It's certainly unfortunate they released the pictures of the prisoners wearing masks and ear-defenders without an accompanying explanation that they'd just come off the plane. That's what caused half the uproar.
Relating to something else we've been discussing - Colin Powell has now stated he wants the men in Camp X-Ray re-classified as "prisoners of war".
I suspect it's because the government has realised unless they do this, it's going to be impossible to find a solid legal case against these men.
<strong>Relating to something else we've been discussing - Colin Powell has now stated he wants the men in Camp X-Ray re-classified as "prisoners of war".
I suspect it's because the government has realised unless they do this, it's going to be impossible to find a solid legal case against these men.</strong><hr></blockquote>
It also may be that the Geneva conventions say that they have to be considered as such until a court finds otherwise. Regardless of what Rumsfeld has been saying.
<strong>It's certainly unfortunate they released the pictures of the prisoners wearing masks and ear-defenders without an accompanying explanation that they'd just come off the plane. That's what caused half the uproar.
</strong><hr></blockquote>
I read that the way our CIA operative was killed at Mazar-i-sharif was by an Al Qaeda operative ripping his throat out with his teeth. Kind of puts those masks in perspective, doesn't it?
<strong>The Russians withdrew from Afghanistan in 1989, while the Taleban first entered in 1994. One of their first moves was to take the stockpiles of weapons and ammunition stored in Kandahar and Kabul, much of which was provided by the US.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Um ... no. Most of those were left over by the soviets. They left the puppet goverment and army behind to fend for itself. It lost.
<strong>I read that the way our CIA operative was killed at Mazar-i-sharif was by an Al Qaeda operative ripping his throat out with his teeth. Kind of puts those masks in perspective, doesn't it?</strong><hr></blockquote>
I'm not sure if that's true or not, but I completely agree with the decision to chain them, mask them, and strap them into the seats on the plane. I also agree with chaining them hand and foot and being accompanied by two guards whenever they're out of their cages. You have to implement special measures when you have prisoners who'll happily die for their cause.
>I think this paragraph shows that you have fallen foul of the accusation you threw at me earlier. You clearly believe what the media tells you about Europe. I can't believe what an inflated opinion you have of our country, or rather believe that the rest of the world sees something wondrous when it looks at the US.>
It sees something wondrous when we are saving their collective ass. I have an inflated opinion of my country for a damn good reason, its not my fault you're such a cynic.
>And you know the reason Europeans protest in the streets when there are executions in the US? 1. Because as I said, Europe has its do-gooders, just like the US. And 2. Because they take an interest in what's happening in the rest of the world. <
No, its because 1. They are not do-gooders, they are anti-US activists who wait for something to protest about. They are just as active as latino activists in the US who can't wait to get in the streets and whine about something. And 2. because they are ONLY interested in putting down the US because they see our power as something evil, even though they welcome our might when it serves THEIR interest.......................................... ....
<strong>Um ... no. Most of those were left over by the soviets. They left the puppet goverment and army behind to fend for itself. It lost.</strong><hr></blockquote>
I'm sure many of the weapons were Russian, but a large quantity were American. A Pentagon official stated as much when the first reports came in after the surrender of the Taleban.
I actually found this out in a documentary about a different subject in which former CIA agents were discussing September 11 and the lack of intelligence. It was pretty interesting. Most was about the case of Jennifer Harbury, and I think a lot made the news, certainly the argument that the guidelines put in place after Harbury's protests crippled the effectiveness of the CIA in collecting intelligence about groups like al-Qaeda. Anyway, I'm getting way off track.
[quote]Originally posted by steve666:
<strong>belle:
>I think this paragraph shows that you have fallen foul of the accusation you threw at me earlier. You clearly believe what the media tells you about Europe. I can't believe what an inflated opinion you have of our country, or rather believe that the rest of the world sees something wondrous when it looks at the US.>
It sees something wondrous when we are saving their collective ass. I have an inflated opinion of my country for a damn good reason, its not my fault you're such a cynic.
>And you know the reason Europeans protest in the streets when there are executions in the US? 1. Because as I said, Europe has its do-gooders, just like the US. And 2. Because they take an interest in what's happening in the rest of the world. <
No, its because 1. They are not do-gooders, they are anti-US activists who wait for something to protest about. They are just as active as latino activists in the US who can't wait to get in the streets and whine about something. And 2. because they are ONLY interested in putting down the US because they see our power as something evil, even though they welcome our might when it serves THEIR interest.......................................... ....</strong><hr></blockquote>
Wow. Well it's good to know there are still some All-American flag-waving patriots left.
