Geeeez! OK kiddies, let's review our statistical analysis:
margin of error is calculated against potential for survey error, and survey population representation of the larger population. You can have a smaller sample profile as long as it is effectively representative of the larger population it extrapolates to. If your survey is flawed it increases the margin of error outside of the issue of representation. However, you cannot do a detailed statistical representation of the survey population outside of general data points due to increasing variance as you separate down the individual population. So you could not, for example use the detail "X% of users prefer the keyboard of the Blackberry to the keyboard of the Nokia N97 when you have only one respondent providing the data point. You can report, that of the users surveyed X% indicated this, but not call that out as indicative of the larger population.
Clear? Good - quiz on Friday. Class dismissed.
You forgot to add the classic joke told by statisticians themselves:
"Give me your conclusion and I shall provide the statistics you "need", using your data."
CGC
***
"Dewey defeats Truman" -- 1948 US Presidential Election
I wonder if they are also counting the iPhone OS on the iPod Touch, or just the iPhone.
The projection shows Android overtaking in mid 2011. I would expect it to be faster than that considering that Android is free, cheap and available to all HW vendors. What I don't expect is Apple giving a damn about the marketshare of the smartphone market they reinvigorated. There focus is always on increasing sales, thus increasing profit.
it doesn't follow the actual adoption slope at all in either case and is statistically meaningless, just wishful/wistful thinking on "eurodroid's part. What an excellent source of unbiased reporting too JB!
Oh gosh, it's so simple that I feel foolish telling you this.....
In Safari, go to Edit ➡ Special Characters ⇒ Miscellaneous ➪ candy store......
In System Preferences » Language & Text » Text tab you can add shortcuts. I've added a lot of charcaters I use that aren't found when pressing Option+key.
I also do this for many forums so I can add markup quickly and efficiently. For this forum I use several to make my posts easier to read.
Given that most iPods and iPhones are owned by Windows users, I don't see how you could be correct here.
Despite the popularity of the iPhone, OS X has not gained much market share. How do you explain that?
You fail to understand the concept of market segmentation in your comment. Apple chooses to play in only certain segments e.g. Computers over $1000 in which it has a 90% share. Developers also care about segments for the most part e.g. Education, business, home use etc. depending on the App they are developing. Each segment also has it's characteristics such as average software spend, so if people who buy a $2000 computer spend 5x on software or content those who buy a netbook then they are 5x more valuable consumers to a developer. Microsoft is dominant in corporates and cheap home pcs bur Apple commands a much higher share of $s spent than a simple unit count conveys.
"Market share" is important but you have to understand it at the appropriate level before it means anything.
For the past decade driven by OSX, Apple stores, iPods and iPhones, apple has had huge share growth in all it's target segments and has a very disproportionate share of every $ spent on consumer IT and CE and it is only growing.
Your conclusion may or may not be correct, but the market share growth alone does not support it.
That's your opinion and that's all fine. The only way to know for sure is to continue to watch the trends over time. Satisfaction brings on market share. I see it happening for both Android and iPhone. I'll leave it there.
In the end, it's us consumers are the ones that win. I love the vast array of choices we have now as opposed to just a few years ago.
You fail to understand the concept of market segmentation in your comment. Apple chooses to play in only certain segments e.g. Computers over $1000 in which it has a 90% share. Developers also care about segments for the most part e.g. Education, business, home use etc. depending on the App they are developing. Each segment also has it's characteristics such as average software spend, so if people who buy a $2000 computer spend 5x on software or content those who buy a netbook then they are 5x more valuable consumers to a developer. Microsoft is dominant in corporates and cheap home pcs bur Apple commands a much higher share of $s spent than a simple unit count conveys.
"Market share" is important but you have to understand it at the appropriate level before it means anything.
For the past decade driven by OSX, Apple stores, iPods and iPhones, apple has had huge share growth in all it's target segments and has a very disproportionate share of every $ spent on consumer IT and CE and it is only growing.
That's all great, but what I was responding to is this:
"Once someone gets into the Apple ecosystem, whether it was as in previous years, an iPod or now with the iPhone-they're hooked! Mainly as you say because of the superior product and seemingly constant improvements provided."
My point was that the facts don't seem to bear out that folks get hooked.
I wonder what market share trash Microsoft fans will put out now with these numbers. I notice that's all they seem to think of when talking about Apple or Linux. Gets tiring after a while.
