That is incorrect. Proposition 8 will not take away any rights from gays and lesbians so far as insurance, hospital rights, etc.
The biggest issue is that gay marriage will be taught to kids in school (as early as Kindergarten). Parents should have the right to teach their kids morals. It should not be controlled by the government. For that matter, I don't think marriage should be taught at all in school, but I guess that's for another debate.
This is simply not true. In fact, California State Superintendent of Schools Jack O'Connell has come out publicly and stated that prop 8 WILL NOT effect what is taught in public schools. Additionally the California Teachers' Association is encouraging all CA citizens to VOTE NO on Prop 8.
Or maybe homosexuality has benefits in the whole scheme of life, a benefit not obvious to the population (such as sickle-cell anemia). There was research recently indicating that homosexuals benefited heterosexual couples in that there was little to no competition with the heterosexuals yet they contributed with parenting, food gathering and protection, thus increasing viability of offspring.
That sounds biologically reasonable. There is also a scientific argument that while it's not normal, as in "the norm", it's a very natural part of being a complex, sexual dimorphic species. If a person can be born with both sexual organs, in other words a simultaneous* hermaphrodite, why can't a person be born with the physical organs of one sex but with the phycological sexual orientation of another? The Lord works in mysterious ways. Of course, you'll find many who think that hermaphrodites don't exist despite clear evidence throughout nature and that homosexuality is a choice, despite the assurance that thy never had to choose if they are asked.
PS: The movie Religious is quite funny. Bill Maher talks to a guy in Winter Park, Florida who runs a company that teaches people to not be gay. Both him and his wife used to be gay, so he must know what he is talking about.
* As opposed to sequential hermaphrodites, like what was talked about in Jurassic Park.
Because when the kids at school find out the adopted kid has 2 gays for parents he will get his butt kicked all thru school.
I'm not sure what your point is. How is your comment any different than saying a school shouldn't let in a black kid because he'll get his butt kicked? Or if his parents are blind, or deaf, or in a wheelchair?
And really, if you're going to create an account to troll, "3rd Reich"? So much for subtlety.
Quote:
Originally Posted by frugality
Why do we discriminate against adults having consensual sex with children?
Why do we discriminate against marrying a dog our a goat?
Children and animals aren't considered to be in a position to consent. Bogus comparisons.
Quote:
Originally Posted by eric42
I feel this is a tremendously bad move on Apple's part.
First, as a public company they shouldn't contribute to something that (obviously) doesn't represent all of their investors. I liken it to a union contriubting to a political campaign or party. No matter who they support it's very likely that a large segment of the membership will fundamentally disagree with the decision.
Second, why take a side? As a company who should be in the business of selling its products to the general population why risk alienating a large segment of that population. This is especially true given the polarizing nature of this particular issue.
If this were years back and the issue were ending slavery or segregation, or giving women the right to vote, would you feel the same way?
I do understand why various religions don't want to acknowledge certain legal unions as marriage, and I agree with that. The Catholic church won't marry various heterosexual couples if they aren't both Catholic. They have that right, but to not allow a legal union because of sexuality is a Civil Rights violation.
For comparison, it was only in 1967 that the Supreme Court ruled in Loving v. Virginia that interracial marriages were a civil right. How long before the Supreme Court makes it unconstitutional for those Red States to deny gay marriage?
That is one reason I support Prop 8. At some point legalized gay marriage will be forced on religious sects, and churches will be sued unless they perform gay marriages. That goes beyond tolerating this disgusting behavior. That infringes on my rights and my beliefs.
Why not legalize polygamy? That's a case where political parties have stopped a religion from the right to their beliefs.
Seems the political left is a little one sided to me.
This is simply not true. In fact, California State Superintendent of Schools Jack O'Connell has come out publicly and stated that prop 8 WILL NOT effect what is taught in public schools. Additionally the California Teachers' Association is encouraging all CA citizens to VOTE NO on Prop 8.
Hell, if Prop 8 passes and gay marriage is banned, the schools should start teaching kids about homosexuality just to piss off the bigots.
