Right, and I agree with all that as far as it goes, but what I'm saying is that when you're talking about creative people (real, employed, professional creative people), they have a tendency to find surprising uses from even low end tech, particularly if that tech has some enticingly new capacities. You may recall photographer's ongoing infatuation with cheap plastic film cameras and the like, because of the interesting artifacts.
So Apple's intentions notwithstanding, I fully expect the iPad to start showing up in the damnedest places, and developers to squeeze surprising amounts of performance out of its lowly silicon, yielding inexplicably "professional" results.
Absolutely, we're in agreement. But those professionals (I am one BTW, although my staff would argue that point..!) should do that - it will be fun pushing the boundaries - with the proviso that this device has limitations which are not flaws, they are simply part of the device not being intended to function as a high-end computer work station. And to be making some of the complaints I'm already reading before people have even handled the 'pad are ridiculous. That was sort of my point.
Yeah, spec inflation causes amnesia. It really wasn't that long ago that perfectly respectable laptops were running 1 GHz processors with 80 GB drives and 512 gigs of ram, and I seem to recall that people were doing "real work" (or at least they thought they were-- perhaps they were mistaken on account of being primitive and old timey).
Yeah, but the problem is that software developers have become lazy, and given massive storage and processing power, coupled with large amounts of RAM, they no longer bother to optimise their code. The OS now takes more RAM than my machine of ten years even had. The amount of RAM and processor taken by CS4 for instance is pretty incredible - apps sat idling are still trying to use 10 - 15% of the CPU. I think a lot of software companies, Adobe top of my personal list, need to take note, clean their apps, refine their code and get back to the days of slick, smooth work flow. Too much bloatware around. First thing to be stripped back to barebones and rebuilt is the flash plug-in, then the REAL problem facing apple with this "web browsing device" can be addressed and corrected.
Absolutely, we're in agreement. But those professionals (I am one BTW, although my staff would argue that point..!) should do that - it will be fun pushing the boundaries - with the proviso that this device has limitations which are not flaws, they are simply part of the device not being intended to function as a high-end computer work station. And to be making some of the complaints I'm already reading before people have even handled the 'pad are ridiculous. That was sort of my point.
Right. I'm slowly coming around to understanding that we're actually in agreement.
Yeah, spec inflation causes amnesia. It really wasn't that long ago that perfectly respectable laptops were running 1 GHz processors with 80 GB drives and 512 gigs of ram, and I seem to recall that people were doing "real work" (or at least they thought they were-- perhaps they were mistaken on account of being primitive and old timey).
Yeh we were all busy watching spinning balls and progress indicators managing to define it "rendering" as work.
Quote:
Originally Posted by nkhm
Absolutely, we're in agreement. But those professionals (I am one BTW, although my staff would argue that point..!) should do that - it will be fun pushing the boundaries - with the proviso that this device has limitations which are not flaws, they are simply part of the device not being intended to function as a high-end computer work station. And to be making some of the complaints I'm already reading before people have even handled the 'pad are ridiculous. That was sort of my point.
Some of my crew would definitely dispute my professional status as well, but we all have our cross to bare.
Yeah, spec inflation causes amnesia. It really wasn't that long ago that perfectly respectable laptops were running 1 GHz processors with 80 GB drives and 512 gigs of ram, and I seem to recall that people were doing "real work" (or at least they thought they were-- perhaps they were mistaken on account of being primitive and old timey).
Wow! I wish I had 512 GB RAM for my Mac Pro. I've only got 16 so far.\
Yeah, but the problem is that software developers have become lazy, and given massive storage and processing power, coupled with large amounts of RAM, they no longer bother to optimise their code. The OS now takes more RAM than my machine of ten years even had. The amount of RAM and processor taken by CS4 for instance is pretty incredible - apps sat idling are still trying to use 10 - 15% of the CPU. I think a lot of software companies, Adobe top of my personal list, need to take note, clean their apps, refine their code and get back to the days of slick, smooth work flow. Too much bloatware around. First thing to be stripped back to barebones and rebuilt is the flash plug-in, then the REAL problem facing apple with this "web browsing device" can be addressed and corrected.
