Except for those special features, there's no reason to want to buy or rent a retail disc.
Yes there is- portability. You can easily take a disc somewhere else and play it provided someone else has a machine as well. ANd many film libraries consist of limited release titles (criterion) that are very hard to find anywhere unless you own them yourself.
It's about time. I was growing very weary of this "battle."
Really what does this have to do with Appleinsider- Walmart news? As someone who's name dare not be mentioned on here once said that by the time the public fully embraces blu-ray everyone will be into downloadable HD anyway. Blu-ray is too expensive-don't you think it would have been added to the ATV by now except that it's too expensive?
Yeah. Okay. Good luck downloading 50GB movies over Bittorrent. Yo ho ho, and all that.
I love the headlines this morning. Reuters: Wal-Mart picks Blu-ray in HD DVD Disaster. Other reports from NHK say Toshiba will lose hundreds of millions of dollars as it finally lets go of HD DVD and stops production. Toshiba gambled and they lost big.
They should be commended for going up against SONY, the Microsoft of consumer electronics.
Sour grapes. Bitch and whine about Sony all you want. They won. You backed the wrong horse. Good bye.
Latest news: Now even the Wall Street Journal is reporting that Toshiba will be announcing its surrender as soon as the next few days. I'm in the mood for some Monday morning Blus.
They should be commended for going up against SONY, the Microsoft of consumer electronics.
Yes, the MS of Consumer Electronics [Sony] vs. Toshiba and, well, Microsoft.
To pretend Blu-Ray is Sony alone or HDDVD is Toshiba is like saying CD or DVD is Philips. It's an oversimplification to make it easier to hold a grudge and burn someone for a win or loss.
To pretend Blu-Ray is Sony alone or HDDVD is Toshiba is like saying CD or DVD is Philips. It's an oversimplification to make it easier to hold a grudge and burn someone for a win or loss.
Actually, HD DVD is Toshiba. It's their baby, plain and simple. Microsoft came into the game much later. If Sony were to decide to stop making PS3s and Blu-ray players tomorrow, the other manufacturers and members of the BDA would take up the slack and probably be happy that there's less competition. But notice that every source and every article says that when (not if) Toshiba shuts down HD DVD production, it'll be the final curtain for the format. There's nobody else to take up the banner.
Actually, HD DVD is Toshiba. It's their baby, plain and simple. Microsoft came into the game much later. If Sony were to decide to stop making PS3s and Blu-ray players tomorrow, the other manufacturers and members of the BDA would take up the slack and probably be happy that there's less competition. But notice that every source and every article says that when (not if) Toshiba shuts down HD DVD production, it'll be the final curtain for the format. There's nobody else to take up the banner.
If the DVD consortium had done a better job there wouldn't be all the pressure on Toshiba. The format was still designed with the group; to call it Toshiba's baby might be true to some extent, but they didn't go at it alone.
It's not the DVD Forum's job to force companies to build hardware. Nor do they design anything. They just approve or disapprove. Toshiba and NEC were the sole backers of HD DVD in the Forum. Obviously, NEC does not make players. Like it or not, Toshiba was alone. When the nine companies (count 'em, nine) that backed Blu-ray abstained from approving HD DVD, they changed the rules, expanded the Forum and made it so abstentions didn't count. So, yes, it is the Forum's fault. But it's also Toshiba's own fault. When the majority -- not just Sony, but other CE powerhouses like Matsushita, Samsung and Philips -- says don't do it, don't do it! Toshiba managed to line up everybody else against them by cheating and pissing them off. Now they're paying a very high price for that. The Hollywood Reporter says they lost money on every player they ever sold. So they've never showed a profit on HD DVD but they will take hundreds of millions in charges when they finally quit.
It's not the DVD Forum's job to force companies to build hardware. Nor do they design anything. They just approve or disapprove. Toshiba and NEC were the sole backers of HD DVD in the Forum. Obviously, NEC does not make players. Like it or not, Toshiba was alone. When the nine companies (count 'em, nine) that backed Blu-ray abstained from approving HD DVD, they changed the rules, expanded the Forum and made it so abstentions didn't count. So, yes, it is the Forum's fault. But it's also Toshiba's own fault. When the majority -- not just Sony, but other CE powerhouses like Matsushita, Samsung and Philips -- says don't do it, don't do it! Toshiba managed to line up everybody else against them by cheating and pissing them off. Now they're paying a very high price for that. The Hollywood Reporter says they lost money on every player they ever sold. So they've never showed a profit on HD DVD but they will take hundreds of millions in charges when they finally quit.
