Greenpeace criticizes Apple for carbon footprint of iPad cloud

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  • Reply 121 of 147
    hezekiahbhezekiahb Posts: 448member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Blastdoor View Post


    Hmm... I almost agree with you. I think the problem with groups like Greenpeace is that they appear to be suggesting that they would prefer that economic growth be halted or reversed. Whenever they complain about any specific economic activity, it always sounds like they just want the activity stopped, not that they want it to be done more efficiently or using greener energy sources. That line of argument is anti-progress, anti-human, and isn't going to convince anyone.



    But I don't agree that making efforts to save energy are too complicated, expensive, or impractical. In fact, in many cases, saving energy is less complicated, less expensive, and more practical than alternative energy sources. For example, there are a lot of drafty houses out there that could save a lot of energy through adding better windows or insulation. I'm all for alternative energy sources, but energy efficiency is also important and useful.



    I don't think it is that they appear to want growth to be halted, they absolutely do. They don't really think through a lot of their accusations, they just like to spout off at the world. It's a shame, they have become pretty much a joke & few people even care what they think anymore.
  • Reply 122 of 147
    davegeedavegee Posts: 2,765member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by FineTunes View Post


    errr did you mean Japanese whaling ships instead of Chinese wailing ships?



    See that? Even with my inexcusable misspelling AND incorrect country you STILL got what I was trying to say... You've must be a certified SUPER-GENIUS! Tell the truth, you're a card carrying member of Mensa aren't you?



    All kidding aside, I'm so glad you took the time out of your otherwise perfect existence to correct my inexcusable errors... How could I ever possibly repay you?



    By the way... I gotta ask... is being able to walk on water really as cool as it sounds? \
  • Reply 123 of 147
    mavfan1mavfan1 Posts: 50member
    advocacy groups that grow to the size of greenpeace are like living beings in that they want to survive and since they only survive through spreading fear they will continue to do so as long as people will fund them. If every one of greenpeace's demands were fulfilled they'd simply come up with more extreme demands, until we're all living on self sustaining farms or in communes spending our days churning butter and knitting socks.



    I was all for some of the global eco treaties if their aim was truly to clean up our skies and our water, but now we're hearing the aim of the carbon credits and some of the new plans out of Copenhagen is that what wealthy countries really should do is pay $ to the poorer countries as a sort of tax for basically doing well and using resources and that immediately told me that what was really going on was another attempt at a global redistribution of wealth. No thanks.
  • Reply 124 of 147
    Found another offender, complicit in using the cloud and video streaming and destroying our environment:

    http://www.greenpeace.org/internatio...-change/kitkat
  • Reply 125 of 147
    arlomediaarlomedia Posts: 271member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Blastdoor View Post


    And actually, i wonder how using an iPad compares to reading a book. Sure, the book doesn't have a battery, but the book had to be physically shipped around the country rather than digitally transmitted, and the book requires paper.



    I have often wondered about this myself, when thinking about the rise of the Internet in general. I use much less paper and mail than I used to, but I'm also buying gadgets made of plastic and aluminum and using more electricity. I'd be curious to read some kind of study if anybody knows of one.
  • Reply 126 of 147
    arlomediaarlomedia Posts: 271member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Blastdoor View Post


    I think the right way to look at this is to see the emergence of "the cloud" as a great opportunity to improve the environmental impact of computing relative to a model in which all of the computing power lies with the client. Far easier to influence how power is generated for a single, centrally located server than to influence how power is generated for a million geographically dispersed clients. For example, it's easier to get google to install solar panels on the roof of their giant data center than to get every individual who uses that data center to install solar panels.



    I think this is a good point. The argument for electric cars is similar ... it's easier to focus efforts on cleaning up the power plant than to try cleaning up each individual car. It's actually similar to good coding practices -- encapsulate functionality and eliminate redundancy!
  • Reply 127 of 147
    Its easy to find fault anywhere. Bikes are very green, but they still create a cabon footprint somewhere in production, plus parts and non environmental friendly greases and chemicals. You cant blame the iPad or Apple of the carbon footprint from using the device through someone elses' services, you should be happy that Apple is even listening to you, making the effort and taking the costs to appease you. The iPad itsself isnt the problem. Get over it greenpeace.
  • Reply 128 of 147
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Rob55 View Post


    These are PCs idling on the pre-login screens. And yes, we're off of CRTs already.







    It's already been suggested. No action yet.







    Already been mentioned to the appropriate depts. So no, I'm not just sitting here complaining about it expecting someone else to fix it. I'd do it myself, but technically, I'm not permitted to.



    Ya' know, many organizations have "suggestion" departments that encourge people to submit money-saving or safety ideas. They even offer a percentage of the savings as a reward,



    I know, when I worked at IBM, some people made quite a lot of cash submitting suggestions.