I have to say that is one of my biggest problems with CS4 as well. Bloat. Perhaps "tabletizing" software will have "exterior" benefits .
I have to say that is one of my biggest problems with CS4 as well. Bloat. Perhaps "tabletizing" software will have "exterior" benefits .
It's a matter of the industry demanding more features, and Adobe being only too happy to accommodate. I've been beta testing PS since version 1.0. Adobe listens to feature requests, though it could take an upgrade or two before they can do them.
A friend had written a plug-in to do hi-light and shadow processing. We asked Adobe for that, and two years later Hi-light/shadow came out.
I suppose it's our fault. We don't want to leave the program to do more work.
You're still being vague. While I agree that most will use it for what Apple says, but the neat trick Apple pulled off here is that there's nothing inherently part of the hardware that would prevent some "pro" work from being done on the device. Like I said. I have pro friends who use Iphones and IPT's for commercial music. I'll never edit a feature on an Ipad but I might edit my vacation video on one and while I don't expect to do any real photoshop work on an ipad I would like to download photos to an it instead of a clunky laptop the next shoot we work on.
NO, I'm not being vague.
By high end work, i mean running professional applications for large scale content creation - web development, large format graphics work, high definition video editing. You might use this in the studio, but you're not gonna run logic on it.
Of course it'll be great as a tool, as part of the work flow. To download photos while on a shoot is my main use for getting this new toy. I'm not about to launch Photoshop CS4 and edit them on it though.
It's not vague, i think you're being deliberately obtuse.
this. is. not. designed. to. be. a. high. end. multitasking. powerful. workhorse. computer.
Apple would never threaten sales of it's pro line-up.
Yeah, I guess I was thinking of the struggles to deal with AVCHD stuff, H.264 would be much easier on the processor. I'm almost sure that the last iMovie had at least some thought to a touch version-- I can imagine doing that frame scrub thing with my finger, dragging on and off the "timeline" (or whatever they call that clip area now), tapping to split a clip, pinch zooming to change the scale, touching and holding at an edit point to bring up a pop over list of transition effects. Hmmm... I really like the sound of it. Way back when I start in film editing 16mm, with that kind of visceral relationship to the stuff of it, chopping and splicing. A touch based NLE might bring back some of that feel.
Yeah I was hopping to see Color and FCP aps for the Ipad actually. Virtual controllers to return some of the tactile feeling; which would be nice since I have a distinct "twitch" when I think of how technology seems to have gotten in the way over the years, where a Maviola might have seemed like chaos, it was so much more about building something than simply "clicking a mouse" 20,000 times in FCP.
By high end work, i mean running professional applications for large scale content creation - web development, large format graphics work, high definition video editing. You might use this in the studio, but you're not gonna run logic on it.
Of course it'll be great as a tool, as part of the work flow. To download photos while on a shoot is my main use for getting this new toy. I'm not about to launch Photoshop CS4 and edit them on it though.
It's not vague, i think you're being deliberately obtuse.
this. is. not. designed. to. be. a. high. end. multitasking. powerful. workhorse. computer.
Apple would never threaten sales of it's pro line-up.
Give this a few years. We'll see larger form factors, and all that comes with it.
I wish people remembered Jobs' quote. When he was with NEXT, and Apple was having problems in the mid 90's, he was asked what he would do if he was back running Apple.
He said:
"I'd milk the Mac for everything it was worth, and then move on to the next big thing."
By high end work, i mean running professional applications for large scale content creation - web development, large format graphics work, high definition video editing. You might use this in the studio, but you're not gonna run logic on it.
Of course it'll be great as a tool, as part of the work flow. To download photos while on a shoot is my main use for getting this new toy. I'm not about to launch Photoshop CS4 and edit them on it though.
It's not vague, i think you're being deliberately obtuse.
this. is. not. designed. to. be. a. high. end. multitasking. powerful. workhorse. computer.
Apple would never threaten sales of it's pro line-up.
