One question: how would you drag and drop without it being a serious PITA not only among apps, but even within the same app? Tabs are windows within windows, and the windows are even harder to use together.</strong><hr></blockquote>
You are missing the concept. A tab is a Navigational tool. You can still do all that you now do without them.
[quote]
<strong>Does everyone else really just do work in one window at a time? doesn't anyone use even two widows at a time? doesn't anyone have their apps communicate with one another?</strong><hr></blockquote>
Hughhhhhhhhhhh! When you have the need to work with two windows, you open a tab into a separate window. Duh!! Think outside the box for crying out loud.
[quote]
<strong>
Tabs make it harder to use a machine in a very essential way. I'm not willing to risk such a fundamental - possibly the only really intuitive - aspect of computer behavior.
</strong><hr></blockquote>
Again, you are missing the concept of what tabs are for. Let me say it again, a tab is a tool that gives the user better management of open files by proving a visual map of what you have open from that app and a way to go straight to it without having to dance with menus and or Dock.
Bring back At Ease. Seriously, this has nothing to do with the convenience of a tab option. This has everything to do with its overuse by people who will in turn never ever realize the Window menu exists. Why even have it? Replace it with a tab menu.
The bottom line is tabs will push "drag & drop," multi-window usage habits, etc. out of the picture.
<strong>Bring back At Ease.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Gawed I hate(d) At Ease. Now there's a great example of a piece of UI doo doo. <img src="graemlins/oyvey.gif" border="0" alt="[oyvey]" /> You can't compare what we are talking about with that, come now.
[quote]This has everything to do with its overuse by people who will in turn never ever realize the Window menu exists. Why even have it? Replace it with a tab menu. <hr></blockquote>
Eugene, you do realized the menu IS actually a multi tab UI, don't you?
Gawed I hate(d) At Ease. Now there's a great example of a piece of UI doo doo. <img src="graemlins/oyvey.gif" border="0" alt="[oyvey]" /> You can't compare what we are talking about with that, come now. </strong><hr></blockquote>
No, my stance is against tabs overwhelming the user interface and making multi-window navigation and organization less and less popular, as it seems to be doing at this very moment. An opened tab is quite simply one less window opened.
It could never overwhelm the interface, only complement it. If you think it takes up too much space and you won't use it, turn it off. It doesn't obstruct you from using multiple windows in any way.
As far as preference goes, it will only be popular if and where it's more efficient. It's naive to think we're all embracing tabs because it's "cool". That is simply absurd.</strong><hr></blockquote>
People do a lot of things because of "cool..." a lot of stupid things. It's absurd say otherwise. You've just ignored all history to make this statement.
Is Windows more efficient than Mac OS? Was Windows more efficient than Mac OS in the 80s? The 90s? You've been duped by the Mozilla group. They told you tabs were "cool."
It could never overwhelm the interface, only complement it. If you think it takes up too much space and you won't use it, turn it off. It doesn't obstruct you from using multiple windows in any way.
</strong><hr></blockquote>
Hello, McFly! If we were only worried about our own (non-) use of tabs we wouldn't be called "UI Nazi's".
We want to force everyone to do it our way, because consistency is good and consistency with our way is *better*.
And, more seriously, letting you guys run amok and ruin the Mac interface will not only cheapen and diminish something that we are big fans of, it *will* directly impact our computing experience in the future.
I'm not sure why people don't get this.
Interestingly a parallel UI argument is happening between fans of the Gnome and KDE desktops on Linux.
Gnome UI designers (who are big fans of Apple's work) are standardising, rearranging and slowly reducing the amount of options visible in the GUI so that newbies and non-CS student's have a chance of finding and changing their monitor settings.
They are getting an unbelievable amount of stick for this as obviously many people's pet preferences are being removed. Note that, like with Apple and the Chimera /Camino project, the code is still there, just that the preference is not exposed in the GUI.
