... but, I personally don't mind either interface. Having been with my Mac for only a few months, I'm not as 'bored' (for lack of a better word) with Aqua as I can imagine some may be. I can see why people want change from Aqua, but it's still holds its own and looking back, I'd say it was actually ahead of its time. Above all, I'd much prefer a consistent look across the OS - whichever interface, just take one and stick with it Apple! Mail has pinstripes, Finder and Safari have brushed metal, and iTunes has the new look... why?
It makes me wonder if later on in the life of the Leopard, they'll be mixing even newer themes (e.g. when they release a new iLife/iWork) in with the current (iTunes) look. Consistency is pretty important to me, and looking at the thread, quite a few users here if only Apple would hear us
But I'm not waiting until they fix it... already pre-ordered my copy of Leopard
I wonder though why they left the Aqua elements there while a replacement should be trivial from a programmatic point of view.
Here are three possible reasons:
1. They actually had analysts think about it, and decided to leave it as is for temporal UI consistency (within that app)
2. They simply didn't have the time. Any change to commercial software is not as simple as the programmatic change. It then must go through QA, etc.
3. first 2, then 1, then some product manager realized that no one would care enough to prevent them from buying the product, and that, as they say, was that.
Perhaps, also, I'm not alone in thinking that the proposed UI's are lame, and remind me of some of the chintsey window managers in KDE or Gnome.
... Above all, I'd much prefer a consistent look across the OS - whichever interface, just take one and stick with it Apple! Mail has pinstripes, Finder and Safari have brushed metal, and iTunes has the new look...
that is the problem. The iTunes look is now super OLD! We have had it for a long time now and just taking this old theme and making it appear all over leopard is not an innovative way of doing things and it looks a bit dated to be honest. I think it is still classy, but not all that Apple can come up with. That and the idea that they would go with that theme throughout. It looks like they missed the boat. The aqua scrollbars are still in, but in a couple iLife apps they are like the iTunes scrollbars. Just tacky. and inconsistent, which was why they went with the whole underwhelming iTunes theme to begin with - to be consistent.
I'm torn as I am excited about the under the hood features, but truthfully I am kinda bummed oabout the GUI issues.
If it's such a problem, then don't buy a mac, or at least write Apple a letter about it. I think we've found out from this thread that very few people actually care at all, and that certainly no one cares enough to do anything about it.
Furthermore, Apple's job is to sell computers and high tech items. "Delivering a consistent UI" is of absolutely no importance unless it affects their ability to sell computers and high tech items. Since the complaints here bemoan details which are "in the noise," it's almost certain that the financial impact of these GUI travesties is also "in the noise."
And that is how Microsoft was born. And as Apple took them to task in the early to mid 2000's by saying "good enough" is not good enough.
Apple needs to get back to what got them on the upswing to begin with. Make it special.
Anal retentive consistency is VASTLY overrated. Do interface element appearances get in the way of actually doing work? No, with the caveat that you can turn blue Aqua to grey Aqua if you do color critical work. Actually some degree of inconsistency, within certain bounds, is a good cue for partitioning tasks or working metaphors.
Not mechanically getting in the way of doing work is the measuring stick for UI success. Eye candy wiether that means it is there or purposefully not there is just decoration. The best UIs are just there and allow you to ignore them after a period of initial familiarity. I think Aqua and the related OS X widgets are for all intents and purposes at the ignorable level for all but the most nitpicking users. Nothing to be done which will satisfy all of them.
Anal retentive consistency is VASTLY overrated. Do interface element appearances get in the way of actually doing work? No, with the caveat that you can turn blue Aqua to grey Aqua if you do color critical work. Actually some degree of inconsistency, within certain bounds, is a good cue for partitioning tasks or working metaphors.
Not mechanically getting in the way of doing work is the measuring stick for UI success. Eye candy wiether that means it is there or purposefully not there is just decoration. The best UIs are just there and allow you to ignore them after a period of initial familiarity. I think Aqua and the related OS X widgets are for all intents and purposes at the ignorable level for all but the most nitpicking users. Nothing to be done which will satisfy all of them.
Undermining the integrity of the argument by calling such cares anal retentive is really no counter argument at all. Only childish. True anal retentiveness would be overly fussy over much smaller matters. This is completely obvious.
Does user interface consistency issues get in the way of work? The answer is obvious. However, we are not just talking "Good enough" Microsoft style, are we. This is Apple. This is a brand new OS and UI consistency is one of the main things it is touted for bringing to the table. It fails there. That is a big deal. This is a company that fusses over trying designing a computer with no visible screw for crying out loud. this is a company that won't use certain components to maintain a certain thinness of its products.
Some degree of inconsistency so long as it is purposed, would be fine. ala brushed metal vs gradient in Tiger. Not going to the iTunes theme, but neglecting to go all the way, promising a certain look with iLife, but then failing to put the proper polish in with the rest of the OS / apps.
When designers work on the look of something, they are paid to get it right. In this case, something is amiss. Apple seems so devoted to the iPhone right now that it looks great, but the new OS is looking somewhat like a beta. It looks like a mashup of two ideas and not a proper UI design.