So we treat them as martyrs for their poor business? I really don't see what we're celebrating here. Toshiba was not as alone as you make it sound, but even if they were and we're supposed to celebrate them for going into business against the 'majority' in an effort to control the media for the next decade (alone)? That doesn't sound like something worth celebrating.
(I know you weren't the one initially calling for celebration, but that's what I'm arguing against)
I think that it was the retailers that sealed the fate of HD-DVD. When I look back on it, retailers, such as Best Buy for example, would run promotions that if you bought a new HDTV and a Blu Ray player, you'd get $100-$300 back. Essentially paying for a good part of the cost of the player depending on what TV you bought. Best Buy probably got deals from the Blu Ray player makers in that if they ran promotions like that to get the players out the door and a larger market established, they'd sell them the players cheaper. I never once saw deals like that for HD-DVD players.
I think it's sad that consumers really don't get to decide for themselves which they like better and want. It's also sad that HD-DVD will probably come to an end within a year or two. A lot of effort and money went into developing the technology and ability and it didn't live very long (kind of reminds me of the beta tapes I guess). From what everyone was saying, maybe HD-DVD was better? I don't know. But, I guess it has been decided for us.
Actually if you read the Best Buy promotion correctly it stated that if you buy a HDTV $999 and up and purchase either a BLU Ray, HD-DVD, or PS3 it would qualify for the $100-$300 package price...
So we treat them as martyrs for their poor business? I really don't see what we're celebrating here. Toshiba was not as alone as you make it sound, but even if they were and we're supposed to celebrate them for going into business against the 'majority' in an effort to control the media for the next decade (alone)? That doesn't sound like something worth celebrating.
Take a look at the HD DVD promotional group website. On their list of partners, you'll find exactly one other player manufacturer, Venturer. Venturer was not one of the voting members in the DVD Forum during the big fight. They just starting making players late last year. And, boy, they must be regretting that decision now. Microsoft and Intel only jumped in in 2006. HP originally supported Blu-ray. In fact, none of those companies listed are part of the DVD Forum steering committee, other than Toshiba. Sounds pretty alone to me. Where are the HD DVD burners? Only in Toshiba laptops because nobody else makes any. Not Pioneer, not HD DVD "partner" Acer, not LG, nobody. Why? Probably because HD DVD sucks as a PC storage medium. Same price blanks as Blu-ray at 40% lower capacity. Lower write and read speeds. Problems with blue laser dispersion through the thick polycarbonate disc.
You make it sound like they undertook a noble venture. Toshiba started a format war that never should have happened. They didn't care about the consumer or any confusion they may be causing. They just wanted to stretch out their DVD technology a little further and a little longer, customers be damned. That's why they deserved to fail and that's why people are happy they did.
This time they realized that fitting an entire full-length movie on the medium was important...
As fitting an entire movie on a five hour Beta tape was never a problem, it wasn't the cause of Beta's downfall. There were other, some not sensible, reasons for that.
WTF you mean Sony packing a Blu-ray player in the PS3 isn't forcing consumer? They have yet to prove there is even a need for 25GB games.
Wrong, actually. You might as well say that both Nintendo and MS forced a format on consumers. Both prevented any hi def from any usability on their machines. MS, at least, forced HD-DVD down your throat if you wanted some form of HD. So, Sony forced BD. Why is that any worse? At least it was the smart thing to do, as we can see.
Besides, several games companies have stated very strongly that the bigger space is important to them. Several games, though I don't remember which right now, as I'm not a game player, are already using much of that space, though not all of it yet.
How do prices drop now that there is less competition?
You think Sony would have sold the first PS3's at a loss if there was no XBox 360 or Wii?
