Let's look at the price ranges for the current iMac
$999 to $1999
The current price range for single Conroe towers
$799 - > $1699( some at ~$3000)
The $799 model is bare bones low end with no monitor, integrated graphics, 512 MBs ram and 1.8GHz Core 2 Duo. Adding a graphics card ups it ~$120.($799 + $120 =$919). Bump the ram to 1GB add ~$90($919 + $90 = $999).
the $999 imac has the gma 950 and 512mb with a cd-rw
you can get a system with 1gb of ram, DVD+/-RW Drive, a real video card, free Display.
apple should have a low cost keyboard + mouse for the mini as a add on $78 is too high.
the $999 imac has the gma 950 and 512mb with a cd-rw
you can get a system with 1gb of ram, DVD+/-RW Drive, a real video card, free Display.
apple should have a low cost keyboard + mouse for the mini as a add on $78 is too high.
I haven't been able to find a Windows tower with a real video card, 1GB ram and a monitor for $799. Then again, I just go to Intel's website and go to the where to buy section and enter the price range at $669 - $999.
I haven't been able to find a Windows tower with a real video card, 1GB ram and a monitor for $799. Then again, I just go to Intel's website and go to the where to buy section and enter the price range at $669 - $999.
I haven't been able to find a Windows tower with a real video card, 1GB ram and a monitor for $799. Then again, I just go to Intel's website and go to the where to buy section and enter the price range at $669 - $999.
the systems out there at the mini price range come with gma x3000 or gma 3000 video 1gb or more of ram and a dvd-rw drive with a slots for video and other cards.
"Neither the Mac Mini nor the iMac accepts internal upgrades beyond more memory, so to get a system that will accept additional components later, you'll have to spring for a dual-processor Mac Pro, which starts at a steep $2200." \
One thing that the Mac Pro has in its favor for some of these applications (where it's really too much, but no other Mac is enough) is that it is silent. I hadn't realized HOW quiet it is until last week, because I had only used them in rooms with other computers. Using a Mac Pro in a room with no other computer, I was amazed that it has no noticeable fan noise. This is very different from any other tower I'm aware of (except for specialized audio editing computers), and goes a long way towards counteracting the size issue (doesn't do anything about the price, though!).
One thing that the Mac Pro has in its favor for some of these applications (where it's really too much, but no other Mac is enough) is that it is silent. I hadn't realized HOW quiet it is until last week, because I had only used them in rooms with other computers. Using a Mac Pro in a room with no other computer, I was amazed that it has no noticeable fan noise. This is very different from any other tower I'm aware of (except for specialized audio editing computers), and goes a long way towards counteracting the size issue (doesn't do anything about the price, though!).
-dan
Don't see how it counteracts anything. The Mac Pro doesn't fit some of the brackets that people attach to desks to hold towers. People would need to place it on the floor, where it's vulnerable to children, pets, water.
Others want a cube / maxi-mini. They don't want a computer under the desk at all. The Mac Pro would look very conspicuous standing on the desktop.
"Neither the Mac Mini nor the iMac accepts internal upgrades beyond more memory, so to get a system that will accept additional components later, you'll have to spring for a dual-processor Mac Pro, which starts at a steep $2200." \
Keep the pressure going guys. Apple may finally release an "iMac" with upgradeable graphics in addition to RAM. Was not the Cube the last non-Power Mac Macintosh that offered that option?
Don't see how it counteracts anything. The Mac Pro doesn't fit some of the brackets that people attach to desks to hold towers. People would need to place it on the floor, where it's vulnerable to children, pets, water.
Others want a cube / maxi-mini. They don't want a computer under the desk at all. The Mac Pro would look very conspicuous standing on the desktop.
Brackets have nothing to do with it.
When a computer is in a bracket, it is subject to children, pets, and water. Anytime you have enough water in your room that it threatens the computer, you're in trouble anyway.
Most of us with large computers put them under the desk.
To be perfectly honest, at this point, I'd pull the trigger if they offered the MXM solution in the 20". I just need something at this point. Windows is not an option.
I was amazed that it has no noticeable fan noise. This is very different from any other tower I'm aware of (except for specialized audio editing computers), and goes a long way towards counteracting the size issue. . .
