Road to Mac OS X Leopard: Dock 1.6

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  • Reply 101 of 145
    junkiejunkie Posts: 122member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by melgross View Post


    You could have made it much easier for that girl if you just told her to hit "command "Q"" to quit. If someone can't understand that, they shouldn't be allowed to have a computer.\



    Well this was a force quit - so I said Command Option Q - her response, what is the command key? So I'm glad that key is back, but there again - that "command" was assumed knowledge.



    Even the right click takes more thinking, control click.



    Thing I love about the iPhone is that it is actually dead simple. That is the way it should be. There is so much we take for granted. Even though I can do it all on the Mac, I'd still rather it was easier.



    Actually, it would be really nice if the dock helped you with a failed app. Like if an app is dead for more than 2 minutes, it might get a sick indicator and clicking on it might give you the option to force quit.



    Also, i would really like a way to lock items on the dock. So, I'd lock the first 5 items on the dock, so they can't be dragged off. Right click to unlock. At least that way safari is always there. I feel like I have seen this function before on the dock, am I wrong?



    In terms of the problem with the open apps - they do take cycles, on a slow machine quitting apps helps. Maybe the OS or a 3rd party thing could notice these unused apps and prompt to quit them, or maybe even quit them in the background, with an exclude list of course.
  • Reply 102 of 145
    melgrossmelgross Posts: 33,233member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by junkie View Post


    Well this was a force quit - so I said Command Option Q - her response, what is the command key? So I'm glad that key is back, but there again - that "command" was assumed knowledge.



    Even the right click takes more thinking, control click.



    Thing I love about the iPhone is that it is actually dead simple. That is the way it should be. There is so much we take for granted. Even though I can do it all on the Mac, I'd still rather it was easier.



    Sadly, everything requires at least SOME intelligence. If someone doesn't understand what, or where, the "command " keys are, I just say that there are two, and they are at the left and right of the "space bar".



    I've never spoken to anyone who didn't know what, or where, the spacebar was.



    Right clicking is now both a standard Mac and PC function. I hate to even think about how much grief PC people used to give me over the lack of a right button on Apple's mice.
  • Reply 103 of 145
    pbpb Posts: 4,238member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by melgross View Post


    So it's less annoying having it there taking up unnecessary space?



    For me, yes. I prefer to have it visible and static, even if it takes some screen space. I would find it ideal if there was a keyboard shortcut (say ctrl-alt-cmd-d) that not only hide it but made it completely disappear, until you use again the shortcut to make it visible. It should be trivial from a programming point of view to implement this behavior.



    Quote:
    Originally Posted by melgross View Post


    Place it where you don't go with your cursor. I find the left side to be fine. When I do hit it, rarely, it goes away almost instantly anyway.



    It does not work for me. I don't like having something getting in my way because I accidentally reached some edge. Anyway, it is just personal preference and I explained what would be the solution that works for me.
  • Reply 104 of 145
    pbpb Posts: 4,238member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by melgross View Post


    That's very rare, and not norrmal. Even then, the machine does not come to a halt. With Windows, it's a problem, constantly.



    It is not so rare on older machines it seems with the latest updates of the browsers. You see, I don't have the latest and greatest Mac hardware. Although having felt the power of the Intel Macs on newer models displayed on shops, I am almost sure that this would not be a problem with them.



    But even when it shows up on older PowerPC hardware, it is true that it does not brings the machine to a halt, thanks to OS X great multitasking.
  • Reply 105 of 145
    junkiejunkie Posts: 122member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by melgross View Post


    "I've never spoken to anyone who didn't know what, or where, the spacebar was.



    Right clicking is now both a standard Mac and PC function. I hate to even think about how much grief PC people used to give me over the lack of a right button on Apple's mice.



