Poaching employees is a quick way to get experienced people who are actually worth hiring. Paying them more than Apple does probably isn't too difficult either, but MS margins are pretty slim so these stores could very well lose money for the company. Not that losing money would be anything new for the boys from Redmond. Besides Office and professional services, everything at MS is either marginally successful or running in the red.
Poaching employees is a quick way to get experienced people who are actually worth hiring. Paying them more than Apple does probably isn't too difficult either, but MS margins are pretty slim so these stores could very well lose money for the company. Not that losing money would be anything new for the boys from Redmond. Besides Office and professional services, everything at MS is either marginally successful or running in the red.
That may be true, but in this case, what experience is MS getting from hiring Apple retail employees that they can't get from any other successful retail employees? How much good is the employee's OS X experience or iPhone experience going to do MS in their stores?
[QUOTE=zoetmb;1486653]You can steal a few employees from another company, but if you try and steal lots of them you can be sued for predatory behavior. Having said that, if Microsoft is paying more and this in turn requires Apple to pay more to its employees, I think that's great.
But moving from Apple to Microsoft defeats the whole point of why Apple even exists. There is no loyalty anymore. The fact that I've been supporting Apple since the early 80's is because they have great products. To sell anything MicroSoft would be like selling drugs or gambling or booze. It's a terrible job. Selling Apple is like showing people the diff between a BMW and a Ford! Do you want to drive in comfort? Or make many visits to the dealership and loose doorknobs and failing transmissions and fading paint and rusting fenders and cheesey, deceptive salesmen! Come on!
Defending Microsoft is like defending Benny da Bankster! For you, todays dollar is tomorrows penny-the reverse for them! Wake up America! Stop being corn fed and corrupted by multinationals who want you to become a slave to their powerful kingdom. There are better ways of making a living than becoming a traitor! Support Apple (an imperfect company yes) let Microsoft stew in it's own poison!
Some of us actually want a job, too bad it isnt anywhere in my area.
I was invited to an apple hiring seminar, and just over hearing some of the other people there, they were looking for second jobs, or to replace their first job. Greedy people! I dont even have a job and most of them already had one... jerks
So these people are scooping up all the extra jobs so you cant get one...how dare they do such a thing.
If someone has an original idea, all people are open to compete using his/her own original ideas in a fair manner.
Microsoft appears to not only be snatching ideas from Apple left and right, they are the Lampreys to Apple's shark. Trying to literally steal employees right from the stores? That's just disgusting, and not fair at all.
Just because it is possible and because it is for the sake of business does not mean it's the moral thing to do. Obviously Microsoft is acting out of fear by placing it's stores right on top of Apple Retail Stores. The way they've been acting I wouldn't be inclined to buy anything from Microsoft at this point.
You beat me to it! probably the real thing to say here, is with so many employee's, your going to probably get a few bad Apples (Pun intended). Hopefully Apple Inc. can take care of the problem.
But it definatly is not good press for such a "good" company to have walk outs...
It's viable. It just isn't ever going to be as smooth and slick as it is for a vertically integrated vendor. Without a single point of responsibility, the answers are not going to be palatable to the end user. And trying to take on that responsibility, as quality support shops do today, isn't economically feasible without a bill attached.
Agreed. It will never be as smooth.
MS, however, may be willing to lose money on this part of the operation to try to cultivate a better customer service/support image (the one they have now is terrible). Passing the buck to another vendor would be counterproductive and just piss people off. I think they've probably already thought of this potential problem and would take the approach that the support people will try to solve all problems even if they are not just related to the OS. I think they know that they have to at least ACT like a single point of responsibility and try to make the answers palatable. Basic troubleshooting methods and a healthy dose of google searches can solve most problems people encounter.
The problem is that fixing these problems can take a LONG TIME, and I'm not sure it will work in the "Genius Bar" type of setting. I think that's where this may fail.
