Target FireWire mode was the de facto and superior way to do troubleshooting or repairs on a drive, along with the quickest & most seamless way to do Migration Assistant.
I haven't seen this reported online yet, but Apple just put out the software update Migration and DVD/CD Sharing Update. It says "It provides enhanced customization capabilities and improved performance for migration over FireWire, Ethernet and wireless networks."
Apple obviously knows that people need to do migration without firewire and it looks like they are taking steps to make sure that works.
Using an Ars forum post as 'proof' is as valid as writing a Wikipedia page about yourself and using that as proof you are popular.
What rationale do you have that a multi-billion dollar, highly profitable company does no market research when designing new products? Does Apple really seem like a willy-nilly company to you?
That Steve Jobs said it in a 2003 interview with Forbes magazine and that it is corroborated by people who have worked at and with Apple.
What evidence do you have that they do market research? The burden of proof is on you not me.
Real pros need to get the bestest and the fastest; i.e., MacBook Pros and FW800 so there's not a problem.
If you're not a real pro, OR, are a pro but are willing to sacrifice horse power (CPU/GPU), expandability (CardBus), faster throughput (FW800), screen size and res, etc. for the smaller footprint of a Macbook, THEN you can grab a previous gen 2.4GHz MacBook refurb for $1050 at store.apple.com. Mind you, this was the TOP OF THE LINE Macbook till 48 hours ago.
By the time that machine is obsolete--say 2-3 years from now--the aluminum Macbooks will have USB3, or maybe even FW800.
So really, I don't know what all the effing bitching is about here.
Whining because you can't have the latest and the coolest without having to sacrifice FW400? Tough luck. Call the whaaaaambulance. And here's the world's tiniest violin playing a song just for you (T_T)/\\
We like the new casing and over all features. If the MB simply had FW life would be grand. Before you say "get a MBP then!". I already have a Mac Pro for power usage. Some of us were hoping for a decent priced MB. I guess we just assumed FW wouldn't be missing.
This may be the latest, but it just missed the mark from greatest.
Jobs is such a liar and a charlatan. Yeah he's rich but he's the same egotistical "form over function" dictator he was before.
The alu Macbook is a closed device that offers less functionality than its predecessor. That's not progress.
At a much higher price too. The previous generation was 400mhz faster at $1299 with basically the same specs. Apple has basically made the entire line $3-400 more expensive. Let us be clear here, the consumer Macbook line more or less died on tuesday and we got a long awaited replacement for the 12" Powerbook in its place.
1) Several posters have said that Apple have done market research and decided that most users don't use FW. This MAY be true but Apple have NOT and do not do market research. See link here. Frankly I suspect the use of FW devices, among Mac users, is higher than we think here.
Apple doesn't conduct market research to determine what people want as he said, i.e., "So you can't go out and ask people, you know, what the next big [thing.] There's a great quote by Henry Ford, right? He said, 'If I'd have asked my customers what they wanted, they would have told me "A faster horse."
However, Apple does buy all the IMS/AC Neilsen type data re unit/$ sales/market share and intent to purchase data. This is evidenced by what Jobs and top management have said, presented or posted in their keynotes. quarterly reports, financial conferences and annual meetings, as well as printed in the quarterly & annual reports,
Apple is obviously well aware of what is occurring in the market place. Particularly when they created the market.
Great read. FORTUNE: Steve Jobs Speaks Out.
On managing through the economic downturn
"We've had one of these before, when the dot-com bubble burst. What I told our company was that we were just going to invest our way through the downturn, that we weren't going to lay off people, that we'd taken a tremendous amount of effort to get them into Apple in the first place -- the last thing we were going to do is lay them off. And we were going to keep funding. In fact we were going to up our R&D budget so that we would be ahead of our competitors when the downturn was over. And that's exactly what we did. And it worked. And that's exactly what we'll do this time."
Frankly I suspect the use of FW devices, among Mac users, is higher than we think here.
And we're at an impasse here, because I suspect exactly the opposite. Most Mac users are just like most computer users in general: they're not "pro"s, they're not power users, they don't follow technology or rumors of upcoming products. They surf the web, send emails, and organize their pictures and music. And that's it.
