Interesting that the photo numbers aren't much different. Perhaps it is the only criteria that was common in the tests. Would love to see the study protocols.
Still, if these new numbers hold, it is still quite impressive.
Point I was making is that this is indicative of the entire problem with this whole launch in Canada right now. There is no clarity on any aspect of this and even Rogers can't agree with itself on what is what.
Makes it hard to make an informed decision with only 3 days to go don't you think?
Phone will be available from multiple places in Australia, including 3rd party stores, i know that for sure. My Mac Australia has announced it will be selling it. For Apple not to sell it at their OWN stores in Canada, me thinks Apple not happy :P
But will it be sold at the Apple Store in Sydney?
The fact that third-party cellular carrier stores are selling it is obvious.... This time around it's really being treated like any other cell phone in terms of how it's being sold (all hype aside).
However, the key problem is that any carrier that is subsidizing the iPhone naturally doesn't want it walking out of the store at the subsidized price without a contract, since they risk losing money. This is especially true with the iPhone and all of the underground sales and unlocking that went on with the first iteration. If Apple is unable or unwilling to equip their own people to handle the carrier activation procedures, that rules out the Apple Stores in those countries.
Further, Apple is all about image, and this is clear in their stores. If they feel that dealing with carrier issues might adversely affect their Apple Retail image, they're going to avoid doing that entirely. For instance, the idea of having a Rogers or Fido rep standing in an Apple Store would probably be something they'd shy away from. Further, although I could see Apple Stores selling it at the non-subsidized price, I think Apple would want to avoid doing this on day one, since it would look extremely expensive and they're trying to push the low price of the new model.
Call Rogers and speak to Sales. Tell them you were planning on buying an iPhone but then you saw the data plan and now you will not. Tell them they lost a potential customer.
The more they get hammered and the more bad press, they will cave.
Interesting story... but of course... there are a grand total of 6 Apple Stores in the whole of Canada... 3 of which are in Toronto... so you know... whatever.
Call Rogers and speak to Sales. Tell them you were planning on buying an iPhone but then you saw the data plan and now you will not. Tell them they lost a potential customer.
The more they get hammered and the more bad press, they will cave.
They don't care. They just plain old don't care. They make their big money off BlackBerry corporate data plans. This is also the top reason their iPhone plans are so shitty - they don't want to compete with themselves by offering better pricing than their current cash-cow.
It's really that simple... and it's depressing, and frustrating, because we don't have anyone else to provide us with service for the iPhone. It's REALLY frustrating.
Is it possible that the Apple Store isn't selling the phones b/c they couldn't come up with a process to sign new customers into a Rogers phone contract?
It seems logical that, since the sign-up process is complicated, the Apple stores in Canada may have not been able to figure out how to make the sign-up process a seamless experience.
Also, maybe this was part of the contract agreement between Rogers and Apple (at least for the first little while?) - if the Apple store sells the phone, Rogers does not get the revenue from the handset sale. I realize that the Apple store will want to sell the handsets, but my guess is that this was possibly part of the launch strategy.
Thoughts?
Apple can't get it right???? You must be kidding.
If anyone can't get it right, it's Rogers. The sign up process will be oh-so-Apple-like in that it will be mind-numbingly simple for the staff to do.
I asked a 3rd party Apple retailer manager if they were selling the iPhone and at the time he informed me that Rogers had an exclusive for the phone, which also included the half dozen Canadian Apple-owned stores would NOT be selling the phone either. Unfortunately Rogers has more retail coverage than Apple has in Canada.
Rogers does actually generate a small amount of revenue from the phone sale and then also the contract. It really is a shame that Apple has done the deal they have. I'm confident that Apple didn't expect the unintended consequences of Rogers' RAPE Plans announcements with Canadians. I really hope that Canadians boycott Rogers en masse but fear that in the true Canadian lemming style we seem to behave by, that we'll just take it from Rogers right up the hoop.
And yesterday TELUS and Bell announced .15 cents per incoming text message. CANADA HAS NEVER NEEDED MORE COMPETITION IN THE WIRELESS INDUSTRY AS IT NEEDS TODAY.