Quote:
Originally Posted by synp
Don't see how it counteracts anything. . .
Obviously, the larger size means greater air space inside, so fans can turn slower. Cooling the same power components in a small enclosures requires higher air pressure to deliver the same volume of cooling air, resulting in noisier fans.
Yes, but its dead technology. You're better off buying a Mac Pro and ebaying the extra Xeon if you are inclined toward the single Xeon model that has been suggested.
Vinea
PowerPCs may be dead but they still have a very happy four or five years ahead of them. A g5 will be supported for a long time to come. And the Classic Mac OS is supported on them, not to mention other fun projects.
. . . Some think that auto insert is no big deal, but it is. Every time a program change has to be made, it costs thousands of dollars. Every surface mount resistor, diode, and cap costs money to insert. The assy line is custom made for that particular product. It is then broken down and re assembled into another configuration. . .
You are describing the economics of a modification, but we are discussing a new product. All manufacturing procedures must be set up initially for the first pilot run. There is no added cost here.
Quote:
Just remember that for every slot you add, you have to increase the size of the power supply. The same thing for extra memory, and again, the same for an extra optical slot. . . A couple of extra 2 GB DIMMS can easily add 3 amps to the power draw. . .
So less than 10 Watts for two extra DIMMS and maybe 90 Watts for a second optical drive and PCI card. That would up your 425 Watt supply to 525 Watts. Still a long way from the 980 Watts of a Mac Pro.
Quote:
Now, I know that it sounds like a lot, and it is, but using some knowledge of the power requirements of the components, I estimate that removing everything from that machine to get to yours would still require 600 watts.
I believe you are overlooking the fact that the Xeon and its memory draw higher current than the equivalent desktop CPU and memory. I like my 525 Watts better than your 600 Watt estimate that you got by working down.
The point is, I wouldn't like to see Apple cut out too much on a prosumer Mac tower. It needs at least 2 PCIe cards, in addition to the graphics card. No one will object to having one or two more slots than they actually need, or an extra optical drive bay. The place to skimp would be a low end Mac Mini replacement.
Quote:
It would still add $60 to $80 to the final cost of the machine. . . Again it depends on the cost, and the more you add, the higher the cost.
The cost of 2 RAM socks, one PCIe socket and a cable to an empty optical drive bay is trivial. The bulk of the cost would be going from your 425 Watt supply to a 525 Watt supply. That would likely add less than $40. But even if it were an $80 price increase, I think that is not too much for a prosumer Mac mini tower, provided Apple improves the Mac Mini.
The upper end Mac Mini needs higher performance graphics and CPU, plus a full size desktop drive and optical drive.
[QUOTE=snoopy;1080021]You are describing the economics of a modification, but we are discussing a new product. All manufacturing procedures must be set up initially for the first pilot run. There is no added cost here.
no, these costs all exist from the beginning. It's costs extra for the extra programming time to set the lines uop for extra components, and it costs more to insert them.
You are in denial here.
Quote:
So less than 10 Watts for two extra DIMMS and maybe 90 Watts for a second optical drive and PCI card. That would up your 425 Watt supply to 525 Watts. Still a long way from the 980 Watts of a Mac Pro.
Try 50 to 100 watts for two 2 GB DIMMS.
Quote:
I believe you are overlooking the fact that the Xeon and its memory draw higher current than the equivalent desktop CPU and memory. I like my 525 Watts better than your 600 Watt estimate that you got by working down.
You might like it, but it's too low anyway.
Quote:
The point is, I wouldn't like to see Apple cut out too much on a prosumer Mac tower. It needs at least 2 PCIe cards, in addition to the graphics card. No one will object to having one or two more slots than they actually need, or an extra optical drive bay. The place to skimp would be a low end Mac Mini replacement.
Your first mistake is in calling this a "prosumer" machine. It's not. It's just a lower cost mini tower.
Quote:
The cost of 2 RAM socks, one PCIe socket and a cable to an empty optical drive bay is trivial. The bulk of the cost would be going from your 425 Watt supply to a 525 Watt supply. That would likely add less than $40. But even if it were an $80 price increase, I think that is not too much for a prosumer Mac mini tower, provided Apple improves the Mac Mini.