It would shock me if even 5% of Macbooks sold have ever had a Firewire device plugged into them.
ah... if you need firewire.. and its part of your profession, or even if it isn't but you take your work serious, then get the serious version of the laptop. get a macbook pro. it has firewire.
but all that aside, i do sympathize. i for one want am like you. i can't stand when apple assume that things have become old technology. i hope that we can all support each other in the push against apple doing these sort of things. and help us bring back firewire, and VGA output,... and scsi, and serial ports for printers, and floppies. i miss the 5.25 floppies. you know? sometimes i only need to save 516k of data /sarcasm
Sorry, but your flippant argument doesn't seem to hold much water. All of those things your cite (SCSI, serial ports, floppies) were replaced by superior technologies that in many cases were also backward compatible. What is out there that has been shown to be more versatile than FireWire?
It's not that just all of those FW-based peripherals for which the MacBook (and iBook before it) were designed to be used with (in concert with iLife, per Apple) are now relegated to the scrapyard, it's that there's no new technology that's out there that can do the same job as FW has been doing. If you're going to replace a technology, replace it with something better. People can understand that kind of path toward obsolescence but not the kind of path Apple has taken this week.
Jobs might be sicker than he can admit, and that might be impairing his judgement!
WHO ACTUALLY REALLY CARES IF THE CHASSIS IS CARVED OUT OF A SOLID BLOCK OF METAL WiITH A 1/1000 OF AN INCH TOLERANCE?! THIS DOES NOT INFLUENCE MY COMPUTING EXPERIENCE VERY MUCH AT ALL. THE OLD ALUMINUM CASES WERE VERY STURDY!
BLUE RAY TO EXPENSIVE? NOT TRUE. SONY VAIO FW LINE OF LAPTOPS OFFERS BLURAY READER/WRITER AS A 150/300 OPTiON.
NO FIREWIRE ON THE MACBOOK? HELLO? ESATA? AGAIN HELLO? ONLY USB? NOW YOUR STEPPING BACKWARDS.
NEW GESTURES? FINE. BIGGER TOUCH AREA FINE. BUT WHERE IS SOME REAL INNOVATION LIKE MAKING THE WHOLE SCREEN A TOUCH AREA????
COUPLE MORE STUNTS LIKE THIS AND I AM NO LONGER IN THE BUY ANY NEW APPLE COMPUTER CAMP!
All that I know for sure is I will not spend one bloody dime on an Apple notebook until FireWire is back on the MacBook. I'm not going to spend an extra $500 to get the MacBook Pro.
I've been a Mac user for 10 years, and for the first time ever I am considering buying a Dell.
Ha, ha, ha.....buying a Dell....you'll regret that move. You'll come to the conclusion that $700 is less than the frustration factor of having to deal with Windows. I personally switched to Mac two years ago, and have to use a PC at work. There is not a work day that goes by that I don't cuss out my work computer. Trust me $700 amortized over 2-3 years is worth it. (BTW you will probably upgrade the Dell in 1-2 years, at least that was my previous experience).
Apple doesn't conduct market research to determine what people want as he said, i.e., "So you can't go out and ask people, you know, what the next big [thing.] There's a great quote by Henry Ford, right? He said, 'If I'd have asked my customers what they wanted, they would have told me "A faster horse."
However, Apple does buy all the IMS/AC Neilsen type data re unit/$ sales/market share and intent to purchase data. This is evidenced by what Jobs and top management have said, presented or posted in their keynotes. quarterly reports, financial conferences and annual meetings, as well as printed in the quarterly & annual reports,
Apple is obviously well aware of what is occurring in the market place. Particularly when they created the market.
Great read. FORTUNE: Steve Jobs Speaks Out.
On managing through the economic downturn
"We've had one of these before, when the dot-com bubble burst. What I told our company was that we were just going to invest our way through the downturn, that we weren't going to lay off people, that we'd taken a tremendous amount of effort to get them into Apple in the first place -- the last thing we were going to do is lay them off. And we were going to keep funding. In fact we were going to up our R&D budget so that we would be ahead of our competitors when the downturn was over. And that's exactly what we did. And it worked. And that's exactly what we'll do this time."
Ok. Nice points. Apple probably are aware of the FW market penetration in peripheral devices. I won't argue that point.
I think some here feel that Apple went out and performed a market research study to see if users wanted FW ports in the new MB and I doubt that that happened. IMO, they've extrapolated the demand for FW on the new MBs based on data on FW market share in peripherals.