So I help settle the "argument" between you and Addabox and this is how you repay me??? Obtuse indeed. Teasing of course it's nearly 5:30 my time. I'd say we are in agreement. No we won't run desktop aps on it, but yes it has certain applications in a pro environment.
Give this a few years. We'll see larger form factors, and all that comes with it.
I wish people remembered Jobs' quote. When he was with NEXT, and Apple was having problems in the mid 90's, he was asked what he would do if he was back running Apple.
He said:
"I'd milk the Mac for everything it was worth, and then move on to the next big thing."
Hey guys, what are we seeing here?
I agree - this is start of the next stage. However, people are criticising the device for not being everything that this next stage will bring. This is the first step, but a significant fully formed step in its own right.
So I help settle the "argument" between you and Addabox and this is how you repay me??? Obtuse indeed. Teasing of course it's nearly 5:30 my time. I'd say we are in agreement. No we won't run desktop aps on it, but yes it has certain applications in a pro environment.
It's a matter of the industry demanding more features, and Adobe being only too happy to accommodate. I've been beta testing PS since version 1.0. Adobe listens to feature requests, though it could take an upgrade or two before they can do them.
A friend had written a plug-in to do hi-light and shadow processing. We asked Adobe for that, and two years later Hi-light/shadow came out.
I suppose it's our fault. We don't want to leave the program to do more work.
Makes me think that I should bite my tongue and beg for forgiveness when I have the devious thought that FCP, Color and AE could all be the same app. Talk about Bloated.
Yeah, but the problem is that software developers have become lazy, and given massive storage and processing power, coupled with large amounts of RAM, they no longer bother to optimise their code. The OS now takes more RAM than my machine of ten years even had. The amount of RAM and processor taken by CS4 for instance is pretty incredible - apps sat idling are still trying to use 10 - 15% of the CPU. I think a lot of software companies, Adobe top of my personal list, need to take note, clean their apps, refine their code and get back to the days of slick, smooth work flow. Too much bloatware around. First thing to be stripped back to barebones and rebuilt is the flash plug-in, then the REAL problem facing apple with this "web browsing device" can be addressed and corrected.
Please.... don't get me started about Adobe!!! A few months ago here at AI, I was even fantasizing and posting about Apple buying them and pitching the whole lot of 'em into the Pacific.
Fact is, Adobe is so discombobulated, that at this point it would probably be better to start over and write a competing product-line (although I do like LR over Aperture for the moment *shrug*).
You seem to misunderstand the paradigm. If you use the application to do all of your organizing (creating subcategories etc) there's no need to do any organizing at the system level beyond what the application automatically takes care of.
Actually, I think it's you that misunderstand. I do photography, and have done plenty of professional studio work.
As to software, I use Photoshop, Aperture, Lightroom, and iPhoto.
And Aperture and iPhoto persist in their single-library single-mindedness, to the point of distraction. Have you shot RAW off a Canon 1DS? Those suckers burn through HD space faster than does a bit-torrent fiend.
As I said, you begin to reach a point where you absolutely, positively need multiple libraries (or collections) on multiple drives. I have 2 and 4GB drives, and I still bounce off the wall in Aperture, in iPhoto, and even with movies and TV shows in iTunes. Download a single TV season off iTunes and bam, 20 gig is gone, just like that.
You might say, well "pros" sure, but "normal" people don't need better tools.
Yes, they do. I have a friend that, as I also said before, has been pouring photos into iPhoto ever since version one. And life (iPhoto life, anyway) sucks. She's long past keeping her library on her 128GB MB Air, finally got a genius to tell her how to move it off to an external drive, and now that drive is running out of room.
She'd love it if she could keep her best photos on the Air, the rest on the external drive, and manage them all through a single interface, but Apple doesn't roll that way.
Read my lips: If you restrict people to a single library on a single drive, at some point that drive is going to get full.
And then you're screwed.
And as we collect more and more digital media: books, movies, shows, games, apps, photos, music, video...
Comments
Right, and I agree with all that as far as it goes, but what I'm saying is that when you're talking about creative people (real, employed, professional creative people), they have a tendency to find surprising uses from even low end tech, particularly if that tech has some enticingly new capacities. You may recall photographer's ongoing infatuation with cheap plastic film cameras and the like, because of the interesting artifacts.