Good luck to you chumps for the next 3 years that actually take it up the hoop to get an iPhone.
Point I was making is that this is indicative of the entire problem with this whole launch in Canada right now. There is no clarity on any aspect of this and even Rogers can't agree with itself on what is what.
Makes it hard to make an informed decision with only 3 days to go don't you think?
Based on delivering 'accuracy', the media is one of the worst. If the CBC can err, who know how far CTV goes. Until Rogers officially posts the new data, the old data (http://www.prnewswire.com/cgi-bin/st...4840130&EDATE=) has to suffice.
So far, there is no evidence sending e-mails or web surfing or sharing images via the iPhone requires the need for unlimited data plans as Rogers and most international carriers are betting on.
Perhaps Steve's insistence that the iPhone can only acquire large file or iTunes purchase to be Wi-Fi'd, and have the device automatically switch to the cheapest available delivery system (Wi-FI?Edge?3G) has set a new paradigm in wireless communication. I would certainly hope so.
As far as I can tell now, if Rogers announced their iPhone plans today, with the exception of a couple of carriers, the prices are not out of line. High maybe. But not out of line.
If the iPhone was unlocked you could order it from the Apple Store and pop in your existing SIM card, thus you won´t tie yourself to a nasty multi-year plan...
Yes, and if auto dealers left cars unlocked with keys in the ignition, you wouldn't have to tie yourself to a nasty multi-year car loan.
Funny thing, though. The people who work for car dealers want money to buy food, clothes, etc., and so do people who work for Apple, AT&T, Rogers, etc.
If Apple really cared, they simply would have sold all the iPhones as unlocked devices everywhere, at the same time. The decision to create exclusivity contracts with particular carriers got them into the mess, and now they have to deal with it.
Correct me if I'm wrong but it wouldn't matter in this case: Rogers is the ONLY GSM provider in Canada... so it's Rogers or nothing.
This post is bull@#%*. I called my local Rogers store who are selling the iPhone on Friday and they are receiving at least 200 of them so this story is nonsense. Not to defend Robbers (oops, Rogers) but I'm sure they will have stock at most locations and it was probably too complex for our Apple stores to figure out how to prepare the various voice/data plan combinations that are now possible with Rogers. Best they leave it up to Rogers really. Let us not forget that the deal between Rogers and Apple was signed, sealed and delivered well before it became known to the public.
Apple have played games with iPhone from day 1 by locking it to certain providers, so it's a bit rich to get on their high horse now.
And Motorola locked the Razr to only GSM when it debuted and the sidekick is STILL locked to t-mobile and the new Instinct is to Sprint, and your point? High profile devices often get exclusivity.
Now, I realize that a number of you may not believe me, or in particular, what the Rogers Rep told me about the Data Usage, but here goes.
Rogers has been testing the iPhone from day one and their findings have consistently shown that the number of emails, web pages and photo attachments, i.e., 200,000, 3,100 and 1,360 respectively for 400MB, are in fact inline. In addition, the average data usage as tabled per AT&T user has been verified. As the Rep said, you will be amazed at how much you will be get on the iPhone with just a 400MB data plan
Ha, What are you a Rogers PR operative?? Their numbers are way off! I know I've posted this elsewhere, but I think it's totally necessary given this discussion thread!
I collected this data a few months ago for a post how bad Rogers Inc was at the time (which was literally 10X worse) but it certainly applies to this!
In this test, I'm focusing on the data use from normal web browsing. I am ignoring every other use of data on the iPhone.
I only ran the test on a randomly-choosen *subpages* of the websites AKA NOT THE LONG AND GRAPHIC HEAVY FRONT PAGES, and the chosen sub-pages usually consisted of an
article page or forum page, and most had zero flash elements. Just look at how large the average page size is for these popular websites I go to:
engadget.com (blog post subpage) 420KB
yahoo.com (news article subpage) 585KB
nytimes.com (news article subpage) 345KB
seedmagazine.com (article subpage) 223KB
discovermagazine.com (article subpage) 731KB
livescience.com (article subpage) 438KB
tgdaily.com (article subpage) 253KB
technologyreview.com (article subpage) 247KB
macrumors.com (forum page) 217KB
tmz.com (blog post subpage) 433KB
Average sub-page data size: 389KB/page.