Now, I said I am excited about the under the hood improvements and that is true. I will probably replace my Powerbook with a Macbook Pro right after Leopard comes out so that I can have that new OS (and an intel mac - still can't believe my two year old purchase is obsolete already) ASAP. However, I will hold out hope that point releases fix the UI inconsistencies along with the inevitable bugs.
To sum up, the UI should be consistent as it is actually a major selling point and it is apple and it is a new OS. Let's just be honest here, it won't break the purchase decision for many and it won't affect performance or workflow, but it does look not quite right and it seems amateurish. You have to agree that Apple looked like they were completing the look when you saw iLife 08. That is what they should have done.
All I expect it to do is sit on top of UNIX. I've used Openwin, Motif, CDE, KDE and GNOME and now that OS X comes with virtual desktops, it's all good.
Wow, Someone is actualy going to boycot leopard because of that... It'll be years before you see an OS update buddy. Good luck with that.
I am afraid he will not need luck. Tiger will by no means have the fate of 10.0-10.1 that were quickly forgotten, because so many features were missing. Tiger will be supported for a long time with regular security updates and everything working today with it, will still work for at least three years from now.
In the beginning of this decade we had no other option but to update. With Mac OS X slowly maturing, this has changed, for the better or the worst.
Undermining the integrity of the argument by calling such cares anal retentive is really no counter argument at all. Only childish. True anal retentiveness would be overly fussy over much smaller matters. This is completely obvious.
Does user interface consistency issues get in the way of work? The answer is obvious. However, we are not just talking "Good enough" Microsoft style, are we. This is Apple. This is a brand new OS and UI consistency is one of the main things it is touted for bringing to the table. It fails there. That is a big deal. This is a company that fusses over trying designing a computer with no visible screw for crying out loud. this is a company that won't use certain components to maintain a certain thinness of its products.
Some degree of inconsistency so long as it is purposed, would be fine. ala brushed metal vs gradient in Tiger. Not going to the iTunes theme, but neglecting to go all the way, promising a certain look with iLife, but then failing to put the proper polish in with the rest of the OS / apps.
When designers work on the look of something, they are paid to get it right. In this case, something is amiss. Apple seems so devoted to the iPhone right now that it looks great, but the new OS is looking somewhat like a beta. It looks like a mashup of two ideas and not a proper UI design.
Now, I said I am excited about the under the hood improvements and that is true. I will probably replace my Powerbook with a Macbook Pro right after Leopard comes out so that I can have that new OS (and an intel mac - still can't believe my two year old purchase is obsolete already) ASAP. However, I will hold out hope that point releases fix the UI inconsistencies along with the inevitable bugs.
To sum up, the UI should be consistent as it is actually a major selling point and it is apple and it is a new OS. Let's just be honest here, it won't break the purchase decision for many and it won't affect performance or workflow, but it does look not quite right and it seems amateurish. You have to agree that Apple looked like they were completing the look when you saw iLife 08. That is what they should have done.
I just wanted to say you are right on with this. I can't believe Apple let the GUI look the way it did.
I was so disappointed. It could have been so much better. I've been hacking OS X's GUI to look the way I have wanted to since before the Public Betas.
The first version of Aqua was consistent, but hard on the eyes. I made a few old themes (Simple Aqua, Sosumi) to make it easier on the eyes.
Apple has finally gotten rid of Brushed Metal, and the ugly pinstripes, but it's keeping about 10% of it's other Aqua crapness.
Not only should the bars look like iTunes's new ones, the stoplights need to go. So do the other Aqua elements. They look so dated.
It would be neat if we could have scroll bars like iTunes and some of the other iApps and be able to choose colors like we did in OS 9.
I just wanted to say you are right on with this. I can't believe Apple let the GUI look the way it did.
I was so disappointed. It could have been so much better. I've been hacking OS X's GUI to look the way I have wanted to since before the Public Betas.
The first version of Aqua was consistent, but hard on the eyes. I made a few old themes (Simple Aqua, Sosumi) to make it easier on the eyes.
Apple has finally gotten rid of Brushed Metal, and the ugly pinstripes, but it's keeping about 10% of it's other Aqua crapness.
Not only should the bars look like iTunes's new ones, the stoplights need to go. So do the other Aqua elements. They look so dated.
It would be neat if we could have scroll bars like iTunes and some of the other iApps and be able to choose colors like we did in OS 9.
Now there's an idea.
Excellent thoughts. It is good to know that not everyone thinks it is OK to let the sparkling new MAC OS look less than.
Microsoft poured its resources into Vista and while it is not in the totally useable stage, it does look like it is supposed to.
Leopard is awesome as far as features go and it is light years ahead of Vista. However, in one category that Apple usually dominates, Leopard falls flat. There are only a few minor tweaks that could really turn this around. It would even be better to delay the thing a month or two. My notebook has been built with unbelievable attention to detail. From the companents, performance, reliability and looks, it always leaves people impressed. Now, it will do so until it is fired up. Not cool.
I have never used themes on my Mac and never intend to, but the themes that you created are very good. just looked them up.