So Apple's intentions notwithstanding, I fully expect the iPad to start showing up in the damnedest places, and developers to squeeze surprising amounts of performance out of its lowly silicon, yielding inexplicably "professional" results.
Absolutely, we're in agreement. But those professionals (I am one BTW, although my staff would argue that point..!) should do that - it will be fun pushing the boundaries - with the proviso that this device has limitations which are not flaws, they are simply part of the device not being intended to function as a high-end computer work station. And to be making some of the complaints I'm already reading before people have even handled the 'pad are ridiculous. That was sort of my point.
Yeah, spec inflation causes amnesia. It really wasn't that long ago that perfectly respectable laptops were running 1 GHz processors with 80 GB drives and 512 gigs of ram, and I seem to recall that people were doing "real work" (or at least they thought they were-- perhaps they were mistaken on account of being primitive and old timey).
Yeah, but the problem is that software developers have become lazy, and given massive storage and processing power, coupled with large amounts of RAM, they no longer bother to optimise their code. The OS now takes more RAM than my machine of ten years even had. The amount of RAM and processor taken by CS4 for instance is pretty incredible - apps sat idling are still trying to use 10 - 15% of the CPU. I think a lot of software companies, Adobe top of my personal list, need to take note, clean their apps, refine their code and get back to the days of slick, smooth work flow. Too much bloatware around. First thing to be stripped back to barebones and rebuilt is the flash plug-in, then the REAL problem facing apple with this "web browsing device" can be addressed and corrected.
Absolutely, we're in agreement. But those professionals (I am one BTW, although my staff would argue that point..!) should do that - it will be fun pushing the boundaries - with the proviso that this device has limitations which are not flaws, they are simply part of the device not being intended to function as a high-end computer work station. And to be making some of the complaints I'm already reading before people have even handled the 'pad are ridiculous. That was sort of my point.
Right. I'm slowly coming around to understanding that we're actually in agreement.
Yeah, spec inflation causes amnesia. It really wasn't that long ago that perfectly respectable laptops were running 1 GHz processors with 80 GB drives and 512 gigs of ram, and I seem to recall that people were doing "real work" (or at least they thought they were-- perhaps they were mistaken on account of being primitive and old timey).
Yeh we were all busy watching spinning balls and progress indicators managing to define it "rendering" as work.
Absolutely, we're in agreement. But those professionals (I am one BTW, although my staff would argue that point..!) should do that - it will be fun pushing the boundaries - with the proviso that this device has limitations which are not flaws, they are simply part of the device not being intended to function as a high-end computer work station. And to be making some of the complaints I'm already reading before people have even handled the 'pad are ridiculous. That was sort of my point.
Some of my crew would definitely dispute my professional status as well, but we all have our cross to bare.
Yeah, spec inflation causes amnesia. It really wasn't that long ago that perfectly respectable laptops were running 1 GHz processors with 80 GB drives and 512 gigs of ram, and I seem to recall that people were doing "real work" (or at least they thought they were-- perhaps they were mistaken on account of being primitive and old timey).
Wow! I wish I had 512 GB RAM for my Mac Pro. I've only got 16 so far.
It's late. Typo tyme.
Yeah, but the problem is that software developers have become lazy, and given massive storage and processing power, coupled with large amounts of RAM, they no longer bother to optimise their code. The OS now takes more RAM than my machine of ten years even had. The amount of RAM and processor taken by CS4 for instance is pretty incredible - apps sat idling are still trying to use 10 - 15% of the CPU. I think a lot of software companies, Adobe top of my personal list, need to take note, clean their apps, refine their code and get back to the days of slick, smooth work flow. Too much bloatware around. First thing to be stripped back to barebones and rebuilt is the flash plug-in, then the REAL problem facing apple with this "web browsing device" can be addressed and corrected.
I have to say that is one of my biggest problems with CS4 as well. Bloat. Perhaps "tabletizing" software will have "exterior" benefits .
Yeh we were all busy watching spinning balls and progress indicators managing to define it "rendering" as work.
