If the iPad is not a computer now, then what would it need in order to be classified as one?
Self update the OS and printing without another computer on the network? Everything else is just nice-to-have, but any DEPENDENCY on another computer makes it less than a full computer, by definition.
Quote:
Surely it's only limited by software and hardware? If a MKII iPad had better connectivity to more peripheral devices (printers etc) would it be more computer like? It would still be an iPad, tablet etc..
No, it's limited by Apple. Software can solve both of the above points (and easily I might add -- no Apple doesn't need to write a zillion drivers for every printer on the planet, they just need to support the standard already built-into the OS: PostScript), but as long as Apple maintains an iron-grip around the iOS platform, progress will be rather slow.
You can?t do those things on a netbook either. I guess it?s not a PC then.
Well, you could, if you really wanted to. I don't believe there's anything about a netbook that would even prevent Windows Server from being installed on it. But would Maya run well on a netbook? Probably not.
Self update the OS and printing without another computer on the network? Everything else is just nice-to-have, but any DEPENDENCY on another computer makes it less than a full computer, by definition.
No, it's limited by Apple. Software can solve both of the above points (and easily I might add -- no Apple doesn't need to write a zillion drivers for every printer on the planet, they just need to support the standard already built-into the OS: PostScript), but as long as Apple maintains an iron-grip around the iOS platform, progress will be rather slow.
How is this supposed to work? Printer drivers provide access to printer-specific operations. PostScript doesn't do that, and what's more, not every printer supports PostScript. Not by a long-shot.
Apple doesn't write printer drivers anyway. The printer manufacturers do that, and as we longtime Mac users know so well, they often don't keep their drivers for the Mac as up-to-date as they do for Windows, and often fail to implement all of the printer's features on the Mac.
The lack of direct printing from the iPad has less to do with Apple's "iron grip" on iOS than an effort to avoid user frustration with features that don't work.
I'm sorry but since there is a persistent desire to define PC as "whatever is what meets my needs of the moment" we cannot continue this fruitfully as a discussion FMPOV. Consider that all your internet services are hosted on servers upon which your individual PC is dependent in order to deliver your content. Limited functionality doesn't make a device NOT a PC, just not a PC you would use for whatever your needs are. Likewise dependence on another device be it internet server, jackable other computing device or peripheral doesn't provide enough reason to declare something not a PC.
But for most of you, ironically since I have been in technology for more than 30 years (more than forty actually - but I am only referencing those as a paid professional), you have an inherent resistance to shifting the paradigm. Which on one hand is perfectly understandable, but on the other leads to less fruitful discussions as this resistance means that you cannot let go of your own self-determined definitions, and see the paradigm shift for what it is. Having been part of several of these shifts myself, I know where you're coming from, but it is interesting to be as old as I am, and yet better able than many of you to accept this shift without the appearance of panicked resistance.
I'm sorry but since there is a persistent desire to define PC as "whatever is what meets my needs of the moment" we cannot continue this fruitfully as a discussion FMPOV. Consider that all your internet services are hosted on servers upon which your individual PC is dependent in order to deliver your content. Limited functionality doesn't make a device NOT a PC, just not a PC you would use for whatever your needs are. Likewise dependence on another device be it internet server, jackable other computing device or peripheral doesn't provide enough reason to declare something not a PC.
But for most of you, ironically since I have been in technology for more than 30 years (more than forty actually - but I am only referencing those as a paid professional), you have an inherent resistance to shifting the paradigm. Which on one hand is perfectly understandable, but on the other leads to less fruitful discussions as this resistance means that you cannot let go of your own self-determined definitions, and see the paradigm shift for what it is. Having been part of several of these shifts myself, I know where you're coming from, but it is interesting to be as old as I am, and yet better able than many of you to accept this shift without the appearance of panicked resistance.
A Wyse terminal is not a PC, even if you have access to a desktop running ultra high end "professional" apps. So the presence of cloud computing cannot "make" the iPad anymore of a PC than it would be without.
You're argument is circular -- the fact that a device suits your needs insofar as a PC would have also suited those needs doesn't make the iPad a PC. Just like a hatchback isn't a tractor-trailer, even though the hatchback fulfills your needs for hauling stuff.
I think that right there is the key factor. As long as I need a PC to set the thing up and manage it's content, it's not a PC. Right now the iPad is primarily a client device, a consumer of content (whether it be photos, documents, email, web, etc). The Photo application is a prime example. Great for viewing photos, but you can't organize, edit, or tag your photos. You are 100% dependant on your PC to manage your photos.
