What Greenpeace is doing is an effective tool for good.
Then ends never justify the means. If the means do not justify themselves then they are wrong.
Bullying someone into submission is never effective, and makes for bad precedent and policy.
There is an old saying:
"A man convinced against his will
Is of the same opinion still."
Quote:
Originally Posted by BenJ
Oh God - Can't you guys see what GP is doing??? I'm all for Apple but it's not just about Apple- it's about raising awareness that something needs to be done. You're all talking from comfy homes with central heating and everything you need. Try living in slums with old computer components surrounding you dumped there.
In my opinion, Greenpeace is free to solve their problems anyway they see fit so long as they do not create a problem for another person on the planet.
Right now I feel they are creating problems for Apple, and not in any way that is justifiable. And yes, I know what slums in the third-world can be like. I lived in and around them for many months.
Quote:
Originally Posted by BenJ
In America you've got the first Amendment- what's you're problem with people voicing it?
In America we also have slander and libel laws, product disparagement laws, defamation laws, and harassment laws. The right to free speech is not without its bounds; those that use it irresponsibly or recklessly can (and usually should) be held accountable for doing so.
They could ban together and protest the environmental disaster that is the Iraq War.
If the environment is their concern then it stands to reason they would be working with ecologists and various scientists across many fields to work on international standards which make for a greater immediate reduction in greenhouse emissions and other toxins that is eroding the globe.
What's stopping them from supporting Hemp and using it to replace Paper/Pulp and the Cotton industry--two industries that heavily pollute the environment, not to mention Cotton being the industry that strips the top soil.
Hemp enriches the soil and being that it has superior properties in many industries it would have a greater impact on traditional industries rather than wasting tons of money on public protests against high profile companies that they want to be the poster child of the environment.
Look, if you're Greenpeace, it is perfectly rational to do what you do because everybody pays attention -- just see the number (and vehemence) of posts relative to the amount of time thread has been open!
Same phenomenon as how people do weird things -- remember that pervert they picked up from Thailand a few months ago and flew back to the US on business class, who ended up on (disgusting) Larry King -- to get noticed on TV.
Ignore such idiots and they go away.
True, I'm still reading through this Thread but I'm preparing to upload a couple of Pictures. And Yes they attracted quite a bit of attention
2 More will be added, just as soon as I have them ready. Unfortunately the quality is kind of crappy since it was taken with my phone, but these are the only 2 good ones, the other 2 will be the Flyer.
There were basically 2 guys with really smug looks on their face squatting on either side of the Projector staring up at the Green Outline of the Logo (that they provided of course) while some others were handing out flyers.
Look, if you're Greenpeace, it is perfectly rational to do what you do because everybody pays attention -- just see the number (and vehemence) of posts relative to the amount of time thread has been open!
For the most part GP crazy stunts overwhelm the cause they champion.
I told my friend about this article because he lives right near the Apple store and he went and took a bunch of pictures for me. You can find them here in their full 8 megapixel glory on his flickr account:
when will these poor bastards realize that no one is paying any attention to them?!
The sad thing is, people were paying attention. I grabbed a Flyer when one of the Activists was deep in a disucssion with a couple of other people about Greening Apple.
I was kind of expecting to walk on scene and find a bunch of people in Green Shirts singing the Circle of Life...
What if they decided to target you or your company? How would you feel then? It's not cool.
They are erratic extremists that need to be stopped.
I'd feel sad.
Much as I hate to make corporations and their supporters feel sad, these problems are real--and if you think that's an erratic, extreme position, then some research is in order I sense some anti-environmental emotion in this thread that is not based on reason.
As for "the ends don't justify the means"... what exactly is the harm that needs to be justified? Annoyance? Hurt feelings? It's like saying you shouldn't put up posters about drunk driving because bar owners will be annoyed, and the ends don't justify the means.
We're talking about significant changes for the better, paid for by no real harm at all.
Quote:
Originally Posted by rg_spb
when will these poor bastards realize that no one is paying any attention to them?!
As the article noted, people ARE paying attention. Evidence includes the huge Web traffic and the media coverage.
And that attention turns to real change, thankfully. Apple and others have started new programs and improved existing practices. Would they do all that on their own? It's too important to leave it to corporations to do the right thing on their own.
Years ago, back in the 1980's, I was a big Greenpeace fan and supporter.
But Greenpeace has changed.. it build itself lavish headquarters in Paris and is clearly choosing its attacks. Choosing, not for importance or relevance, but only to obtain the maximum of visibility and therefore more money in their pockets.. in other words, Greenpeace has become just another company that makes money.
Of course Apple should do better, like almost all americans / american companies they rather ignore ecology...