You're just guessing. Come up with prices on those sockets, and then find out what other components are rrquired, and price them out as well. You'd be surprised at what they cost.
Quote:
The upper end Mac Mini needs higher performance graphics and CPU, plus a full size desktop drive and optical drive.
no, these costs all exist from the beginning. It's costs extra for the extra programming time to set the lines uop for extra components, and it costs more to insert them.
You are in denial here.
Go back and read what you wrote. You said, ". . . Some think that auto insert is no big deal, but it is. Every time a program change has to be made, it costs thousands of dollars. . . The assy line is custom made for that particular product. It is then broken down and re assembled into another configuration. . ."
Here it is clear to me that you are speaking of changing the auto insertion program, which is what happen when a product is modified. However, our discussion is a new product, and insertion programs must be set up in the beginning for all new products -- the ones you describe as well as the ones I describe. I had said in my reply to you, "All manufacturing procedures must be set up initially for the first pilot run. There is no added cost here."
Why is this point confusing? I thought it was clear and simple.
Quote:
Try 50 to 100 watts for two 2 GB DIMMS.
I was using your numbers. "A couple of extra 2 GB DIMMS can easily add 3 amps to the power draw. . ." Did you mean 30 Amperes? Power = Voltage * current. Looks like it's your error.
Quote:
Your first mistake is in calling this a "prosumer" machine. It's not. It's just a lower cost mini tower.
Why? It has a high performance CPU and would be capable of running most professional software. It's between low cost computers and workstations. If it's not a prosumer machine, then what the heck is?
Quote:
You're just guessing. Come up with prices on those sockets, and then find out what other components are required, and price them out as well. You'd be surprised at what they cost.
I don't design computers, but I've always thought that additional RAM sockets simply attached to the memory bus. LIkewise, a second PCIe card slot connects to a controller chip. These sockets don't require added parts. The Intel chip-set takes care of them.
If I'm wrong, I'd welcome an explanation -- as a chance to learn something new.
Go back and read what you wrote. You said, ". . . Some think that auto insert is no big deal, but it is. Every time a program change has to be made, it costs thousands of dollars. . . The assy line is custom made for that particular product. It is then broken down and re assembled into another configuration. . ."
Ok, you got me there. I wasn't as clear as I should have been. That later post should have cleared that up, as it was meant to do.
Quote:
Here it is clear to me that you are speaking of changing the auto insertion program, which is what happen when a product is modified. However, our discussion is a new product, and insertion programs must be set up in the beginning for all new products -- the ones you describe as well as the ones I describe. I had said in my reply to you, "All manufacturing procedures must be set up initially for the first pilot run. There is no added cost here."
Again, I thought I cleared that up. If more is being done, then the program requires more coding. While these programs aren't coded the way ordinary programs are, they still take time, and must be completely de-bugged. Sometimes the debugging isn't complete until the production line is tested. The more steps, the more time, the more money.
Quote:
Why is this point confusing? I thought it was clear and simple.
It's confusing because you aren't allowing fo the extra work that's being done.
Quote:
I was using your numbers. "A couple of extra 2 GB DIMMS can easily add 3 amps to the power draw. . ." Did you mean 30 Amperes? Power = Voltage * current. Looks like it's your error.
No not 30 amps. 3 amps would be more like 30 watts. Remember, I said "easily" Often it's much more than that. 100 watts would be 10 amps. That's an extreme, it's true, but not out of the question. If we are using DDR2, then 3 amps would be about right?30 watts. But if we are using a Xeon as some here think Apple should, then it would be more, as FB-DIMMS use a fair amount more power.
Quote:
Why? It has a high performance CPU and would be capable of running most professional software. It's between low cost computers and workstations. If it's not a prosumer machine, then what the heck is?
It's just that giving it that type of name leads one to all sorts of expectations for a machine that would be the same as every other PC in the same catagory.
It's really too bad that the Xeons REQUIRE FB-DIMMS. That really adds to the cost of a machine. It it didn't, then it could be used in a machine like this, and perhaps then, it could be given some other name such as the Mac Mini Pro, or somesuch name.
Quote:
I don't design computers, but I've always thought that additional RAM sockets simply attached to the memory bus. LIkewise, a second PCIe card slot connects to a controller chip. These sockets don't require added parts. The Intel chip-set takes care of them.