<strong>It's certainly unfortunate they released the pictures of the prisoners wearing masks and ear-defenders without an accompanying explanation that they'd just come off the plane. That's what caused half the uproar.
Relating to something else we've been discussing - Colin Powell has now stated he wants the men in Camp X-Ray re-classified as "prisoners of war".
I suspect it's because the government has realised unless they do this, it's going to be impossible to find a solid legal case against these men.</strong><hr></blockquote>
If you have not read it already this article may interest you.
Another look at how the perception of the treatment of the prisoners is affecting things around the world. If these people kill that journalist they will find that the fury of the US will be turned on them next. I hope they don't have to find that out as I want him to live. He has a kid on the way.
<strong><a href="http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/nm/20020209/pl_nm/attack_detainees_image_dc_1"; target="_blank">So Bush has finally admitted he was wrong.</a> But he's still selectively applying it. I wouldn't want to be an American soldier caught by some other country after this. They could just decide that the Geneva conventions don't apply to you.</strong><hr></blockquote>
<strong>Where did Bush "admitted he was wrong"?</strong><hr></blockquote>It's an admission that you were wrong when, after criticism, you change a policy that you and your Sec. of Defense have repeatedly stated over the past several weeks.
Did the Japanese apply the Geneva Convention in WWII? Did the Germans? Vietnamese? Would the Taliban if Americans were caught? Did the Somalis?
If you think us treating them better will improve the condition of our POWs if they are caught by terrorists I have a plot of land to sell you............
<strong>It's an admission that you were wrong when, after criticism, you change a policy that you and your Sec. of Defense have repeatedly stated over the past several weeks.</strong><hr></blockquote>
What's going to be different now in the way they are treated? Are the US soldiers guarding them now under orders to stop short sheeting their beds or what? Just what was so damn inhumane about the way we were processing these prisoners? BTW, if these prisoners were real POWs they would simply be released. We wouldn't be talking about how to try them. POWs aren't put on trial.
[quote]... There are plenty of dangers in this constant expression of self-doubt, along with our national obsession about the inconsequential coupled with unconcern for what is critical. We are engaged in multifaceted and completely unpredictable war. Ours is now a high-stakes contest that will change the make-up of the current world; it not only requires all our full attention to what is important, but also a degree of self-confidence in our ability and right to conduct the struggle itself. Our allies are looking to us to assure them we have a vision for the Middle East that is better - not perfect, but better - than the conditions there now that led to 3,000 dead in America. Our enemies wax when we hesitate, wane as we show confidence, power, and justice in our cause. And neutrals simply watch us, gauging the right moment either to join in or bail out, damn or praise us, and release or roundup terrorists.
So let us have some perspective, admit we are human, not divine, and show self-confidence in what we know from the past rather than foreboding about what is unknown in the future. Should there be a thousand traitorous Johnny Walkers in detention, the minutiae of their cases should not warrant more concern than would the life of a single Marine; and if there should be 10,000 terrorists detained in Cuba, I would not care as much about all their beards being shaved off as the safety of a single American pilot.<hr></blockquote>
<strong>What's going to be different now in the way they are treated?</strong><hr></blockquote>
If they're not going to be treated any differently, why in the world did they initially claim the Geneva convention doesn't apply? Was it just gratuitous? And why are they not fully applying it now? IT'S THE GENEVA CONVENTION! Since when did the US have a problem with the Geneva Conventions?
I don't think the prisoners were being tortured or abused. But legal status matters too. If the US openly ignores rules and treaties as basic as Geneva, what kind of clout do we have to ask others to follow human rights treaties, UN resolutions, etc.?
[quote]BTW, if these prisoners were real POWs they would simply be released. We wouldn't be talking about how to try them. POWs aren't put on trial.<hr></blockquote>
All prisoners taken on the battlefield, including the al Qaeda picked up in Afghanistan, must be initially treated as POWs. Then a court can declare their status something different. Bush and Rumsfeld aren't supposed do it themselves.
Comments
Relating to something else we've been discussing - Colin Powell has now stated he wants the men in Camp X-Ray re-classified as "prisoners of war".