It would be nice if Apple made the whole OS look like Aperture. That is a UI with some class and time put into to it. Very nice. Everything looks just right and super classy. I cannot believe how
Apple can make a UI like Aperture and not either make one as good or better for the next gen OS. C'mon! Even the buttons look like the natural progression of Aqua that fits perfectly with a gradient metal theme.
Microsoft was born because Gates & co. were business savvy and were in the right place at the right time. Their products have never been very good: it's not like all of the sudden, MS apps started to stink. While they have lots of business savvy, they have never been able to correctly manage a software development project. Apple has something like 6% marketshare. Making MS comparisons is just plain stupid, unless you're talking about the iPod. Of course, the iPod has always been good, and seems to continue to improve ahead of the market, so the comparison isn't particularly valid there, either.
Yes, many people can't deal with change, and hence fight against it. It's too bad for you that change is the only certainty in the universe.
Quote:
Originally Posted by 9secondko
Undermining the integrity of the argument by calling such cares anal retentive is really no counter argument at all. Only childish. True anal retentiveness would be overly fussy over much smaller matters. This is completely obvious.
Yes, it's beyond anal retention: it's full blown obsessive-compulsive disorder. And it is a valid argument, since it's hinged on the "you can't please all the people all the time" axiom. Crying bloody-murder because Apple is spending resources on more pivotal features instead of satisfying an impossibly small market sector -- now that's childish.
I am indeed noting of course that this is about the 4th thread you have started complaining, a criticism you leveled at me if I remember rightly, very negative, odd that.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ireland
Excuse me? I have been talking about the mock-up for weeks, and I said I was going to use all elements from iTunes, which I did. He showed me his mock-up and I merely said; "no, more along these lines". The mock-ups are different, it doesn't take a genius to work that out. I'd be happy if someone took my version and said; "how about this?", and did something different.
Thats the problem though, you don't actually seem to take criticism all that well, you give exceptionally short replies and ignore or dismiss comment that isn't exactly inline with your thinking. (as will likely be noted by your 2 word or so reply to this post)
Also as Vinea remarked, you start a new thread, it seems primarily to get your own name at the top of the thread. One wonders if this is just to look good when you Digg it, or look prolific, or both? not that, that in itself is a crime, just irritating.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ireland
It's not the first time I have said that, by any means at all. As I said I used Apple's own buttons to make the mock-up. These's buttons are already present in iTunes.
Not a sneaky move at all, Flickr's stuff tends to get more diggs, and I want Apple to here us (Mac users).
Look if you are SO convinced that you have these fantastically great ideas that would send Apple to a 20%(or more) OS share then PLEASE apply for a job with them.
Is there anything actually stopping you from applying to Apple Ireland?
REALLY get in there, even if its only on the ground floor, it's a start isn't it.
Better yet, if you are so sure of your convictions go apply to Cupertino get your CV over to them, I'm sure with your skill and ambition, plus credentials, working knowledge of OSX, not to mention the obvious experience you have in UI design they would snap you up in an instant.
Lets face it, crying about what Apple do or do not include on their OS in a message board is hardly going to change the world, is it?
So get out there and get a job with Apple.
--
My real surprise at this thread is that you were SO overboard with your praise for Leopard earlier in the year, didn't you have leopard derived URLs for sale at one point? Why when you were so remarkably in favour of Leopard 8 months ago, would this one comparatively small thing irk you so much that you feel outraged enough to BOYCOTT the new OS altogether? Are the 300 plus new features not enough of an enhancment over Tiger that you could over look the scroll bars?
I ask again, is this your first major update?
--
My own take on the scroll bars is that I like them where they are, and the colour that they are, in a sea of grey I know exactly where to go looking.
Microsoft was born because Gates & co. were business savvy and were in the right place at the right time. Their products have never been very good: it's not like all of the sudden, MS apps started to stink. While they have lots of business savvy, they have never been able to correctly manage a software development project. Apple has something like 6% marketshare. Making MS comparisons is just plain stupid, unless you're talking about the iPod. Of course, the iPod has always been good, and seems to continue to improve ahead of the market, so the comparison isn't particularly valid there, either.
You have just proven my point. Which is that with Leopard, Apple has sunken to the "good enough" motto that has made Microsoft so great and savvy in your opinion. And making Ms comparison is pretty smart actually. They are both software companies, they both make OS's, they both make office products, they both make..., well you get the picture by now. And I don't beleive I have ever mentioned the iPod in this thread, so try to keep up will you?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Splinemodel
Yes, many people can't deal with change, and hence fight against it. It's too bad for you that change is the only certainty in the universe.
Well, I actually like change. When it is for the better. Most people do. It's about time you woke up to that little reality.
The fight is not against change. If you are paying attention to this thread and not suffering from attention deficit disorder, you would realize this thread is not against change, it is against sloppiness and a lack of what was promised. And if you think the ADD reference is harsh, remember it was you who took to to attacking my supposed adversity to "change" and calling my comparisons "just plain stupid." And actually your arguments don't stand up too well. But it is clear that you have not been paying attention. So um, thanks for playing!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Splinemodel
Yes, it's beyond anal retention: it's full blown obsessive-compulsive disorder. And it is a valid argument, since it's hinged on the "you can't please all the people all the time" axiom. Crying bloody-murder because Apple is spending resources on more pivotal features instead of satisfying an impossibly small market sector -- now that's childish.