So, using an iPhone with different 3G browsing limits, you can view:
250MB /30 = 8.3 MB per day = 21 web page views per day
300MB /30 = 10 MB per day = 25 web page views per day
400MB /30 = 13.3 MB per day = 34 web page views per day
600MB /30 = 20 MB per day = 51 web page views per day
750MB /30 = 25 MB per day = 64 web page views per day
1.0 GB /30 = 33.3 MB per day = 85 web page views per day
5.0 GB /30 = 166.7 MB per day = 428 web page views per day
Think of how fast you can zip through different webpages with a 3G phone getting 600-1200 kbps. You could easily view the 21 pages per day of the 250MB/month data plan in 10-15 minutes waiting for a bus!
And remember, this doesn't even include all the other things people will be doing that use data:
* Google Maps (especially now with GPS!) - Very easy to use many MBs in one quick session of scrolling around a map. Have a route-following GPS navigation for 15 minutes could easily use 25MB.
* Sending and Receiving Email and attachments - Remember, No MMS for pictures! Other office-type and PDF documents will be sent around as well.
* Uploading Photos - Flickr, MobileMe etc.
* Online Chat via AIM/MSN/SKYPE
* Viewing Youtube, MMS-type video, and other online video - video can quickly use A LOT of bandwidth. 3-7 seconds per MB.
* Downloading applications and games
*Online multiplayer gaming
* Internet radio streaming
[B]* Downloading mp3s
Not to mention all the applications that will require internet access and server access to function....
I hope that many of these countries are able to get a better allotment of data usage on their plans in the future. I'm sure all the telecom companies just aren't used to hardly any data being used on their networks so they've kept prices high. Hopefully that will change with the iPhone and they'll realize how popular data usage will be and lower the rates as the volume of users using data increases.
They were the rates right until the iPhone 3G rates were announced... just 3-4 weeks ago I believe. The link in that article went to the main pricing page for smartphones. Funny how it is NOW broken!
EDIT: Apparently, those are still the RATES for non-iphone Smartphones?????
They were the rates right until the iPhone 3G rates were announced... just 3-4 weeks ago I believe. The link in that article went to the main pricing page for smartphones. Funny how it is NOW broken!
So one could infer that the data rates have gotten better with Rogers because of the iPhone?
Also, I can show you a new and simple object that will be included on the iPhone 3G Box set: Sim Ejector Tool (see picture). Basically, it's helpful to eject the Sim Card slot from the inside of the iPhone 3G.
It's a paperclip neutered of its original function!
Quote:
Originally Posted by KindredMac
Your last sentence is where my "reasoning" is coming from. I, as a consumer who works in a physical commodity industry, cannot see the justness of the prices being placed on a digital "invisible" commodity.
Yes, because it's digital, then that means there was hardly any work put into it to make it in the first place, and even if there was, trying to recoup that investment is just wrong if the incremental cost is tiny.
Quote:
Originally Posted by KindredMac
Typical greed.
The thing that kills me about all of the cell phone data plans and the broadband prices out there is that they are pretty much making pure profit off of all of these things. It's not like they have to "manufacture and distribute" an actual physical commodity. They just have to make sure that the network is open and up and running.
It would be like me charging someone to get onto my WiFi network at home. Once I covered all my expenses of the hardware and service that I have to pay, it is all profit and I don't have to lift a finger to do anything.... ANYTHING!
Just a hint, reliable cell towers are a lot more expensive to build and maintain than your WiFi network. Your network goes down, you can fix it at your leisure. A cell tower goes down, you have thousands of customers upset and without service, and repair must be done in a very timely manner.
Quote:
Originally Posted by MomentsofSanity
Point I was making is that this is indicative of the entire problem with this whole launch in Canada right now. There is no clarity on any aspect of this and even Rogers can't agree with itself on what is what.
