Hey Marz, I'm a BD supporter and don't agree with your contention about it being all over if Warner goes Blu exclusive. Universal and Paramount may decide that it makes sense financially to split HD's 25 - 35% share of the HDM market between themselves rather than have to compete against the rest of the studios in BD.
Warner is in an enviable position right now probably entertaining some very lucrative bids to go one way or the other or even to stay neutral. If Paramount's decision was worth $150M, how much do you think Warner will be able to squeeze out of this from someone?
Relax OldCodger, I was joking with the picture and about the "neutral" comment. Anyhow, so you really think Universal and Paramount will try to hold on less than 20% of the market which will assuredly dwindle to less than 10% as more people realize they can get 6 out of 8 studios movies from 1 format? HD DVD has roughly 35% share now with three studios. Without Warner, this will more than likely go to about 20% or below.
And you somehow think other studios won't fall in line as they see the other format grow exponentially in install base while the other flounders?
I say I have to respectfully disagree with you on this one.
Why do you keep repeating this retarded Microsoft FUD?
Microsoft isn't the company that is betting the farm on next-gen movie downloads. That company is Apple.
Microsoft is simply interested in using downloads to help sales of its Xbox, while Apple needs that market more to sustain its iPod domination, along with their revised AppleTV strategy.
You simply do not know what you are talking about.
I don't?...I'm spreading Microsoft FUD am I?...no, it is you who doesn't know what you are talking about...
According to Microsoft?s program manager for Media Entertainment Convergence, Richard Doherty, who spoke recently at the annual Digital Hollywood conference in California, both disc formats will be obsolete in five to ten years' time.
The future is fast broadband and downloads. In fact, "At Microsoft, we'd rather HD wasn't on a disc," he said.
...This will be the last optical generation, if it survives," he concluded.
and straight from the horses mouth, Bill Gates...
Quote:
?Understand that this is the last physical format there will ever be. Everything's going to be streamed directly or on a hard disk. So, in this way, it's even unclear how much this one counts."
But I'm sure there are other reasons why Microsoft chose HD DVD and the rest of the entire in industry chose Blu-ray.
Hey Marz, I'm a BD supporter and don't agree with your contention about it being all over if Warner goes Blu exclusive. Universal and Paramount may decide that it makes sense financially to split HD's 25 - 35% share of the HDM market between themselves rather than have to compete against the rest of the studios in BD.
Warner is in an enviable position right now probably entertaining some very lucrative bids to go one way or the other or even to stay neutral. If Paramount's decision was worth $150M, how much do you think Warner will be able to squeeze out of this from someone?
I wonder what is the point of agreeing/disagreeing with someone's fantasy?
It is not going to happen. The day PS3 beats Wii in sales will be the day PS3 will help win the HDM format war.
And you somehow think other studios won't fall in line as they see the other format grow exponentially in install base while the other flounders?
I say I have to respectfully disagree with you on this one.
That will most certainly happen... if one format or the other actually sees exponential growth. I've been following this thread for quite awhile. Occasionally I skip over a page or two if I've fallen behind so I could've missed some important facts. However, off the top of my head, it seems to me that the US Blu-ray install base has floated around the 3 million mark since a few months after the PS3 came out.
But I'm sure there are other reasons why Microsoft chose HD DVD and the rest of the entire in industry chose Blu-ray.
Unless the "last physical format" he's talking about is plain ol' DVD, those comments don't support your claims. And he's right; HD DVD or Blu-Ray will be the last physical format, but we still need them in the interim if we are to enjoy high-definition movies and games for the next 10 years.
Looks like B1G1 deal at amazon is really making people spend money on HDM. The HD-DVD current selections are not that great, but the cheaper prices are making it worth a purchase. If amazon had offered B1G1 on some decent HDM titles, it would really have taken off. But the long term indication is that the HDM prices have to settle down to SD-DVD level for HDM's to be a prefered choice over SD-DVD, since lower prices seem to be the real catalyst to HDM adoption.
Anyway for the time being, B1G1 deal is a great opportunity for HDM supporters to build up thier HDM library.
This holday season have already been great for my HDM hobby.
However, off the top of my head, it seems to me that the US Blu-ray install base has floated around the 3 million mark since a few months after the PS3 came out.