Any Apple Geek viewing this from the outside would laugh at the KDE position (some want a pop-up box on install that asks you if the OK button should appear on the left or the right hand side of the dialog box) but I think that's where many tab fans are finding themselves now.
Options can be bad. This article is about open-source usability but the Question of Preferences section is relevant:
I think I just realized why I've always preferred GNOME to KDE in terms of UI, though KDE seems to be getting a lot more work put into it these days...not sure if that's a good thng considering typical FSF-esque interface design.
1: Tabs are the epitome of all the UI evil in this world. Yes, I realize that some people like, or even need them, but those people do not understand the evil they are unleashing, they are deceived, addicted (and probably gay to.) The devil sent tabs from hell to destroy us, and if they stay on this earth another day, OS X will begin on an unstoppable decent until its UI is less bearable then using DOS on a 486 with a broken keyboard and bleeding fingers.
2: Tabs are a bad idea. Trying (and failing) to solve a problem that wasn?t really there in the first place. If you want to use them, fine. But I will have no part in your MDI hell.
3: Tabs? Huh? WIll they make the 970 get here any faster?
4: Tabs are a cool Idea, and in my opinion they reduce clutter allow me quick and easy access to the web pages I have loaded. Easier then say, using the windows menu or minimizing them in the dock. If you don?t like them, don?t use them. But quit raining on my parade.
5:I would rather sell my family, give up both heroin and crack cold turkey, then loose my precious precious tabs. I will NEVER allow those UI Nazis to take my precious. MY PRECIOUSSSSSSSSSSS</strong><hr></blockquote>
4.5. UI Nazis must die. I've ALWAYS advocated following GUI guidelines in all cases EXCEPT when it is bleeding obvious there is a better way. Eg tabs in web browsing.
<strong>Oh no! It's that slippery slope again! You know, that argument people use when they can't think of any other!</strong><hr></blockquote>
I prefer to think of it as a social dilemma, everyone acting in their own rational self-interest ends up ruining it for everyone, including themselves. A tragedy of the commons, if you will.
In these cases, the very nature of things means that there *is* a slippery slope.
4.5. UI Nazis must die. I've ALWAYS advocated following GUI guidelines in all cases EXCEPT when it is bleeding obvious there is a better way. Eg tabs in web browsing.
Barto</strong><hr></blockquote>
If it was clear-cut, the debate wouldn't be raging on at MacNN or Ars Technica's message boards.
I e-mailed Bruce Tognazzini for his opinion on the subject. He seems to have dropped off the face of the planet though.
[quote]Oh no! It's that slippery slope again! You know, that argument people use when they can't think of any other!<hr></blockquote>
From what I've seen, the pro argument can be simplified to "Tabs are cool because they are right in front of me."
The con side goes into a bit more detail... Deconstruction of the traditional Mac OS application/window metaphor, ignorance of existing solutions, specific problems with tabs, mesh problems with existing UI devices, KISS, etc.
From what I've seen, the pro argument can be simplified to "Tabs are cool because they are right in front of me."
The con side goes into a bit more detail... Deconstruction of the traditional Mac OS application/window metaphor, ignorance of existing solutions, specific problems with tabs, mesh problems with existing UI devices, KISS, etc.
Exactly the point I'm trying to make! Much of the time tabs are evil. However, there are a few cases (like 2 or 3 preference panes, and web browsing) where it is fairly obvious that tabs increase usability by decreasing onscreen clutter. You generally arn't going to be drag'n'dropping between browser windows and preference panes.
You can be a Nazi if you want. I'm prepared to be flexible when that is warranted.
Exactly the point I'm trying to make! Much of the time tabs are evil. However, there are a few cases (like 2 or 3 preference panes, and web browsing) where it is fairly obvious that tabs increase usability by decreasing onscreen clutter. You generally arn't going to be drag'n'dropping between browser windows and preference panes.
You can be a Nazi if you want. I'm prepared to be flexible when that is warranted.