Anyway, for those lazy to read, here's market share changes from November 2009 to February 2010:
Microsoft: down from 19.1% 15.1% (losers!)
Palm: down from 7.2% to 5.4% (had less, lost less)
Apple: down from 25.5% to 25.4% (stagnating, pretty much)
RIM: up from 40.8% to 42.1% (not bad considering they already have that big chunk of market)
Android: up from 3.8% to 9.0% (nice jump)
So... I know about common belief about people waiting for iPhone 4 to come out, but November was closer to 3GS release than the next one, so if people start waiting for new model that quick after previous one is released... plus there was Christmas season... doesn't sound right.
I'm not MS fan when it comes to phones, by the way - I do have iPhone. \
Anyway, for those lazy to read, here's market share changes from November 2009 to February 2010:
Microsoft: down from 19.1% 15.1% (losers!)
Palm: down from 7.2% to 5.4% (had less, lost less)
Apple: down from 25.5% to 25.4% (stagnating, pretty much)
RIM: up from 40.8% to 42.1% (not bad considering they already have that big chunk of market)
Android: up from 3.8% to 9.0% (nice jump)
So... I know about common belief about people waiting for iPhone 4 to come out, but November was closer to 3GS release than the next one, so if people start waiting for new model that quick after previous one is released... plus there was Christmas season... doesn't sound right.
I'm not MS fan when it comes to phones, by the way - I do have iPhone. \
MS is still doing better than most people give them credit for. Android has considerably less than MS but I can't tell you the name of a WinMO-based phone that made any noise in years.
The stagnation is only for part of year, with new devices from other vendors using those OSes coming out in droves, but since Apple updated the 3GS in June and has been doing YoY updates around the same time to really judge the market accurately we need to look at YoY results.
Why November through February, a four month span? I can't find how they obtained their stats but the more accurate ones use the company's quarterly results, hence three months being more common with RiM being the oddball with quarters a month off from the others. That makes this questionable (not necessarily inaccurate) just questionable.
The other odd item are the comparisons. Some of these companies ONLY make a mobileOS and others make the entire device, some with multiple OSes. Obviously this is US only and probably not using page hits as a metric because there is no Nokia listed (Why only the US for these global companies?). Palm has two OSes but are they measuring both? Apple uses iPhone OS on the Touch, but I'm sure that isn't used.
It looks like they are cherry picking items and moving timeframes to make one look more favourable and/or another look less favourable. MS did the same thing with the Zune. It makes for a decent marketing ploy but it's far from being truthful, even if accurate.
MS is still doing better than most people give them credit for. Android has considerably less than MS but I can't tell you the name of a WinMO-based phone that made any noise in years.
The stagnation is only for part of year, with new devices from other vendors using those OSes coming out in droves, but since Apple updated the 3GS in June and has been doing YoY updates around the same time to really judge the market accurately we need to look at YoY results.
Why November through February, a four month span? I can't find how they obtained their stats but the more accurate ones use the company's quarterly results, hence three months being more common with RiM being the oddball with quarters a month off from the others. That makes this questionable (not necessarily inaccurate) just questionable.
The other odd item are the comparisons. Some of these companies ONLY make a mobileOS and others make the entire device, some with multiple OSes. Obviously this is US only and probably not using page hits as a metric because there is no Nokia listed (Why only the US for these global companies?). Palm has two OSes but are they measuring both? Apple uses iPhone OS on the Touch, but I'm sure that isn't used.
It looks like they are cherry picking items and moving timeframes to make one look more favourable and/or another look less favourable. MS did the same thing with the Zune. It makes for a decent marketing ploy but it's far from being truthful, even if accurate.
What can I say - for every analyst report, there are half a dozen contradictory reports looking at the same topic but from different angle.
That's all great, but what I was responding to is this:
"Once someone gets into the Apple ecosystem, whether it was as in previous years, an iPod or now with the iPhone-they're hooked! Mainly as you say because of the superior product and seemingly constant improvements provided."
My point was that the facts don't seem to bear out that folks get hooked.
Fair point but a lot do get hooked. The iPod spans $60-400 and so many who buy the cheaper ones may/will not be able to afford a $1000 laptop whether they want one or not. iPhones are more of a similar premium item and may well drive mac converts. Something has to explain the 5x growth in Macs sold per quarter since 2003. I would bet that most people who switch to mac owned some apple item before hand, though obviously not all owners of apple products switched. Both the original point and your rebuttal are both overblown.