Actually.... that was what Sony projected earlier this year, but it recently passed 3 million mark about a month ago, including 2.5 million PS3 + 400K Standalones.
ah thanks. I must be remembering projections as actual numbers.
3 million that's about the population of Chicago. Not bad.
Yup... that's alot of units. But the majority of the PS3 owners use the hardware only as a game console. Therefore, the actually installed base does not equal to user base as a Blu-Ray HDM application. As you know, all the PS3 games also come on Blu-Ray optical disc.
Oh, I forgot, the newer PS3 packages include Blu-Ray movie and would get limited Blu-Ray HDM play time if the user decides to watch their free Blu-Ray movie.
Unless the "last physical format" he's talking about is plain ol' DVD, those comments don't support your claims. And he's right; HD DVD or Blu-Ray will be the last physical format, but we still need them in the interim if we are to enjoy high-definition movies and games for the next 10 years.
Corey, yes it does. Read it again. This time in its entirety.
I?m going to let you in on a little secret. Gamers like great video, but also great audio too.
That?s right, they have more multi-channel home audio rigs and HDTVs than most CE manufacturers or game developers realize.
Discussions about game rooms and the video game industry in general are not new. Quite the contrary, as the CEA and the editors of CE Pro have been discussing the importance of the $40 billion video games business, as well as their relation to the professional dealer and installer market, for quite some time.
However, until recently, there has been a lack of understanding of how important multi-channel sound, cable connections and HD video are to the average console player.
Earlier this year, Nielsen Research Group (NRG), in partnership with THX Games Director Mark Tuffy and the THX marketing team, set out to learn more about gamer habits.
Several hundred individuals, divided among Xbox 360, Wii and Playstation 3 owners, participated in the study across 20 top U.S. markets.
The criteria was simple: participants had to be at least 18 years old, own a major game console and play at least one hour per week.
...Beyond Gaming:
- 51% of PS3 users watch movies on their consoles, compared to 47% of Xbox 360 users.
- 36% of console owners say home entertainment options are the reasons for a console purchase.
- 54% of Xbox 360 consoles are located in the living room or den, compared to 55% of Wii and 44% of PS3s.
...The Nielsen study revealed that more than 54 percent of PS3 and 48 percent of Xbox 360 consoles are currently connected to multi-channel (5.1 or greater), home theater systems.
In fact, more gaming consoles are now connected to surround sound systems than traditional stereo television speakers. This indicates that surround sound has grown in importance among the gaming community and more and more console owners are making the jump to multi-channel systems.
Who are the early adopters? The research shows that PS3 owners are the first to embrace multi-channel audio systems.
PS3 owners tend to be early adopters of many new technologies, followed closely by Xbox 360 owners.
PS3 Owners Drive Adoption
- Only 27% of PS3s are connected to just TV speakers.
- 30% of PS3 owners have at least a 5.1 set-up; 24% have jumped to 7.1.
- 73% PS3 owners who do not currently have a multi-channel system indicated they would be likely to upgrade to a multi-channel set-up.
...The Nielsen data shows that PS3 owners are the most connected to HD displays, followed closely by Xbox 360 and Wii owners. Across all consoles owners, LCD is the HD display technology of choice, followed by plasma display and rear projection TVs...
The Numbers Game
What do all these numbers mean?
The console gamer represents a massive opportunity for all CE manufacturers, dealers and installers. In fact, gamers could be the next generation of audiophiles, replacing the aging vinyl and the original Star Wars crowd.
They could be the driving force behind the move to 7.1 and beyond.
The challenge for the CE industry is getting gamers to realize the impact of high quality home audio and video gear on their overall gaming experience.
Manufacturers, installers and dealers alike will need to create a step-up market from desktop systems and HTiBs to high-end in-walls and feature-rich AVRs as gaming consoles continue to make their way into living rooms.
But, before any of this can happen, the industry must get a better understanding of who and what they are dealing with.
Don?t make generalizations about gamers. Do the research. Understand their behavior.
Realize that video game consoles are not just another component in the rack, but rather a hub for all entertainment content.
I think this gives us a good idea as to how many users of the PS3 watch movies...
Doing the math... 51% of roughly 2,000,000 PS3 owners watching Blu-rays + 400,000 standalones = 1,420,000 Blu-ray watchers vs 750,000 HD-DVD watchers...