    One guy submitted a suggestion to place a suggestion box by the door to the parking lot... reward $100,



    Then he submitted a safety suggestion that they put a light over the suggestion box by the door to the parking lot.... $300 reward!



    These were 1968 dollars, so it'd be about 5 times that today (I bought a vanilla 1970 VW Beatle New for under $1.800)





    You should check with admin to see if your school has such a plan.



    If so, you could do a little research and put a $ savings on your suggestion!!



    If they don't, you could do a little more research and estimate the $ savings possible by establishing a suggestions dept/plan...



    ...use your 1st research as an example of the savings that could be made with such plan!



    ... then submit it as a suggestion





    If they won't budge, sic GreenPeace on them... wait a few weeks, and then...



    You could even suggest that they buy Macs with Parallels with the savings





    *
  • Reply 129 of 147
    There are many groups that get my support. GREENPEACE is one of them. I even worked as a fundraiser for GREENPEACE a few years ago.



    To me such reports are short sighted. Having extremely capable machines like the iPad getting smaller and smaller is saving energy over the continued manufacturing of larger desk top computers. How much energy is saved by using an iPad instead of a 200-300 watt desktop? I'm sure it is plenty. The savings is in the amount of raw materials needed to make the computers, the energy used in construction and transportation to market, and in daily usage.



    Cloud computing is happening whether one uses a desktop or an iPad. The servers will be running no matter which device one is using, therefore; GREENPEACE should be encouraging people to use such devices as iPads instead of full size computers.



    Apple's large iMacs run very hot according to many users. Even if they are made in really environmental ways they still use energy. Perhaps GREENPEACE could switch its point of view on cloud computing and embrace it while promoting tiny computers for the masses. IPads do most of what ordinary users need in a tiny package. In a year they probably will do nearly everything to one degree or another.



    Cloud computing will eventually be considered a great innovation for conserving energy.



    Perhaps GREENPEACE should also do a report about cable TV usage. Those converter boxes all generate way to much heat and more people have those than computers.
  • Reply 130 of 147
    arlomediaarlomedia Posts: 271member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by mavfan1 View Post


    If every one of greenpeace's demands were fulfilled they'd simply come up with more extreme demands, until we're all living on self sustaining farms or in communes spending our days churning butter and knitting socks.



    This is the "slippery slope" argument:



    http://www.nizkor.org/features/falla...ery-slope.html



    Quote:
    Originally Posted by mavfan1 View Post


    I was all for some of the global eco treaties if their aim was truly to clean up our skies and our water, but now we're hearing the aim of the carbon credits and some of the new plans out of Copenhagen is that what wealthy countries really should do is pay $ to the poorer countries as a sort of tax for basically doing well and using resources and that immediately told me that what was really going on was another attempt at a global redistribution of wealth. No thanks.



    It's not a redistribution of wealth ... it's an acknowledgement that countries who have grown to our level of economic strength burned a lot of carbon in the process, so we won't get anywhere telling countries who are trying to achieve the same growth that they can't do the same thing. On the other hand, if a country like China burns as much carbon per capita as we did while it grows, it won't be a pretty picture. So the goal is to push that growth in a more environmentally friendly direction. Makes sense to me.
  • Reply 131 of 147
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Smallwheels View Post


    There are many groups that get my support. GREENPEACE is one of them. I even worked as a fundraiser for GREENPEACE a few years ago.



    To me such reports are short sighted. Having extremely capable machines like the iPad getting smaller and smaller is saving energy over the continued manufacturing of larger desk top computers. How much energy is saved by using an iPad instead of a 200-300 watt desktop? I'm sure it is plenty. The savings is in the amount of raw materials needed to make the computers, the energy used in construction and transportation to market, and in daily usage.



    Cloud computing is happening whether one uses a desktop or an iPad. The servers will be running no matter which device one is using, therefore; GREENPEACE should be encouraging people to use such devices as iPads instead of full size computers.



    Apple's large iMacs run very hot according to many users. Even if they are made in really environmental ways they still use energy. Perhaps GREENPEACE could switch its point of view on cloud computing and embrace it while promoting tiny computers for the masses. IPads do most of what ordinary users need in a tiny package. In a year they probably will do nearly everything to one degree or another.



    Cloud computing will eventually be considered a great innovation for conserving energy.



    Perhaps GREENPEACE should also do a report about cable TV usage. Those converter boxes all generate way to much heat and more people have those than computers.



    These are very good points!



    If you have any Contacts at GreenPeace, maybe you could 'splain it to them, and convert them to be a proponent of cloud computing.



    Seriously, this thread has a lot of very good ideas, and it would be nice to see GreenPeace for something for a change.



    It'd be interesting to see what happens!