I suspect it's because the government has realised unless they do this, it's going to be impossible to find a solid legal case against these men.
<strong>Relating to something else we've been discussing - Colin Powell has now stated he wants the men in Camp X-Ray re-classified as "prisoners of war".
I suspect it's because the government has realised unless they do this, it's going to be impossible to find a solid legal case against these men.</strong><hr></blockquote>
It also may be that the Geneva conventions say that they have to be considered as such until a court finds otherwise. Regardless of what Rumsfeld has been saying.
<strong>It's certainly unfortunate they released the pictures of the prisoners wearing masks and ear-defenders without an accompanying explanation that they'd just come off the plane. That's what caused half the uproar.
</strong><hr></blockquote>
I read that the way our CIA operative was killed at Mazar-i-sharif was by an Al Qaeda operative ripping his throat out with his teeth. Kind of puts those masks in perspective, doesn't it?
<strong>The Russians withdrew from Afghanistan in 1989, while the Taleban first entered in 1994. One of their first moves was to take the stockpiles of weapons and ammunition stored in Kandahar and Kabul, much of which was provided by the US.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Um ... no. Most of those were left over by the soviets. They left the puppet goverment and army behind to fend for itself. It lost.
<strong>I read that the way our CIA operative was killed at Mazar-i-sharif was by an Al Qaeda operative ripping his throat out with his teeth. Kind of puts those masks in perspective, doesn't it?</strong><hr></blockquote>
I'm not sure if that's true or not, but I completely agree with the decision to chain them, mask them, and strap them into the seats on the plane. I also agree with chaining them hand and foot and being accompanied by two guards whenever they're out of their cages. You have to implement special measures when you have prisoners who'll happily die for their cause.
>I think this paragraph shows that you have fallen foul of the accusation you threw at me earlier. You clearly believe what the media tells you about Europe. I can't believe what an inflated opinion you have of our country, or rather believe that the rest of the world sees something wondrous when it looks at the US.>
It sees something wondrous when we are saving their collective ass. I have an inflated opinion of my country for a damn good reason, its not my fault you're such a cynic.
>And you know the reason Europeans protest in the streets when there are executions in the US? 1. Because as I said, Europe has its do-gooders, just like the US. And 2. Because they take an interest in what's happening in the rest of the world. <
No, its because 1. They are not do-gooders, they are anti-US activists who wait for something to protest about. They are just as active as latino activists in the US who can't wait to get in the streets and whine about something. And 2. because they are ONLY interested in putting down the US because they see our power as something evil, even though they welcome our might when it serves THEIR interest.......................................... ....
<strong>Um ... no. Most of those were left over by the soviets. They left the puppet goverment and army behind to fend for itself. It lost.</strong><hr></blockquote>
I'm sure many of the weapons were Russian, but a large quantity were American. A Pentagon official stated as much when the first reports came in after the surrender of the Taleban.
I actually found this out in a documentary about a different subject in which former CIA agents were discussing September 11 and the lack of intelligence. It was pretty interesting. Most was about the case of Jennifer Harbury, and I think a lot made the news, certainly the argument that the guidelines put in place after Harbury's protests crippled the effectiveness of the CIA in collecting intelligence about groups like al-Qaeda. Anyway, I'm getting way off track.
[quote]Originally posted by steve666:
<strong>belle:
>I think this paragraph shows that you have fallen foul of the accusation you threw at me earlier. You clearly believe what the media tells you about Europe. I can't believe what an inflated opinion you have of our country, or rather believe that the rest of the world sees something wondrous when it looks at the US.>
It sees something wondrous when we are saving their collective ass. I have an inflated opinion of my country for a damn good reason, its not my fault you're such a cynic.
>And you know the reason Europeans protest in the streets when there are executions in the US? 1. Because as I said, Europe has its do-gooders, just like the US. And 2. Because they take an interest in what's happening in the rest of the world. <
No, its because 1. They are not do-gooders, they are anti-US activists who wait for something to protest about. They are just as active as latino activists in the US who can't wait to get in the streets and whine about something. And 2. because they are ONLY interested in putting down the US because they see our power as something evil, even though they welcome our might when it serves THEIR interest.......................................... ....</strong><hr></blockquote>
Wow. Well it's good to know there are still some All-American flag-waving patriots left.