So are you saying that when I used Time Machine from my old Laptop to set up my new laptop that that made the new laptop not a PC? It is way too cumbersome and error prone to manually move everything over. Users need an existing PC to manage that process.
And trying to say a chunk of hardware is or is not something based on an installed software application is ridiculous. In iPhoto 1 you could not tag photos, does that mean we retroactively have to classify every Mac a non-PC up until the version of iPhoto that introduced tagging? The logic of doing that is ludicrous, your whole post is broken by poor logic and fragile obsolete definitions.
Add front and back cameras, Retina Display, more RAM, no Bezel.... and I am going to ditch my upgrade and upgrade. I also want a 7" model with a phone that I can carry in my lab coat pocket.
It would be nice if I can hook up to the dash of the car to have music, GPS mapping, other car functions, etc....the unit that is included in my car requires that the owner navigate a 200 page manual. Looses all the info when the battery goes dead!
I know these are just wishes... but the point I want to make is that the iOS platform has a lot of room to grow in terms of products.
Reclassifying the iPad as a PC in terms of sales would catapult Apple past rivals Dell and HP, elevating the Mac maker to the No. 1 computer manufacturer in the U.S., one Wall Street analyst has noted.
And vice-versa, when these other companies release tablets, sales figures (for computers) will not include the tablets?
Perhaps it isn't, but I wasn't attempting to define what a PC is, only that the iPad is currently not up to what we presently call a "PC" -- or a Mac -- I don't want the term PC here to define an IBM/Windows PC. Even the Commodore Amiga was a PC in its time, and was far more general purpose than the iPad is now -- so if it's not up to 1990's standards of what a PC can **DO** then it's not a PC.
I can state a case that an iPod is not a personal computer because I can't write programs on the device that run on the device (BASiC).
Conversely, I can state a case that the Altair is not a personal computer because the only native I/O is a row of toggle switches and a corresponding row of lights -- you set the 8 switches, verify them in the lights, toggle the enter switch and, voila you have entered a character into the computer.
Similar cases can be stated for almost any comparison-- from what, arguably, were the first personal computers (Apple ][ of 1978, IBM/pc 0f 1981) to the popular definition(s) of personal computers we have today.
I personally sold each of the above-mentioned devices to customers (persons) -- as well as many of the follow-on devices through 1989.
Were they all personal computers? Were none of them personal computers?
I think the former-- let me explain why:
I think most will agree that the hardware in smart phones, iPod Touches and iPads (tablets) qualify them as computers.
Then we are left with what differentiates a "personal computer" from a "computer"?
It is the "ability of the customer (the person) to make the computer do what the person wants it to do.
It isn't, necessarily, what OS the computer runs -- The early computers didn't have OSes.
It isn't, necessarily, what peripherals you can attach to the computer -- The early computers had Paper Tape, and Magnetic Tape I/O, TeleTypes for Key Entry.
I Have FCS Studio, and some very expensive Plugins to do rotoscoping, compositing, titling, e.g. non-liner A/V editing. I do that on my dual-display iMac personal computer.
We have a central media library of 10,000 songs, 700 movies, 500 TV shows and 1,000 Podcasts. It is stored on 2 2-Terabyte drives connected to a headless/keyboardless Mac Mini personal computer
We have a new AppleTV personal computer that allows us to stream everything on the media library (or other computers) to our HDTV and stereo system(s) (inside and outside).
I have an iPad 3G personal computer that I use to "keep in touch", play games, stream content -- on the couch, in the back yard, at a restaurant (HotSpot), or in the middle of a park.
To me, all of these are personal computers because I can make them do what I want them to do -- what could be more personal than that?
A PC is able to connect to a network domain and be policed via GPO. It is able to be burn DVDs, cds. In a small enough environment, it can act a temporary file share or print server (it would have to be capable and of course, only temporary). It is also able to be custom made, have parts replaced when they cause issues and easily upgradeable. It can also support multiple monitors if need be. it can act a DVR if need be. That's just some of things a PC can do that an iPad can't do.
I'm sorry but since there is a persistent desire to define PC as "whatever is what meets my needs of the moment" we cannot continue this fruitfully as a discussion FMPOV. Consider that all your internet services are hosted on servers upon which your individual PC is dependent in order to deliver your content. Limited functionality doesn't make a device NOT a PC, just not a PC you would use for whatever your needs are. Likewise dependence on another device be it internet server, jackable other computing device or peripheral doesn't provide enough reason to declare something not a PC.
