At most, Verizon would add 30% to Apple's US sales numbers. Those numbers are shrinking as a part of the total. So Verizon may represent 15% of the total if Apple went to them today, and possibly 7% in a year.
Would that pay? I don't think so, if a special model would be required. And then, in 2011, LTE might be spread around enough so that in June of that year, the ver 5 of the phone should definitely have it, and that would be the end of a pure CDMA phone. so what would Apple have gained? One year, or a bit more, of CDMA sales?
One year of CDMA iphone sale is still a lot of money. We are talking about billions of dollars of revenue and billion of dollars of profits.
Although Verizon is ahead of AT&T on starting LTE deployment, it'll be years, well past 2011, before phones on VZ's network are freed from the need to include legacy CDMA support in addition to LTE. For Apple to offer a VZ iPhone they'd need to design and built a special multi-standard handset just for this carrier.
True, but is the situation really any different for ATT? Honest question, I don't know.
Is making an LTE/CDMA phone that much more technically challenging than making an LTE/3G GSM phone? In either case you are supporting multiple standards. Someone is going to have to make chipsets for all of the other Verizon phones that need to be able to support both standards. So the chipsets will exist for that. It's not as if Apple needs to go off and create some new hybrid chips. They would do just like they do today. Namely, they will select from the same vendors who supply chips for all the rest of the phones that will need to be made. And the cellular radio is a pretty small part of the overall iPhone. Probably less complex than swapping video cards in your Mac Pro.
Apple doesn't even have to do the redesign if it is just a motherboard reshuffling space --- the taiwanese firms that do the manufacturing can redesign the iphone motherboard for Apple.
Maybe that's why Virgin isn't doing well. It costs far more to design a phone like an iPhone.
Apple designs the phone, not the manufacturers. Even if they did, Apple would pay the price.
I've designed electronics, its not so easy to "reshuffle" space on a complex board. The entire circuit would have to be redone. This takes months. These phones have no extra space. One tiny change in one area requires that everything else be moved around. Then the traces on the boards have to be entirely redone. This takes many iterations, even with advanced software. Then there is the internal resting, and the return to the FCC.
LTE is designed to be an evolution from GSM. The path that AT&T is on is the same path that every GSM carrier is on. Pretty much all GSM carriers around the world are still improving HSPDA speeds. They will naturally evolve from HSDPA into LTE. Verizon doesn't have that ability, its the reason they have to get LTE going sooner.
As HSDPA gets faster and deployed wider, Verizon will have a slower EV-DO network and an immature LTE network.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wiggin
Is making an LTE/CDMA phone that much more technically challenging than making an LTE/3G GSM phone?
so what would Apple have gained? One year, or a bit more, of CDMA sales?
One year? I’ve never seen a carrier drop a wireless standard just because a new was in place. CDMA will still be active on Verizon’s network for many years. I don’t even expect LTE to be finished until 2013. Apple could certainly make a lot from a CDMA iPhone, but that doesn’t mean it’s a right fit for them.
One year of CDMA iphone sale is still a lot of money. We are talking about billions of dollars of revenue and billion of dollars of profits.
That's your assumption.
If it were so easy, we would see it very shortly, when Apple's AT&T contract is over.
If it were imminent, then it's unlikely Verizon would be bashing the iPhone so strongly right now, because if it does come to them, it would outsell the Droid. They would have to make a big turnabout.
One year? I?ve never seen a carrier drop a wireless standard just because a new was in place. CDMA will still be active on Verizon?s network for many years. I don?t even expect LTE to be finished until 2013. Apple could certainly make a lot of a CDMA iPhone, doesn?t mean it?s a right fit for them.
I doubt that people would want to continue using the much slower WCDMA when LTE came out, esp on a top end phone. Maybe for the masses with cheap or free phones. but it will go sooner rather than later.
Actually, from what I've heard, Verizon is more concerned with its ability to control the apps and data traffic on the iPhone. It does not want any traffic on its network that it can not control.
The issue is really, as VZ sees it, as bandwidth becoming a commodity, which then means that neither network has anything to sell, and people will just buy whoever offers bandwidth at the lowest price--like flour, or pasta, corn or whatever.
(Anyone notice that patent Apple just got on remote killing of app processes?... hmm. Wonder why that was researched ).
Yet I would give a good penny to be able to use my phone in NYC without incident. Calls drop ALL THE TIME, and data coverage is abysmal.
Maybe that's why Virgin isn't doing well. It costs far more to design a phone like an iPhone.
Apple designs the phone, not the manufacturers. Even if they did, Apple would pay the price.