Makes it hard to make an informed decision with only 3 days to go don't you think?
Friday isn't a deadline. No one has to buy the iPhone on Friday. Personally, I'm waiting for someone I know to get one so I can see how good of a signal it can get in my workshop. That may be a couple weeks.
Comments
Can't argue about it. I took the numbers posted earlier. http://www.appleinsider.com/articles..._150_mins.html
Interesting that the photo numbers aren't much different. Perhaps it is the only criteria that was common in the tests. Would love to see the study protocols.
Still, if these new numbers hold, it is still quite impressive.
Point I was making is that this is indicative of the entire problem with this whole launch in Canada right now. There is no clarity on any aspect of this and even Rogers can't agree with itself on what is what.
Makes it hard to make an informed decision with only 3 days to go don't you think?
Phone will be available from multiple places in Australia, including 3rd party stores, i know that for sure. My Mac Australia has announced it will be selling it. For Apple not to sell it at their OWN stores in Canada, me thinks Apple not happy :P
But will it be sold at the Apple Store in Sydney?
The fact that third-party cellular carrier stores are selling it is obvious.... This time around it's really being treated like any other cell phone in terms of how it's being sold (all hype aside).
However, the key problem is that any carrier that is subsidizing the iPhone naturally doesn't want it walking out of the store at the subsidized price without a contract, since they risk losing money. This is especially true with the iPhone and all of the underground sales and unlocking that went on with the first iteration. If Apple is unable or unwilling to equip their own people to handle the carrier activation procedures, that rules out the Apple Stores in those countries.
Further, Apple is all about image, and this is clear in their stores. If they feel that dealing with carrier issues might adversely affect their Apple Retail image, they're going to avoid doing that entirely. For instance, the idea of having a Rogers or Fido rep standing in an Apple Store would probably be something they'd shy away from. Further, although I could see Apple Stores selling it at the non-subsidized price, I think Apple would want to avoid doing this on day one, since it would look extremely expensive and they're trying to push the low price of the new model.
The more they get hammered and the more bad press, they will cave.
Call Rogers and speak to Sales. Tell them you were planning on buying an iPhone but then you saw the data plan and now you will not. Tell them they lost a potential customer.
The more they get hammered and the more bad press, they will cave.
They don't care. They just plain old don't care. They make their big money off BlackBerry corporate data plans. This is also the top reason their iPhone plans are so shitty - they don't want to compete with themselves by offering better pricing than their current cash-cow.
It's really that simple... and it's depressing, and frustrating, because we don't have anyone else to provide us with service for the iPhone. It's REALLY frustrating.
Question for everyone:
Is it possible that the Apple Store isn't selling the phones b/c they couldn't come up with a process to sign new customers into a Rogers phone contract?
It seems logical that, since the sign-up process is complicated, the Apple stores in Canada may have not been able to figure out how to make the sign-up process a seamless experience.
Also, maybe this was part of the contract agreement between Rogers and Apple (at least for the first little while?) - if the Apple store sells the phone, Rogers does not get the revenue from the handset sale. I realize that the Apple store will want to sell the handsets, but my guess is that this was possibly part of the launch strategy.
Thoughts?
Apple can't get it right???? You must be kidding.
If anyone can't get it right, it's Rogers. The sign up process will be oh-so-Apple-like in that it will be mind-numbingly simple for the staff to do.
I asked a 3rd party Apple retailer manager if they were selling the iPhone and at the time he informed me that Rogers had an exclusive for the phone, which also included the half dozen Canadian Apple-owned stores would NOT be selling the phone either. Unfortunately Rogers has more retail coverage than Apple has in Canada.
Rogers does actually generate a small amount of revenue from the phone sale and then also the contract. It really is a shame that Apple has done the deal they have. I'm confident that Apple didn't expect the unintended consequences of Rogers' RAPE Plans announcements with Canadians. I really hope that Canadians boycott Rogers en masse but fear that in the true Canadian lemming style we seem to behave by, that we'll just take it from Rogers right up the hoop.