You've just hit upon the crux of the issue. The Macbook was a good computer for field recording and ingesting of video. Much like the MPAA and RIAA consider an illegally downloaded song a "missing CD album" sale ..Apple must be looking at each Macbook sale as a potential Macbook Pro sale that didn't happen.
Removing FW from the Macbook removes that ability and pushes people towards the MBP. It's a benefit to Apple but does nothing for people.
Is it wrong for a consumer to seek a financial benefit and work towards their own best self interest?
Except of course if the customer chooses not to buy from Apple at all. Apple looses money if a Macbook is purchased over a Macbook Pro. However, they lose a lot more if they buy the xps1330 instead
I don't know what the big deal is. The MacBook is obviously an entry level system designed for students, average consumers that don't need tons of horsepower or don't have the $$$ for a Pro-level computer.
This thing missed the entry level mark by about $500. This is a mid to upper range premium computer.
How in the world could that possibly surprise you? Apple has never used more two USB ports on their consumer and pro machines since it pioneered the use of USB on its PowerBook 3G "M5353" back in May 1999, expect for its 17" model which still has 3 USB ports.
Now, if you want to complain that you lost a port but didn't get an extra USB2.0 to replace it, I understand that argument, especially on the MBP.
That's what i was meaning...if i'm running Logic Pro on my Powerbook G4 with 1 usb for ext HDD, 1usb for mouse(and USB key for transfers) and FW400 for Motu Traveller...i'm screwed now.
And we're at an impasse here, because I suspect exactly the opposite. Most Mac users are just like most computer users in general: they're not "pro"s, they're not power users, they don't follow technology or rumors of upcoming products. They surf the web, send emails, and organize their pictures and music. And that's it.
It would shock me if even 5% of Macbooks sold have ever had a Firewire device plugged into them.
Well then we'll have to agree to disagree.
However, if you go to Best Buy and buy a external HDD, almost all are USB. There are a few USB/FW but most are pure USB.
But when you go to the Apple store or buy from the online Apple store there is a great selection of FW HDDs. Even FW 800 drives which I've never seen at a BB.
I don't know where Mac users get their external HDDs or peripherals in general, but if they get them at an Apple store, which isn't improbably, there is a good chance its FW.
That's why I suspect, but have no proof, that FW use among Mac users is higher than for pc users.
Don't forget flatbed scanners. I never had anything but slow performance from one that used USB, probably because they cheaped out and used USB 1.1 or something rather than USB2. FW400 was a Godsend to replace connecting scanners to any Mac with a SCSI cable.
And we're at an impasse here, because I suspect exactly the opposite. Most Mac users are just like most computer users in general: they're not "pro"s, they're not power users, they don't follow technology or rumors of upcoming products. They surf the web, send emails, and organize their pictures and music. And that's it.
It would shock me if even 5% of Macbooks sold have ever had a Firewire device plugged into them.
Maybe... and maybe that's what's annoying - for the hardcore apple fans, the musicians who made apple popular by using macs on stage, the video producers and post processors, the photographers - effectively all the 'cool' creatives who made apple a brand that the students (who are buying them now) wanted to be associated with...
maybe it's annoying for THEM to see that apple is becoming like any other cheap notebook producer and making decisions for the masses while claiming (and pricing) their machines as if they were still special and made for pros.
Ha, ha, ha.....buying a Dell....you'll regret that move. You'll come to the conclusion that $700 is less than the frustration factor of having to deal with Windows. I personally switched to Mac two years ago, and have to use a PC at work. There is not a work day that goes by that I don't cuss out my work computer. Trust me $700 amortized over 2-3 years is worth it. (BTW you will probably upgrade the Dell in 1-2 years, at least that was my previous experience).
Unfortunately as aesthetics increasingly the driving force, the hardware frustration of Mac is getting closer to the software frustration of windows. Not there yet, but wait a year or two until Ive decides to base the entire laptop line off of the air.
Comments
Target FireWire mode was the de facto and superior way to do troubleshooting or repairs on a drive, along with the quickest & most seamless way to do Migration Assistant.
I haven't seen this reported online yet, but Apple just put out the software update Migration and DVD/CD Sharing Update. It says "It provides enhanced customization capabilities and improved performance for migration over FireWire, Ethernet and wireless networks."