But for most of you, ironically since I have been in technology for more than 30 years (more than forty actually - but I am only referencing those as a paid professional), you have an inherent resistance to shifting the paradigm. Which on one hand is perfectly understandable, but on the other leads to less fruitful discussions as this resistance means that you cannot let go of your own self-determined definitions, and see the paradigm shift for what it is. Having been part of several of these shifts myself, I know where you're coming from, but it is interesting to be as old as I am, and yet better able than many of you to accept this shift without the appearance of panicked resistance.
Well stated, and very true. As I pointed out in the previous debate on this subject, the entire "PC" category is ultimately arbitrary, and has a habit of expanding and contracting depending on the argument someone is trying support. For many years, the debate was over whether the Mac was a PC. Plenty said the Mac wasn't a PC since it didn't use IBM's hardware platform or x86 processors. No wonder this debate quickly turns religious. It always has, really.
So are you saying that when I used Time Machine from my old Laptop to set up my new laptop that that made the new laptop not a PC? It is way too cumbersome and error prone to manually move everything over. Users need an existing PC to manage that process.
No they don't. You favored the easier route available to you, but you could have just as well installed OS-X from DVD. You didn't need any other computer to set up your computer. And calling the Time Capsule a PC is more of a stretch than the iPad.
A Wyse terminal is not a PC, even if you have access to a desktop running ultra high end "professional" apps. So the presence of cloud computing cannot "make" the iPad anymore of a PC than it would be without.
You're argument is circular -- the fact that a device suits your needs insofar as a PC would have also suited those needs doesn't make the iPad a PC. Just like a hatchback isn't a tractor-trailer, even though the hatchback fulfills your needs for hauling stuff.
One final thought - then I really have to let this go most of you are just struggling too much with this. From my posting above let me re-quote the standard definition of a PC:
The base functionality of a PC is the ability to run programs that allow functions to be performed across a broad range of needs, usually requiring a CPU, RAM/memory storage, frequently a network interface and user interfaces - input and output.
But in the same way a server is not strictly speaking a PC (and yes you can put a server OS on decently configured PC hardware), I can drop a 12-cylinder diesel engine in my (heavily modified) hatchback, but it doesn't make my hatchback a semitractor. So if I want high mpg and occasional hauling capacity, then the transportation device for me is the hatchback. If I want to be able to haul tons of materiel cross-country, and be damned the fuel burn rate, then the semitractor/trailer is my device. I can also (judging from commercials) pull a semi-trailer with a pickup truck.
Your argument above is NOT about what is and is not a PC but about what is and is not able to do the things you want to do, pure and simple. Both of your examples, semitractor/trailer and hatchback are transportation devices. However the cateogry is more closely defined than that - as we talk about PCs as a class of computational device, the subset of characteristics as I quoted above are what define the PC device as a class. So what your comparison SHOULD BE is between consumer class automobiles, say a Honda Fit and a Ferrari, for example.
What we are looking at here is what defines automobiles as a class of transportation device, as we define PCs as a class of computational device. So you have a broad spectrum of automobiles from small sub-compact to oversized HUM-V, all of which share common characteristics of engine/drivetrain, energy source containment, four or more wheels, a body enclosure, environmental and user interfaces (braking systems, interior environmental controls, steering, signals, headlamps, etc).
I have belabored this argument for far too long with too little success here. I respectfully withdraw from this discussion point.
Self update the OS and printing without another computer on the network? Everything else is just nice-to-have, but any DEPENDENCY on another computer makes it less than a full computer, by definition.
No, it's limited by Apple. Software can solve both of the above points (and easily I might add -- no Apple doesn't need to write a zillion drivers for every printer on the planet, they just need to support the standard already built-into the OS: PostScript), but as long as Apple maintains an iron-grip around the iOS platform, progress will be rather slow.
Thanks for the feedback. I guess I'd love to sell the MacBook as I'd happily get by with my iPad. Alas, as you point out, it's still dependant on another device. \
Self update the OS and printing without another computer on the network? Everything else is just nice-to-have, but any DEPENDENCY on another computer makes it less than a full computer, by definition.
Mmm... Where do Windows and Mac OS X updates come from-- Don't you download them from another computer on a network?
As an iOS developer, I have the 4.2 beta installed on our iPads. You can print quite nicely to a printer attached to a router (AirPort Extreme) or a computer.