I know lots of iPod owners who wished they could justify a Mac but they can't.
When people disagree, not everything is an opinion. There are facts, there are reasoned arguments leading to conclusions, and there are opinions. Of these, opinions carry the least weight. Your "argument", if we can even call it that, attempts to prop up your opinion that Android users are very satisfied with the fact that Android's market share has increased. But you present no reasoned argument showing how these are related, and the asserted link completely falls apart when examined critically.
So, no, it's not my opinion, it's a reasoned criticism of your argument. Not all ideas are of equal value.
Fair point but a lot do get hooked. The iPod spans $60-400 and so many who buy the cheaper ones may/will not be able to afford a $1000 laptop whether they want one or not. iPhones are more of a similar premium item and may well drive mac converts. Something has to explain the 5x growth in Macs sold per quarter since 2003. I would bet that most people who switch to mac owned some apple item before hand, though obviously not all owners of apple products switched. Both the original point and your rebuttal are both overblown.
I know lots of iPod owners who wished they could justify a Mac but they can't.
I would have to agree with this. I have helped a few people switch to Macs over years. In the last 5-10 years almost all were introduced to Apple products through the iPod. It is a great example of Apple design and quality and really helps to get them interested in the rest of Apple's products. They iPhone/iPod Touch is doing an even better job because it does so much more than the non-touch iPods did, in terms of being a full fledged pocket computer. Does owning an iPod mean everyone that owns one will switch to Macs? No. But the trend is undeniable. Two of my friends started with iPods but both used to be very amused with my addiction to Apple. One bought the 1st gen iPod and and the other started with the 1st nano (or mini or whatever it was called at the time). Between the two of them, they have since bought 2 Mac minis, 2 iPhones, 2 MBP, a 24" iMac and a MacBook, and various iPod models (both are single with lots of disposable income). Other than for work, they have both given up on Windows entirely. They are extreme cases but not that unusual. My sister in law and her family started with various iPods. Her husband, just a few years ago used to love to tell me how Macs were toys. He got an iPhone last year to see what the hype was about. They just bought a 27" iMac as their primary home computer.
I think what the iPhone/iPod Touch do, is allow people who might not consider a Mac, and easy entry into the Apple ecosystem. Buying a Mac is not only more expensive (initially), but is it seen as a chore to switch over. There is a perceived barrier to changing platforms and feel they would be stuck with an expensive paper wight if it didn't suit them. But cellphones are considered to be very temporary devices, upgraded frequently. So, they don't see a barrier to trying an iPhone. So, it isn't just that the iPhone is cheaper to begin with, it is also not seen as inconvenient to switch to. Once they do that, many realize that perhaps the Mac is worth a try.
When people disagree, not everything is an opinion. There are facts, there are reasoned arguments leading to conclusions, and there are opinions. Of these, opinions carry the least weight. Your "argument", if we can even call it that, attempts to prop up your opinion that Android users are very satisfied with the fact that Android's market share has increased. But you present no reasoned argument showing how these are related, and the asserted link completely falls apart when examined critically.
So, no, it's not my opinion, it's a reasoned criticism of your argument. Not all ideas are of equal value.
Frak! I just dropped my 3G yesterday and shattered the screen. Do you think I even thought about getting a Droid or Nexus One? Nope. My quandry is "Do I get a 3GS today or wait until the supposed refresh in June?"
Ain't no way I'm going anywhere else for a phone. I was an early-adopter and Apple never failed to satisfy me with the iPhone.
What to do? What to do?
btw, the iPhone still works flawlessly with the shattered screen. It just looks like a spider spun a web across the device.
Comments
anantksundaram,
I know, I just do not know where to find the WYSIWYG tool to add the TM.
CGC
Oh gosh, it's so simple that I feel foolish telling you this.....
In Safari, go to Edit ➡ Special Characters ⇒ Miscellaneous ➪ candy store......