    Well my Mom who is 75 and an amazing usability test bed does not know what the space bar is called. She uses it, but if I asked her to point at the space bar I don't think she would, I really don't and she is an intelligent person. People don't know the names for things. Like saying "the keyboard", I have have people not know what that is. Its hilarious. They are looking at the screen, really trying to see it.



    And yes right clicking is well supported in the OS, but to a laptop user, its hard to find. It just another thing to learn...
  • Reply 106 of 145
    pbpb Posts: 4,238member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by melgross View Post


    I hope you're not saying that Apple should change the entire concept of the OS, so that a few people like her won't have to learn how to close a program?



    No, what I say is that there are people out there not willing to learn some basic functions of an OS and my wife is included to this group. The distinction between cmd-q and cmd-w has good reasons to remain.



    Quote:
    Originally Posted by melgross View Post


    She's used to doing it that way. I had the same problem with my wife. even though she's been using Macs from way back, and much prefers them, she is so used to Windows at work, that she instintively closes the window. But telling her about "command Q" solved the problem. Certainly simple enough.



    Mine too used with me Macs for many years, but general purpose computing is not her strong point. She knows about cmd-q and I have repeated myself on several occasions to no avail. When willing is lacking there is little you can do.
  • Reply 107 of 145
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by huntercr View Post


    It's been mentioned here already. but the article really shouldn't have left out OS/2's Launchpad, which is by far the most functionally and visually similar to OS X's dock. it even had similar functionality to OS X's stacks ( though considerably more primitive )



    Below is what it looked like in OS/2 Warp 3 from 1995



    Also Sun's Solaris 2.5 had the CDE task bar in 1995 as well.



    One thing I miss from my OS/2 days is the ability to create a workplace shell folder that contains a set of the documents I am working on. Once I close the folder the documents also close. When I reopen the folder the documents that were open get reopened and the ones that were closed stay closed. It was a great way to do things especially for projects. I vaguely remember you could create app shadows to get apps to autorun when you open the folder (if they were running when you closed it).



    I don't remember what the folder type was called. I remember dragging it from the templates object, but oh well.... Life moves on and at least OS-X and Linux are better managed.



    Edit: It was called a WorkArea folder. I remembered and found the reference in OSNEWS. The templates were are great way to do things as well.
  • Reply 108 of 145
    melgrossmelgross Posts: 33,233member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by junkie View Post


    Well my Mom who is 75 and an amazing usability test bed does not know what the space bar is called. She uses it, but if I asked her to point at the space bar I don't think she would, I really don't and she is an intelligent person. People don't know the names for things. Like saying "the keyboard", I have have people not know what that is. Its hilarious. They are looking at the screen, really trying to see it.



    And yes right clicking is well supported in the OS, but to a laptop user, its hard to find. It just another thing to learn...



    That's pretty amazing. After all, typewriters have had spacebars, and have called them that, from the 1800's. Hard to believe people haven't ever seen, or used, a typewriter when they are of that age. Even when I was a kid, we were taught typing in school. We were taught the names, and functions of all the keys.



    Unless she's become that forgetful. If that's so, we really can't expect any company to design around individuals such as that.
  • Reply 109 of 145
    dfilerdfiler Posts: 3,420member
    No more hierarchical folder access via a single click?

    Guess it is time to redo my entire workflow.



    I think I like the concept of stacks but honestly I'm not sure why. When accessed via the dock, it seems we've traded functional efficiency for a bit of glitz.



    Grid view is interesting but only appropriate for a subset of daily tasks. Without a tight vertical list of words, they aren't easily scannable by name. Throughout a thousand years of typography, vertical lists have remained the most optimal way to scan linearly ordered text phrases. A grid puts more items on the screen at once when those items are square instead of wide and short. Hence, it sometimes makes sense for display of lists of graphical items. But for text? We've long known grids to be inferior for this application.



    And don't even get me started on a curved list of items...