We made home-made linguini last night. While waiting for the pasta to dry, I plopped on the couch with my iPad to watch the Giants (lose), while surfing a recipe for clam sauce. Recipe found, I touched the button and printed to the old HP5700 on the AirPort Extreme. The print output was too small to read-- so I pinch-zoomed the recipe until it filled the iPad screen, set auto-sleep to never, and propped it up next to the stove (Easel Case).. Actually it was on top of the toaster because I don't have the best eyesight. We finessed cooking the pasta, the sauce and watching the game for about an hour. Periodically I would go into the kitchen, scan the recipe (continuously displayed) and add the appropriate ingredient/action.
I have a laptop with which I never would attempt this! The iPad met my personal needs on the couch and in the kitchen.
Quote:
Originally Posted by nonarKitten
Well, you could, if you really wanted to. I don't believe there's anything about a netbook that would even prevent Windows Server from being installed on it. But would Maya run well on a netbook? Probably not.
You can run Apache Server on any iPhone or iPad Touch... Along with PSP and SQLlite!
You can run uLinux on a 30 GB ca 2004 iPod.
I don't mean to focus on you, because I agree with most of what you say.
I suspect you have more that one personal computer-- likely, at least 1 desktop, and at least 1 Laptop.
Why both? You might answer: Duh... portability!
What do you sacrifice for that portability: Speed, CPU power, GPU power, RAM, HDD capacity, I/O devices (scanners, midis, etc), Printers...
The point is that a lot of us have more than 1 computer that we have selected to satisfy our needs at performing various tasks in various situations.
The fact that an iPad won't satisfy any of your needs for a personal computer, doesn't mean that it won't satisfy any of my needs... and vice versa.
My needs are my needs -- it would be presumptuous of me to assume that they are your needs... and vice versa.
A PC is able to connect to a network domain and be policed via GPO. It is able to be burn DVDs, cds. In a small enough environment, it can act a temporary file share or print server (it would have to be capable and of course, only temporary). It is also able to be custom made, have parts replaced when they cause issues and easily upgradeable. It can also support multiple monitors if need be. it can act a DVR if need be. That's just some of things a PC can do that an iPad can't do.
A PC isn't really a PC if you can buy it pre-build and don't need to pull out a soldering iron to put it together - otherwise it's just some lame consumer device. Who's with me!?
What you're describing is a hobbyist machine, not what more and more consumers who don't give a damn about upgrading hardware or setting up file/print servers are looking for. The iPad is certainly a Personal Computer - a lot more personal than the machines of the past decades.
Comments
If the iPad is not a computer now, then what would it need in order to be classified as one?
Self update the OS and printing without another computer on the network? Everything else is just nice-to-have, but any DEPENDENCY on another computer makes it less than a full computer, by definition.
Surely it's only limited by software and hardware? If a MKII iPad had better connectivity to more peripheral devices (printers etc) would it be more computer like? It would still be an iPad, tablet etc..
No, it's limited by Apple. Software can solve both of the above points (and easily I might add -- no Apple doesn't need to write a zillion drivers for every printer on the planet, they just need to support the standard already built-into the OS: PostScript), but as long as Apple maintains an iron-grip around the iOS platform, progress will be rather slow.
You can?t do those things on a netbook either. I guess it?s not a PC then.
Well, you could, if you really wanted to. I don't believe there's anything about a netbook that would even prevent Windows Server from being installed on it. But would Maya run well on a netbook? Probably not.
Self update the OS and printing without another computer on the network? Everything else is just nice-to-have, but any DEPENDENCY on another computer makes it less than a full computer, by definition.
No, it's limited by Apple. Software can solve both of the above points (and easily I might add -- no Apple doesn't need to write a zillion drivers for every printer on the planet, they just need to support the standard already built-into the OS: PostScript), but as long as Apple maintains an iron-grip around the iOS platform, progress will be rather slow.
How is this supposed to work? Printer drivers provide access to printer-specific operations. PostScript doesn't do that, and what's more, not every printer supports PostScript. Not by a long-shot.
Apple doesn't write printer drivers anyway. The printer manufacturers do that, and as we longtime Mac users know so well, they often don't keep their drivers for the Mac as up-to-date as they do for Windows, and often fail to implement all of the printer's features on the Mac.
The lack of direct printing from the iPad has less to do with Apple's "iron grip" on iOS than an effort to avoid user frustration with features that don't work.