This from a company who had a rainbow Apple logo in the past. With the company so close to the city of Nancy boys ( San Francisco) got to figure of them whispered the idea to Jobs when they were sharing a night of love. He is way too thin and stylish to be hetro.
The Republik of Kalifornia is already the laughing stock of the nation leting the Nancy's marry will only add fuel to the fire. Why should a lousy 2 % of the population dictate terms to the majority?
Ban gay marriage and execute those 4 judges who saw that we voted against this before and told us our votes do not count
What a waste of money.
For you Nancy boys who want gay marriage go suck a pickle
Marriage used to only be between two people of the same race. For 98 years that was the law in California until the California Supreme Court declared the law unconstitutional in 1948 (Perez v. Sharp). Those people who argue that gay marriage doesn't fit the "traditional" definition of marriage and that gay marriage will ruin the institution are using the same exact argument racists in California used to justify keeping the ban on interracial marriages. It was wrong then and it is wrong now. Note No on Prop 8.
Marriage is between a man and a woman. What's next......allowing people to get married to a member of their own familiy............or peradventure their dog (after all don't we love our animals),cat,etc.......My rights are being taken away when I can't marry a object. When,where does it stop? I love my toothpaste - can I marry that? Why not?
Apple should not be getting involved into politics. It will only divide and exclude people.
Marriage used to only be between two people of the same race. For 98 years that was the law in California until the California Supreme Court declared the law unconstitutional in 1948 (Perez v. Sharp). Those people who argue that gay marriage doesn't fit the "traditional" definition of marriage and that gay marriage will ruin the institution are using the same exact argument racists in California used to justify keeping the ban on interracial marriages. It was wrong then and it is wrong now. Note No on Prop 8.
For those who a "pro" prop 8, please explain exactly how two people of the same sex who love each other getting married adversely affects you or anyone else in any way. Seriously, there are much better things to get pissed off about e.g. torture, child abuse, etc. etc. try directing your energies towards ridding the world of things like that before you start trying to interfere with other people's loving relationships.
Explain why?! It's not a matter of affecting one on a personal level, but it will eventually as the society reaches lower and lower levels. If you don't care that the mores of the society go to shit then by all means let's all support this.
Want proof? All societies of the past have been destroyed solely due to the lowering of the mores of that society. Every single one.
It's unethical for two members of the same sex to engage in sexual intercourse let alone marriage.
AKA Canada, we have had Gay/Lesbian marriage since 2003 and there has been no destruction of our society. That Apple has taken the proper step of taking a stand against an improper ideal.
The more companies that are willing to be socially responsible the better this world will be.
I am proud of them for taking some the funds that I have invested in them (stock holder for 12 years) for the good of others.
What truly saddens me is that so many people are so insecure as to feel threatened by something that in the end has NO effect one them.
I will regretfully not be buying products from Apple for a year and perhaps longer.
I will also not be purchasing Apple stock.
Gay marriage is not just a civil rights issue it is also a moral issue. I object to my government blessing as acceptable what I view as immoral and against biological nature.
I have no objections to civil unions provided they are available to anyone who wants to establish a domestic partnership irregardless of sexual relations or not.
The thousands of dollars that I have spent on Apple products over the years won't make much of a difference but it will make me feel better and perhaps others will magnify the impact.
If Apple wants to vote with their dollars, I will vote with mine.
At some point legalized gay marriage will be forced on religious sects, and churches will be sued unless they perform gay marriages.
Are you high?
The catholic church has forbidden women from becoming priests for centuries and I'll be shocked if that ever changes. You really think people can get religions to change by suing them?
That goes beyond tolerating this disgusting behavior. That infringes on my rights and my beliefs.
If we jump back only a handful of decades I'm sure those exact words were stated about interracial marriage. Are you really that intolerant of people acting as God and/or nature made them? I bet the idea that we'll have a black president in under 2 weeks must keep you up at night.