Sony would have sold at a loss no matter what. They weren't competing with HD-DVD for the PS3, they were. and are, competing for console sales. Don't forget that MS was, and perhaps still selling the 360 for a loss, though Sony's manufacturing price for the PS3 has now dipped just below the $400 mark., and the games division has reported several hundred million in profit.
There isn't any less competition now than there was before. If anything, there is more.
Before, because of the uncertainty, few consumers bought into either format. Now, with the war over, there will be increasing sales. That means a much bigger market, and more competition.
Do you think that there is only one manufacturer of BD players? Do you think that every other standard is competitonless because of the standard?
Do you think that CD player manufacturers had no competition?
How about for DVD?
Do you think that prices would have come down any faster, or sales gone up any quicker, if there were competing standards for both?
I don't think so, and neither will anyone else who understands how this works. If you put some thought into it, neither will you.
And you think the retailers were giving better deals for Blu Ray? You think the consumer really wanted HD-DVD and the retailers took money out of their own pockets to give a better deal to the consumer so that they would buy Blu Ray and not HD-DVD? How stupid of them. What gain was there in it for them? And I remember HD-DVD players being cheaper than Blu Ray players.
Here's what happened. The manufacturer(s) of Blu Ray players were the ones paying for those "deals" you spoke of. HD-DVD manufacturer(s) could have offered those same deals. It's all marketing strategy. I think the HD-DVD strategy was to use the "lower cost alternative" and the Blu Ray strategy was that you were getting a superior product and "you want a good deal on a combo package?"
There are pros and cons with each format, but hopefully the "war" will be over soon and in the long run I think that is in the best interest of the consumer.
Perhaps you didn't notice, but HD-DVD promotions also gave five movies with machines. There was no difference there. In fact, people in forums were themselves promoting the fact that with the five movies you were getting with HD-DVD players, it was an even better buy than BD and it's five movies.
[QUOTE=JeffDM;1216004]It's not that clear-cut on Beta/VHS. The movies produced at the time didn't necessarily show the benefit of Beta. A format that played 90 to 120 min was more desirable for movies than one that played 60 minutes a tape. Early on, you couldn't record a movie from TV using Beta. By the time that changed, the momentum was lost.
Jeff, only the short lived first generation Beta recorded one hour. It did play twop hours, though. The second generation recorded 2 hours, and played three. VHS was ahead, but not by much. It was the third generation products from both camps that had that final recording, and playback times.
Of course, the highest record and playback times for VHS, and the in intial reason why many people bought it, 8 hours, was essentially useless, and after looking at the results once, or after giving up after the tapes broke, people never used it again.
The effective difference for most of the time both formats were out there, therefor, was 5 hours for Beta, and 6 hours for VHS.
Comments
Except for those special features, there's no reason to want to buy or rent a retail disc.
Yes there is- portability. You can easily take a disc somewhere else and play it provided someone else has a machine as well. ANd many film libraries consist of limited release titles (criterion) that are very hard to find anywhere unless you own them yourself.
It's about time. I was growing very weary of this "battle."
Really what does this have to do with Appleinsider- Walmart news? As someone who's name dare not be mentioned on here once said that by the time the public fully embraces blu-ray everyone will be into downloadable HD anyway. Blu-ray is too expensive-don't you think it would have been added to the ATV by now except that it's too expensive?
Yeah. Okay. Good luck downloading 50GB movies over Bittorrent. Yo ho ho, and all that.
I love the headlines this morning. Reuters: Wal-Mart picks Blu-ray in HD DVD Disaster. Other reports from NHK say Toshiba will lose hundreds of millions of dollars as it finally lets go of HD DVD and stops production. Toshiba gambled and they lost big.
They should be commended for going up against SONY, the Microsoft of consumer electronics.
Latest news: Now even the Wall Street Journal is reporting that Toshiba will be announcing its surrender as soon as the next few days. I'm in the mood for some Monday morning Blus.
They should be commended for going up against SONY, the Microsoft of consumer electronics.
Yes, the MS of Consumer Electronics [Sony] vs. Toshiba and, well, Microsoft.
To pretend Blu-Ray is Sony alone or HDDVD is Toshiba is like saying CD or DVD is Philips. It's an oversimplification to make it easier to hold a grudge and burn someone for a win or loss.