Apple obviously knows that people need to do migration without firewire and it looks like they are taking steps to make sure that works.
Using an Ars forum post as 'proof' is as valid as writing a Wikipedia page about yourself and using that as proof you are popular.
What rationale do you have that a multi-billion dollar, highly profitable company does no market research when designing new products? Does Apple really seem like a willy-nilly company to you?
That Steve Jobs said it in a 2003 interview with Forbes magazine and that it is corroborated by people who have worked at and with Apple.
What evidence do you have that they do market research? The burden of proof is on you not me.
Real pros need to get the bestest and the fastest; i.e., MacBook Pros and FW800 so there's not a problem.
If you're not a real pro, OR, are a pro but are willing to sacrifice horse power (CPU/GPU), expandability (CardBus), faster throughput (FW800), screen size and res, etc. for the smaller footprint of a Macbook, THEN you can grab a previous gen 2.4GHz MacBook refurb for $1050 at store.apple.com. Mind you, this was the TOP OF THE LINE Macbook till 48 hours ago.
By the time that machine is obsolete--say 2-3 years from now--the aluminum Macbooks will have USB3, or maybe even FW800.
So really, I don't know what all the effing bitching is about here.
Whining because you can't have the latest and the coolest without having to sacrifice FW400? Tough luck. Call the whaaaaambulance. And here's the world's tiniest violin playing a song just for you (T_T)/\\
We like the new casing and over all features. If the MB simply had FW life would be grand. Before you say "get a MBP then!". I already have a Mac Pro for power usage. Some of us were hoping for a decent priced MB. I guess we just assumed FW wouldn't be missing.
This may be the latest, but it just missed the mark from greatest.
Jobs is such a liar and a charlatan. Yeah he's rich but he's the same egotistical "form over function" dictator he was before.
The alu Macbook is a closed device that offers less functionality than its predecessor. That's not progress.
At a much higher price too. The previous generation was 400mhz faster at $1299 with basically the same specs. Apple has basically made the entire line $3-400 more expensive. Let us be clear here, the consumer Macbook line more or less died on tuesday and we got a long awaited replacement for the 12" Powerbook in its place.
Several points that I think need to be made.
1) Several posters have said that Apple have done market research and decided that most users don't use FW. This MAY be true but Apple have NOT and do not do market research. See link here. Frankly I suspect the use of FW devices, among Mac users, is higher than we think here.
Apple doesn't conduct market research to determine what people want as he said, i.e., "So you can't go out and ask people, you know, what the next big [thing.] There's a great quote by Henry Ford, right? He said, 'If I'd have asked my customers what they wanted, they would have told me "A faster horse."
However, Apple does buy all the IMS/AC Neilsen type data re unit/$ sales/market share and intent to purchase data. This is evidenced by what Jobs and top management have said, presented or posted in their keynotes. quarterly reports, financial conferences and annual meetings, as well as printed in the quarterly & annual reports,
Apple is obviously well aware of what is occurring in the market place. Particularly when they created the market.
Great read. FORTUNE: Steve Jobs Speaks Out.
On managing through the economic downturn
"We've had one of these before, when the dot-com bubble burst. What I told our company was that we were just going to invest our way through the downturn, that we weren't going to lay off people, that we'd taken a tremendous amount of effort to get them into Apple in the first place -- the last thing we were going to do is lay them off. And we were going to keep funding. In fact we were going to up our R&D budget so that we would be ahead of our competitors when the downturn was over. And that's exactly what we did. And it worked. And that's exactly what we'll do this time."
http://money.cnn.com/galleries/2008/...une/index.html
Frankly I suspect the use of FW devices, among Mac users, is higher than we think here.
And we're at an impasse here, because I suspect exactly the opposite. Most Mac users are just like most computer users in general: they're not "pro"s, they're not power users, they don't follow technology or rumors of upcoming products. They surf the web, send emails, and organize their pictures and music. And that's it.