If I'm wrong, I'd welcome an explanation -- as a chance to learn something new.
[/QUOTE]
They require buffering chips to eliminate parasitic capacitance, and other problems. They also require de-coupling caps.
Comments
That is true.
Let's look at the price ranges for the current iMac
$999 to $1999
The current price range for single Conroe towers
$799 - > $1699( some at ~$3000)
The $799 model is bare bones low end with no monitor, integrated graphics, 512 MBs ram and 1.8GHz Core 2 Duo. Adding a graphics card ups it ~$120.($799 + $120 =$919). Bump the ram to 1GB add ~$90($919 + $90 = $999).
the $999 imac has the gma 950 and 512mb with a cd-rw
you can get a system with 1gb of ram, DVD+/-RW Drive, a real video card, free Display.
apple should have a low cost keyboard + mouse for the mini as a add on $78 is too high.
the $999 imac has the gma 950 and 512mb with a cd-rw
you can get a system with 1gb of ram, DVD+/-RW Drive, a real video card, free Display.
apple should have a low cost keyboard + mouse for the mini as a add on $78 is too high.
I haven't been able to find a Windows tower with a real video card, 1GB ram and a monitor for $799. Then again, I just go to Intel's website and go to the where to buy section and enter the price range at $669 - $999.
the $999 imac has the gma 950 and 512mb with a cd-rw
you can get a system with 1gb of ram, DVD+/-RW Drive, a real video card, free Display.
apple should have a low cost keyboard + mouse for the mini as a add on $78 is too high.
Mac ally does make a really good combo set, but I do agree.
I haven't been able to find a Windows tower with a real video card, 1GB ram and a monitor for $799. Then again, I just go to Intel's website and go to the where to buy section and enter the price range at $669 - $999.
You can BTO, but still it isn't anything great.
I haven't been able to find a Windows tower with a real video card, 1GB ram and a monitor for $799. Then again, I just go to Intel's website and go to the where to buy section and enter the price range at $669 - $999.
the systems out there at the mini price range come with gma x3000 or gma 3000 video 1gb or more of ram and a dvd-rw drive with a slots for video and other cards.
http://www.pcworld.com/article/id,13...s/article.html
"Neither the Mac Mini nor the iMac accepts internal upgrades beyond more memory, so to get a system that will accept additional components later, you'll have to spring for a dual-processor Mac Pro, which starts at a steep $2200."
-dan
One thing that the Mac Pro has in its favor for some of these applications (where it's really too much, but no other Mac is enough) is that it is silent. I hadn't realized HOW quiet it is until last week, because I had only used them in rooms with other computers. Using a Mac Pro in a room with no other computer, I was amazed that it has no noticeable fan noise. This is very different from any other tower I'm aware of (except for specialized audio editing computers), and goes a long way towards counteracting the size issue (doesn't do anything about the price, though!).
-dan
Don't see how it counteracts anything. The Mac Pro doesn't fit some of the brackets that people attach to desks to hold towers. People would need to place it on the floor, where it's vulnerable to children, pets, water.
Others want a cube / maxi-mini. They don't want a computer under the desk at all. The Mac Pro would look very conspicuous standing on the desktop.
Looks like PC Magazine is asking the same question now as well...
http://www.pcworld.com/article/id,13...s/article.html
"Neither the Mac Mini nor the iMac accepts internal upgrades beyond more memory, so to get a system that will accept additional components later, you'll have to spring for a dual-processor Mac Pro, which starts at a steep $2200."
Keep the pressure going guys. Apple may finally release an "iMac" with upgradeable graphics in addition to RAM. Was not the Cube the last non-Power Mac Macintosh that offered that option?
The cube was a PowerMac
Let me rephrase: non-Power Mac-sized Macintosh.
Don't see how it counteracts anything. The Mac Pro doesn't fit some of the brackets that people attach to desks to hold towers. People would need to place it on the floor, where it's vulnerable to children, pets, water.
Others want a cube / maxi-mini. They don't want a computer under the desk at all. The Mac Pro would look very conspicuous standing on the desktop.
Brackets have nothing to do with it.