I've designed electronics, its not so easy to "reshuffle" space on a complex board. The entire circuit would have to be redone. This takes months. These phones have no extra space. One tiny change in one area requires that everything else be moved around. Then the traces on the boards have to be entirely redone. This takes many iterations, even with advanced software. Then there is the internal resting, and the return to the FCC.
Just look at any wifi router. It gets cheaper all the time and all the different versions can have different chipsets and different OS'es. Hardware version 1 may have Broadcom with linux. Hardware version 2 may have Atheros with vxworks.
If it were so easy, we would see it very shortly, when Apple's AT&T contract is over.
If it were imminent, then it's unlikely Verizon would be bashing the iPhone so strongly right now, because if it does come to them, it would outsell the Droid. They would have to make a big turnabout.
What's good for Apple isn't necesarily what's good for Verizon.
Just look at any wifi router. It gets cheaper all the time and all the different versions can have different chipsets and different OS'es. Hardware version 1 may have Broadcom with linux. Hardware version 2 may have Atheros with vxworks.
It's not a lot of money and effort.
That's not a crowded device. There's plenty of room inside. Totally different. And routers are simple devices.
What's good for Apple isn't necesarily what's good for Verizon.
If Verizon thought they would be selling the iPhone soon, they would already have been in negotiation with a reasonable thought that the phone would be coming. Therefor, it's unlikely their ADs would be so pointed and harsh. They would have to reverse themselves in a few months. not an easy thing to do if they still are advertising the other product heavily.
And then what happens to those ADs? Do they also suddenly advertise the iPhone to negate all their previous ADs belittling the device?
How do they now advertise both devices at once? Do they put one against the other?
No, you made it sound like that all electronics motherboard shuffles are hard and complex and costly.
I specifically said phones like the iPhone, and was even more specifically saying the iPhone, which has been described by third parties that dissected it for their sites, as having not a square millimeter to spare inside.
If Verizon thought they would be selling the iPhone soon, they would already have been in negotiation with a reasonable thought that the phone would be coming. Therefor, it's unlikely their ADs would be so pointed and harsh. They would have to reverse themselves in a few months. not an easy thing to do if they still are advertising the other product heavily.
And then what happens to those ADs? Do they also suddenly advertise the iPhone to negate all their previous ADs belittling the device?
How do they now advertise both devices at once? Do they put one against the other?
You think this is simple when it's not.
Apple belittled Intel chips while Steve Jobs ordered all their OS X development to start with both Intel and PowerPC chipsets.
I doubt that people would want to continue using the much slower WCDMA when LTE came out, esp on a top end phone. Maybe for the masses with cheap or free phones. but it will go sooner rather than later.
The world still has GSM on phones, even in countries where WCDMA has excellent coverage. And I?ve read that Verizon is planning to still use CDMA for voice, leaving LTE for data-only. There is just no reason to hinder your device when the chipsets and radios are comparatively small, cheap and power consumption friendly.
Quote:
Originally Posted by samab
Just look at any wifi router. It gets cheaper all the time and all the different versions can have different chipsets and different OS'es. Hardware version 1 may have Broadcom with linux. Hardware version 2 may have Atheros with vxworks.
It's not a lot of money and effort.
You can?t compare a space rich device with one that has to work around very strict guidelines.
I specifically said phones like the iPhone, and was even more specifically saying the iPhone, which has been described by third parties that dissected it for their sites, as having not a square millimeter to spare inside.
No, you specifically said that you have experience in this sort of motherboard shuffle. Unless you actually design cell phones in your professional life, then I don't see any evidence that you are correct in your arguments.
Then it is just my argument which is at least backed up by third party sources that have experience in cell phone industry vs. your claim that it is far more costlier to design a CDMA varient.
Actually, most likely they will be switching. Because the iPhone is going to be CDMA in Canada shortly, that means the US will probably make the switch at the same time.
So, looks like the US will be getting iPhone's on Verizon very, very soon.
Apple belittled Intel chips while Steve Jobs ordered all their OS X development to start with both Intel and PowerPC chipsets.
Apple ran OS X on Intel for two reasons. One was because Nextstep was available to x86 for a long time anyway. And maybe there might be a time when Apple could move over. But for years there were no plans to do so.
Apple made that decision only after Intel made a presentation to them a year before they moved over. I don't think that most people not using Mac even knew what a PPC chip was. Most people thought that Macs DID use Intel chips.
Even the PC world knew about Intel's problems with heat. You couldn't avoid the issue on the net, and even articles in the NY Times and WSJ talked about the problems.
And these were technical issues most people don't understand.
This is very different. Verizon is putting the entire iPhone experience down. I don't see how they can suddenly reverse that. People understand usage issues quite well, which is why the iPhone is so popular.
Comments
Your numbers are off.