    I think it is a huge mistake to eliminate the ability to quickly scan (by name) the contents of a docked folder. The solution is simple though, grid view, pointless curvy view, and list view.
  • Reply 110 of 145
    melgrossmelgross Posts: 33,233member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by PB View Post


    No, what I say is that there are people out there not willing to learn some basic functions of an OS and my wife is included to this group. The distinction between cmd-q and cmd-w has good reasons to remain.





    Mine too used with me Macs for many years, but general purpose computing is not her strong point. She knows about cmd-q and I have repeated myself on several occasions to no avail. When willing is lacking there is little you can do.



    The problem we share, along with junkie, is a common, and well known one.



    No matter that we may be well known experts, even at a job, that our friends and family are well aware of, we are still just the son, or spouse.



    Because of that, we don't have the "spiritual" authority to tell them what to do, and expect them to do it.



    What they really need, is a class that is tought by someone, other than ourselves, who does have that authority.



    I go through that with my daughter. Even though I'm a fairly well known authority in my field of photography, my daughter, who is now taking photography in school, would rather not ask me questions—even though her teachers do!
  • Reply 111 of 145
    melgrossmelgross Posts: 33,233member
    changed my mind about the post
  • Reply 112 of 145
    dfilerdfiler Posts: 3,420member
    [edit: Removed portion of post responding to melgross's deleted post (no worries) ]





    Efficiently browsing by name is perhaps the most critical ability of any file system viewer. Removing this capability is simply baffling from a usability perspective. I suspect that apple will eventually add it back in so I'll try to wait them out.
  • Reply 113 of 145
    junkiejunkie Posts: 122member
    in terms of not having authority, I totally agree. My family know I am expert at this stuff so:

    1) they are dependent on my expertise, they'd rather stay ignorant

    2) when I tell them things, it does not resonate the way it would from an outside teacher or book

    3) when they see how well and how fast I use it they get discouraged, like I can't do that so might as well not try.
  • Reply 114 of 145
    melgrossmelgross Posts: 33,233member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by dfiler View Post


    [edit: Removed portion of post responding to melgross's deleted post (no worries) ]





    Efficiently browsing by name is perhaps the most critical ability of any file system viewer. Removing this capability is simply baffling from a usability perspective. I suspect that apple will eventually add it back in so I'll try to wait them out.



    Sorry about that.



    When I re-read my post, I realized that some of those features might not be from the program, but from the OS itself, and therefore might disappear with 10.5.
  • Reply 115 of 145
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by TiAdiMundo View Post


    Think of what would happen, if Apple would replace the Tabs in Safari with a Dock-like bar?! The Taskbar in Windows is like a Tabbar for the OS.



    That is one of the most valid points that I've seen pointed by a PC user in a long time. You have an extremely unbiased, and obviously, opposed opinion regarding the dock and I respect it. If Safari had a dock instead of a tabbing system, it would be awkward and cluttered.



    I hadn't thought of it previously, but Vista's tabbing system, the taskbar, seems to be thoroughly thought out, and the outcome is pleasant. I haven't used it, but by your description, it seems much more logical then the dock we know.



    Honestly, the dock is definitely the eye candy of the two, the taskbar will never match up to the appearance of the dock.



    Now, if only Apple would have a minimize feature (like tabs) come under the Apple Taskbar (top), that worked like Safari's tabs. That would be a feature you could use instead of having the live preview on your dock. I'd prefer using the dock, but people like you, who prefer having your information, preview and logo in one informational division, then that would be ideal.



    I suppose somebody should do a mock up of the tabbing task bar for OS X. I'd be awfully interested to see the outcomes.
  • Reply 116 of 145
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by bsenka View Post


    You're right, it's not all of them, but it is a more useful selection than what the OS X Dock shows. Most "main processes" directly related to the apps I'm running show up in the task bar, so that I actually know that they are operating at a glance.