When a computer is in a bracket, it is subject to children, pets, and water. Anytime you have enough water in your room that it threatens the computer, you're in trouble anyway.
Most of us with large computers put them under the desk.
I was amazed that it has no noticeable fan noise. This is very different from any other tower I'm aware of (except for specialized audio editing computers), and goes a long way towards counteracting the size issue. . .
Don't see how it counteracts anything. . .
Obviously, the larger size means greater air space inside, so fans can turn slower. Cooling the same power components in a small enclosures requires higher air pressure to deliver the same volume of cooling air, resulting in noisier fans.
I'm posting it again, but from MacCentral, as they are now out.
How long will we wait for Apple's version?
Will Apple skip the current Core 2 Meroms?
Will we wait until Penyrn?
http://www.macworld.com/news/2007/05...rosa/index.php
Yes, but its dead technology. You're better off buying a Mac Pro and ebaying the extra Xeon if you are inclined toward the single Xeon model that has been suggested.
Vinea
PowerPCs may be dead but they still have a very happy four or five years ahead of them. A g5 will be supported for a long time to come. And the Classic Mac OS is supported on them, not to mention other fun projects.
. . . Some think that auto insert is no big deal, but it is. Every time a program change has to be made, it costs thousands of dollars. Every surface mount resistor, diode, and cap costs money to insert. The assy line is custom made for that particular product. It is then broken down and re assembled into another configuration. . .
You are describing the economics of a modification, but we are discussing a new product. All manufacturing procedures must be set up initially for the first pilot run. There is no added cost here.
Just remember that for every slot you add, you have to increase the size of the power supply. The same thing for extra memory, and again, the same for an extra optical slot. . . A couple of extra 2 GB DIMMS can easily add 3 amps to the power draw. . .
So less than 10 Watts for two extra DIMMS and maybe 90 Watts for a second optical drive and PCI card. That would up your 425 Watt supply to 525 Watts. Still a long way from the 980 Watts of a Mac Pro.
Now, I know that it sounds like a lot, and it is, but using some knowledge of the power requirements of the components, I estimate that removing everything from that machine to get to yours would still require 600 watts.
I believe you are overlooking the fact that the Xeon and its memory draw higher current than the equivalent desktop CPU and memory. I like my 525 Watts better than your 600 Watt estimate that you got by working down.
The point is, I wouldn't like to see Apple cut out too much on a prosumer Mac tower. It needs at least 2 PCIe cards, in addition to the graphics card. No one will object to having one or two more slots than they actually need, or an extra optical drive bay. The place to skimp would be a low end Mac Mini replacement.
It would still add $60 to $80 to the final cost of the machine. . . Again it depends on the cost, and the more you add, the higher the cost.
The cost of 2 RAM socks, one PCIe socket and a cable to an empty optical drive bay is trivial. The bulk of the cost would be going from your 425 Watt supply to a 525 Watt supply. That would likely add less than $40. But even if it were an $80 price increase, I think that is not too much for a prosumer Mac mini tower, provided Apple improves the Mac Mini.
The upper end Mac Mini needs higher performance graphics and CPU, plus a full size desktop drive and optical drive.
no, these costs all exist from the beginning. It's costs extra for the extra programming time to set the lines uop for extra components, and it costs more to insert them.
You are in denial here.
So less than 10 Watts for two extra DIMMS and maybe 90 Watts for a second optical drive and PCI card. That would up your 425 Watt supply to 525 Watts. Still a long way from the 980 Watts of a Mac Pro.
Try 50 to 100 watts for two 2 GB DIMMS.
I believe you are overlooking the fact that the Xeon and its memory draw higher current than the equivalent desktop CPU and memory. I like my 525 Watts better than your 600 Watt estimate that you got by working down.
You might like it, but it's too low anyway.
The point is, I wouldn't like to see Apple cut out too much on a prosumer Mac tower. It needs at least 2 PCIe cards, in addition to the graphics card. No one will object to having one or two more slots than they actually need, or an extra optical drive bay. The place to skimp would be a low end Mac Mini replacement.
Your first mistake is in calling this a "prosumer" machine. It's not. It's just a lower cost mini tower.