Barto</strong><hr></blockquote>
It's too bad my complaints refer to tabbed web browsing specifically. At least with simple application controls and preferences, drag'n'drop isn't really an issue. And with all existing tabbed interfaces in OS X, tabs don't appear and disappear.
However, there are a few cases (like 2 or 3 preference panes, and web browsing) where it is fairly obvious that tabs increase usability by decreasing onscreen clutter.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Please, please, please, could people stop comparing preference tabs to browser tabs.
They are utterly different things and Apple's avoidance of using the existing Aqua tab widget is one of the best things about their implimentation.
In many dimensions preference tabs are static where browser tabs are dynamic.
When have you ever created a new preference tab, or closed an existing one?
When have you seen preference tabs fill up and overflow out of their allocated space?
When have you seen preference tabs whose titles all begin with the same three letters followed by "..."?
When have you ever felt the need to move a preference tab from one preference window to another?
No-one is worried about the correct use of static 'preference-style' tabs. No-one.
Comments
<strong>
One question: how would you drag and drop without it being a serious PITA not only among apps, but even within the same app? Tabs are windows within windows, and the windows are even harder to use together.</strong><hr></blockquote>
You are missing the concept. A tab is a Navigational tool. You can still do all that you now do without them.
[quote]
<strong>Does everyone else really just do work in one window at a time? doesn't anyone use even two widows at a time? doesn't anyone have their apps communicate with one another?</strong><hr></blockquote>
Hughhhhhhhhhhh! When you have the need to work with two windows, you open a tab into a separate window. Duh!! Think outside the box for crying out loud.
[quote]
<strong>
Tabs make it harder to use a machine in a very essential way. I'm not willing to risk such a fundamental - possibly the only really intuitive - aspect of computer behavior.
</strong><hr></blockquote>
Again, you are missing the concept of what tabs are for. Let me say it again, a tab is a tool that gives the user better management of open files by proving a visual map of what you have open from that app and a way to go straight to it without having to dance with menus and or Dock.
[ 02-26-2003: Message edited by: PooPooDoctor ]</p>
The bottom line is tabs will push "drag & drop," multi-window usage habits, etc. out of the picture.
[ 02-26-2003: Message edited by: Eugene ]</p>
<strong>Bring back At Ease.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Gawed I hate(d) At Ease. Now there's a great example of a piece of UI doo doo. <img src="graemlins/oyvey.gif" border="0" alt="[oyvey]" /> You can't compare what we are talking about with that, come now.
[quote]This has everything to do with its overuse by people who will in turn never ever realize the Window menu exists. Why even have it? Replace it with a tab menu. <hr></blockquote>
Eugene, you do realized the menu IS actually a multi tab UI, don't you?
[ 02-26-2003: Message edited by: PooPooDoctor ]</p>
You're very trusting of the rest of the world's computer users.
Most of these people don't think twice about MDI.
Most of these people don't think twice about multi-rowed tabs.
Most of these people don't think twice about having no Mac-like menubar.
Most of these people think Trillian is the best IM client on the planet.
Most people use Microsoft Windows.
etc etc etc etc
There's no denying tabs force drag'n'drop utility and multiple windowed interfaces one layer deeper.
<strong>
Gawed I hate(d) At Ease. Now there's a great example of a piece of UI doo doo. <img src="graemlins/oyvey.gif" border="0" alt="[oyvey]" /> You can't compare what we are talking about with that, come now.
At Ease was tab heaven!
<strong>
At Ease was tab heaven!</strong><hr></blockquote>
Oh my... You ARE comparing tabs with that. You need help.
<strong>
Oh my... You ARE comparing tabs with that. You need help.
Dude, any and all tabs are the best thing since the George Foreman Grill. How can you hate At Ease?!
<strong>
It could never overwhelm the interface, only complement it. If you think it takes up too much space and you won't use it, turn it off. It doesn't obstruct you from using multiple windows in any way.