We are in a free market Economy. (although we appear to be becoming more Socialistic politically)
As such, as long as the Apple Employees are not breaking a contract, they are free to work for whom they can get hired. Apple is welcome to pay what the minimum the law will allow, or for that matter what ever they deem appropriate. But if they pay them to little, they are asking for problems keeping them. I Love apple products, but couldn't make it as an apple consultant, so now I work in the pc world and use my mac at home (and technically one at the office to, on my desk).
But we are in a free market economy. If you don't want to loose your talent, pay them to stay. If you can afford to loose your talent, that is your call. And the longevity of your company will be the proof if you were right or not.
Quote:
Originally Posted by hyperscribble
If someone has an original idea, all people are open to compete using his/her own original ideas in a fair manner.
Microsoft appears to not only be snatching ideas from Apple left and right, they are the Lampreys to Apple's shark. Trying to literally steal employees right from the stores? That's just disgusting, and not fair at all.
Just because it is possible and because it is for the sake of business does not mean it's the moral thing to do. Obviously Microsoft is acting out of fear by placing it's stores right on top of Apple Retail Stores. The way they've been acting I wouldn't be inclined to buy anything from Microsoft at this point.
wonder how many people will walk in and say, "can you tell me why i got these red rings of death"
Well this would be a positive in my opinion. Since my kid suffered through two of these ( each fixed by MS ) getting fixed in-store as opposed to shipping and waiting for return. At least they did the right thing and extended the warranty on these units, just as Apple has stood behind its hardware.
Or, maybe it is the lack of work hours to make what they are paid worth their time to even show up for work?
Or, maybe Apple should get away from these dumb ass terms like "Apple Specialist"! Call them the sales clerks and cashiers they really are. If someone is a "Specialist" you'd think they'd be paid more, like how doctors don't become general practitioners, but rather pick an area in the medical field and become a "Specialist" because that is where the money is!
And of course no one here would scream bloody murder if their compensation package was reviewed and found to be too sufficient and therefore, a cut in pay and benefits is warranted! Surely that person would never equate their service to the company and the money they made for the company as a legit excuse to warrant more compensation.
Or it could be just a bunch of whiny Seattleites who have convinced themselves that they're always getting screwed by management in spite of what reality otherwise might indicate.
Yeah the way IT department handle that is by having standard configuration and in some cases disallowing installation of any non approved software. The MS store will not be dealing with that, they will be dealing with the everyday person and all the possible combination of software and hardware and will have no clue where to start since Window really lacks debug tools to help isolate things.
I manage my own mac and the few times I run into a problem I can quickly isolate the problem or a quick search of the net I find a solution to the exact issue and fix it.
I have tried the same on a PC, and doing a search of the net finds very similar problems but the solutions usually do not work since the so specific to someone exact configuration that it does not help.
I happen to use a PC at work, and we have pretty strict policies on what you can do with the PC. I can tell you I have had a number issues where Window just started doing odd things without me doing anything or installing any new software. Call IT support and spend hours with them looking and trying various things, turnoff stuff, uninstalling things with no resolution. Only after spending hours on it they throw up their hands and say the drive will have to be re-image. Re-image always fixes the problem, but it is usually a 2 day affair to get it done.
I can tell you that in 25yrs of owning Mac I never once had to re-install the OS to resolve a problem. I have been always able to isolate the problem to an offending file or program and buy removing it and turn it off the problem went a way. I can not say the same for PC.
WOW! Your words could have been my very own. I've been using Macs and PCs in state government since 1986 and your scenario it right on the money. Needless to say I use Macs at home. I also do my own maintenance on my Macs at work.
In this economy, you have to be really careful. If I'm an Apple store employee and I'm unhappy with management, I apply and hopefully get the job at the Microsoft retail store, give my two weeks or even three weeks notice, and I leave my job at the Apple store due to personal reasons.
This is a cold business move though I understand it.
Edit: In this hypothetical situation, I need to make sure the benefits are set in stone otherwise I'm not jumping ship.
Software giant Microsoft is apparently also looking to lure away retail employees from Apple's own stores; and employees at a Washington Apple Store have planned a walk-out.