At most, Verizon would add 30% to Apple's US sales numbers. Those numbers are shrinking as a part of the total. So Verizon may represent 15% of the total if Apple went to them today, and possibly 7% in a year.
Would that pay? I don't think so, if a special model would be required. And then, in 2011, LTE might be spread around enough so that in June of that year, the ver 5 of the phone should definitely have it, and that would be the end of a pure CDMA phone. so what would Apple have gained? One year, or a bit more, of CDMA sales?
One year of CDMA iphone sale is still a lot of money. We are talking about billions of dollars of revenue and billion of dollars of profits.
Although Verizon is ahead of AT&T on starting LTE deployment, it'll be years, well past 2011, before phones on VZ's network are freed from the need to include legacy CDMA support in addition to LTE. For Apple to offer a VZ iPhone they'd need to design and built a special multi-standard handset just for this carrier.
True, but is the situation really any different for ATT? Honest question, I don't know.
Is making an LTE/CDMA phone that much more technically challenging than making an LTE/3G GSM phone? In either case you are supporting multiple standards. Someone is going to have to make chipsets for all of the other Verizon phones that need to be able to support both standards. So the chipsets will exist for that. It's not as if Apple needs to go off and create some new hybrid chips. They would do just like they do today. Namely, they will select from the same vendors who supply chips for all the rest of the phones that will need to be made. And the cellular radio is a pretty small part of the overall iPhone. Probably less complex than swapping video cards in your Mac Pro.
$5 million to design a CDMA iphone, a former Virgin Mobile executive said.
http://www.businessinsider.com/why-a...xt-year-2009-9
Apple doesn't even have to do the redesign if it is just a motherboard reshuffling space --- the taiwanese firms that do the manufacturing can redesign the iphone motherboard for Apple.
Maybe that's why Virgin isn't doing well. It costs far more to design a phone like an iPhone.
Apple designs the phone, not the manufacturers. Even if they did, Apple would pay the price.
I've designed electronics, its not so easy to "reshuffle" space on a complex board. The entire circuit would have to be redone. This takes months. These phones have no extra space. One tiny change in one area requires that everything else be moved around. Then the traces on the boards have to be entirely redone. This takes many iterations, even with advanced software. Then there is the internal resting, and the return to the FCC.
As HSDPA gets faster and deployed wider, Verizon will have a slower EV-DO network and an immature LTE network.
Is making an LTE/CDMA phone that much more technically challenging than making an LTE/3G GSM phone?
so what would Apple have gained? One year, or a bit more, of CDMA sales?
One year? I’ve never seen a carrier drop a wireless standard just because a new was in place. CDMA will still be active on Verizon’s network for many years. I don’t even expect LTE to be finished until 2013. Apple could certainly make a lot from a CDMA iPhone, but that doesn’t mean it’s a right fit for them.
One year of CDMA iphone sale is still a lot of money. We are talking about billions of dollars of revenue and billion of dollars of profits.
That's your assumption.
If it were so easy, we would see it very shortly, when Apple's AT&T contract is over.
If it were imminent, then it's unlikely Verizon would be bashing the iPhone so strongly right now, because if it does come to them, it would outsell the Droid. They would have to make a big turnabout.
One year? I?ve never seen a carrier drop a wireless standard just because a new was in place. CDMA will still be active on Verizon?s network for many years. I don?t even expect LTE to be finished until 2013. Apple could certainly make a lot of a CDMA iPhone, doesn?t mean it?s a right fit for them.
I doubt that people would want to continue using the much slower WCDMA when LTE came out, esp on a top end phone. Maybe for the masses with cheap or free phones. but it will go sooner rather than later.
The issue is really, as VZ sees it, as bandwidth becoming a commodity, which then means that neither network has anything to sell, and people will just buy whoever offers bandwidth at the lowest price--like flour, or pasta, corn or whatever.
(Anyone notice that patent Apple just got on remote killing of app processes?... hmm. Wonder why that was researched
Yet I would give a good penny to be able to use my phone in NYC without incident. Calls drop ALL THE TIME, and data coverage is abysmal.
Yet hope, as ever, springs eternal,
Mandricard
AppleOutsider
Maybe that's why Virgin isn't doing well. It costs far more to design a phone like an iPhone.
Apple designs the phone, not the manufacturers. Even if they did, Apple would pay the price.
I've designed electronics, its not so easy to "reshuffle" space on a complex board. The entire circuit would have to be redone. This takes months. These phones have no extra space. One tiny change in one area requires that everything else be moved around. Then the traces on the boards have to be entirely redone. This takes many iterations, even with advanced software. Then there is the internal resting, and the return to the FCC.