<strong>It's certainly unfortunate they released the pictures of the prisoners wearing masks and ear-defenders without an accompanying explanation that they'd just come off the plane. That's what caused half the uproar.
Relating to something else we've been discussing - Colin Powell has now stated he wants the men in Camp X-Ray re-classified as "prisoners of war".
I suspect it's because the government has realised unless they do this, it's going to be impossible to find a solid legal case against these men.</strong><hr></blockquote>
If you have not read it already this article may interest you.
www.telegraph.co.uk
Speaks to your post and to why I think our treatment of these criminals/prisoners/warriors, is not undeserved.
Another look at how the perception of the treatment of the prisoners is affecting things around the world. If these people kill that journalist they will find that the fury of the US will be turned on them next. I hope they don't have to find that out as I want him to live. He has a kid on the way.
I totally agree with the above quote, and of course: you would feel the same way if your loved-ones were incinerated on Sept.11th!
<strong><a href="http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/nm/20020209/pl_nm/attack_detainees_image_dc_1"; target="_blank">So Bush has finally admitted he was wrong.</a> But he's still selectively applying it. I wouldn't want to be an American soldier caught by some other country after this. They could just decide that the Geneva conventions don't apply to you.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Where did Bush "admitted he was wrong"?
<strong>Where did Bush "admitted he was wrong"?</strong><hr></blockquote>It's an admission that you were wrong when, after criticism, you change a policy that you and your Sec. of Defense have repeatedly stated over the past several weeks.
Publicly and explicity admit you're wrong? Never.
If you think us treating them better will improve the condition of our POWs if they are caught by terrorists I have a plot of land to sell you............
<strong>It's an admission that you were wrong when, after criticism, you change a policy that you and your Sec. of Defense have repeatedly stated over the past several weeks.</strong><hr></blockquote>
What's going to be different now in the way they are treated? Are the US soldiers guarding them now under orders to stop short sheeting their beds or what? Just what was so damn inhumane about the way we were processing these prisoners? BTW, if these prisoners were real POWs they would simply be released. We wouldn't be talking about how to try them. POWs aren't put on trial.
[ 02-10-2002: Message edited by: roger_ramjet ]</p>
[quote]... There are plenty of dangers in this constant expression of self-doubt, along with our national obsession about the inconsequential coupled with unconcern for what is critical. We are engaged in multifaceted and completely unpredictable war. Ours is now a high-stakes contest that will change the make-up of the current world; it not only requires all our full attention to what is important, but also a degree of self-confidence in our ability and right to conduct the struggle itself. Our allies are looking to us to assure them we have a vision for the Middle East that is better - not perfect, but better - than the conditions there now that led to 3,000 dead in America. Our enemies wax when we hesitate, wane as we show confidence, power, and justice in our cause. And neutrals simply watch us, gauging the right moment either to join in or bail out, damn or praise us, and release or roundup terrorists.
So let us have some perspective, admit we are human, not divine, and show self-confidence in what we know from the past rather than foreboding about what is unknown in the future. Should there be a thousand traitorous Johnny Walkers in detention, the minutiae of their cases should not warrant more concern than would the life of a single Marine; and if there should be 10,000 terrorists detained in Cuba, I would not care as much about all their beards being shaved off as the safety of a single American pilot.<hr></blockquote>
<strong>What's going to be different now in the way they are treated?</strong><hr></blockquote>
If they're not going to be treated any differently, why in the world did they initially claim the Geneva convention doesn't apply? Was it just gratuitous? And why are they not fully applying it now? IT'S THE GENEVA CONVENTION! Since when did the US have a problem with the Geneva Conventions?
I don't think the prisoners were being tortured or abused. But legal status matters too. If the US openly ignores rules and treaties as basic as Geneva, what kind of clout do we have to ask others to follow human rights treaties, UN resolutions, etc.?
[quote]BTW, if these prisoners were real POWs they would simply be released. We wouldn't be talking about how to try them. POWs aren't put on trial.<hr></blockquote>
All prisoners taken on the battlefield, including the al Qaeda picked up in Afghanistan, must be initially treated as POWs. Then a court can declare their status something different. Bush and Rumsfeld aren't supposed do it themselves.
[ 02-10-2002: Message edited by: yablaka ]</p>
[ 02-10-2002: Message edited by: yablaka ]</p>