But for most of you, ironically since I have been in technology for more than 30 years (more than forty actually - but I am only referencing those as a paid professional), you have an inherent resistance to shifting the paradigm. Which on one hand is perfectly understandable, but on the other leads to less fruitful discussions as this resistance means that you cannot let go of your own self-determined definitions, and see the paradigm shift for what it is. Having been part of several of these shifts myself, I know where you're coming from, but it is interesting to be as old as I am, and yet better able than many of you to accept this shift without the appearance of panicked resistance.
I'm sorry but since there is a persistent desire to define PC as "whatever is what meets my needs of the moment" we cannot continue this fruitfully as a discussion FMPOV. Consider that all your internet services are hosted on servers upon which your individual PC is dependent in order to deliver your content. Limited functionality doesn't make a device NOT a PC, just not a PC you would use for whatever your needs are. Likewise dependence on another device be it internet server, jackable other computing device or peripheral doesn't provide enough reason to declare something not a PC.
But for most of you, ironically since I have been in technology for more than 30 years (more than forty actually - but I am only referencing those as a paid professional), you have an inherent resistance to shifting the paradigm. Which on one hand is perfectly understandable, but on the other leads to less fruitful discussions as this resistance means that you cannot let go of your own self-determined definitions, and see the paradigm shift for what it is. Having been part of several of these shifts myself, I know where you're coming from, but it is interesting to be as old as I am, and yet better able than many of you to accept this shift without the appearance of panicked resistance.
A Wyse terminal is not a PC, even if you have access to a desktop running ultra high end "professional" apps. So the presence of cloud computing cannot "make" the iPad anymore of a PC than it would be without.
You're argument is circular -- the fact that a device suits your needs insofar as a PC would have also suited those needs doesn't make the iPad a PC. Just like a hatchback isn't a tractor-trailer, even though the hatchback fulfills your needs for hauling stuff.
I think that right there is the key factor. As long as I need a PC to set the thing up and manage it's content, it's not a PC. Right now the iPad is primarily a client device, a consumer of content (whether it be photos, documents, email, web, etc). The Photo application is a prime example. Great for viewing photos, but you can't organize, edit, or tag your photos. You are 100% dependant on your PC to manage your photos.
So are you saying that when I used Time Machine from my old Laptop to set up my new laptop that that made the new laptop not a PC? It is way too cumbersome and error prone to manually move everything over. Users need an existing PC to manage that process.
And trying to say a chunk of hardware is or is not something based on an installed software application is ridiculous. In iPhoto 1 you could not tag photos, does that mean we retroactively have to classify every Mac a non-PC up until the version of iPhoto that introduced tagging? The logic of doing that is ludicrous, your whole post is broken by poor logic and fragile obsolete definitions.
It would be nice if I can hook up to the dash of the car to have music, GPS mapping, other car functions, etc....the unit that is included in my car requires that the owner navigate a 200 page manual. Looses all the info when the battery goes dead!
I know these are just wishes... but the point I want to make is that the iOS platform has a lot of room to grow in terms of products.
Reclassifying the iPad as a PC in terms of sales would catapult Apple past rivals Dell and HP, elevating the Mac maker to the No. 1 computer manufacturer in the U.S., one Wall Street analyst has noted.
And vice-versa, when these other companies release tablets, sales figures (for computers) will not include the tablets?
Perhaps it isn't, but I wasn't attempting to define what a PC is, only that the iPad is currently not up to what we presently call a "PC" -- or a Mac -- I don't want the term PC here to define an IBM/Windows PC. Even the Commodore Amiga was a PC in its time, and was far more general purpose than the iPad is now -- so if it's not up to 1990's standards of what a PC can **DO** then it's not a PC.
Have a look at the specs of an Altair
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Altair_8800
I can state a case that an iPod is not a personal computer because I can't write programs on the device that run on the device (BASiC).
Conversely, I can state a case that the Altair is not a personal computer because the only native I/O is a row of toggle switches and a corresponding row of lights -- you set the 8 switches, verify them in the lights, toggle the enter switch and, voila you have entered a character into the computer.
Similar cases can be stated for almost any comparison-- from what, arguably, were the first personal computers (Apple ][ of 1978, IBM/pc 0f 1981) to the popular definition(s) of personal computers we have today.
I personally sold each of the above-mentioned devices to customers (persons) -- as well as many of the follow-on devices through 1989.
Were they all personal computers? Were none of them personal computers?
I think the former-- let me explain why:
I think most will agree that the hardware in smart phones, iPod Touches and iPads (tablets) qualify them as computers.