Actually, it is not even close. Obsessive compulsive disorder is what you have when you read a thread pointing out obvious inconsistencies with something as important as a desktop GUI and then feel the need to exaggerate what you believe the motives behind it are, followed by personal attacks in obvious emotional distress because you are dealing with your own fear that Apple may have actually slipped up a bit and you feel the need to alleviate that fear.
And no it is not a valid argument. The GUI is not finished. Simple as that. No one is being anal retentive at a fine restaurant by asking for a new dish and not a new dish mixed with leftovers, eh? That would not quite sit well. That is what we have with Leopard. Not quite what you want to make it out to be. Simply calling it like it is.
Everyone knows you cannot please all people all the time. this is not even about that. It is about simply finishing the job of making a brand new, heavily invested in Macintosh operating system from a company known for design savvy and attention to detail. It is quite simply actually. And yes, it is a problem if they ship it this way. Sure, it will be "good enough" just like your hero Microsoft likes to do, however, it is not typical of Apple, nor is it what we have come to expect of them. They can and they should do better. Look at Aperture and how perfect the UI comes together. Now look at leopard. End of story. They can make it great.
My real surprise at this thread is that you were SO overboard with your praise for Leopard earlier in the year, didn't you have leopard derived URLs for sale at one point? Why when you were so remarkably in favour of Leopard 8 months ago, would this one comparatively small thing irk you so much that you feel outraged enough to BOYCOTT the new OS altogether? Are the 300 plus new features not enough of an enhancment over Tiger that you could over look the scroll bars?
I ask again, is this your first major update?
I don't really think he wants to boycott Leopard even though it is the title of this thread. He is simply pointing out an obvious lack of consistency in the UI. I like the look of Aqua too, but as it is currently. In Leopard, it looks like a mishmash of 2 ideas and not quite finished. Maybe some of this is on purpose. But what will never make sense is that some apps now have the iTunes bars and some don't. And there is no rhyme or reason. This is just simply and obvious error or they just need to "ship the thing."
I think he may have been praising Leopard like I was as well because there was time to overhaul the Ui and we were all waiting for the "top secret features" and just about everyone thought it would be a new UI. Instead, we have an old, used, iTunes UI with Aqua mixed in and iTunes elements in some, but not all apps.
Just because someone can point this out doesn't mean they think they are better than Apple or that they need to work there. It is simply pointing out a mistake and this is a forum where that is allowed and happens often.
Apple will be fine. Leopard will sell. But until they fix this issue, it will still be slightly unfinished.
that is the problem. The iTunes look is now super OLD! We have had it for a long time now and just taking this old theme and making it appear all over leopard is not an innovative way of doing things and it looks a bit dated to be honest. I think it is still classy, but not all that Apple can come up with. That and the idea that they would go with that theme throughout. It looks like they missed the boat. The aqua scrollbars are still in, but in a couple iLife apps they are like the iTunes scrollbars. Just tacky. and inconsistent, which was why they went with the whole underwhelming iTunes theme to begin with - to be consistent.
I'm torn as I am excited about the under the hood features, but truthfully I am kinda bummed about the GUI issues.
Yeah, I'm a bit surprised they have missed the boat. When it comes to making appealing interfaces from an aesthetic perspective, Apple excels. Looking at what they did with the iPhone and iPod touch, heck, even the Classic and Nano are a whole lot more pleasing to use. The whole subdued look of iTunes is looking a bit on the bland side. And we both know that Apple can come up with a lot better (because they have).
We'll see how it looks when Leopard is out, funnily enough they have not shown iTunes on Leopard recently, which leads me to think they may have an update planned for Friday... maybe they'll just revert it back to the 'jellybeans'. While not as big an issue as some are making out, it is something I will notice - a minor annoyance. Not so much as my brushed metal/pinstripe/aluminium combo I've got going on at the moment though.
You have just proven my point. Which is that with Leopard, Apple has sunken to the "good enough" motto that has made Microsoft so great and savvy in your opinion. .
You never had a point. Leopard isn't out yet. You're basing your entire thesis on a singular concept: that relatively benign UI inconsistencies make Leopard unworthy. For one, you haven't seen the rest. For two, nobody has ever released a version of software that needed no improvement. Apple is no exception. I assume you don't remember 10.0.
There's a group of you on AI who seem to think Apple is the God who led the hebrews out of Egypt, parting the Red Sea for them, dropping manna from heaven, etc. No: Apple is just a bunch of guys in Silicon Valley trying to turn a profit by being usability leaders. They can't make every pixel perfect or deliver a line of machines custom-tailored to your individual desires. They live in the same world as the rest of us. Have they lost the edge? By my judgement, not even close. If inconsistent UI is such a dreadful problem, I suggest you take it up with them, while the rest of us enjoy the overall niceness of Leopard.
If Apple is indeed on a train ride straight to hell -- as you are so concerned about based on a single observation of a tiny fraction of the product -- then get off your ass and do something about it. If it's such a pandemic, then there's room for someone to profit from a solution. Be that guy instead of the disenfranchised idol worshipper.