And yesterday TELUS and Bell announced .15 cents per incoming text message. CANADA HAS NEVER NEEDED MORE COMPETITION IN THE WIRELESS INDUSTRY AS IT NEEDS TODAY.
Good luck to you chumps for the next 3 years that actually take it up the hoop to get an iPhone.
Point I was making is that this is indicative of the entire problem with this whole launch in Canada right now. There is no clarity on any aspect of this and even Rogers can't agree with itself on what is what.
Makes it hard to make an informed decision with only 3 days to go don't you think?
Based on delivering 'accuracy', the media is one of the worst. If the CBC can err, who know how far CTV goes. Until Rogers officially posts the new data, the old data (http://www.prnewswire.com/cgi-bin/st...4840130&EDATE=) has to suffice.
So far, there is no evidence sending e-mails or web surfing or sharing images via the iPhone requires the need for unlimited data plans as Rogers and most international carriers are betting on.
Perhaps Steve's insistence that the iPhone can only acquire large file or iTunes purchase to be Wi-Fi'd, and have the device automatically switch to the cheapest available delivery system (Wi-FI?Edge?3G) has set a new paradigm in wireless communication. I would certainly hope so.
As far as I can tell now, if Rogers announced their iPhone plans today, with the exception of a couple of carriers, the prices are not out of line. High maybe. But not out of line.
If the iPhone was unlocked you could order it from the Apple Store and pop in your existing SIM card, thus you won´t tie yourself to a nasty multi-year plan...
Yes, and if auto dealers left cars unlocked with keys in the ignition, you wouldn't have to tie yourself to a nasty multi-year car loan.
Funny thing, though. The people who work for car dealers want money to buy food, clothes, etc., and so do people who work for Apple, AT&T, Rogers, etc.
If Apple really cared, they simply would have sold all the iPhones as unlocked devices everywhere, at the same time. The decision to create exclusivity contracts with particular carriers got them into the mess, and now they have to deal with it.
Correct me if I'm wrong but it wouldn't matter in this case: Rogers is the ONLY GSM provider in Canada... so it's Rogers or nothing.
Apple have played games with iPhone from day 1 by locking it to certain providers, so it's a bit rich to get on their high horse now.
And Motorola locked the Razr to only GSM when it debuted and the sidekick is STILL locked to t-mobile and the new Instinct is to Sprint, and your point? High profile devices often get exclusivity.
Now, I realize that a number of you may not believe me, or in particular, what the Rogers Rep told me about the Data Usage, but here goes.
Rogers has been testing the iPhone from day one and their findings have consistently shown that the number of emails, web pages and photo attachments, i.e., 200,000, 3,100 and 1,360 respectively for 400MB, are in fact inline. In addition, the average data usage as tabled per AT&T user has been verified. As the Rep said, you will be amazed at how much you will be get on the iPhone with just a 400MB data plan
Ha, What are you a Rogers PR operative?? Their numbers are way off! I know I've posted this elsewhere, but I think it's totally necessary given this discussion thread!
I collected this data a few months ago for a post how bad Rogers Inc was at the time (which was literally 10X worse) but it certainly applies to this!
In this test, I'm focusing on the data use from normal web browsing. I am ignoring every other use of data on the iPhone.
I only ran the test on a randomly-choosen *subpages* of the websites AKA NOT THE LONG AND GRAPHIC HEAVY FRONT PAGES, and the chosen sub-pages usually consisted of an
article page or forum page, and most had zero flash elements. Just look at how large the average page size is for these popular websites I go to:
engadget.com (blog post subpage) 420KB
yahoo.com (news article subpage) 585KB
nytimes.com (news article subpage) 345KB
seedmagazine.com (article subpage) 223KB
discovermagazine.com (article subpage) 731KB
livescience.com (article subpage) 438KB
tgdaily.com (article subpage) 253KB
technologyreview.com (article subpage) 247KB
macrumors.com (forum page) 217KB
tmz.com (blog post subpage) 433KB
Average sub-page data size: 389KB/page.