Look familiar? 1.89:1 and this is only in the US. The picture is worse for HD DVD internationally.
I think this gives us a good idea as to how many users of the PS3 watch movies...
Doing the math... 51% of roughly 2,000,000 PS3 owners watching Blu-rays + 400,000 standalones = 1,420,000 Blu-ray watchers vs 750,000 HD-DVD watchers...
Look familiar? 1.89:1 and this is only in the US. The picture is worse for HD DVD internationally.
Well.. If I do your math on your stats....
47% of 9 million xbox360 owners = about 4+ million already in the states.... does it make sense?
The real question is how many of the 51% watch Blu-Ray HDM vs. SD-DVD and what would be the true ratio of that from the total PS3 owners including 18 yrs old and under.
Bad source and bad stats...... not a credible study at all. I'm sure Sony would dream of such data to be true and would endorse spreading such news with every penny.
I just bought my PS3, and I'm already building a BR collection. Actually I know more people that bought it as a BR player than I do as a game system. Although I know many 30 somethings and above.
... Actually I know more people that bought it as a BR player than I do as a game system...
Funny you mention that... I noticed in an ad this weekend that a Sony brand stand-alone BluRay player was being sold for $399. All it will do is play movies ... why would anyone buy that unit when, for the SAME PRICE, they can buy a PS3 that is infinitely more functional? (OK, so "infinitely" might be just a bit of an exaggeration.)
That's a bit like trying to sell a basic Subaru Impreza for the same price as a WRX-STi ... who's gonna opt for the less capable version? (And yes, I know I'm preaching to the choir on this forum.)
Corey, yes it does. Read it again. This time in its entirety.
Marz, wouldn't it make more sense to have a profitable business plan in place for the next 5-10 years until downloadable HD movies can become a reality, instead of spending millions simply to (allegedly) confuse the consumer and stall the adoption of HDM? Yes, yes it would. Won't the HDM players reach $99 pricetags within 1-2 years time, essentially replacing regular DVD players in all stores and leaving the consumer no choice but to go home with an HDM player whether they wanted one or not? Yes, yes they will. Since Sony is Microsoft's number one competitor in the console realm, and since Sony banked their entire share of the console market on forcing the adoption of their next video format, wouldn't it be in Microsoft's best interest NOT to aid Sony in achieving their goals? HD DVD being the anti-Sony is reason enough for Microsoft to genuinely support and bolster HD DVD. And hell, what if HD DVD won? Then what? Is Microsoft going to take everyone's players away and make them download movies on their computers instead?
Microsoft supporting Blu-Ray would be like Apple including Windows as their default OS. It's got nothing to do with delaying HDM adoption until Microsoft "perfects" movie downloads. Lord knows Microsoft couldn't perfect anything whether they had 5 or 5,000 years. The only company who should have a vested interest in delaying HDM adoption for internet-delivered high definition is Apple. You know, that company whose audio/video devices and software can actually be used by normal people.
Next you're going to try and tell me Windows Vista is just a half-hearted ploy by Microsoft to stall the adoption of Windows XP until they perfect this other super-awesome operating system they really want people to buy instead.
I just bought my PS3, and I'm already building a BR collection. Actually I know more people that bought it as a BR player than I do as a game system. Although I know many 30 somethings and above.
i'm right there with you man!
i have 1 PS3 game and am going to use it primarily for blu-ray.
on the other hand i've got a wii with a ton of games!
not to rain on anyones parade, but isn't physical media a dying bread anyway?
how long do you guys project until we see the majority of movies go download only?
not to rain on anyones parade, but isn't physical media a dying bread anyway?
I think movie rentals are definitely going the way of on-demand streaming or DRM'd download. Netflix is already experimenting with On-Demand movies for their subscribers that use Windows. They're a far cry from HD, but it's a start.
However, I think there will always be a market for physical media movies for purchase. I know that when I buy the Star Wars trilogy for the last time (if that ever happens) I want it to be on something that I can keep. I don't want to depend on a hard disk or a single device's memory. Whether it's a Blu-ray disc or a dedicated flash chip or something else doesn't matter. I want a physical possession to own.
Of course, if that physical media is so full of DRM that I can't play it without MS's permission in triplicate anyway then the point is sort of moot.