It would shock me if even 5% of Macbooks sold have ever had a Firewire device plugged into them.
ah... if you need firewire.. and its part of your profession, or even if it isn't but you take your work serious, then get the serious version of the laptop. get a macbook pro. it has firewire.
but all that aside, i do sympathize. i for one want am like you. i can't stand when apple assume that things have become old technology. i hope that we can all support each other in the push against apple doing these sort of things. and help us bring back firewire, and VGA output,... and scsi, and serial ports for printers, and floppies. i miss the 5.25 floppies. you know? sometimes i only need to save 516k of data /sarcasm
Sorry, but your flippant argument doesn't seem to hold much water. All of those things your cite (SCSI, serial ports, floppies) were replaced by superior technologies that in many cases were also backward compatible. What is out there that has been shown to be more versatile than FireWire?
It's not that just all of those FW-based peripherals for which the MacBook (and iBook before it) were designed to be used with (in concert with iLife, per Apple) are now relegated to the scrapyard, it's that there's no new technology that's out there that can do the same job as FW has been doing. If you're going to replace a technology, replace it with something better. People can understand that kind of path toward obsolescence but not the kind of path Apple has taken this week.
WHO ACTUALLY REALLY CARES IF THE CHASSIS IS CARVED OUT OF A SOLID BLOCK OF METAL WiITH A 1/1000 OF AN INCH TOLERANCE?! THIS DOES NOT INFLUENCE MY COMPUTING EXPERIENCE VERY MUCH AT ALL. THE OLD ALUMINUM CASES WERE VERY STURDY!
BLUE RAY TO EXPENSIVE? NOT TRUE. SONY VAIO FW LINE OF LAPTOPS OFFERS BLURAY READER/WRITER AS A 150/300 OPTiON.
NO FIREWIRE ON THE MACBOOK? HELLO? ESATA? AGAIN HELLO? ONLY USB? NOW YOUR STEPPING BACKWARDS.
NEW GESTURES? FINE. BIGGER TOUCH AREA FINE. BUT WHERE IS SOME REAL INNOVATION LIKE MAKING THE WHOLE SCREEN A TOUCH AREA????
COUPLE MORE STUNTS LIKE THIS AND I AM NO LONGER IN THE BUY ANY NEW APPLE COMPUTER CAMP!
All that I know for sure is I will not spend one bloody dime on an Apple notebook until FireWire is back on the MacBook. I'm not going to spend an extra $500 to get the MacBook Pro.
I've been a Mac user for 10 years, and for the first time ever I am considering buying a Dell.
Ha, ha, ha.....buying a Dell....you'll regret that move. You'll come to the conclusion that $700 is less than the frustration factor of having to deal with Windows. I personally switched to Mac two years ago, and have to use a PC at work. There is not a work day that goes by that I don't cuss out my work computer. Trust me $700 amortized over 2-3 years is worth it. (BTW you will probably upgrade the Dell in 1-2 years, at least that was my previous experience).
Sent from my iPhone
Doesn't that text usually end up at the bottom of the mail (appended at the end) and not in the middle?
Apple doesn't conduct market research to determine what people want as he said, i.e., "So you can't go out and ask people, you know, what the next big [thing.] There's a great quote by Henry Ford, right? He said, 'If I'd have asked my customers what they wanted, they would have told me "A faster horse."
However, Apple does buy all the IMS/AC Neilsen type data re unit/$ sales/market share and intent to purchase data. This is evidenced by what Jobs and top management have said, presented or posted in their keynotes. quarterly reports, financial conferences and annual meetings, as well as printed in the quarterly & annual reports,
Apple is obviously well aware of what is occurring in the market place. Particularly when they created the market.
Great read. FORTUNE: Steve Jobs Speaks Out.
On managing through the economic downturn
"We've had one of these before, when the dot-com bubble burst. What I told our company was that we were just going to invest our way through the downturn, that we weren't going to lay off people, that we'd taken a tremendous amount of effort to get them into Apple in the first place -- the last thing we were going to do is lay them off. And we were going to keep funding. In fact we were going to up our R&D budget so that we would be ahead of our competitors when the downturn was over. And that's exactly what we did. And it worked. And that's exactly what we'll do this time."
http://money.cnn.com/galleries/2008/...une/index.html
Ok. Nice points. Apple probably are aware of the FW market penetration in peripheral devices. I won't argue that point.
I think some here feel that Apple went out and performed a market research study to see if users wanted FW ports in the new MB and I doubt that that happened. IMO, they've extrapolated the demand for FW on the new MBs based on data on FW market share in peripherals.