.
Back with PS 1, and our old machines, with a 10MB file, a sharpening would take almost 20 minutes. Yeah, no typo here.
Wow! I wish I had 512 GB RAM for my Mac Pro. I've only got 16 so far.
It's late. Typo tyme.
Heh. Speaking of spec inflation, it's like I don't even know how to type "MB" anymore. What's that?
I have to say that is one of my biggest problems with CS4 as well. Bloat. Perhaps "tabletizing" software will have "exterior" benefits .
It's a matter of the industry demanding more features, and Adobe being only too happy to accommodate. I've been beta testing PS since version 1.0. Adobe listens to feature requests, though it could take an upgrade or two before they can do them.
A friend had written a plug-in to do hi-light and shadow processing. We asked Adobe for that, and two years later Hi-light/shadow came out.
I suppose it's our fault. We don't want to leave the program to do more work.
You're still being vague. While I agree that most will use it for what Apple says, but the neat trick Apple pulled off here is that there's nothing inherently part of the hardware that would prevent some "pro" work from being done on the device. Like I said. I have pro friends who use Iphones and IPT's for commercial music. I'll never edit a feature on an Ipad but I might edit my vacation video on one and while I don't expect to do any real photoshop work on an ipad I would like to download photos to an it instead of a clunky laptop the next shoot we work on.
NO, I'm not being vague.
By high end work, i mean running professional applications for large scale content creation - web development, large format graphics work, high definition video editing. You might use this in the studio, but you're not gonna run logic on it.
Of course it'll be great as a tool, as part of the work flow. To download photos while on a shoot is my main use for getting this new toy. I'm not about to launch Photoshop CS4 and edit them on it though.
It's not vague, i think you're being deliberately obtuse.
this. is. not. designed. to. be. a. high. end. multitasking. powerful. workhorse. computer.
Apple would never threaten sales of it's pro line-up.
Heh. Speaking of spec inflation, it's like I don't even know how to type "MB" anymore. What's that?
Ah, times they are achangin'.
Yeah, I guess I was thinking of the struggles to deal with AVCHD stuff, H.264 would be much easier on the processor. I'm almost sure that the last iMovie had at least some thought to a touch version-- I can imagine doing that frame scrub thing with my finger, dragging on and off the "timeline" (or whatever they call that clip area now), tapping to split a clip, pinch zooming to change the scale, touching and holding at an edit point to bring up a pop over list of transition effects. Hmmm... I really like the sound of it. Way back when I start in film editing 16mm, with that kind of visceral relationship to the stuff of it, chopping and splicing. A touch based NLE might bring back some of that feel.
Yeah I was hopping to see Color and FCP aps for the Ipad actually. Virtual controllers to return some of the tactile feeling; which would be nice since I have a distinct "twitch" when I think of how technology seems to have gotten in the way over the years, where a Maviola might have seemed like chaos, it was so much more about building something than simply "clicking a mouse" 20,000 times in FCP.
NO, I'm not being vague.
By high end work, i mean running professional applications for large scale content creation - web development, large format graphics work, high definition video editing. You might use this in the studio, but you're not gonna run logic on it.
Of course it'll be great as a tool, as part of the work flow. To download photos while on a shoot is my main use for getting this new toy. I'm not about to launch Photoshop CS4 and edit them on it though.
It's not vague, i think you're being deliberately obtuse.
this. is. not. designed. to. be. a. high. end. multitasking. powerful. workhorse. computer.
Apple would never threaten sales of it's pro line-up.
Give this a few years. We'll see larger form factors, and all that comes with it.
I wish people remembered Jobs' quote. When he was with NEXT, and Apple was having problems in the mid 90's, he was asked what he would do if he was back running Apple.
He said:
"I'd milk the Mac for everything it was worth, and then move on to the next big thing."
Hey guys, what are we seeing here?
NO, I'm not being vague.
By high end work, i mean running professional applications for large scale content creation - web development, large format graphics work, high definition video editing. You might use this in the studio, but you're not gonna run logic on it.