Does anyone else notice that the posts in this thread are predominately made by only a few users? Stop this ridiculous bickering. It seems Splinemodel is the only one who is sane. It's not even out yet and you're already complaining. You should probably see a psychiatrist if these "jelly beans" really get on your nerves enough to make you rip your hair out. Or maybe you can just realize you have OCD.
Comments
It makes me wonder if later on in the life of the Leopard, they'll be mixing even newer themes (e.g. when they release a new iLife/iWork) in with the current (iTunes) look. Consistency is pretty important to me, and looking at the thread, quite a few users here if only Apple would hear us
But I'm not waiting until they fix it... already pre-ordered my copy of Leopard
I wonder though why they left the Aqua elements there while a replacement should be trivial from a programmatic point of view.
Here are three possible reasons:
1. They actually had analysts think about it, and decided to leave it as is for temporal UI consistency (within that app)
2. They simply didn't have the time. Any change to commercial software is not as simple as the programmatic change. It then must go through QA, etc.
3. first 2, then 1, then some product manager realized that no one would care enough to prevent them from buying the product, and that, as they say, was that.
Perhaps, also, I'm not alone in thinking that the proposed UI's are lame, and remind me of some of the chintsey window managers in KDE or Gnome.
Perhaps, also, I'm not alone in thinking that the proposed UI's are lame, and remind me of some of the chintsey window managers in KDE or Gnome.
... Above all, I'd much prefer a consistent look across the OS - whichever interface, just take one and stick with it Apple! Mail has pinstripes, Finder and Safari have brushed metal, and iTunes has the new look...
that is the problem. The iTunes look is now super OLD! We have had it for a long time now and just taking this old theme and making it appear all over leopard is not an innovative way of doing things and it looks a bit dated to be honest. I think it is still classy, but not all that Apple can come up with. That and the idea that they would go with that theme throughout. It looks like they missed the boat. The aqua scrollbars are still in, but in a couple iLife apps they are like the iTunes scrollbars. Just tacky. and inconsistent, which was why they went with the whole underwhelming iTunes theme to begin with - to be consistent.
I'm torn as I am excited about the under the hood features, but truthfully I am kinda bummed oabout the GUI issues.
If it's such a problem, then don't buy a mac, or at least write Apple a letter about it. I think we've found out from this thread that very few people actually care at all, and that certainly no one cares enough to do anything about it.
Furthermore, Apple's job is to sell computers and high tech items. "Delivering a consistent UI" is of absolutely no importance unless it affects their ability to sell computers and high tech items. Since the complaints here bemoan details which are "in the noise," it's almost certain that the financial impact of these GUI travesties is also "in the noise."
And that is how Microsoft was born. And as Apple took them to task in the early to mid 2000's by saying "good enough" is not good enough.
Apple needs to get back to what got them on the upswing to begin with. Make it special.
Not mechanically getting in the way of doing work is the measuring stick for UI success. Eye candy wiether that means it is there or purposefully not there is just decoration. The best UIs are just there and allow you to ignore them after a period of initial familiarity. I think Aqua and the related OS X widgets are for all intents and purposes at the ignorable level for all but the most nitpicking users. Nothing to be done which will satisfy all of them.
Anal retentive consistency is VASTLY overrated. Do interface element appearances get in the way of actually doing work? No, with the caveat that you can turn blue Aqua to grey Aqua if you do color critical work. Actually some degree of inconsistency, within certain bounds, is a good cue for partitioning tasks or working metaphors.
Not mechanically getting in the way of doing work is the measuring stick for UI success. Eye candy wiether that means it is there or purposefully not there is just decoration. The best UIs are just there and allow you to ignore them after a period of initial familiarity. I think Aqua and the related OS X widgets are for all intents and purposes at the ignorable level for all but the most nitpicking users. Nothing to be done which will satisfy all of them.
Undermining the integrity of the argument by calling such cares anal retentive is really no counter argument at all. Only childish. True anal retentiveness would be overly fussy over much smaller matters. This is completely obvious.
Does user interface consistency issues get in the way of work? The answer is obvious. However, we are not just talking "Good enough" Microsoft style, are we. This is Apple. This is a brand new OS and UI consistency is one of the main things it is touted for bringing to the table. It fails there. That is a big deal. This is a company that fusses over trying designing a computer with no visible screw for crying out loud. this is a company that won't use certain components to maintain a certain thinness of its products.
Some degree of inconsistency so long as it is purposed, would be fine. ala brushed metal vs gradient in Tiger. Not going to the iTunes theme, but neglecting to go all the way, promising a certain look with iLife, but then failing to put the proper polish in with the rest of the OS / apps.
When designers work on the look of something, they are paid to get it right. In this case, something is amiss. Apple seems so devoted to the iPhone right now that it looks great, but the new OS is looking somewhat like a beta. It looks like a mashup of two ideas and not a proper UI design.