Geeeez! OK kiddies, let's review our statistical analysis:
margin of error is calculated against potential for survey error, and survey population representation of the larger population. You can have a smaller sample profile as long as it is effectively representative of the larger population it extrapolates to. If your survey is flawed it increases the margin of error outside of the issue of representation. However, you cannot do a detailed statistical representation of the survey population outside of general data points due to increasing variance as you separate down the individual population. So you could not, for example use the detail "X% of users prefer the keyboard of the Blackberry to the keyboard of the Nokia N97 when you have only one respondent providing the data point. You can report, that of the users surveyed X% indicated this, but not call that out as indicative of the larger population.
Clear? Good - quiz on Friday. Class dismissed.
You forgot to add the classic joke told by statisticians themselves:
"Give me your conclusion and I shall provide the statistics you "need", using your data."
CGC
***
"Dewey defeats Truman" -- 1948 US Presidential Election
[I wonder what the margin of error was.]
... At this point I would very much like to tell you what I think of you personally, but I would rather not violate forum rules.
Please leave me the hell alone.
@cgc0202
Now, perhaps you realize just what we're dealing with here.
Right?!
I wonder if they are also counting the iPhone OS on the iPod Touch, or just the iPhone.
The projection shows Android overtaking in mid 2011. I would expect it to be faster than that considering that Android is free, cheap and available to all HW vendors. What I don't expect is Apple giving a damn about the marketshare of the smartphone market they reinvigorated. There focus is always on increasing sales, thus increasing profit.
it doesn't follow the actual adoption slope at all in either case and is statistically meaningless, just wishful/wistful thinking on "eurodroid's part. What an excellent source of unbiased reporting too JB!
Oh gosh, it's so simple that I feel foolish telling you this.....
In Safari, go to Edit ➡ Special Characters ⇒ Miscellaneous ➪ candy store......
In System Preferences » Language & Text » Text tab you can add shortcuts. I've added a lot of charcaters I use that aren't found when pressing Option+key.
I also do this for many forums so I can add markup quickly and efficiently. For this forum I use several to make my posts easier to read.
{INDENT}? {/INDENT}
{INDENT}{IMG} {/IMG}{/INDENT}
{COLOR=#e1e1e2}. {/COLOR}
{INDENT}{FONT="Century Gothic"} {/FONT}{/INDENT}
What an excellent source of unbiased reporting too JB!
I never opined one way or the other.
Given that most iPods and iPhones are owned by Windows users, I don't see how you could be correct here.
Despite the popularity of the iPhone, OS X has not gained much market share. How do you explain that?
You fail to understand the concept of market segmentation in your comment. Apple chooses to play in only certain segments e.g. Computers over $1000 in which it has a 90% share. Developers also care about segments for the most part e.g. Education, business, home use etc. depending on the App they are developing. Each segment also has it's characteristics such as average software spend, so if people who buy a $2000 computer spend 5x on software or content those who buy a netbook then they are 5x more valuable consumers to a developer. Microsoft is dominant in corporates and cheap home pcs bur Apple commands a much higher share of $s spent than a simple unit count conveys.
"Market share" is important but you have to understand it at the appropriate level before it means anything.
For the past decade driven by OSX, Apple stores, iPods and iPhones, apple has had huge share growth in all it's target segments and has a very disproportionate share of every $ spent on consumer IT and CE and it is only growing.
Your conclusion may or may not be correct, but the market share growth alone does not support it.
That's your opinion and that's all fine. The only way to know for sure is to continue to watch the trends over time. Satisfaction brings on market share. I see it happening for both Android and iPhone. I'll leave it there.
In the end, it's us consumers are the ones that win. I love the vast array of choices we have now as opposed to just a few years ago.
You fail to understand the concept of market segmentation in your comment. Apple chooses to play in only certain segments e.g. Computers over $1000 in which it has a 90% share. Developers also care about segments for the most part e.g. Education, business, home use etc. depending on the App they are developing. Each segment also has it's characteristics such as average software spend, so if people who buy a $2000 computer spend 5x on software or content those who buy a netbook then they are 5x more valuable consumers to a developer. Microsoft is dominant in corporates and cheap home pcs bur Apple commands a much higher share of $s spent than a simple unit count conveys.
"Market share" is important but you have to understand it at the appropriate level before it means anything.
For the past decade driven by OSX, Apple stores, iPods and iPhones, apple has had huge share growth in all it's target segments and has a very disproportionate share of every $ spent on consumer IT and CE and it is only growing.