So, using an iPhone with different 3G browsing limits, you can view:
250MB /30 = 8.3 MB per day = 21 web page views per day
300MB /30 = 10 MB per day = 25 web page views per day
400MB /30 = 13.3 MB per day = 34 web page views per day
600MB /30 = 20 MB per day = 51 web page views per day
750MB /30 = 25 MB per day = 64 web page views per day
1.0 GB /30 = 33.3 MB per day = 85 web page views per day
5.0 GB /30 = 166.7 MB per day = 428 web page views per day
Think of how fast you can zip through different webpages with a 3G phone getting 600-1200 kbps. You could easily view the 21 pages per day of the 250MB/month data plan in 10-15 minutes waiting for a bus!
And remember, this doesn't even include all the other things people will be doing that use data:
* Google Maps (especially now with GPS!) - Very easy to use many MBs in one quick session of scrolling around a map. Have a route-following GPS navigation for 15 minutes could easily use 25MB.
* Sending and Receiving Email and attachments - Remember, No MMS for pictures! Other office-type and PDF documents will be sent around as well.
* Uploading Photos - Flickr, MobileMe etc.
* Online Chat via AIM/MSN/SKYPE
* Viewing Youtube, MMS-type video, and other online video - video can quickly use A LOT of bandwidth. 3-7 seconds per MB.
* Downloading applications and games
*Online multiplayer gaming
* Internet radio streaming
[B]* Downloading mp3s
Not to mention all the applications that will require internet access and server access to function....
I hope that many of these countries are able to get a better allotment of data usage on their plans in the future. I'm sure all the telecom companies just aren't used to hardly any data being used on their networks so they've kept prices high. Hopefully that will change with the iPhone and they'll realize how popular data usage will be and lower the rates as the volume of users using data increases.
Oh and check out this post I made about Rogers' OLD data rates before the iPhone was announced
How old are those rates?
Rogers not so much. Fido very much so. (that's the point.. woof!)
Is there a reason the FRENCH language button is underneath the dog with the pink wig?
How old are those rates?
They were the rates right until the iPhone 3G rates were announced... just 3-4 weeks ago I believe. The link in that article went to the main pricing page for smartphones. Funny how it is NOW broken!
EDIT: Apparently, those are still the RATES for non-iphone Smartphones?????
They were the rates right until the iPhone 3G rates were announced... just 3-4 weeks ago I believe. The link in that article went to the main pricing page for smartphones. Funny how it is NOW broken!
So one could infer that the data rates have gotten better with Rogers because of the iPhone?
Also, I can show you a new and simple object that will be included on the iPhone 3G Box set: Sim Ejector Tool (see picture). Basically, it's helpful to eject the Sim Card slot from the inside of the iPhone 3G.
It's a paperclip neutered of its original function!
Your last sentence is where my "reasoning" is coming from. I, as a consumer who works in a physical commodity industry, cannot see the justness of the prices being placed on a digital "invisible" commodity.
Yes, because it's digital, then that means there was hardly any work put into it to make it in the first place, and even if there was, trying to recoup that investment is just wrong if the incremental cost is tiny.
Typical greed.
The thing that kills me about all of the cell phone data plans and the broadband prices out there is that they are pretty much making pure profit off of all of these things. It's not like they have to "manufacture and distribute" an actual physical commodity. They just have to make sure that the network is open and up and running.
It would be like me charging someone to get onto my WiFi network at home. Once I covered all my expenses of the hardware and service that I have to pay, it is all profit and I don't have to lift a finger to do anything.... ANYTHING!
Just a hint, reliable cell towers are a lot more expensive to build and maintain than your WiFi network. Your network goes down, you can fix it at your leisure. A cell tower goes down, you have thousands of customers upset and without service, and repair must be done in a very timely manner.
Point I was making is that this is indicative of the entire problem with this whole launch in Canada right now. There is no clarity on any aspect of this and even Rogers can't agree with itself on what is what.
Makes it hard to make an informed decision with only 3 days to go don't you think?
Friday isn't a deadline. No one has to buy the iPhone on Friday. Personally, I'm waiting for someone I know to get one so I can see how good of a signal it can get in my workshop. That may be a couple weeks.