Microsoft courting Apple Store managers, staff
Citing anonymous sources, Jim Dalrymple at The Loop has reported that Microsoft has contacted "a number of Apple's retail store managers" in an attempt to hire them away. The employees have been promised "significant raises," and some were even offered moving expenses. The strategy also allegedly has a recruitment element to it.
"Once hired, the ex-Apple employees are then contacting some of the top sales people in the Apple retail organization offering them positions at Microsoft retail," Dalrymple wrote. "They have also been offered more money than what they made at Apple."
This is truly pathetic. So not only is Microsoft copying Apple with the Microsoft Store, they are now trying to hire Apple's staff to man their stores? That is unbelievable. Microsoft is beyond desperate. Do they have ANY original ideas?
Microsoft appears to not only be snatching ideas from Apple left and right, they are the Lampreys to Apple's shark. Trying to literally steal employees right from the stores? That's just disgusting, and not fair at all.
Just because it is possible and because it is for the sake of business does not mean it's the moral thing to do. Obviously Microsoft is acting out of fear by placing it's stores right on top of Apple Retail Stores. The way they've been acting I wouldn't be inclined to buy anything from Microsoft at this point.
There is absolutely nothing immoral about poaching employees. It happens all the time, in most industries and in the public sector. It's called capitalism. Where it runs into bad moral and legal territory is when too many employees are poached in predatory manner, as mentioned already in this thread. We have yet to know how many employees if any have crossed over, so it's impossible to say if MS will be in trouble with it.
Microsoft isn't acting out of fear, they're acting out of competition. They want to make money. They've obviously decided that it is in their best competitive interests to place the stores near Apple stores. Ever drive down a strip mall and see Wendy's, McDonald's, and Burger King all with a few blocks of each other? It's the same general idea.
This is truly pathetic. So not only is Microsoft copying Apple with the Microsoft Store, they are now trying to hire Apple's staff to man their stores? That is unbelievable. Microsoft is beyond desperate. Do they have ANY original ideas?
Why are you so sad ? Upset that MS is copying Apple in their innovative and never been done before idea of opening a corporate store? I mean, that's totally horrible. Apple should like...sue them or something.
And then...MS having the gall to lure away some of Apple's employees with a better offer of employment, the travesty! Apple has never done something so sinister!
Apple knows perfectly well it can be tough on employees right now. In the middle of a recession, people tend to suck it up or get fired. If they walk out, then they get fired and there will be plenty of other people willing to take the jobs. Short of actually flogging employees they can get away with quite a lot.
That may be true, but in this case, what experience is MS getting from hiring Apple retail employees that they can't get from any other successful retail employees? How much good is the employee's OS X experience or iPhone experience going to do MS in their stores?
1. Apple staff have a genuine enthusiasm for gadgets and software
2. Most Mac people are familiar with both sides and can better argue one versus the other
3. Experience with iPod touch should make it easier to promote the Zune
4. MS probably thinks Apple hires better than average candidates
Yeah the way IT department handle that is by having standard configuration and in some cases disallowing installation of any non approved software. The MS store will not be dealing with that, they will be dealing with the everyday person and all the possible combination of software and hardware and will have no clue where to start since Window really lacks debug tools to help isolate things.
I manage my own mac and the few times I run into a problem I can quickly isolate the problem or a quick search of the net I find a solution to the exact issue and fix it.
I have tried the same on a PC, and doing a search of the net finds very similar problems but the solutions usually do not work since the so specific to someone exact configuration that it does not help.
I happen to use a PC at work, and we have pretty strict policies on what you can do with the PC. I can tell you I have had a number issues where Window just started doing odd things without me doing anything or installing any new software. Call IT support and spend hours with them looking and trying various things, turnoff stuff, uninstalling things with no resolution. Only after spending hours on it they throw up their hands and say the drive will have to be re-image. Re-image always fixes the problem, but it is usually a 2 day affair to get it done.
I can tell you that in 25yrs of owning Mac I never once had to re-install the OS to resolve a problem. I have been always able to isolate the problem to an offending file or program and buy removing it and turn it off the problem went a way. I can not say the same for PC.