Comments
Hey Marz, I'm a BD supporter and don't agree with your contention about it being all over if Warner goes Blu exclusive. Universal and Paramount may decide that it makes sense financially to split HD's 25 - 35% share of the HDM market between themselves rather than have to compete against the rest of the studios in BD.
Warner is in an enviable position right now probably entertaining some very lucrative bids to go one way or the other or even to stay neutral. If Paramount's decision was worth $150M, how much do you think Warner will be able to squeeze out of this from someone?
Relax OldCodger, I was joking with the picture and about the "neutral" comment. Anyhow, so you really think Universal and Paramount will try to hold on less than 20% of the market which will assuredly dwindle to less than 10% as more people realize they can get 6 out of 8 studios movies from 1 format? HD DVD has roughly 35% share now with three studios. Without Warner, this will more than likely go to about 20% or below.
And you somehow think other studios won't fall in line as they see the other format grow exponentially in install base while the other flounders?
I say I have to respectfully disagree with you on this one.
Why do you keep repeating this retarded Microsoft FUD?
Microsoft isn't the company that is betting the farm on next-gen movie downloads. That company is Apple.
Microsoft is simply interested in using downloads to help sales of its Xbox, while Apple needs that market more to sustain its iPod domination, along with their revised AppleTV strategy.
You simply do not know what you are talking about.
I don't?...I'm spreading Microsoft FUD am I?...no, it is you who doesn't know what you are talking about...
http://www.hdtvuk.tv/2007/06/microsoft_predi.html
According to Microsoft?s program manager for Media Entertainment Convergence, Richard Doherty, who spoke recently at the annual Digital Hollywood conference in California, both disc formats will be obsolete in five to ten years' time.
The future is fast broadband and downloads. In fact, "At Microsoft, we'd rather HD wasn't on a disc," he said.
...This will be the last optical generation, if it survives," he concluded.
and straight from the horses mouth, Bill Gates...
?Understand that this is the last physical format there will ever be. Everything's going to be streamed directly or on a hard disk. So, in this way, it's even unclear how much this one counts."
But I'm sure there are other reasons why Microsoft chose HD DVD and the rest of the entire in industry chose Blu-ray.
Hey Marz, I'm a BD supporter and don't agree with your contention about it being all over if Warner goes Blu exclusive. Universal and Paramount may decide that it makes sense financially to split HD's 25 - 35% share of the HDM market between themselves rather than have to compete against the rest of the studios in BD.
Warner is in an enviable position right now probably entertaining some very lucrative bids to go one way or the other or even to stay neutral. If Paramount's decision was worth $150M, how much do you think Warner will be able to squeeze out of this from someone?
I wonder what is the point of agreeing/disagreeing with someone's fantasy?
It is not going to happen. The day PS3 beats Wii in sales will be the day PS3 will help win the HDM format war.
And you somehow think other studios won't fall in line as they see the other format grow exponentially in install base while the other flounders?
I say I have to respectfully disagree with you on this one.
That will most certainly happen... if one format or the other actually sees exponential growth. I've been following this thread for quite awhile. Occasionally I skip over a page or two if I've fallen behind so I could've missed some important facts. However, off the top of my head, it seems to me that the US Blu-ray install base has floated around the 3 million mark since a few months after the PS3 came out.
But I'm sure there are other reasons why Microsoft chose HD DVD and the rest of the entire in industry chose Blu-ray.
Unless the "last physical format" he's talking about is plain ol' DVD, those comments don't support your claims. And he's right; HD DVD or Blu-Ray will be the last physical format, but we still need them in the interim if we are to enjoy high-definition movies and games for the next 10 years.
Anyway for the time being, B1G1 deal is a great opportunity for HDM supporters to build up thier HDM library.
This holday season have already been great for my HDM hobby.
so.. which line is which?
haha...
Does it really matter?... Both HDM formats are doing quite well at amazon with B1G1 promotion deals from both formats.
But if you must know, the blue line represents Blu-Ray and the black line is for HD-DVD.
However, off the top of my head, it seems to me that the US Blu-ray install base has floated around the 3 million mark since a few months after the PS3 came out.
Actually.... that was what Sony projected earlier this year, but it recently passed 3 million mark about a month ago, including 2.5 million PS3 + 400K Standalones.