As far as preference goes, it will only be popular if and where it's more efficient. It's naive to think we're all embracing tabs because it's "cool". That is simply absurd.</strong><hr></blockquote>
People do a lot of things because of "cool..." a lot of stupid things. It's absurd say otherwise. You've just ignored all history to make this statement.
Is Windows more efficient than Mac OS? Was Windows more efficient than Mac OS in the 80s? The 90s? You've been duped by the Mozilla group. They told you tabs were "cool."
<strong>
It could never overwhelm the interface, only complement it. If you think it takes up too much space and you won't use it, turn it off. It doesn't obstruct you from using multiple windows in any way.
</strong><hr></blockquote>
Hello, McFly! If we were only worried about our own (non-) use of tabs we wouldn't be called "UI Nazi's".
We want to force everyone to do it our way, because consistency is good and consistency with our way is *better*.
And, more seriously, letting you guys run amok and ruin the Mac interface will not only cheapen and diminish something that we are big fans of, it *will* directly impact our computing experience in the future.
I'm not sure why people don't get this.
Interestingly a parallel UI argument is happening between fans of the Gnome and KDE desktops on Linux.
Gnome UI designers (who are big fans of Apple's work) are standardising, rearranging and slowly reducing the amount of options visible in the GUI so that newbies and non-CS student's have a chance of finding and changing their monitor settings.
They are getting an unbelievable amount of stick for this as obviously many people's pet preferences are being removed. Note that, like with Apple and the Chimera /Camino project, the code is still there, just that the preference is not exposed in the GUI.
Any Apple Geek viewing this from the outside would laugh at the KDE position (some want a pop-up box on install that asks you if the OK button should appear on the left or the right hand side of the dialog box) but I think that's where many tab fans are finding themselves now.
Options can be bad. This article is about open-source usability but the Question of Preferences section is relevant:
<a href="http://www106.pair.com/rhp/free-software-ui.html"; target="_blank">http://www106.pair.com/rhp/free-software-ui.html</a>;
And read how difficult it is to do simple tasks like "turning on a clock" when usability theory goes out the window.
<a href="http://developer.gnome.org/projects/gup/ut1_report/customization_tasks.html"; target="_blank">http://developer.gnome.org/projects/gup/ut1_report/customization_tasks.html</a>;
edit: here's a popular statement of the KDE position.
<a href="http://www.mosfet.org/configurability.html"; target="_blank">http://www.mosfet.org/configurability.html</a>;
[ 02-26-2003: Message edited by: stupider...likeafox ]</p>
<strong>
<a href="http://ktown.kde.org/~dirk/kde-3.1/fullsize/1.png"; target="_blank">http://ktown.kde.org/~dirk/kde-3.1/fullsize/1.png</a>;
<img src="graemlins/bugeye.gif" border="0" alt="[Skeptical]" />
Barto
<strong>TABS POLL!
On a scale of 1 to 5 how much do you like tabs:
1: Tabs are the epitome of all the UI evil in this world. Yes, I realize that some people like, or even need them, but those people do not understand the evil they are unleashing, they are deceived, addicted (and probably gay to.) The devil sent tabs from hell to destroy us, and if they stay on this earth another day, OS X will begin on an unstoppable decent until its UI is less bearable then using DOS on a 486 with a broken keyboard and bleeding fingers.
2: Tabs are a bad idea. Trying (and failing) to solve a problem that wasn?t really there in the first place. If you want to use them, fine. But I will have no part in your MDI hell.
3: Tabs? Huh? WIll they make the 970 get here any faster?
4: Tabs are a cool Idea, and in my opinion they reduce clutter allow me quick and easy access to the web pages I have loaded. Easier then say, using the windows menu or minimizing them in the dock. If you don?t like them, don?t use them. But quit raining on my parade.
5:I would rather sell my family, give up both heroin and crack cold turkey, then loose my precious precious tabs. I will NEVER allow those UI Nazis to take my precious. MY PRECIOUSSSSSSSSSSS</strong><hr></blockquote>
4.5. UI Nazis must die. I've ALWAYS advocated following GUI guidelines in all cases EXCEPT when it is bleeding obvious there is a better way. Eg tabs in web browsing.
