals. That's why we Apple fans need to demand a new, cool product: a greener Apple."
Thank goodness I just changed the motor oil in my car today. As a tribute to GreenPeace, I will pour this oil in the little creek that runs behind my house.
Everytime GreenPeace does some unsubstantial Stunt against Apple, I will do some Substantial harm to the environment.
Ban me for heresy, I don't care, the motor oil will still be in the water!
Single stupidest comment in AppleInsider Forum history.
This is about public education with some grandstanding as spice. So what. Every non-profit and private corporation does the same thing if it needs to. Greenpeace isn't hurting you or affecting Mac sales and you are up in arms about what might happen. Get over your self-aggrandizing, faux iconoclastic annoyance and say something useful ... no, DO something useful.
Maybe wait for the politically correct pendulum to swing back so you can feel cool railing against someone else trying to make the planet better. Your annoyance is less important than the centuries of ecological capital disregarded and destroyed by ignorant and felonious business practices. Your anger is a waste of whining emotion best saved for something more serious, like when BurgerKing ran out of the Mulan action figure you wanted. And Apple's short term business practices are less important as well.
Whether you think Greenpeace is a bunch of lunatics is irrelevant. Some of them are most of them are not. However they are protesting real problems while you are protesting image!
As a very loyal customer and stockholder, I expect groups like Greenpeace to research and publicize any problems with the company I keep and I can treat the information and "grandstanding" with a mature respect for its role.
Complainers like several of you should stick to issues you understand or have had the time to research first - like your favorite color iPhone.
And i'd rather live in a cave and know i've done all i can to ensure the survival of this planet, teh human race and every other species on this planet, because that is what is potentially at risk.
Oh, please do, and please post a few photos of your new "digs!"
Why are you people so adverse to what green peace is trying to achieve? Yeah, we may have our sexy macs now, but give it 50 years and it'll be a different world and we need to do something now, either way, what harm does being more environmentally responsible do, none, but it inevitably cleans up the environment, which benefits every single one of us.
But focusing on one company doesn't really help the issue. It's like saying if we all focus our efforts on making Ford more fuel-efficient, GM will also become fuel-efficient. But that's not how it always works in the real world.
What about all those other companies that make plastic products? Apple doesn't make nearly the amount of plastic casings a Dell or HP
every time i check, there are so many more posts!
i guess that's good, lots of controversy
Why are you people so adverse to what green peace is trying to achieve?
Well, Lou, look at it like this.
I don't believe in prejudice. I want to make a statement supporting equality for everyone. I don't know what your beliefs are, but I'm going to organize a demonstration outside your place of business and your home demanding that you quit being a bigot. There'll be blackface, ragheads, beaners and TV cameras.
Hope you don't mind. You're probably a good guy, but this will make great TV.
Why are you people so adverse to what green peace is trying to achieve? Yeah, we may have our sexy macs now, but give it 50 years and it'll be a different world and we need to do something now, either way, what harm does being more environmentally responsible do, none, but it inevitably cleans up the environment, which benefits every single one of us.
I can just see all you guys saying you'd 'beat up greenpeace', probably either frail geeks who don't leave the house or fat, rich out of touch business people, wake up to what's around you, the world isn't your own private sanctuary.
Greenpeace, you are true heros, much more than those who do fu*k all from their armchairs/computer desks.
My Problem with Greenpeace is that they contradict their own arguments, by saying one thing but prove another.
Try reading this.
Sebastian
heres a fun game everyone. find the most toxic Apple product ever to be released. Dont ask me for the answer though cause i dont know it!
Well, Lou, look at it like this.
I don't believe in prejudice. I want to make a statement supporting equality for everyone. I don't know what your beliefs are, but I'm going to organize a demonstration outside your place of business and your home demanding that you quit being a bigot. There'll be blackface, ragheads, beaners and TV cameras.
Hope you don't mind. You're probably a good guy, but this will make great TV.