But have they considered legacy device support?
You've just hit upon the crux of the issue. The Macbook was a good computer for field recording and ingesting of video. Much like the MPAA and RIAA consider an illegally downloaded song a "missing CD album" sale ..Apple must be looking at each Macbook sale as a potential Macbook Pro sale that didn't happen.
Removing FW from the Macbook removes that ability and pushes people towards the MBP. It's a benefit to Apple but does nothing for people.
Is it wrong for a consumer to seek a financial benefit and work towards their own best self interest?
Except of course if the customer chooses not to buy from Apple at all. Apple looses money if a Macbook is purchased over a Macbook Pro. However, they lose a lot more if they buy the xps1330 instead
I don't know what the big deal is. The MacBook is obviously an entry level system designed for students, average consumers that don't need tons of horsepower or don't have the $$$ for a Pro-level computer.
This thing missed the entry level mark by about $500. This is a mid to upper range premium computer.
How in the world could that possibly surprise you? Apple has never used more two USB ports on their consumer and pro machines since it pioneered the use of USB on its PowerBook 3G "M5353" back in May 1999, expect for its 17" model which still has 3 USB ports.
Now, if you want to complain that you lost a port but didn't get an extra USB2.0 to replace it, I understand that argument, especially on the MBP.
That's what i was meaning...if i'm running Logic Pro on my Powerbook G4 with 1 usb for ext HDD, 1usb for mouse(and USB key for transfers) and FW400 for Motu Traveller...i'm screwed now.
And we're at an impasse here, because I suspect exactly the opposite. Most Mac users are just like most computer users in general: they're not "pro"s, they're not power users, they don't follow technology or rumors of upcoming products. They surf the web, send emails, and organize their pictures and music. And that's it.
It would shock me if even 5% of Macbooks sold have ever had a Firewire device plugged into them.
Well then we'll have to agree to disagree.
However, if you go to Best Buy and buy a external HDD, almost all are USB. There are a few USB/FW but most are pure USB.
But when you go to the Apple store or buy from the online Apple store there is a great selection of FW HDDs. Even FW 800 drives which I've never seen at a BB.
I don't know where Mac users get their external HDDs or peripherals in general, but if they get them at an Apple store, which isn't improbably, there is a good chance its FW.
That's why I suspect, but have no proof, that FW use among Mac users is higher than for pc users.
Don't forget flatbed scanners. I never had anything but slow performance from one that used USB, probably because they cheaped out and used USB 1.1 or something rather than USB2. FW400 was a Godsend to replace connecting scanners to any Mac with a SCSI cable.
um...and AUDIO INTERFACES!!!
M O T U !!!
I wish a SONY Vaio TZ could be hacked so we could put Leopard on it- <sigh>
Go for it anyway. Same price as a Macbook Pro. Well, not exactly.
http://reviews.cnet.com/laptops/sony...-32518039.html
And we're at an impasse here, because I suspect exactly the opposite. Most Mac users are just like most computer users in general: they're not "pro"s, they're not power users, they don't follow technology or rumors of upcoming products. They surf the web, send emails, and organize their pictures and music. And that's it.
It would shock me if even 5% of Macbooks sold have ever had a Firewire device plugged into them.
Maybe... and maybe that's what's annoying - for the hardcore apple fans, the musicians who made apple popular by using macs on stage, the video producers and post processors, the photographers - effectively all the 'cool' creatives who made apple a brand that the students (who are buying them now) wanted to be associated with...
maybe it's annoying for THEM to see that apple is becoming like any other cheap notebook producer and making decisions for the masses while claiming (and pricing) their machines as if they were still special and made for pros.
Ha, ha, ha.....buying a Dell....you'll regret that move. You'll come to the conclusion that $700 is less than the frustration factor of having to deal with Windows. I personally switched to Mac two years ago, and have to use a PC at work. There is not a work day that goes by that I don't cuss out my work computer. Trust me $700 amortized over 2-3 years is worth it. (BTW you will probably upgrade the Dell in 1-2 years, at least that was my previous experience).
Unfortunately as aesthetics increasingly the driving force, the hardware frustration of Mac is getting closer to the software frustration of windows. Not there yet, but wait a year or two until Ive decides to base the entire laptop line off of the air.