Of course it'll be great as a tool, as part of the work flow. To download photos while on a shoot is my main use for getting this new toy. I'm not about to launch Photoshop CS4 and edit them on it though.
It's not vague, i think you're being deliberately obtuse.
this. is. not. designed. to. be. a. high. end. multitasking. powerful. workhorse. computer.
Apple would never threaten sales of it's pro line-up.
So I help settle the "argument" between you and Addabox and this is how you repay me??? Obtuse indeed.
It's 5:30 in the morning here. Got carried away.
Slow this down 'till I get back, ya hear?
Give this a few years. We'll see larger form factors, and all that comes with it.
I wish people remembered Jobs' quote. When he was with NEXT, and Apple was having problems in the mid 90's, he was asked what he would do if he was back running Apple.
He said:
"I'd milk the Mac for everything it was worth, and then move on to the next big thing."
Hey guys, what are we seeing here?
I agree - this is start of the next stage. However, people are criticising the device for not being everything that this next stage will bring. This is the first step, but a significant fully formed step in its own right.
So I help settle the "argument" between you and Addabox and this is how you repay me??? Obtuse indeed.
lol. Go to sleep!
It's a matter of the industry demanding more features, and Adobe being only too happy to accommodate. I've been beta testing PS since version 1.0. Adobe listens to feature requests, though it could take an upgrade or two before they can do them.
A friend had written a plug-in to do hi-light and shadow processing. We asked Adobe for that, and two years later Hi-light/shadow came out.
I suppose it's our fault. We don't want to leave the program to do more work.
Makes me think that I should bite my tongue and beg for forgiveness when I have the devious thought that FCP, Color and AE could all be the same app.
Yeah, but the problem is that software developers have become lazy, and given massive storage and processing power, coupled with large amounts of RAM, they no longer bother to optimise their code. The OS now takes more RAM than my machine of ten years even had. The amount of RAM and processor taken by CS4 for instance is pretty incredible - apps sat idling are still trying to use 10 - 15% of the CPU. I think a lot of software companies, Adobe top of my personal list, need to take note, clean their apps, refine their code and get back to the days of slick, smooth work flow. Too much bloatware around. First thing to be stripped back to barebones and rebuilt is the flash plug-in, then the REAL problem facing apple with this "web browsing device" can be addressed and corrected.
Please.... don't get me started about Adobe!!! A few months ago here at AI, I was even fantasizing and posting about Apple buying them and pitching the whole lot of 'em into the Pacific.
Fact is, Adobe is so discombobulated, that at this point it would probably be better to start over and write a competing product-line (although I do like LR over Aperture for the moment *shrug*).
You seem to misunderstand the paradigm. If you use the application to do all of your organizing (creating subcategories etc) there's no need to do any organizing at the system level beyond what the application automatically takes care of.
Actually, I think it's you that misunderstand. I do photography, and have done plenty of professional studio work.
As to software, I use Photoshop, Aperture, Lightroom, and iPhoto.
And Aperture and iPhoto persist in their single-library single-mindedness, to the point of distraction. Have you shot RAW off a Canon 1DS? Those suckers burn through HD space faster than does a bit-torrent fiend.
As I said, you begin to reach a point where you absolutely, positively need multiple libraries (or collections) on multiple drives. I have 2 and 4GB drives, and I still bounce off the wall in Aperture, in iPhoto, and even with movies and TV shows in iTunes. Download a single TV season off iTunes and bam, 20 gig is gone, just like that.
You might say, well "pros" sure, but "normal" people don't need better tools.
Yes, they do. I have a friend that, as I also said before, has been pouring photos into iPhoto ever since version one. And life (iPhoto life, anyway) sucks. She's long past keeping her library on her 128GB MB Air, finally got a genius to tell her how to move it off to an external drive, and now that drive is running out of room.
She'd love it if she could keep her best photos on the Air, the rest on the external drive, and manage them all through a single interface, but Apple doesn't roll that way.
Read my lips: If you restrict people to a single library on a single drive, at some point that drive is going to get full.
And then you're screwed.
And as we collect more and more digital media: books, movies, shows, games, apps, photos, music, video...
It's only going to get worse.