That's pretty close. Work this in there somewhere:
You forgot to mention that you'd asked a Private Investigator to study Lou and his friends. The PI reported back to you that Lou's friend, Mort, had been telling racist jokes at work and while out playing poker with the rest of the guys, including Lou. While Lou had laughed at the jokes - hard to avoid, considering the crowd - he, in fact, had recently received an award from a government anti-racism committee for his work in reducing bigotry in the school that he worked.
So, despite clear evidence that Mort is an bigot, you order the cameras to show up at Lou's house. Mort isn't as popular as Lou - he's not photogenic, dresses badly, and isn't exactly eloquent. Besides, each time you get one of your placards on TV, you garner a few thousand dollars more in donations. Truth be damned, it's all about the visuals!
Why are you people so adverse to what green peace is trying to achieve? Yeah, we may have our sexy macs now, but give it 50 years and it'll be a different world and we need to do something now, either way, what harm does being more environmentally responsible do, none, but it inevitably cleans up the environment, which benefits every single one of us.
I can just see all you guys saying you'd 'beat up greenpeace', probably either frail geeks who don't leave the house or fat, rich out of touch business people, wake up to what's around you, the world isn't your own private sanctuary.
??? What the hell ... okay dude please point out to me with actual sources and facts how Greenpeace has done anything to promote environmental responsibility. Saying, "well, we want Apple to use environmentally friendly manufacturing and packaging processes" is NOT a solution to anything. Spiking trees was not an answer to logging and killing whalers was not an answer to whaling. It's little more than an eco-terrorist group. While I admit shining green flashlights into a glass box to promote environmental awareness isn't damaging or terroristic, what DOES it do exactly? Greenpeace needs to offer up some solution to expect Apple to give them any mind.
Apple is a business. They're out to make money. Same as the fucking oil companies. They are concerned about getting a good product out the door as cheaply as possible with as few prohibitive fees in the way as possible. Do you think Apple is going to like sinking tons of money into more environmental awareness when it already has one of the best eco-friendly track records in the business?
Greenpeace, you are true heros, much more than those who do fu*k all from their armchairs/computer desks.
Try reading Crichton's "State of Fear" ... while controversial, it's extremely well researched and worth reading whether or not you support the radical environmental movement...
Here's my problem with Greenpeace and attacking techonlogy, they wouldn't stop until we all go back to living in caves, wearing animal skins, and foraging for food!
You really need to stop watching FOX News. Your sense of hyperbole and desire to add to the sudden anti-[insert eco group] feeding frenzy shows me how easy it is for Karl Rove to win elections.
If I'm wrong, show me one example of Greenpeace wanting to take away your home, clothes or food.
Greenpeace is an evil organization, primarily concerned with meeting its own multi-billion dollar budget. The best way to keep donations coming in is to do stuff like this - because actually helping the environment is way lower priority that getting donations.
This is the crux of the whole thing. Daniel Eran has pretty much debunked Greenpeace here: http://www.roughlydrafted.com/RD/RDM...57E98CA39.html
One can only conclude that they are keeping the heat up because it's self-serving, not because it's at about finding the truth.
poor little girl holding pink apple keybord to show apple logo, standn infront of a pile of..........
NO! that couldent be!! a pile pf bege pc keybords!!???
Huh? How is flashing green flashlights into a transparent cube going to help the environment? Somebody tell me.
It's just a waste of batteries. Yes, that's one way to help the environment!?!
Hmmmm...objection to animal testing would make a great plot for House now that I think about it...
WAIT...was this the SF store? or the NY sstore? the original post said SF but all of the cube referancesmake me think NY...am I confused here?
Here's my problem with Greenpeace and attacking techonlogy, they wouldn't stop until we all go back to living in caves, wearing animal skins, and foraging for food!
Then you'll have PETA on your ass!