Now, I said I am excited about the under the hood improvements and that is true. I will probably replace my Powerbook with a Macbook Pro right after Leopard comes out so that I can have that new OS (and an intel mac - still can't believe my two year old purchase is obsolete already) ASAP. However, I will hold out hope that point releases fix the UI inconsistencies along with the inevitable bugs.
To sum up, the UI should be consistent as it is actually a major selling point and it is apple and it is a new OS. Let's just be honest here, it won't break the purchase decision for many and it won't affect performance or workflow, but it does look not quite right and it seems amateurish. You have to agree that Apple looked like they were completing the look when you saw iLife 08. That is what they should have done.
That's no excuse not to fix it.
But it's not broke.
All I expect it to do is sit on top of UNIX. I've used Openwin, Motif, CDE, KDE and GNOME and now that OS X comes with virtual desktops, it's all good.
All an OS does is run my apps.
But it's not broke.
You're right. It's just not finished.
Wow, Someone is actualy going to boycot leopard because of that... It'll be years before you see an OS update buddy. Good luck with that.
I am afraid he will not need luck. Tiger will by no means have the fate of 10.0-10.1 that were quickly forgotten, because so many features were missing. Tiger will be supported for a long time with regular security updates and everything working today with it, will still work for at least three years from now.
In the beginning of this decade we had no other option but to update. With Mac OS X slowly maturing, this has changed, for the better or the worst.
Undermining the integrity of the argument by calling such cares anal retentive is really no counter argument at all. Only childish. True anal retentiveness would be overly fussy over much smaller matters. This is completely obvious.
Does user interface consistency issues get in the way of work? The answer is obvious. However, we are not just talking "Good enough" Microsoft style, are we. This is Apple. This is a brand new OS and UI consistency is one of the main things it is touted for bringing to the table. It fails there. That is a big deal. This is a company that fusses over trying designing a computer with no visible screw for crying out loud. this is a company that won't use certain components to maintain a certain thinness of its products.
Some degree of inconsistency so long as it is purposed, would be fine. ala brushed metal vs gradient in Tiger. Not going to the iTunes theme, but neglecting to go all the way, promising a certain look with iLife, but then failing to put the proper polish in with the rest of the OS / apps.
When designers work on the look of something, they are paid to get it right. In this case, something is amiss. Apple seems so devoted to the iPhone right now that it looks great, but the new OS is looking somewhat like a beta. It looks like a mashup of two ideas and not a proper UI design.
Now, I said I am excited about the under the hood improvements and that is true. I will probably replace my Powerbook with a Macbook Pro right after Leopard comes out so that I can have that new OS (and an intel mac - still can't believe my two year old purchase is obsolete already) ASAP. However, I will hold out hope that point releases fix the UI inconsistencies along with the inevitable bugs.
To sum up, the UI should be consistent as it is actually a major selling point and it is apple and it is a new OS. Let's just be honest here, it won't break the purchase decision for many and it won't affect performance or workflow, but it does look not quite right and it seems amateurish. You have to agree that Apple looked like they were completing the look when you saw iLife 08. That is what they should have done.
I just wanted to say you are right on with this. I can't believe Apple let the GUI look the way it did.
I was so disappointed. It could have been so much better. I've been hacking OS X's GUI to look the way I have wanted to since before the Public Betas.
The first version of Aqua was consistent, but hard on the eyes. I made a few old themes (Simple Aqua, Sosumi) to make it easier on the eyes.
Apple has finally gotten rid of Brushed Metal, and the ugly pinstripes, but it's keeping about 10% of it's other Aqua crapness.
Not only should the bars look like iTunes's new ones, the stoplights need to go. So do the other Aqua elements. They look so dated.
It would be neat if we could have scroll bars like iTunes and some of the other iApps and be able to choose colors like we did in OS 9.
Now there's an idea.
I just wanted to say you are right on with this. I can't believe Apple let the GUI look the way it did.
I was so disappointed. It could have been so much better. I've been hacking OS X's GUI to look the way I have wanted to since before the Public Betas.
The first version of Aqua was consistent, but hard on the eyes. I made a few old themes (Simple Aqua, Sosumi) to make it easier on the eyes.
Apple has finally gotten rid of Brushed Metal, and the ugly pinstripes, but it's keeping about 10% of it's other Aqua crapness.
Not only should the bars look like iTunes's new ones, the stoplights need to go. So do the other Aqua elements. They look so dated.
It would be neat if we could have scroll bars like iTunes and some of the other iApps and be able to choose colors like we did in OS 9.
Now there's an idea.
Excellent thoughts. It is good to know that not everyone thinks it is OK to let the sparkling new MAC OS look less than.
Microsoft poured its resources into Vista and while it is not in the totally useable stage, it does look like it is supposed to.
Leopard is awesome as far as features go and it is light years ahead of Vista. However, in one category that Apple usually dominates, Leopard falls flat. There are only a few minor tweaks that could really turn this around. It would even be better to delay the thing a month or two. My notebook has been built with unbelievable attention to detail. From the companents, performance, reliability and looks, it always leaves people impressed. Now, it will do so until it is fired up. Not cool.
I have never used themes on my Mac and never intend to, but the themes that you created are very good. just looked them up.