They should be commended for going up against SONY, the Microsoft of consumer electronics.
Except that they weren't.
To pretend Blu-Ray is Sony alone or HDDVD is Toshiba is like saying CD or DVD is Philips. It's an oversimplification to make it easier to hold a grudge and burn someone for a win or loss.
Actually, HD DVD is Toshiba. It's their baby, plain and simple. Microsoft came into the game much later. If Sony were to decide to stop making PS3s and Blu-ray players tomorrow, the other manufacturers and members of the BDA would take up the slack and probably be happy that there's less competition. But notice that every source and every article says that when (not if) Toshiba shuts down HD DVD production, it'll be the final curtain for the format. There's nobody else to take up the banner.
Actually, HD DVD is Toshiba. It's their baby, plain and simple. Microsoft came into the game much later. If Sony were to decide to stop making PS3s and Blu-ray players tomorrow, the other manufacturers and members of the BDA would take up the slack and probably be happy that there's less competition. But notice that every source and every article says that when (not if) Toshiba shuts down HD DVD production, it'll be the final curtain for the format. There's nobody else to take up the banner.
If the DVD consortium had done a better job there wouldn't be all the pressure on Toshiba. The format was still designed with the group; to call it Toshiba's baby might be true to some extent, but they didn't go at it alone.
It's not the DVD Forum's job to force companies to build hardware. Nor do they design anything. They just approve or disapprove. Toshiba and NEC were the sole backers of HD DVD in the Forum. Obviously, NEC does not make players. Like it or not, Toshiba was alone. When the nine companies (count 'em, nine) that backed Blu-ray abstained from approving HD DVD, they changed the rules, expanded the Forum and made it so abstentions didn't count. So, yes, it is the Forum's fault. But it's also Toshiba's own fault. When the majority -- not just Sony, but other CE powerhouses like Matsushita, Samsung and Philips -- says don't do it, don't do it! Toshiba managed to line up everybody else against them by cheating and pissing them off. Now they're paying a very high price for that. The Hollywood Reporter says they lost money on every player they ever sold. So they've never showed a profit on HD DVD but they will take hundreds of millions in charges when they finally quit.
So we treat them as martyrs for their poor business? I really don't see what we're celebrating here. Toshiba was not as alone as you make it sound, but even if they were and we're supposed to celebrate them for going into business against the 'majority' in an effort to control the media for the next decade (alone)? That doesn't sound like something worth celebrating.
(I know you weren't the one initially calling for celebration, but that's what I'm arguing against)
I think that it was the retailers that sealed the fate of HD-DVD. When I look back on it, retailers, such as Best Buy for example, would run promotions that if you bought a new HDTV and a Blu Ray player, you'd get $100-$300 back. Essentially paying for a good part of the cost of the player depending on what TV you bought. Best Buy probably got deals from the Blu Ray player makers in that if they ran promotions like that to get the players out the door and a larger market established, they'd sell them the players cheaper. I never once saw deals like that for HD-DVD players.
I think it's sad that consumers really don't get to decide for themselves which they like better and want. It's also sad that HD-DVD will probably come to an end within a year or two. A lot of effort and money went into developing the technology and ability and it didn't live very long (kind of reminds me of the beta tapes I guess). From what everyone was saying, maybe HD-DVD was better? I don't know. But, I guess it has been decided for us.
Actually if you read the Best Buy promotion correctly it stated that if you buy a HDTV $999 and up and purchase either a BLU Ray, HD-DVD, or PS3 it would qualify for the $100-$300 package price...
So we treat them as martyrs for their poor business? I really don't see what we're celebrating here. Toshiba was not as alone as you make it sound, but even if they were and we're supposed to celebrate them for going into business against the 'majority' in an effort to control the media for the next decade (alone)? That doesn't sound like something worth celebrating.