JOKE: a little self deprecating humor to highlight the ridiculousness of the term: The Gay Agenda
The Homosexual Agenda
6:00 am Gym
8:00 am Breakfast (oatmeal and egg whites)
9:00 am Hair appointment
10:00 am Shopping
12:00 PM Brunch
2:00 PM
1) Assume complete control of the US Federal, State and Local Governments as well as all other national governments
2) Recruit all straight youngsters to our debauched lifestyle
3) Destroy all healthy heterosexual marriages
4) Replace all school counselors in grades K-12 with agents of Colombian and Jamaican drug cartels
5) Establish planetary chain of "homo breeding gulags" where over medicated imprisoned straight women are turned into artificially impregnated baby factories to produce prepubescent love slaves for our devotedly pederastic gay leadership
6) Bulldoze all houses of worship
7) Secure total control of the INTERNET and all mass media for the exclusive use of child pornographers
2:30 PM Get Forty Winks of Beauty Rest to prevent facial wrinkles from stress of world conquest
4:00 PM Cocktails
6:00 PM Light Dinner (soup, salad, with Chardonnay)
8:00 PM Theater
11:00 PM Bed (du jour)
damn, I was so busy with bulldozing houses of worship I forgot to get my beauty sleep.
It's my opinion that the government shouldn't be issuing marriage licenses at all. It should be a contractual agreement between people that doesn't involve the government except in cases of fraud or dishonest dealing. As long as children are protected, we could enter into domestic contracts that might be prepared by a church or a lawyer or the office supply store.
Gay marriage would eliminate the validity of Brittany Spears' 55 hour marriage. Duh.
The "morals of society" have been getting destroyed since, oh, I don't know, since society began. This is a false argument that pretends the family lives of Lassie and Leave it to Beaver were actually once real "in better days". They never were. Not in reality or in caricature.
Therein lies the problem....the arguments are of human origin. Seek the arguments that are God's arguments. I'd love to go more into that, but I have the feeling that wouldn't go over well with this crowd... (and could get banned or locked, because we live in an intolerant society...)
And therein lies another problem... my understanding of God's arguments would go to defeating Prop 8, not upholding it. I'm sorry, but as humans, we can only come from a point of understanding that is colored by our humanness. As much as either of us try to understand what is intended for us by a higher power, it is pure hubris to think that either one of us really and truly understand.
And if you you launch into an argument on Faith, you will find that we will differ on what Faith means as well. For to me, Faith means being willing to ask more questions when I am frightened as opposed to believing that all the answers worked out.
Comments
That is incorrect. Proposition 8 will not take away any rights from gays and lesbians so far as insurance, hospital rights, etc.
The biggest issue is that gay marriage will be taught to kids in school (as early as Kindergarten). Parents should have the right to teach their kids morals. It should not be controlled by the government. For that matter, I don't think marriage should be taught at all in school, but I guess that's for another debate.
This is simply not true. In fact, California State Superintendent of Schools Jack O'Connell has come out publicly and stated that prop 8 WILL NOT effect what is taught in public schools. Additionally the California Teachers' Association is encouraging all CA citizens to VOTE NO on Prop 8.
Or maybe homosexuality has benefits in the whole scheme of life, a benefit not obvious to the population (such as sickle-cell anemia). There was research recently indicating that homosexuals benefited heterosexual couples in that there was little to no competition with the heterosexuals yet they contributed with parenting, food gathering and protection, thus increasing viability of offspring.
That sounds biologically reasonable. There is also a scientific argument that while it's not normal, as in "the norm", it's a very natural part of being a complex, sexual dimorphic species. If a person can be born with both sexual organs, in other words a simultaneous* hermaphrodite, why can't a person be born with the physical organs of one sex but with the phycological sexual orientation of another? The Lord works in mysterious ways. Of course, you'll find many who think that hermaphrodites don't exist despite clear evidence throughout nature and that homosexuality is a choice, despite the assurance that thy never had to choose if they are asked.
PS: The movie Religious is quite funny. Bill Maher talks to a guy in Winter Park, Florida who runs a company that teaches people to not be gay. Both him and his wife used to be gay, so he must know what he is talking about.
* As opposed to sequential hermaphrodites, like what was talked about in Jurassic Park.