That's all great, but what I was responding to is this:
"Once someone gets into the Apple ecosystem, whether it was as in previous years, an iPod or now with the iPhone-they're hooked! Mainly as you say because of the superior product and seemingly constant improvements provided."
My point was that the facts don't seem to bear out that folks get hooked.
I wonder what market share trash Microsoft fans will put out now with these numbers. I notice that's all they seem to think of when talking about Apple or Linux. Gets tiring after a while.
Probably something like: http://www.dailytech.com/article.aspx?newsid=18061
Anyway, for those lazy to read, here's market share changes from November 2009 to February 2010:
Microsoft: down from 19.1% 15.1% (losers!)
Palm: down from 7.2% to 5.4% (had less, lost less)
Apple: down from 25.5% to 25.4% (stagnating, pretty much)
RIM: up from 40.8% to 42.1% (not bad considering they already have that big chunk of market)
Android: up from 3.8% to 9.0% (nice jump)
So... I know about common belief about people waiting for iPhone 4 to come out, but November was closer to 3GS release than the next one, so if people start waiting for new model that quick after previous one is released... plus there was Christmas season... doesn't sound right.
I'm not MS fan when it comes to phones, by the way - I do have iPhone.
Probably something like: http://www.dailytech.com/article.aspx?newsid=18061
Anyway, for those lazy to read, here's market share changes from November 2009 to February 2010:
Microsoft: down from 19.1% 15.1% (losers!)
Palm: down from 7.2% to 5.4% (had less, lost less)
Apple: down from 25.5% to 25.4% (stagnating, pretty much)
RIM: up from 40.8% to 42.1% (not bad considering they already have that big chunk of market)
Android: up from 3.8% to 9.0% (nice jump)
So... I know about common belief about people waiting for iPhone 4 to come out, but November was closer to 3GS release than the next one, so if people start waiting for new model that quick after previous one is released... plus there was Christmas season... doesn't sound right.
I'm not MS fan when it comes to phones, by the way - I do have iPhone.
MS is still doing better than most people give them credit for. Android has considerably less than MS but I can't tell you the name of a WinMO-based phone that made any noise in years.
The stagnation is only for part of year, with new devices from other vendors using those OSes coming out in droves, but since Apple updated the 3GS in June and has been doing YoY updates around the same time to really judge the market accurately we need to look at YoY results.
Why November through February, a four month span? I can't find how they obtained their stats but the more accurate ones use the company's quarterly results, hence three months being more common with RiM being the oddball with quarters a month off from the others. That makes this questionable (not necessarily inaccurate) just questionable.
The other odd item are the comparisons. Some of these companies ONLY make a mobileOS and others make the entire device, some with multiple OSes. Obviously this is US only and probably not using page hits as a metric because there is no Nokia listed (Why only the US for these global companies?). Palm has two OSes but are they measuring both? Apple uses iPhone OS on the Touch, but I'm sure that isn't used.
It looks like they are cherry picking items and moving timeframes to make one look more favourable and/or another look less favourable. MS did the same thing with the Zune. It makes for a decent marketing ploy but it's far from being truthful, even if accurate.
MS is still doing better than most people give them credit for. Android has considerably less than MS but I can't tell you the name of a WinMO-based phone that made any noise in years.
The stagnation is only for part of year, with new devices from other vendors using those OSes coming out in droves, but since Apple updated the 3GS in June and has been doing YoY updates around the same time to really judge the market accurately we need to look at YoY results.
Why November through February, a four month span? I can't find how they obtained their stats but the more accurate ones use the company's quarterly results, hence three months being more common with RiM being the oddball with quarters a month off from the others. That makes this questionable (not necessarily inaccurate) just questionable.
The other odd item are the comparisons. Some of these companies ONLY make a mobileOS and others make the entire device, some with multiple OSes. Obviously this is US only and probably not using page hits as a metric because there is no Nokia listed (Why only the US for these global companies?). Palm has two OSes but are they measuring both? Apple uses iPhone OS on the Touch, but I'm sure that isn't used.
It looks like they are cherry picking items and moving timeframes to make one look more favourable and/or another look less favourable. MS did the same thing with the Zune. It makes for a decent marketing ploy but it's far from being truthful, even if accurate.
What can I say - for every analyst report, there are half a dozen contradictory reports looking at the same topic but from different angle.