Seriously, I do my part for the environment (and I'm against animal cruelty) but groups like this make environmentalism a dirty word. They're not helping. They're just making it difficult for those of us normal people who do what we can. I like the picture of the girl with the lone strawberry iMac keyboard amongst a sea of millions of PC computer parts. I guess it's okay unless you're Apple, huh?
??? What the hell ... okay dude please point out to me with actual sources and facts how Greenpeace has done anything to promote environmental responsibility.
No, dude, it is up to you to point out actual sources and facts for how Greenpeace has somehow hurt you. But if you can't Google anything, you might want to ask people about whaling protests in which they put THEIR OWN LIVES - not the lives of whalers - on the line.
Saying, "well, we want Apple to use environmentally friendly manufacturing and packaging processes" is NOT a solution to anything.
Well it is a start. And it is not up to Greenpeace to research every manufacturing process know to humanity and do the work that companies should be doing anyway. Their role is to highlight the problems and where they can, give solutions. You might want to actually go to their website before wasting discussion space on your repressed, self-important rant.
Spiking trees was not an answer to logging and killing whalers was not an answer to whaling. It's little more than an eco-terrorist group.
Where is YOUR proof, nimrod? I'm from Oregon and Greenpeace doesn't spike logs. Other fringe groups used to. Read some George Orwell or Thoreau if you don't understand the reasonings and exigencies of the powerless in the face of the powerful. Nonviolent, civil disobedience at times is not only ethical, it is necessary. (see Gandhi)
As for killing whalers ....
While I admit shining green flashlights into a glass box to promote environmental awareness isn't damaging or terroristic, what DOES it do exactly?
Usually it gets people to talk about it in a public way ... except for people like you who can't stand being reminded of bad things in the world, or who feel they are personally being blamed for problems, or who feel eco-groups are just being arrogant ... while you, yourself express the exact same arrogance. Maybe if you spent 2% of the time you spend ragging on GP, ragging on GE ruining the Hudson River instead, then maybe YOU might be doing something useful.
Greenpeace needs to offer up some solution to expect Apple to give them any mind.
And how do you know they haven't?!?!? Because you read AI forums or listen to talk radio? Again a few minutes of research would answer most of your questions if you truly were interested in answers rather than venting your stupidity.
Apple is a business. They're out to make money. Same as the fucking oil companies. They are concerned about getting a good product out the door as cheaply as possible with as few prohibitive fees in the way as possible. Do you think Apple is going to like sinking tons of money into more environmental awareness when it already has one of the best eco-friendly track records in the business?
Being a business is not a virtue. It is only an economic construct. Making money is what they need to do to survive, but they have responsibilities too. And I doubt Apple is even being asked to sink tons of money into anything.
Try reading Crichton's "State of Fear" ... while controversial, it's extremely well researched and worth reading whether or not you support the radical environmental movement...
I also hear he wrote a book that has exposed an underlying plot by geneticists to create a park of dinosaurs that will eventually over-run small Central American countries and kill a lawyer or two. It is very well researched and worth reading whether or not you support the radical paleontological movement.
The problem with people now is that they are so afraid of terrorists and so angry with "liberals" that they don't have an idea about what a truly radical movement is.
Spiking trees was not an answer to logging and killing whalers was not an answer to whaling. It's little more than an eco-terrorist group.
So Greenpeace is out spiking trees and killing whalers, huh? I think you need to get your facts straight. You are probably confusing them with Earth First or another true "eco-terrorist" organization. The truth is that Greenpeace members have been killed in protests.
From their website..."Greenpeace is an independent, campaigning organisation which uses non-violent, creative confrontation to expose global environmental problems, and to force solutions for a green and peaceful future."
Non-violent confrontation is the kind of peaceful resolution that people like Martin Luther King, Jr. and Mahatma Gandhi believed in. Gandhi appeared in Apple's Think Different campaign posters. You can relate to that, right? The Apple Fanboy stuff only goes so far people.
My major gripe with environmental organizations is that they end up using a huge amount of funds for lobbyists in Washington. That's right, lawyers get most of the money.
James