WOW! Your words could have been my very own. I've been using Macs and PCs in state government since 1986 and your scenario it right on the money. Needless to say I use Macs at home. I also do my own maintenance on my Macs at work.
Sad isn't it? The registry is the source of all evil in Windows. Fix it, and Windows will break entirely and will die as everything will have to be rewritten, and when people see their precious backwards compatibility gone, they will all jump ship. Keep it, and stupid issues will always plague Windows and WinMob every day (like losing call notifications!), at random intervals, at the worst possible time.
Comments
Poaching employees is a quick way to get experienced people who are actually worth hiring. Paying them more than Apple does probably isn't too difficult either, but MS margins are pretty slim so these stores could very well lose money for the company. Not that losing money would be anything new for the boys from Redmond. Besides Office and professional services, everything at MS is either marginally successful or running in the red.
That may be true, but in this case, what experience is MS getting from hiring Apple retail employees that they can't get from any other successful retail employees? How much good is the employee's OS X experience or iPhone experience going to do MS in their stores?
But moving from Apple to Microsoft defeats the whole point of why Apple even exists. There is no loyalty anymore. The fact that I've been supporting Apple since the early 80's is because they have great products. To sell anything MicroSoft would be like selling drugs or gambling or booze. It's a terrible job. Selling Apple is like showing people the diff between a BMW and a Ford! Do you want to drive in comfort? Or make many visits to the dealership and loose doorknobs and failing transmissions and fading paint and rusting fenders and cheesey, deceptive salesmen! Come on!
Defending Microsoft is like defending Benny da Bankster! For you, todays dollar is tomorrows penny-the reverse for them! Wake up America! Stop being corn fed and corrupted by multinationals who want you to become a slave to their powerful kingdom. There are better ways of making a living than becoming a traitor! Support Apple (an imperfect company yes) let Microsoft stew in it's own poison!
Some of us actually want a job, too bad it isnt anywhere in my area.
I was invited to an apple hiring seminar, and just over hearing some of the other people there, they were looking for second jobs, or to replace their first job. Greedy people! I dont even have a job and most of them already had one... jerks
So these people are scooping up all the extra jobs so you cant get one...how dare they do such a thing.
Microsoft appears to not only be snatching ideas from Apple left and right, they are the Lampreys to Apple's shark. Trying to literally steal employees right from the stores? That's just disgusting, and not fair at all.
Just because it is possible and because it is for the sake of business does not mean it's the moral thing to do. Obviously Microsoft is acting out of fear by placing it's stores right on top of Apple Retail Stores. The way they've been acting I wouldn't be inclined to buy anything from Microsoft at this point.
Wow...sounds like a bad apple!
sorry couldn't resist.
You beat me to it! probably the real thing to say here, is with so many employee's, your going to probably get a few bad Apples (Pun intended). Hopefully Apple Inc. can take care of the problem.
But it definatly is not good press for such a "good" company to have walk outs...
It's viable. It just isn't ever going to be as smooth and slick as it is for a vertically integrated vendor. Without a single point of responsibility, the answers are not going to be palatable to the end user. And trying to take on that responsibility, as quality support shops do today, isn't economically feasible without a bill attached.
Agreed. It will never be as smooth.
MS, however, may be willing to lose money on this part of the operation to try to cultivate a better customer service/support image (the one they have now is terrible). Passing the buck to another vendor would be counterproductive and just piss people off. I think they've probably already thought of this potential problem and would take the approach that the support people will try to solve all problems even if they are not just related to the OS. I think they know that they have to at least ACT like a single point of responsibility and try to make the answers palatable. Basic troubleshooting methods and a healthy dose of google searches can solve most problems people encounter.
The problem is that fixing these problems can take a LONG TIME, and I'm not sure it will work in the "Genius Bar" type of setting. I think that's where this may fail.
As such, as long as the Apple Employees are not breaking a contract, they are free to work for whom they can get hired. Apple is welcome to pay what the minimum the law will allow, or for that matter what ever they deem appropriate. But if they pay them to little, they are asking for problems keeping them. I Love apple products, but couldn't make it as an apple consultant, so now I work in the pc world and use my mac at home (and technically one at the office to, on my desk).