The truth is out there
That's all great, but what I was responding to is this:
"Once someone gets into the Apple ecosystem, whether it was as in previous years, an iPod or now with the iPhone-they're hooked! Mainly as you say because of the superior product and seemingly constant improvements provided."
My point was that the facts don't seem to bear out that folks get hooked.
Fair point but a lot do get hooked. The iPod spans $60-400 and so many who buy the cheaper ones may/will not be able to afford a $1000 laptop whether they want one or not. iPhones are more of a similar premium item and may well drive mac converts. Something has to explain the 5x growth in Macs sold per quarter since 2003. I would bet that most people who switch to mac owned some apple item before hand, though obviously not all owners of apple products switched. Both the original point and your rebuttal are both overblown.
I know lots of iPod owners who wished they could justify a Mac but they can't.
That's your opinion and that's all fine.
When people disagree, not everything is an opinion. There are facts, there are reasoned arguments leading to conclusions, and there are opinions. Of these, opinions carry the least weight. Your "argument", if we can even call it that, attempts to prop up your opinion that Android users are very satisfied with the fact that Android's market share has increased. But you present no reasoned argument showing how these are related, and the asserted link completely falls apart when examined critically.
So, no, it's not my opinion, it's a reasoned criticism of your argument. Not all ideas are of equal value.
Fair point but a lot do get hooked. The iPod spans $60-400 and so many who buy the cheaper ones may/will not be able to afford a $1000 laptop whether they want one or not. iPhones are more of a similar premium item and may well drive mac converts. Something has to explain the 5x growth in Macs sold per quarter since 2003. I would bet that most people who switch to mac owned some apple item before hand, though obviously not all owners of apple products switched. Both the original point and your rebuttal are both overblown.
I know lots of iPod owners who wished they could justify a Mac but they can't.
I would have to agree with this. I have helped a few people switch to Macs over years. In the last 5-10 years almost all were introduced to Apple products through the iPod. It is a great example of Apple design and quality and really helps to get them interested in the rest of Apple's products. They iPhone/iPod Touch is doing an even better job because it does so much more than the non-touch iPods did, in terms of being a full fledged pocket computer. Does owning an iPod mean everyone that owns one will switch to Macs? No. But the trend is undeniable. Two of my friends started with iPods but both used to be very amused with my addiction to Apple. One bought the 1st gen iPod and and the other started with the 1st nano (or mini or whatever it was called at the time). Between the two of them, they have since bought 2 Mac minis, 2 iPhones, 2 MBP, a 24" iMac and a MacBook, and various iPod models (both are single with lots of disposable income). Other than for work, they have both given up on Windows entirely. They are extreme cases but not that unusual. My sister in law and her family started with various iPods. Her husband, just a few years ago used to love to tell me how Macs were toys. He got an iPhone last year to see what the hype was about. They just bought a 27" iMac as their primary home computer.
I think what the iPhone/iPod Touch do, is allow people who might not consider a Mac, and easy entry into the Apple ecosystem. Buying a Mac is not only more expensive (initially), but is it seen as a chore to switch over. There is a perceived barrier to changing platforms and feel they would be stuck with an expensive paper wight if it didn't suit them. But cellphones are considered to be very temporary devices, upgraded frequently. So, they don't see a barrier to trying an iPhone. So, it isn't just that the iPhone is cheaper to begin with, it is also not seen as inconvenient to switch to. Once they do that, many realize that perhaps the Mac is worth a try.
When people disagree, not everything is an opinion. There are facts, there are reasoned arguments leading to conclusions, and there are opinions. Of these, opinions carry the least weight. Your "argument", if we can even call it that, attempts to prop up your opinion that Android users are very satisfied with the fact that Android's market share has increased. But you present no reasoned argument showing how these are related, and the asserted link completely falls apart when examined critically.
So, no, it's not my opinion, it's a reasoned criticism of your argument. Not all ideas are of equal value.
Right.
Ain't no way I'm going anywhere else for a phone. I was an early-adopter and Apple never failed to satisfy me with the iPhone.
What to do? What to do?
btw, the iPhone still works flawlessly with the shattered screen. It just looks like a spider spun a web across the device.
:sigh:
Another thread ruined by SpotOn/MacTripper and Josh.B./iGenius. When you reply to trolls the terrorists win.
What good is ignore when Anan and others feel they have to respond and they respond and we see their posts anyway?
Please guys, don't feed the trolls. Let's try to stay on topic.