Barto
<strong>Oh no! It's that slippery slope again! You know, that argument people use when they can't think of any other!</strong><hr></blockquote>
I prefer to think of it as a social dilemma, everyone acting in their own rational self-interest ends up ruining it for everyone, including themselves. A tragedy of the commons, if you will.
In these cases, the very nature of things means that there *is* a slippery slope.
read more:
<a href="http://www.magnolia.net/~leonf/sd/sd.html"; target="_blank">http://www.magnolia.net/~leonf/sd/sd.html</a>;
[ 02-26-2003: Message edited by: stupider...likeafox ]</p>
<strong>
4.5. UI Nazis must die. I've ALWAYS advocated following GUI guidelines in all cases EXCEPT when it is bleeding obvious there is a better way. Eg tabs in web browsing.
Barto</strong><hr></blockquote>
If it was clear-cut, the debate wouldn't be raging on at MacNN or Ars Technica's message boards.
I e-mailed Bruce Tognazzini for his opinion on the subject. He seems to have dropped off the face of the planet though.
[quote]Oh no! It's that slippery slope again! You know, that argument people use when they can't think of any other!<hr></blockquote>
From what I've seen, the pro argument can be simplified to "Tabs are cool because they are right in front of me."
The con side goes into a bit more detail... Deconstruction of the traditional Mac OS application/window metaphor, ignorance of existing solutions, specific problems with tabs, mesh problems with existing UI devices, KISS, etc.
[ 02-26-2003: Message edited by: Eugene ]</p>
<strong>
From what I've seen, the pro argument can be simplified to "Tabs are cool because they are right in front of me."
The con side goes into a bit more detail... Deconstruction of the traditional Mac OS application/window metaphor, ignorance of existing solutions, specific problems with tabs, mesh problems with existing UI devices, KISS, etc.
[ 02-26-2003: Message edited by: Eugene ]</strong><hr></blockquote>
Exactly the point I'm trying to make! Much of the time tabs are evil. However, there are a few cases (like 2 or 3 preference panes, and web browsing) where it is fairly obvious that tabs increase usability by decreasing onscreen clutter. You generally arn't going to be drag'n'dropping between browser windows and preference panes.
You can be a Nazi if you want. I'm prepared to be flexible when that is warranted.
Barto
That is, for his illogical hatred of the dock. Another example of flexibility in guideline following where it is warranted
Barto
<strong>
Exactly the point I'm trying to make! Much of the time tabs are evil. However, there are a few cases (like 2 or 3 preference panes, and web browsing) where it is fairly obvious that tabs increase usability by decreasing onscreen clutter. You generally arn't going to be drag'n'dropping between browser windows and preference panes.
You can be a Nazi if you want. I'm prepared to be flexible when that is warranted.
Barto</strong><hr></blockquote>
It's too bad my complaints refer to tabbed web browsing specifically. At least with simple application controls and preferences, drag'n'drop isn't really an issue. And with all existing tabbed interfaces in OS X, tabs don't appear and disappear.
<strong>
However, there are a few cases (like 2 or 3 preference panes, and web browsing) where it is fairly obvious that tabs increase usability by decreasing onscreen clutter.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Please, please, please, could people stop comparing preference tabs to browser tabs.
They are utterly different things and Apple's avoidance of using the existing Aqua tab widget is one of the best things about their implimentation.
In many dimensions preference tabs are static where browser tabs are dynamic.
When have you ever created a new preference tab, or closed an existing one?
When have you seen preference tabs fill up and overflow out of their allocated space?
When have you seen preference tabs whose titles all begin with the same three letters followed by "..."?
When have you ever felt the need to move a preference tab from one preference window to another?
No-one is worried about the correct use of static 'preference-style' tabs. No-one.