    Here's an example of how OS X does not give me useful info in that regard: The other day I noticed while looking at the Activity Viewer that an app called "ffmpeg" was not only running in the background unbeknownst to me, but that it was actually the biggest system hog I had running, using more RAM and CPU capacity than everything else combined, including the OS. I had to do some investigating for find out that is was iSquint that was using ffmpeg for video conversion. When iSquint launched ffmpeg, it should have shown up in the dock. Processes this significant certainly show up in the task bar in Windows.



    Don't get me wrong, I HATE Windows. I just hate the Dock even more than I hate the WindowsTask bar.



    Significance on a user interface level has little to do with resource consumption. It would be no more difficult to have a frontend to a "hidden" command line tool on Windows. From the user perspective, a background process like ffmpeg is functionally similar to simply having the iSquint process perform those tasks (and consume those resources) through libraries. In such a case, neither OS is trying to hide resource hogs from you, it's just presenting the interface as the GUI developer designed it.
  • Reply 117 of 145
    junkiejunkie Posts: 122member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by dfiler View Post


    No more hierarchical folder access via a single click?

    Guess it is time to redo my entire workflow.



    I think I like the concept of stacks but honestly I'm not sure why. When accessed via the dock, it seems we've traded functional efficiency for a bit of glitz.



    I agree with this sentiment, but i am finding in practice the grid works with the important caveat that more than 10 items and it breaks for me, I can't scan that much visually.



    For the user longing for menu interface, a consolation might be to create a stack of your favorite folders, then have windows settings for each that let you see the info in a optimal way.



    Surely, its not the same, but it might be nice it its own way too. Personally, I could never make use of the folder menu approach, the menus were too huge and difficult to manage.
  • Reply 118 of 145
    Yeah, you know, at least for me focusing on the Dock was a bad idea. It reminded me of how much it sucks and how much nicer it was to have tabs, a working Apple menu and Applications menu. The old Finder interface is still much superior to the visually catchy OS X mess (although OS X is much prettier).



    It's interesting because, until I read this article I thought I had finally made peace with the Dock but my hackles started rising as I read. Now I realize that I am merely resigned to bad HI; I'm becoming like a Windows user.



    And for the record the applications menu would tell you at a glance what applications were running and if they needed any attention. Better yet, the about this Mac window could be left open: It would show you every application that was running with a nice realtime bar graph showing it's resource utilization (balloon help would show a detailed and exact breakdown on memory and processor usage); clicking on an app Icon in the window would bring that app to the foreground.
  • Reply 119 of 145
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Katsudon View Post


    Nope. They've completely removed this functionality including the ability to do hierarchical folder browsing. For users that used this often, stacks are a step backwards.



    Wow. This sucks. My enthusiasm for Leopard is seriously deflated.



    This appears to be a HUGE step backwards in functionality.



    Hope this is corrected quickly.
  • Reply 120 of 145
    junkiejunkie Posts: 122member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by bnsmmr View Post


    Wow. This sucks. My enthusiasm for Leopard is seriously deflated.



    This appears to be a HUGE step backwards in functionality.



    Hope this is corrected quickly.



    Some of this should go with a grain of salt given that, at least from my perception, these supposedly close to release builds don't seem quite fully cooked.



    But its also the case that, well, Apple pushes stuff around. Some for good reason, other times it seems they are trying to take us in another direction. Like to me, the dock has improved, I think it is a much better launcher now. If you don't like it, there are usually a ton of freeware hacks that let you fix it.



    Mixed in with a lot of great stuff, I see a few things that will annoy people, some that annoy me. Apple takes risks. Could they leave a lot of stuff in to make people happy, probably, but it also adds a lot of crud that never gets cleaned up.



    But on the whole, I'd much rather have an active OS company that messes with stuff, pushes a lot of stuff forward at the same time, even if it means that I make adjustments. At least this OS is being worked on and progressing. Stagnation is much worse. But there are a lot of people who rather not see things change, and they might not be ready for the ride that Apple offers. Its going to be interesting to see how a mainstream audience responds to Apple's efforts to reinvent.
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