3 million that's about the population of Chicago. Not bad.
ah thanks. I must be remembering projections as actual numbers.
3 million that's about the population of Chicago. Not bad.
Yup... that's alot of units. But the majority of the PS3 owners use the hardware only as a game console. Therefore, the actually installed base does not equal to user base as a Blu-Ray HDM application. As you know, all the PS3 games also come on Blu-Ray optical disc.
Oh, I forgot, the newer PS3 packages include Blu-Ray movie and would get limited Blu-Ray HDM play time if the user decides to watch their free Blu-Ray movie.
Unless the "last physical format" he's talking about is plain ol' DVD, those comments don't support your claims. And he's right; HD DVD or Blu-Ray will be the last physical format, but we still need them in the interim if we are to enjoy high-definition movies and games for the next 10 years.
Corey, yes it does. Read it again. This time in its entirety.
Nielsen Research Group and THX find that gamers use surround sound systems, high-end video products.
http://www.cepro.com/article/gamers_...arch_shows/D1/
I?m going to let you in on a little secret. Gamers like great video, but also great audio too.
That?s right, they have more multi-channel home audio rigs and HDTVs than most CE manufacturers or game developers realize.
Discussions about game rooms and the video game industry in general are not new. Quite the contrary, as the CEA and the editors of CE Pro have been discussing the importance of the $40 billion video games business, as well as their relation to the professional dealer and installer market, for quite some time.
However, until recently, there has been a lack of understanding of how important multi-channel sound, cable connections and HD video are to the average console player.
Earlier this year, Nielsen Research Group (NRG), in partnership with THX Games Director Mark Tuffy and the THX marketing team, set out to learn more about gamer habits.
Several hundred individuals, divided among Xbox 360, Wii and Playstation 3 owners, participated in the study across 20 top U.S. markets.
The criteria was simple: participants had to be at least 18 years old, own a major game console and play at least one hour per week.
...Beyond Gaming:
- 51% of PS3 users watch movies on their consoles, compared to 47% of Xbox 360 users.
- 36% of console owners say home entertainment options are the reasons for a console purchase.
- 54% of Xbox 360 consoles are located in the living room or den, compared to 55% of Wii and 44% of PS3s.
...The Nielsen study revealed that more than 54 percent of PS3 and 48 percent of Xbox 360 consoles are currently connected to multi-channel (5.1 or greater), home theater systems.
In fact, more gaming consoles are now connected to surround sound systems than traditional stereo television speakers. This indicates that surround sound has grown in importance among the gaming community and more and more console owners are making the jump to multi-channel systems.
Who are the early adopters? The research shows that PS3 owners are the first to embrace multi-channel audio systems.
PS3 owners tend to be early adopters of many new technologies, followed closely by Xbox 360 owners.
PS3 Owners Drive Adoption
- Only 27% of PS3s are connected to just TV speakers.
- 30% of PS3 owners have at least a 5.1 set-up; 24% have jumped to 7.1.
- 73% PS3 owners who do not currently have a multi-channel system indicated they would be likely to upgrade to a multi-channel set-up.
...The Nielsen data shows that PS3 owners are the most connected to HD displays, followed closely by Xbox 360 and Wii owners. Across all consoles owners, LCD is the HD display technology of choice, followed by plasma display and rear projection TVs...
The Numbers Game
What do all these numbers mean?
The console gamer represents a massive opportunity for all CE manufacturers, dealers and installers. In fact, gamers could be the next generation of audiophiles, replacing the aging vinyl and the original Star Wars crowd.
They could be the driving force behind the move to 7.1 and beyond.
The challenge for the CE industry is getting gamers to realize the impact of high quality home audio and video gear on their overall gaming experience.
Manufacturers, installers and dealers alike will need to create a step-up market from desktop systems and HTiBs to high-end in-walls and feature-rich AVRs as gaming consoles continue to make their way into living rooms.
But, before any of this can happen, the industry must get a better understanding of who and what they are dealing with.
Don?t make generalizations about gamers. Do the research. Understand their behavior.
Realize that video game consoles are not just another component in the rack, but rather a hub for all entertainment content.
I think this gives us a good idea as to how many users of the PS3 watch movies...
Doing the math... 51% of roughly 2,000,000 PS3 owners watching Blu-rays + 400,000 standalones = 1,420,000 Blu-ray watchers vs 750,000 HD-DVD watchers...