Citizens should apply the pressure to companies they find breaking the law or polluting excessively. I'm sure plenty of GP'ers would like for consumers to not consume anything at all, but there we are. Picking on Apple might get them attention, but they're barking up the wrong tree.
Bingo. The real fcking problem is Dell, HP, Acer, Lenovo, and tons of the beige box companies!!!! "Apple is an Innovator"... YES,, but........... Is everyone porting to OSX? NO. Is Apple's market share above 5%? No. Is Apple big in the Asian countries where all the waste is accumulating? NO. W.T.F. mate....!!!!!!!!!!
I just don't know what's right or wrong anymore. I am very surprised that Greening Apple has got so much attention. Still, consider the amount of hits to the Dell websites globally compared to Apple. \ Whatevs, I'm going back to my Countdown Thread ( http://forums.appleinsider.com/showt...=69443&page=14 )
I worked for Greenpeace Australia Pacific in 2003-2004, for one year. It was definitely an interesting and soul-challenging experience. How is right? What is wrong? Why is this? What is eco-that? Who is cutting edge? Who is cutting trees? How will humans survive? Why have we damaged the planet? Too many questions. Not enough clear answers. 6 billion people.
I am not making sense anymore. Bloody MacWorld madness.
As for "the ends don't justify the means"... what exactly is the harm that needs to be justified? Annoyance? Hurt feelings? It's like saying you shouldn't put up posters about drunk driving because bar owners will be annoyed, and the ends don't justify the means.
I'm sure Apple does have plans to make environmental changes in the future as do all companies. I seriously doubt those changes will have been made because of what Green Peace is doing.
Quote:
And that attention turns to real change, thankfully. Apple and others have started new programs and improved existing practices. Would they do all that on their own? It's too important to leave it to corporations to do the right thing on their own.
Government regulatory organizations such as the Environmental Protection Agency are the power that force companies to change. Green Peace has no where near the same power or influence.
Would they do all that on their own? It's too important to leave it to corporations to do the right thing on their own.
Greenpeace is a terrorist organization. They carry no respect with the public and never will. The only sad thing would be if Apple were ever to give in to their terrorist threats and demands. No one should ever give into terrorist tacticts. Corporate or otherwise.
You really need to stop watching FOX News. Your sense of hyperbole and desire to add to the sudden anti-[insert eco group] feeding frenzy shows me how easy it is for Karl Rove to win elections. sad ...
If I'm wrong, show me one example of Greenpeace wanting to take away your home, clothes or food.
It's called sardonic wit! It's also basically the slippery slope argument, some people will never be satisfied, some people will always be on the loopy left (or right as the case may be) wanting to push the issue further. If society up and decided tomorrow to do all that Greenpeace asked, they'd still be there wanting more from the corporation de jour. Get it!
Comments
(Would have re-posted the picture, but I am not quite sure how to cut-and-paste images into posts.....
What Greenpeace is doing is an effective tool for good.
Then ends never justify the means. If the means do not justify themselves then they are wrong.
Bullying someone into submission is never effective, and makes for bad precedent and policy.
There is an old saying:
"A man convinced against his will
Is of the same opinion still."
Oh God - Can't you guys see what GP is doing??? I'm all for Apple but it's not just about Apple- it's about raising awareness that something needs to be done. You're all talking from comfy homes with central heating and everything you need. Try living in slums with old computer components surrounding you dumped there.
In my opinion, Greenpeace is free to solve their problems anyway they see fit so long as they do not create a problem for another person on the planet.
Right now I feel they are creating problems for Apple, and not in any way that is justifiable. And yes, I know what slums in the third-world can be like. I lived in and around them for many months.
In America you've got the first Amendment- what's you're problem with people voicing it?
In America we also have slander and libel laws, product disparagement laws, defamation laws, and harassment laws. The right to free speech is not without its bounds; those that use it irresponsibly or recklessly can (and usually should) be held accountable for doing so.
If the environment is their concern then it stands to reason they would be working with ecologists and various scientists across many fields to work on international standards which make for a greater immediate reduction in greenhouse emissions and other toxins that is eroding the globe.
What's stopping them from supporting Hemp and using it to replace Paper/Pulp and the Cotton industry--two industries that heavily pollute the environment, not to mention Cotton being the industry that strips the top soil.
Hemp enriches the soil and being that it has superior properties in many industries it would have a greater impact on traditional industries rather than wasting tons of money on public protests against high profile companies that they want to be the poster child of the environment.
Look, if you're Greenpeace, it is perfectly rational to do what you do because everybody pays attention -- just see the number (and vehemence) of posts relative to the amount of time thread has been open!