    *
  • Reply 132 of 147
    davegeedavegee Posts: 2,765member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Dick Applebaum View Post


    These are very good points!



    You've both overlooked something that was pointed out by another poster a page or 2 back...



    "Greenpeace issues a SCATHING report on the VAST abuses perpetrated by Cisco/Scientific Atlanta digital set top boxes..."



    Quote:

    PERHAPS this will get mentioned SOMEWHERE in the paper... Maybe right before the OBIT or CLASSIFIED sections... Unless a cute 'cat' or 'dog' story gets submitted.



    "Greenpeace issues a SCATHING report on the new Apple iPad!"



    Quote:

    HEY! We need to move that front page story about the failed assignation attempt on 7 of the top world-leaders and replace it with THIS ! Don't just stand there, make it happen!!



    Sad yes, but eerily close to the truth I'm afraid...
  • Reply 133 of 147
    jragostajragosta Posts: 10,473member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Blastdoor View Post


    Perhaps a more likely substitute is a big screen TV. What uses more power -- me sitting on the couch watching my 50" plasma or me sitting on the couch surfing the web, reading a book, etc on an iPad? Even if you add in the (relatively tiny) power consumption on the server-end, I bet the iPad scenario uses less energy than the plasma TV scenario.



    Or, more importantly, which uses more power - you watching a movie on a 10" device that uses so little power that it runs 10 hours on a small battery - or you driving through traffic in your car to the movie theatre which is cooled to about 58 degrees all summer?



    Quote:
    Originally Posted by myapplelove View Post


    Do they have a solution on how to power the server farms with solar panels? I didn't think so. The tec just isn't there yet.



    Actually, the technology IS there. It's more expensive, but it can be done.



    Thermal solar systems (solar power flashes water to steam which drives an electric generator) are already cost competitive in some locations, anyway. It's just solar electric which isn't quite there - but getting closer every day.



    The real breakthrough needed today is in energy storage.



    Quote:
    Originally Posted by anantksundaram View Post


    Some very good posts above. Greenpeace has totally lost it here. They understand neither basic economics nor how to measure the impact of carbon footprints.



    Like all radical groups, Greenpeace needs to learn something about the real world. Recently, PETA filed a complaint about Punxatawny Phil (the famous Groundhog's Day groundhog) and asking that he be replaced with a robot groundhog. He lives a pampered life all year round, well fed and cared for, but one morning a year, he has to go out in the cold - and they're making a federal case of it.



    These radical groups just don't realize what a parody they've become.
  • Reply 134 of 147
    Shall we call it "Green Gestapo"?



    Yawn.
  • Reply 135 of 147
    robleviroblevi Posts: 11member
    If a device like an iPad, or any other similar platform helps a person to telecommute, or work more efficiently,or perform any daily tasks more efficiently than he could before the mobile infomration age, the argument is nuts. Compare the energy used by Amazon, for instance, distributing by Fed Ex and people driving to a mall instead. These cloud computing centers are no different than any other large scale industrial installation. I know it;ll cause a heart attack at Greenpeace, but if you use nuclear to power them, you won't have any emissions. Then you can reprocess the fuel in breeders- oh, I'm sorry. That's engineering. I didn't mean to get all technical on you and interfere with your jihad.
  • Reply 136 of 147
    Apple is already a MAJOR polluter!

    This will make it that much worse!
  • Reply 137 of 147
    kibitzerkibitzer Posts: 1,114member
    Look very closely at the following and you might see the Greenpeace pickets at the front gate!



    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hDXSSi1qStA
  • Reply 138 of 147
    esummersesummers Posts: 953member
    This is exactly what Apple has been saying. Maybe Greenpeace finally figured out that promises not to pollute in the future are meaningless and the vast majority of pollution comes from using devices. Hence Apples stress on energy efficient devices.



    They are just jumping on the iPad bandwagon for exposure though. This has nothing to do with the iPad.



    Maybe Greenpeace will release an app that does nothing but show a meter with how much energy the energy meter app uses!
  • Reply 139 of 147
    esummersesummers Posts: 953member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by BallmerSteve View Post


    Apple is already a MAJOR polluter!

    This will make it that much worse!



    Finally, an appropriate nick name for trolling! ;-)
  • Reply 140 of 147
    This is an organization that has been given way too much indulgence by business and the media. Deficient in cognitive capacity, their only utilization of oxygen and, hence, a contributor to the gas they hate to love, is to spew forth more and more silly comments-- all of which are about how corporations should conduct themselves in order to meet [email protected]@@es standards!



    How arrogant of them when they are nobodies--- lacking as they do any science or at rock bottom, any commonsense.



    Sadly, Apple has acknowledged them and thrown them a couple of bones (minus the warfarin which would have made the bone throwing palatable to me)



    Now where is the Rainbow Warrior again?
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