It would be nice if Apple made the whole OS look like Aperture. That is a UI with some class and time put into to it. Very nice. Everything looks just right and super classy. I cannot believe how
Apple can make a UI like Aperture and not either make one as good or better for the next gen OS. C'mon! Even the buttons look like the natural progression of Aqua that fits perfectly with a gradient metal theme.
And that is how Microsoft was born.
Microsoft was born because Gates & co. were business savvy and were in the right place at the right time. Their products have never been very good: it's not like all of the sudden, MS apps started to stink. While they have lots of business savvy, they have never been able to correctly manage a software development project. Apple has something like 6% marketshare. Making MS comparisons is just plain stupid, unless you're talking about the iPod. Of course, the iPod has always been good, and seems to continue to improve ahead of the market, so the comparison isn't particularly valid there, either.
Yes, many people can't deal with change, and hence fight against it. It's too bad for you that change is the only certainty in the universe.
Undermining the integrity of the argument by calling such cares anal retentive is really no counter argument at all. Only childish. True anal retentiveness would be overly fussy over much smaller matters. This is completely obvious.
Yes, it's beyond anal retention: it's full blown obsessive-compulsive disorder. And it is a valid argument, since it's hinged on the "you can't please all the people all the time" axiom. Crying bloody-murder because Apple is spending resources on more pivotal features instead of satisfying an impossibly small market sector -- now that's childish.
Good old Walter is back.
I am indeed
Excuse me? I have been talking about the mock-up for weeks, and I said I was going to use all elements from iTunes, which I did. He showed me his mock-up and I merely said; "no, more along these lines". The mock-ups are different, it doesn't take a genius to work that out. I'd be happy if someone took my version and said; "how about this?", and did something different.
Thats the problem though, you don't actually seem to take criticism all that well, you give exceptionally short replies and ignore or dismiss comment that isn't exactly inline with your thinking. (as will likely be noted by your 2 word or so reply to this post)
Also as Vinea remarked, you start a new thread, it seems primarily to get your own name at the top of the thread. One wonders if this is just to look good when you Digg it, or look prolific, or both? not that, that in itself is a crime, just irritating.
It's not the first time I have said that, by any means at all. As I said I used Apple's own buttons to make the mock-up. These's buttons are already present in iTunes.
Not a sneaky move at all, Flickr's stuff tends to get more diggs, and I want Apple to here us (Mac users).
Look if you are SO convinced that you have these fantastically great ideas that would send Apple to a 20%(or more) OS share then PLEASE apply for a job with them.
Is there anything actually stopping you from applying to Apple Ireland?
REALLY get in there, even if its only on the ground floor, it's a start isn't it.
Better yet, if you are so sure of your convictions go apply to Cupertino get your CV over to them, I'm sure with your skill and ambition, plus credentials, working knowledge of OSX, not to mention the obvious experience you have in UI design they would snap you up in an instant.
Lets face it, crying about what Apple do or do not include on their OS in a message board is hardly going to change the world, is it?
So get out there and get a job with Apple.
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My real surprise at this thread is that you were SO overboard with your praise for Leopard earlier in the year, didn't you have leopard derived URLs for sale at one point? Why when you were so remarkably in favour of Leopard 8 months ago, would this one comparatively small thing irk you so much that you feel outraged enough to BOYCOTT the new OS altogether? Are the 300 plus new features not enough of an enhancment over Tiger that you could over look the scroll bars?
I ask again, is this your first major update?
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My own take on the scroll bars is that I like them where they are, and the colour that they are, in a sea of grey I know exactly where to go looking.
Microsoft was born because Gates & co. were business savvy and were in the right place at the right time. Their products have never been very good: it's not like all of the sudden, MS apps started to stink. While they have lots of business savvy, they have never been able to correctly manage a software development project. Apple has something like 6% marketshare. Making MS comparisons is just plain stupid, unless you're talking about the iPod. Of course, the iPod has always been good, and seems to continue to improve ahead of the market, so the comparison isn't particularly valid there, either.
You have just proven my point. Which is that with Leopard, Apple has sunken to the "good enough" motto that has made Microsoft so great and savvy in your opinion. And making Ms comparison is pretty smart actually. They are both software companies, they both make OS's, they both make office products, they both make..., well you get the picture by now. And I don't beleive I have ever mentioned the iPod in this thread, so try to keep up will you?
Yes, many people can't deal with change, and hence fight against it. It's too bad for you that change is the only certainty in the universe.
Well, I actually like change. When it is for the better. Most people do. It's about time you woke up to that little reality.
The fight is not against change. If you are paying attention to this thread and not suffering from attention deficit disorder, you would realize this thread is not against change, it is against sloppiness and a lack of what was promised. And if you think the ADD reference is harsh, remember it was you who took to to attacking my supposed adversity to "change" and calling my comparisons "just plain stupid." And actually your arguments don't stand up too well. But it is clear that you have not been paying attention. So um, thanks for playing!
Yes, it's beyond anal retention: it's full blown obsessive-compulsive disorder. And it is a valid argument, since it's hinged on the "you can't please all the people all the time" axiom. Crying bloody-murder because Apple is spending resources on more pivotal features instead of satisfying an impossibly small market sector -- now that's childish.