Just look at any wifi router. It gets cheaper all the time and all the different versions can have different chipsets and different OS'es. Hardware version 1 may have Broadcom with linux. Hardware version 2 may have Atheros with vxworks.
It's not a lot of money and effort.
That's your assumption.
If it were so easy, we would see it very shortly, when Apple's AT&T contract is over.
If it were imminent, then it's unlikely Verizon would be bashing the iPhone so strongly right now, because if it does come to them, it would outsell the Droid. They would have to make a big turnabout.
What's good for Apple isn't necesarily what's good for Verizon.
Just look at any wifi router. It gets cheaper all the time and all the different versions can have different chipsets and different OS'es. Hardware version 1 may have Broadcom with linux. Hardware version 2 may have Atheros with vxworks.
It's not a lot of money and effort.
That's not a crowded device. There's plenty of room inside. Totally different. And routers are simple devices.
That's not a crowded device. There's plenty of room inside. Totally different. And routers are simple devices.
No, you made it sound like that all electronics motherboard shuffles are hard and complex and costly.
What's good for Apple isn't necesarily what's good for Verizon.
If Verizon thought they would be selling the iPhone soon, they would already have been in negotiation with a reasonable thought that the phone would be coming. Therefor, it's unlikely their ADs would be so pointed and harsh. They would have to reverse themselves in a few months. not an easy thing to do if they still are advertising the other product heavily.
And then what happens to those ADs? Do they also suddenly advertise the iPhone to negate all their previous ADs belittling the device?
How do they now advertise both devices at once? Do they put one against the other?
You think this is simple when it's not.
No, you made it sound like that all electronics motherboard shuffles are hard and complex and costly.
I specifically said phones like the iPhone, and was even more specifically saying the iPhone, which has been described by third parties that dissected it for their sites, as having not a square millimeter to spare inside.
If Verizon thought they would be selling the iPhone soon, they would already have been in negotiation with a reasonable thought that the phone would be coming. Therefor, it's unlikely their ADs would be so pointed and harsh. They would have to reverse themselves in a few months. not an easy thing to do if they still are advertising the other product heavily.
And then what happens to those ADs? Do they also suddenly advertise the iPhone to negate all their previous ADs belittling the device?
How do they now advertise both devices at once? Do they put one against the other?
You think this is simple when it's not.
Apple belittled Intel chips while Steve Jobs ordered all their OS X development to start with both Intel and PowerPC chipsets.
I doubt that people would want to continue using the much slower WCDMA when LTE came out, esp on a top end phone. Maybe for the masses with cheap or free phones. but it will go sooner rather than later.
The world still has GSM on phones, even in countries where WCDMA has excellent coverage. And I?ve read that Verizon is planning to still use CDMA for voice, leaving LTE for data-only. There is just no reason to hinder your device when the chipsets and radios are comparatively small, cheap and power consumption friendly.
Just look at any wifi router. It gets cheaper all the time and all the different versions can have different chipsets and different OS'es. Hardware version 1 may have Broadcom with linux. Hardware version 2 may have Atheros with vxworks.
It's not a lot of money and effort.
You can?t compare a space rich device with one that has to work around very strict guidelines.
Apple belittled Intel chips while Steve Jobs ordered all their OS X development to start with both Intel and PowerPC chipsets.
They didn?t ?start? they continued. NeXT was an Intel shop.
I specifically said phones like the iPhone, and was even more specifically saying the iPhone, which has been described by third parties that dissected it for their sites, as having not a square millimeter to spare inside.
No, you specifically said that you have experience in this sort of motherboard shuffle. Unless you actually design cell phones in your professional life, then I don't see any evidence that you are correct in your arguments.
Then it is just my argument which is at least backed up by third party sources that have experience in cell phone industry vs. your claim that it is far more costlier to design a CDMA varient.
So, looks like the US will be getting iPhone's on Verizon very, very soon.
Apple belittled Intel chips while Steve Jobs ordered all their OS X development to start with both Intel and PowerPC chipsets.
Apple ran OS X on Intel for two reasons. One was because Nextstep was available to x86 for a long time anyway. And maybe there might be a time when Apple could move over. But for years there were no plans to do so.
Apple made that decision only after Intel made a presentation to them a year before they moved over. I don't think that most people not using Mac even knew what a PPC chip was. Most people thought that Macs DID use Intel chips.
Even the PC world knew about Intel's problems with heat. You couldn't avoid the issue on the net, and even articles in the NY Times and WSJ talked about the problems.
And these were technical issues most people don't understand.
This is very different. Verizon is putting the entire iPhone experience down. I don't see how they can suddenly reverse that. People understand usage issues quite well, which is why the iPhone is so popular.