Because when the kids at school find out the adopted kid has 2 gays for parents he will get his butt kicked all thru school.
I'm not sure what your point is. How is your comment any different than saying a school shouldn't let in a black kid because he'll get his butt kicked? Or if his parents are blind, or deaf, or in a wheelchair?
And really, if you're going to create an account to troll, "3rd Reich"? So much for subtlety.
Why do we discriminate against adults having consensual sex with children?
Why do we discriminate against marrying a dog our a goat?
Children and animals aren't considered to be in a position to consent. Bogus comparisons.
I feel this is a tremendously bad move on Apple's part.
First, as a public company they shouldn't contribute to something that (obviously) doesn't represent all of their investors. I liken it to a union contriubting to a political campaign or party. No matter who they support it's very likely that a large segment of the membership will fundamentally disagree with the decision.
Second, why take a side? As a company who should be in the business of selling its products to the general population why risk alienating a large segment of that population. This is especially true given the polarizing nature of this particular issue.
If this were years back and the issue were ending slavery or segregation, or giving women the right to vote, would you feel the same way?
This thread is going to be fun!
I do understand why various religions don't want to acknowledge certain legal unions as marriage, and I agree with that. The Catholic church won't marry various heterosexual couples if they aren't both Catholic. They have that right, but to not allow a legal union because of sexuality is a Civil Rights violation.
For comparison, it was only in 1967 that the Supreme Court ruled in Loving v. Virginia that interracial marriages were a civil right. How long before the Supreme Court makes it unconstitutional for those Red States to deny gay marriage?
That is one reason I support Prop 8. At some point legalized gay marriage will be forced on religious sects, and churches will be sued unless they perform gay marriages. That goes beyond tolerating this disgusting behavior. That infringes on my rights and my beliefs.
Why not legalize polygamy? That's a case where political parties have stopped a religion from the right to their beliefs.
Seems the political left is a little one sided to me.
This is simply not true. In fact, California State Superintendent of Schools Jack O'Connell has come out publicly and stated that prop 8 WILL NOT effect what is taught in public schools. Additionally the California Teachers' Association is encouraging all CA citizens to VOTE NO on Prop 8.
Hell, if Prop 8 passes and gay marriage is banned, the schools should start teaching kids about homosexuality just to piss off the bigots.
This thread is hilarious. And they say gays are drama queens.
This from a company who had a rainbow Apple logo in the past. With the company so close to the city of Nancy boys ( San Francisco) got to figure of them whispered the idea to Jobs when they were sharing a night of love. He is way too thin and stylish to be hetro.
The Republik of Kalifornia is already the laughing stock of the nation leting the Nancy's marry will only add fuel to the fire. Why should a lousy 2 % of the population dictate terms to the majority?
Ban gay marriage and execute those 4 judges who saw that we voted against this before and told us our votes do not count
What a waste of money.
For you Nancy boys who want gay marriage go suck a pickle
Marriage used to only be between two people of the same race. For 98 years that was the law in California until the California Supreme Court declared the law unconstitutional in 1948 (Perez v. Sharp). Those people who argue that gay marriage doesn't fit the "traditional" definition of marriage and that gay marriage will ruin the institution are using the same exact argument racists in California used to justify keeping the ban on interracial marriages. It was wrong then and it is wrong now. Note No on Prop 8.
This is simply wrong.
Marriage is between a man and a woman. What's next......allowing people to get married to a member of their own familiy............or peradventure their dog (after all don't we love our animals),cat,etc.......My rights are being taken away when I can't marry a object. When,where does it stop? I love my toothpaste - can I marry that? Why not?
Apple should not be getting involved into politics. It will only divide and exclude people.
Marriage used to only be between two people of the same race. For 98 years that was the law in California until the California Supreme Court declared the law unconstitutional in 1948 (Perez v. Sharp). Those people who argue that gay marriage doesn't fit the "traditional" definition of marriage and that gay marriage will ruin the institution are using the same exact argument racists in California used to justify keeping the ban on interracial marriages. It was wrong then and it is wrong now. Note No on Prop 8.