Actually, it is not even close. Obsessive compulsive disorder is what you have when you read a thread pointing out obvious inconsistencies with something as important as a desktop GUI and then feel the need to exaggerate what you believe the motives behind it are, followed by personal attacks in obvious emotional distress because you are dealing with your own fear that Apple may have actually slipped up a bit and you feel the need to alleviate that fear.
And no it is not a valid argument. The GUI is not finished. Simple as that. No one is being anal retentive at a fine restaurant by asking for a new dish and not a new dish mixed with leftovers, eh? That would not quite sit well. That is what we have with Leopard. Not quite what you want to make it out to be. Simply calling it like it is.
Everyone knows you cannot please all people all the time. this is not even about that. It is about simply finishing the job of making a brand new, heavily invested in Macintosh operating system from a company known for design savvy and attention to detail. It is quite simply actually. And yes, it is a problem if they ship it this way. Sure, it will be "good enough" just like your hero Microsoft likes to do, however, it is not typical of Apple, nor is it what we have come to expect of them. They can and they should do better. Look at Aperture and how perfect the UI comes together. Now look at leopard. End of story. They can make it great.
My real surprise at this thread is that you were SO overboard with your praise for Leopard earlier in the year, didn't you have leopard derived URLs for sale at one point? Why when you were so remarkably in favour of Leopard 8 months ago, would this one comparatively small thing irk you so much that you feel outraged enough to BOYCOTT the new OS altogether? Are the 300 plus new features not enough of an enhancment over Tiger that you could over look the scroll bars?
I ask again, is this your first major update?
I don't really think he wants to boycott Leopard even though it is the title of this thread. He is simply pointing out an obvious lack of consistency in the UI. I like the look of Aqua too, but as it is currently. In Leopard, it looks like a mishmash of 2 ideas and not quite finished. Maybe some of this is on purpose. But what will never make sense is that some apps now have the iTunes bars and some don't. And there is no rhyme or reason. This is just simply and obvious error or they just need to "ship the thing."
I think he may have been praising Leopard like I was as well because there was time to overhaul the Ui and we were all waiting for the "top secret features" and just about everyone thought it would be a new UI. Instead, we have an old, used, iTunes UI with Aqua mixed in and iTunes elements in some, but not all apps.
Just because someone can point this out doesn't mean they think they are better than Apple or that they need to work there. It is simply pointing out a mistake and this is a forum where that is allowed and happens often.
Apple will be fine. Leopard will sell. But until they fix this issue, it will still be slightly unfinished.
that is the problem. The iTunes look is now super OLD! We have had it for a long time now and just taking this old theme and making it appear all over leopard is not an innovative way of doing things and it looks a bit dated to be honest. I think it is still classy, but not all that Apple can come up with. That and the idea that they would go with that theme throughout. It looks like they missed the boat. The aqua scrollbars are still in, but in a couple iLife apps they are like the iTunes scrollbars. Just tacky. and inconsistent, which was why they went with the whole underwhelming iTunes theme to begin with - to be consistent.
I'm torn as I am excited about the under the hood features, but truthfully I am kinda bummed about the GUI issues.
Yeah, I'm a bit surprised they have missed the boat. When it comes to making appealing interfaces from an aesthetic perspective, Apple excels. Looking at what they did with the iPhone and iPod touch, heck, even the Classic and Nano are a whole lot more pleasing to use. The whole subdued look of iTunes is looking a bit on the bland side. And we both know that Apple can come up with a lot better (because they have).
We'll see how it looks when Leopard is out, funnily enough they have not shown iTunes on Leopard recently, which leads me to think they may have an update planned for Friday... maybe they'll just revert it back to the 'jellybeans'. While not as big an issue as some are making out, it is something I will notice - a minor annoyance. Not so much as my brushed metal/pinstripe/aluminium combo I've got going on at the moment though.
You have just proven my point. Which is that with Leopard, Apple has sunken to the "good enough" motto that has made Microsoft so great and savvy in your opinion. .
You never had a point. Leopard isn't out yet. You're basing your entire thesis on a singular concept: that relatively benign UI inconsistencies make Leopard unworthy. For one, you haven't seen the rest. For two, nobody has ever released a version of software that needed no improvement. Apple is no exception. I assume you don't remember 10.0.
There's a group of you on AI who seem to think Apple is the God who led the hebrews out of Egypt, parting the Red Sea for them, dropping manna from heaven, etc. No: Apple is just a bunch of guys in Silicon Valley trying to turn a profit by being usability leaders. They can't make every pixel perfect or deliver a line of machines custom-tailored to your individual desires. They live in the same world as the rest of us. Have they lost the edge? By my judgement, not even close. If inconsistent UI is such a dreadful problem, I suggest you take it up with them, while the rest of us enjoy the overall niceness of Leopard.
If Apple is indeed on a train ride straight to hell -- as you are so concerned about based on a single observation of a tiny fraction of the product -- then get off your ass and do something about it. If it's such a pandemic, then there's room for someone to profit from a solution. Be that guy instead of the disenfranchised idol worshipper.