But we are in a free market economy. If you don't want to loose your talent, pay them to stay. If you can afford to loose your talent, that is your call. And the longevity of your company will be the proof if you were right or not.
If someone has an original idea, all people are open to compete using his/her own original ideas in a fair manner.
Microsoft appears to not only be snatching ideas from Apple left and right, they are the Lampreys to Apple's shark. Trying to literally steal employees right from the stores? That's just disgusting, and not fair at all.
Just because it is possible and because it is for the sake of business does not mean it's the moral thing to do. Obviously Microsoft is acting out of fear by placing it's stores right on top of Apple Retail Stores. The way they've been acting I wouldn't be inclined to buy anything from Microsoft at this point.
wonder how many people will walk in and say, "can you tell me why i got these red rings of death"
Well this would be a positive in my opinion. Since my kid suffered through two of these ( each fixed by MS ) getting fixed in-store as opposed to shipping and waiting for return. At least they did the right thing and extended the warranty on these units, just as Apple has stood behind its hardware.
Or, maybe it is the lack of work hours to make what they are paid worth their time to even show up for work?
Or, maybe Apple should get away from these dumb ass terms like "Apple Specialist"! Call them the sales clerks and cashiers they really are. If someone is a "Specialist" you'd think they'd be paid more, like how doctors don't become general practitioners, but rather pick an area in the medical field and become a "Specialist" because that is where the money is!
And of course no one here would scream bloody murder if their compensation package was reviewed and found to be too sufficient and therefore, a cut in pay and benefits is warranted! Surely that person would never equate their service to the company and the money they made for the company as a legit excuse to warrant more compensation.
Or it could be just a bunch of whiny Seattleites who have convinced themselves that they're always getting screwed by management in spite of what reality otherwise might indicate.
Yeah the way IT department handle that is by having standard configuration and in some cases disallowing installation of any non approved software. The MS store will not be dealing with that, they will be dealing with the everyday person and all the possible combination of software and hardware and will have no clue where to start since Window really lacks debug tools to help isolate things.
I manage my own mac and the few times I run into a problem I can quickly isolate the problem or a quick search of the net I find a solution to the exact issue and fix it.
I have tried the same on a PC, and doing a search of the net finds very similar problems but the solutions usually do not work since the so specific to someone exact configuration that it does not help.
I happen to use a PC at work, and we have pretty strict policies on what you can do with the PC. I can tell you I have had a number issues where Window just started doing odd things without me doing anything or installing any new software. Call IT support and spend hours with them looking and trying various things, turnoff stuff, uninstalling things with no resolution. Only after spending hours on it they throw up their hands and say the drive will have to be re-image. Re-image always fixes the problem, but it is usually a 2 day affair to get it done.
I can tell you that in 25yrs of owning Mac I never once had to re-install the OS to resolve a problem. I have been always able to isolate the problem to an offending file or program and buy removing it and turn it off the problem went a way. I can not say the same for PC.
WOW! Your words could have been my very own. I've been using Macs and PCs in state government since 1986 and your scenario it right on the money. Needless to say I use Macs at home. I also do my own maintenance on my Macs at work.
This is a cold business move though I understand it.
Edit: In this hypothetical situation, I need to make sure the benefits are set in stone otherwise I'm not jumping ship.
Software giant Microsoft is apparently also looking to lure away retail employees from Apple's own stores; and employees at a Washington Apple Store have planned a walk-out.
Microsoft courting Apple Store managers, staff
Citing anonymous sources, Jim Dalrymple at The Loop has reported that Microsoft has contacted "a number of Apple's retail store managers" in an attempt to hire them away. The employees have been promised "significant raises," and some were even offered moving expenses. The strategy also allegedly has a recruitment element to it.
"Once hired, the ex-Apple employees are then contacting some of the top sales people in the Apple retail organization offering them positions at Microsoft retail," Dalrymple wrote. "They have also been offered more money than what they made at Apple."