Same phenomenon as how people do weird things -- remember that pervert they picked up from Thailand a few months ago and flew back to the US on business class, who ended up on (disgusting) Larry King -- to get noticed on TV.
Ignore such idiots and they go away.
True, I'm still reading through this Thread but I'm preparing to upload a couple of Pictures. And Yes they attracted quite a bit of attention
Sebastian
2 More will be added, just as soon as I have them ready. Unfortunately the quality is kind of crappy since it was taken with my phone, but these are the only 2 good ones, the other 2 will be the Flyer.
There were basically 2 guys with really smug looks on their face squatting on either side of the Projector staring up at the Green Outline of the Logo (that they provided of course) while some others were handing out flyers.
Sebastian
Look, if you're Greenpeace, it is perfectly rational to do what you do because everybody pays attention -- just see the number (and vehemence) of posts relative to the amount of time thread has been open!
For the most part GP crazy stunts overwhelm the cause they champion.
? Flickr Set: Greenpeace Protests Apple
Some pics:
when will these poor bastards realize that no one is paying any attention to them?!
The sad thing is, people were paying attention. I grabbed a Flyer when one of the Activists was deep in a disucssion with a couple of other people about Greening Apple.
I was kind of expecting to walk on scene and find a bunch of people in Green Shirts singing the Circle of Life...
Sebastian
What if they decided to target you or your company? How would you feel then? It's not cool.
They are erratic extremists that need to be stopped.
I'd feel sad.
Much as I hate to make corporations and their supporters feel sad, these problems are real--and if you think that's an erratic, extreme position, then some research is in order
As for "the ends don't justify the means"... what exactly is the harm that needs to be justified? Annoyance? Hurt feelings? It's like saying you shouldn't put up posters about drunk driving because bar owners will be annoyed, and the ends don't justify the means.
We're talking about significant changes for the better, paid for by no real harm at all.
when will these poor bastards realize that no one is paying any attention to them?!
As the article noted, people ARE paying attention. Evidence includes the huge Web traffic and the media coverage.
And that attention turns to real change, thankfully. Apple and others have started new programs and improved existing practices. Would they do all that on their own? It's too important to leave it to corporations to do the right thing on their own.
But Greenpeace has changed.. it build itself lavish headquarters in Paris and is clearly choosing its attacks. Choosing, not for importance or relevance, but only to obtain the maximum of visibility and therefore more money in their pockets.. in other words, Greenpeace has become just another company that makes money.
Of course Apple should do better, like almost all americans / american companies they rather ignore ecology...
Citizens should apply the pressure to companies they find breaking the law or polluting excessively. I'm sure plenty of GP'ers would like for consumers to not consume anything at all, but there we are. Picking on Apple might get them attention, but they're barking up the wrong tree.
Bingo. The real fcking problem is Dell, HP, Acer, Lenovo, and tons of the beige box companies!!!! "Apple is an Innovator"... YES,, but........... Is everyone porting to OSX? NO. Is Apple's market share above 5%? No. Is Apple big in the Asian countries where all the waste is accumulating? NO. W.T.F. mate....!!!!!!!!!!
Info overload this Macworld. Totally overloaded.
I am not making sense anymore. Bloody MacWorld madness.
Page 2
Sebastian
As for "the ends don't justify the means"... what exactly is the harm that needs to be justified? Annoyance? Hurt feelings? It's like saying you shouldn't put up posters about drunk driving because bar owners will be annoyed, and the ends don't justify the means.
I'm sure Apple does have plans to make environmental changes in the future as do all companies. I seriously doubt those changes will have been made because of what Green Peace is doing.
And that attention turns to real change, thankfully. Apple and others have started new programs and improved existing practices. Would they do all that on their own? It's too important to leave it to corporations to do the right thing on their own.
Government regulatory organizations such as the Environmental Protection Agency are the power that force companies to change. Green Peace has no where near the same power or influence.
I'd feel sad.
Would they do all that on their own? It's too important to leave it to corporations to do the right thing on their own.
Greenpeace is a terrorist organization. They carry no respect with the public and never will. The only sad thing would be if Apple were ever to give in to their terrorist threats and demands. No one should ever give into terrorist tacticts. Corporate or otherwise.
You really need to stop watching FOX News. Your sense of hyperbole and desire to add to the sudden anti-[insert eco group] feeding frenzy shows me how easy it is for Karl Rove to win elections.
If I'm wrong, show me one example of Greenpeace wanting to take away your home, clothes or food.
It's called sardonic wit! It's also basically the slippery slope argument, some people will never be satisfied, some people will always be on the loopy left (or right as the case may be) wanting to push the issue further. If society up and decided tomorrow to do all that Greenpeace asked, they'd still be there wanting more from the corporation de jour. Get it!