Look familiar? 1.89:1 and this is only in the US. The picture is worse for HD DVD internationally.
Gamers Ripe for High-End A/V Systems, Research Shows
Nielsen Research Group and THX find that gamers use surround sound systems, high-end video products.
http://www.cepro.com/article/gamers_...arch_shows/D1/
I think this gives us a good idea as to how many users of the PS3 watch movies...
Doing the math... 51% of roughly 2,000,000 PS3 owners watching Blu-rays + 400,000 standalones = 1,420,000 Blu-ray watchers vs 750,000 HD-DVD watchers...
Look familiar? 1.89:1 and this is only in the US. The picture is worse for HD DVD internationally.
Well.. If I do your math on your stats....
47% of 9 million xbox360 owners = about 4+ million already in the states.... does it make sense?
The real question is how many of the 51% watch Blu-Ray HDM vs. SD-DVD and what would be the true ratio of that from the total PS3 owners including 18 yrs old and under.
Bad source and bad stats...... not a credible study at all. I'm sure Sony would dream of such data to be true and would endorse spreading such news with every penny.
... Actually I know more people that bought it as a BR player than I do as a game system...
Funny you mention that... I noticed in an ad this weekend that a Sony brand stand-alone BluRay player was being sold for $399. All it will do is play movies ... why would anyone buy that unit when, for the SAME PRICE, they can buy a PS3 that is infinitely more functional? (OK, so "infinitely" might be just a bit of an exaggeration.)
That's a bit like trying to sell a basic Subaru Impreza for the same price as a WRX-STi ... who's gonna opt for the less capable version? (And yes, I know I'm preaching to the choir on this forum.)
Corey, yes it does. Read it again. This time in its entirety.
Marz, wouldn't it make more sense to have a profitable business plan in place for the next 5-10 years until downloadable HD movies can become a reality, instead of spending millions simply to (allegedly) confuse the consumer and stall the adoption of HDM? Yes, yes it would. Won't the HDM players reach $99 pricetags within 1-2 years time, essentially replacing regular DVD players in all stores and leaving the consumer no choice but to go home with an HDM player whether they wanted one or not? Yes, yes they will. Since Sony is Microsoft's number one competitor in the console realm, and since Sony banked their entire share of the console market on forcing the adoption of their next video format, wouldn't it be in Microsoft's best interest NOT to aid Sony in achieving their goals? HD DVD being the anti-Sony is reason enough for Microsoft to genuinely support and bolster HD DVD. And hell, what if HD DVD won? Then what? Is Microsoft going to take everyone's players away and make them download movies on their computers instead?
Microsoft supporting Blu-Ray would be like Apple including Windows as their default OS. It's got nothing to do with delaying HDM adoption until Microsoft "perfects" movie downloads. Lord knows Microsoft couldn't perfect anything whether they had 5 or 5,000 years. The only company who should have a vested interest in delaying HDM adoption for internet-delivered high definition is Apple. You know, that company whose audio/video devices and software can actually be used by normal people.
Next you're going to try and tell me Windows Vista is just a half-hearted ploy by Microsoft to stall the adoption of Windows XP until they perfect this other super-awesome operating system they really want people to buy instead.
I just bought my PS3, and I'm already building a BR collection.
i'm right there with you man!
i have 1 PS3 game and am going to use it primarily for blu-ray.
on the other hand i've got a wii with a ton of games!
not to rain on anyones parade, but isn't physical media a dying bread anyway?
how long do you guys project until we see the majority of movies go download only?
5 years, 10 years?
not to rain on anyones parade, but isn't physical media a dying bread anyway?
I think movie rentals are definitely going the way of on-demand streaming or DRM'd download. Netflix is already experimenting with On-Demand movies for their subscribers that use Windows. They're a far cry from HD, but it's a start.
However, I think there will always be a market for physical media movies for purchase. I know that when I buy the Star Wars trilogy for the last time (if that ever happens) I want it to be on something that I can keep. I don't want to depend on a hard disk or a single device's memory. Whether it's a Blu-ray disc or a dedicated flash chip or something else doesn't matter. I want a physical possession to own.
Of course, if that physical media is so full of DRM that I can't play it without MS's permission in triplicate anyway then the point is sort of moot.