Take a look at the HD DVD promotional group website. On their list of partners, you'll find exactly one other player manufacturer, Venturer. Venturer was not one of the voting members in the DVD Forum during the big fight. They just starting making players late last year. And, boy, they must be regretting that decision now. Microsoft and Intel only jumped in in 2006. HP originally supported Blu-ray. In fact, none of those companies listed are part of the DVD Forum steering committee, other than Toshiba. Sounds pretty alone to me. Where are the HD DVD burners? Only in Toshiba laptops because nobody else makes any. Not Pioneer, not HD DVD "partner" Acer, not LG, nobody. Why? Probably because HD DVD sucks as a PC storage medium. Same price blanks as Blu-ray at 40% lower capacity. Lower write and read speeds. Problems with blue laser dispersion through the thick polycarbonate disc.
You make it sound like they undertook a noble venture. Toshiba started a format war that never should have happened. They didn't care about the consumer or any confusion they may be causing. They just wanted to stretch out their DVD technology a little further and a little longer, customers be damned. That's why they deserved to fail and that's why people are happy they did.
This time they realized that fitting an entire full-length movie on the medium was important...
As fitting an entire movie on a five hour Beta tape was never a problem, it wasn't the cause of Beta's downfall. There were other, some not sensible, reasons for that.
WTF you mean Sony packing a Blu-ray player in the PS3 isn't forcing consumer? They have yet to prove there is even a need for 25GB games.
Wrong, actually. You might as well say that both Nintendo and MS forced a format on consumers. Both prevented any hi def from any usability on their machines. MS, at least, forced HD-DVD down your throat if you wanted some form of HD. So, Sony forced BD. Why is that any worse? At least it was the smart thing to do, as we can see.
Besides, several games companies have stated very strongly that the bigger space is important to them. Several games, though I don't remember which right now, as I'm not a game player, are already using much of that space, though not all of it yet.
How do prices drop now that there is less competition?
You think Sony would have sold the first PS3's at a loss if there was no XBox 360 or Wii?
Sony would have sold at a loss no matter what. They weren't competing with HD-DVD for the PS3, they were. and are, competing for console sales. Don't forget that MS was, and perhaps still selling the 360 for a loss, though Sony's manufacturing price for the PS3 has now dipped just below the $400 mark., and the games division has reported several hundred million in profit.
There isn't any less competition now than there was before. If anything, there is more.
Before, because of the uncertainty, few consumers bought into either format. Now, with the war over, there will be increasing sales. That means a much bigger market, and more competition.
Do you think that there is only one manufacturer of BD players? Do you think that every other standard is competitonless because of the standard?
Do you think that CD player manufacturers had no competition?
How about for DVD?
Do you think that prices would have come down any faster, or sales gone up any quicker, if there were competing standards for both?
I don't think so, and neither will anyone else who understands how this works. If you put some thought into it, neither will you.
And you think the retailers were giving better deals for Blu Ray? You think the consumer really wanted HD-DVD and the retailers took money out of their own pockets to give a better deal to the consumer so that they would buy Blu Ray and not HD-DVD? How stupid of them. What gain was there in it for them? And I remember HD-DVD players being cheaper than Blu Ray players.
Here's what happened. The manufacturer(s) of Blu Ray players were the ones paying for those "deals" you spoke of. HD-DVD manufacturer(s) could have offered those same deals. It's all marketing strategy. I think the HD-DVD strategy was to use the "lower cost alternative" and the Blu Ray strategy was that you were getting a superior product and "you want a good deal on a combo package?"
There are pros and cons with each format, but hopefully the "war" will be over soon and in the long run I think that is in the best interest of the consumer.
Perhaps you didn't notice, but HD-DVD promotions also gave five movies with machines. There was no difference there. In fact, people in forums were themselves promoting the fact that with the five movies you were getting with HD-DVD players, it was an even better buy than BD and it's five movies.
Still, most didn't care.
Jeff, only the short lived first generation Beta recorded one hour. It did play twop hours, though. The second generation recorded 2 hours, and played three. VHS was ahead, but not by much. It was the third generation products from both camps that had that final recording, and playback times.
Of course, the highest record and playback times for VHS, and the in intial reason why many people bought it, 8 hours, was essentially useless, and after looking at the results once, or after giving up after the tapes broke, people never used it again.
The effective difference for most of the time both formats were out there, therefor, was 5 hours for Beta, and 6 hours for VHS.
SonyKat sez:
Die HD-DVD, DIEEEE!
Muhahahahahaha!
What can I say? I just like kitties.
.