The cost of 2 RAM socks, one PCIe socket and a cable to an empty optical drive bay is trivial. The bulk of the cost would be going from your 425 Watt supply to a 525 Watt supply. That would likely add less than $40. But even if it were an $80 price increase, I think that is not too much for a prosumer Mac mini tower, provided Apple improves the Mac Mini.
You're just guessing. Come up with prices on those sockets, and then find out what other components are rrquired, and price them out as well. You'd be surprised at what they cost.
The upper end Mac Mini needs higher performance graphics and CPU, plus a full size desktop drive and optical drive.
That's a different story.
no, these costs all exist from the beginning. It's costs extra for the extra programming time to set the lines uop for extra components, and it costs more to insert them.
You are in denial here.
Go back and read what you wrote. You said, ". . . Some think that auto insert is no big deal, but it is. Every time a program change has to be made, it costs thousands of dollars. . . The assy line is custom made for that particular product. It is then broken down and re assembled into another configuration. . ."
Here it is clear to me that you are speaking of changing the auto insertion program, which is what happen when a product is modified. However, our discussion is a new product, and insertion programs must be set up in the beginning for all new products -- the ones you describe as well as the ones I describe. I had said in my reply to you, "All manufacturing procedures must be set up initially for the first pilot run. There is no added cost here."
Why is this point confusing? I thought it was clear and simple.
Try 50 to 100 watts for two 2 GB DIMMS.
Your first mistake is in calling this a "prosumer" machine. It's not. It's just a lower cost mini tower.
Why? It has a high performance CPU and would be capable of running most professional software. It's between low cost computers and workstations. If it's not a prosumer machine, then what the heck is?
You're just guessing. Come up with prices on those sockets, and then find out what other components are required, and price them out as well. You'd be surprised at what they cost.
I don't design computers, but I've always thought that additional RAM sockets simply attached to the memory bus. LIkewise, a second PCIe card slot connects to a controller chip. These sockets don't require added parts. The Intel chip-set takes care of them.
If I'm wrong, I'd welcome an explanation -- as a chance to learn something new.
Go back and read what you wrote. You said, ". . . Some think that auto insert is no big deal, but it is. Every time a program change has to be made, it costs thousands of dollars. . . The assy line is custom made for that particular product. It is then broken down and re assembled into another configuration. . ."
Ok, you got me there. I wasn't as clear as I should have been. That later post should have cleared that up, as it was meant to do.
Here it is clear to me that you are speaking of changing the auto insertion program, which is what happen when a product is modified. However, our discussion is a new product, and insertion programs must be set up in the beginning for all new products -- the ones you describe as well as the ones I describe. I had said in my reply to you, "All manufacturing procedures must be set up initially for the first pilot run. There is no added cost here."
Again, I thought I cleared that up. If more is being done, then the program requires more coding. While these programs aren't coded the way ordinary programs are, they still take time, and must be completely de-bugged. Sometimes the debugging isn't complete until the production line is tested. The more steps, the more time, the more money.
Why is this point confusing? I thought it was clear and simple.
It's confusing because you aren't allowing fo the extra work that's being done.
No not 30 amps. 3 amps would be more like 30 watts. Remember, I said "easily" Often it's much more than that. 100 watts would be 10 amps. That's an extreme, it's true, but not out of the question. If we are using DDR2, then 3 amps would be about right?30 watts. But if we are using a Xeon as some here think Apple should, then it would be more, as FB-DIMMS use a fair amount more power.
Why? It has a high performance CPU and would be capable of running most professional software. It's between low cost computers and workstations. If it's not a prosumer machine, then what the heck is?
It's just that giving it that type of name leads one to all sorts of expectations for a machine that would be the same as every other PC in the same catagory.
It's really too bad that the Xeons REQUIRE FB-DIMMS. That really adds to the cost of a machine. It it didn't, then it could be used in a machine like this, and perhaps then, it could be given some other name such as the Mac Mini Pro, or somesuch name.
I don't design computers, but I've always thought that additional RAM sockets simply attached to the memory bus. LIkewise, a second PCIe card slot connects to a controller chip. These sockets don't require added parts. The Intel chip-set takes care of them.
If I'm wrong, I'd welcome an explanation -- as a chance to learn something new.
They require buffering chips to eliminate parasitic capacitance, and other problems. They also require de-coupling caps.