For those who a "pro" prop 8, please explain exactly how two people of the same sex who love each other getting married adversely affects you or anyone else in any way. Seriously, there are much better things to get pissed off about e.g. torture, child abuse, etc. etc. try directing your energies towards ridding the world of things like that before you start trying to interfere with other people's loving relationships.
Explain why?! It's not a matter of affecting one on a personal level, but it will eventually as the society reaches lower and lower levels. If you don't care that the mores of the society go to shit then by all means let's all support this.
Want proof? All societies of the past have been destroyed solely due to the lowering of the mores of that society. Every single one.
It's unethical for two members of the same sex to engage in sexual intercourse let alone marriage.
The more companies that are willing to be socially responsible the better this world will be.
I am proud of them for taking some the funds that I have invested in them (stock holder for 12 years) for the good of others.
What truly saddens me is that so many people are so insecure as to feel threatened by something that in the end has NO effect one them.
I will also not be purchasing Apple stock.
Gay marriage is not just a civil rights issue it is also a moral issue. I object to my government blessing as acceptable what I view as immoral and against biological nature.
I have no objections to civil unions provided they are available to anyone who wants to establish a domestic partnership irregardless of sexual relations or not.
The thousands of dollars that I have spent on Apple products over the years won't make much of a difference but it will make me feel better and perhaps others will magnify the impact.
If Apple wants to vote with their dollars, I will vote with mine.
At some point legalized gay marriage will be forced on religious sects, and churches will be sued unless they perform gay marriages.
Are you high?
The catholic church has forbidden women from becoming priests for centuries and I'll be shocked if that ever changes. You really think people can get religions to change by suing them?
That goes beyond tolerating this disgusting behavior. That infringes on my rights and my beliefs.
If we jump back only a handful of decades I'm sure those exact words were stated about interracial marriage. Are you really that intolerant of people acting as God and/or nature made them? I bet the idea that we'll have a black president in under 2 weeks must keep you up at night.
JOKE: a little self deprecating humor to highlight the ridiculousness of the term: The Gay Agenda
The Homosexual Agenda
6:00 am Gym
8:00 am Breakfast (oatmeal and egg whites)
9:00 am Hair appointment
10:00 am Shopping
12:00 PM Brunch
2:00 PM
1) Assume complete control of the US Federal, State and Local Governments as well as all other national governments
2) Recruit all straight youngsters to our debauched lifestyle
3) Destroy all healthy heterosexual marriages
4) Replace all school counselors in grades K-12 with agents of Colombian and Jamaican drug cartels
5) Establish planetary chain of "homo breeding gulags" where over medicated imprisoned straight women are turned into artificially impregnated baby factories to produce prepubescent love slaves for our devotedly pederastic gay leadership
6) Bulldoze all houses of worship
7) Secure total control of the INTERNET and all mass media for the exclusive use of child pornographers
2:30 PM Get Forty Winks of Beauty Rest to prevent facial wrinkles from stress of world conquest
4:00 PM Cocktails
6:00 PM Light Dinner (soup, salad, with Chardonnay)
8:00 PM Theater
11:00 PM Bed (du jour)
damn, I was so busy with bulldozing houses of worship I forgot to get my beauty sleep.
I heart you KiltBear.
The "morals of society" have been getting destroyed since, oh, I don't know, since society began. This is a false argument that pretends the family lives of Lassie and Leave it to Beaver were actually once real "in better days". They never were. Not in reality or in caricature.
LOL at the "straight" drama queens here.
Therein lies the problem....the arguments are of human origin. Seek the arguments that are God's arguments. I'd love to go more into that, but I have the feeling that wouldn't go over well with this crowd...
And therein lies another problem... my understanding of God's arguments would go to defeating Prop 8, not upholding it. I'm sorry, but as humans, we can only come from a point of understanding that is colored by our humanness. As much as either of us try to understand what is intended for us by a higher power, it is pure hubris to think that either one of us really and truly understand.
And if you you launch into an argument on Faith, you will find that we will differ on what Faith means as well. For to me, Faith means being willing to ask more questions when I am frightened as opposed to believing that all the answers worked out.