[ View this article at AppleInsider.com ]
This is truly pathetic. So not only is Microsoft copying Apple with the Microsoft Store, they are now trying to hire Apple's staff to man their stores? That is unbelievable. Microsoft is beyond desperate. Do they have ANY original ideas?
[B]
Microsoft appears to not only be snatching ideas from Apple left and right, they are the Lampreys to Apple's shark. Trying to literally steal employees right from the stores? That's just disgusting, and not fair at all.
Just because it is possible and because it is for the sake of business does not mean it's the moral thing to do. Obviously Microsoft is acting out of fear by placing it's stores right on top of Apple Retail Stores. The way they've been acting I wouldn't be inclined to buy anything from Microsoft at this point.
There is absolutely nothing immoral about poaching employees. It happens all the time, in most industries and in the public sector. It's called capitalism. Where it runs into bad moral and legal territory is when too many employees are poached in predatory manner, as mentioned already in this thread. We have yet to know how many employees if any have crossed over, so it's impossible to say if MS will be in trouble with it.
Microsoft isn't acting out of fear, they're acting out of competition. They want to make money. They've obviously decided that it is in their best competitive interests to place the stores near Apple stores. Ever drive down a strip mall and see Wendy's, McDonald's, and Burger King all with a few blocks of each other? It's the same general idea.
This is truly pathetic. So not only is Microsoft copying Apple with the Microsoft Store, they are now trying to hire Apple's staff to man their stores? That is unbelievable. Microsoft is beyond desperate. Do they have ANY original ideas?
Why are you so sad ? Upset that MS is copying Apple in their innovative and never been done before idea of opening a corporate store? I mean, that's totally horrible. Apple should like...sue them or something.
And then...MS having the gall to lure away some of Apple's employees with a better offer of employment, the travesty! Apple has never done something so sinister!
That may be true, but in this case, what experience is MS getting from hiring Apple retail employees that they can't get from any other successful retail employees? How much good is the employee's OS X experience or iPhone experience going to do MS in their stores?
1. Apple staff have a genuine enthusiasm for gadgets and software
2. Most Mac people are familiar with both sides and can better argue one versus the other
3. Experience with iPod touch should make it easier to promote the Zune
4. MS probably thinks Apple hires better than average candidates
etc.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Maestro64 View Post
Yeah the way IT department handle that is by having standard configuration and in some cases disallowing installation of any non approved software. The MS store will not be dealing with that, they will be dealing with the everyday person and all the possible combination of software and hardware and will have no clue where to start since Window really lacks debug tools to help isolate things.
I manage my own mac and the few times I run into a problem I can quickly isolate the problem or a quick search of the net I find a solution to the exact issue and fix it.
I have tried the same on a PC, and doing a search of the net finds very similar problems but the solutions usually do not work since the so specific to someone exact configuration that it does not help.
I happen to use a PC at work, and we have pretty strict policies on what you can do with the PC. I can tell you I have had a number issues where Window just started doing odd things without me doing anything or installing any new software. Call IT support and spend hours with them looking and trying various things, turnoff stuff, uninstalling things with no resolution. Only after spending hours on it they throw up their hands and say the drive will have to be re-image. Re-image always fixes the problem, but it is usually a 2 day affair to get it done.
I can tell you that in 25yrs of owning Mac I never once had to re-install the OS to resolve a problem. I have been always able to isolate the problem to an offending file or program and buy removing it and turn it off the problem went a way. I can not say the same for PC.
WOW! Your words could have been my very own. I've been using Macs and PCs in state government since 1986 and your scenario it right on the money. Needless to say I use Macs at home. I also do my own maintenance on my Macs at work.
Sad isn't it? The registry is the source of all evil in Windows. Fix it, and Windows will break entirely and will die as everything will have to be rewritten, and when people see their precious backwards compatibility gone, they will all jump ship. Keep it, and stupid issues will always plague Windows and WinMob every day (like losing call notifications!), at random intervals, at the worst possible time.