Then we are left with what differentiates a "personal computer" from a "computer"?
It is the "ability of the customer (the person) to make the computer do what the person wants it to do.
It isn't, necessarily, what OS the computer runs -- The early computers didn't have OSes.
It isn't, necessarily, what peripherals you can attach to the computer -- The early computers had Paper Tape, and Magnetic Tape I/O, TeleTypes for Key Entry.
I Have FCS Studio, and some very expensive Plugins to do rotoscoping, compositing, titling, e.g. non-liner A/V editing. I do that on my dual-display iMac personal computer.
We have a central media library of 10,000 songs, 700 movies, 500 TV shows and 1,000 Podcasts. It is stored on 2 2-Terabyte drives connected to a headless/keyboardless Mac Mini personal computer
We have a new AppleTV personal computer that allows us to stream everything on the media library (or other computers) to our HDTV and stereo system(s) (inside and outside).
I have an iPad 3G personal computer that I use to "keep in touch", play games, stream content -- on the couch, in the back yard, at a restaurant (HotSpot), or in the middle of a park.
To me, all of these are personal computers because I can make them do what I want them to do -- what could be more personal than that?
.
A PC is able to connect to a network domain and be policed via GPO. It is able to be burn DVDs, cds. In a small enough environment, it can act a temporary file share or print server (it would have to be capable and of course, only temporary). It is also able to be custom made, have parts replaced when they cause issues and easily upgradeable. It can also support multiple monitors if need be. it can act a DVR if need be. That's just some of things a PC can do that an iPad can't do.
so a MacBook Air isn't a PC?
I'm sorry but since there is a persistent desire to define PC as "whatever is what meets my needs of the moment" we cannot continue this fruitfully as a discussion FMPOV. Consider that all your internet services are hosted on servers upon which your individual PC is dependent in order to deliver your content. Limited functionality doesn't make a device NOT a PC, just not a PC you would use for whatever your needs are. Likewise dependence on another device be it internet server, jackable other computing device or peripheral doesn't provide enough reason to declare something not a PC.
But for most of you, ironically since I have been in technology for more than 30 years (more than forty actually - but I am only referencing those as a paid professional), you have an inherent resistance to shifting the paradigm. Which on one hand is perfectly understandable, but on the other leads to less fruitful discussions as this resistance means that you cannot let go of your own self-determined definitions, and see the paradigm shift for what it is. Having been part of several of these shifts myself, I know where you're coming from, but it is interesting to be as old as I am, and yet better able than many of you to accept this shift without the appearance of panicked resistance.
Well stated, and very true. As I pointed out in the previous debate on this subject, the entire "PC" category is ultimately arbitrary, and has a habit of expanding and contracting depending on the argument someone is trying support. For many years, the debate was over whether the Mac was a PC. Plenty said the Mac wasn't a PC since it didn't use IBM's hardware platform or x86 processors. No wonder this debate quickly turns religious. It always has, really.
So are you saying that when I used Time Machine from my old Laptop to set up my new laptop that that made the new laptop not a PC? It is way too cumbersome and error prone to manually move everything over. Users need an existing PC to manage that process.
No they don't. You favored the easier route available to you, but you could have just as well installed OS-X from DVD. You didn't need any other computer to set up your computer. And calling the Time Capsule a PC is more of a stretch than the iPad.
A Wyse terminal is not a PC, even if you have access to a desktop running ultra high end "professional" apps. So the presence of cloud computing cannot "make" the iPad anymore of a PC than it would be without.
You're argument is circular -- the fact that a device suits your needs insofar as a PC would have also suited those needs doesn't make the iPad a PC. Just like a hatchback isn't a tractor-trailer, even though the hatchback fulfills your needs for hauling stuff.
One final thought - then I really have to let this go most of you are just struggling too much with this. From my posting above let me re-quote the standard definition of a PC:
The base functionality of a PC is the ability to run programs that allow functions to be performed across a broad range of needs, usually requiring a CPU, RAM/memory storage, frequently a network interface and user interfaces - input and output.
But in the same way a server is not strictly speaking a PC (and yes you can put a server OS on decently configured PC hardware), I can drop a 12-cylinder diesel engine in my (heavily modified) hatchback, but it doesn't make my hatchback a semitractor. So if I want high mpg and occasional hauling capacity, then the transportation device for me is the hatchback. If I want to be able to haul tons of materiel cross-country, and be damned the fuel burn rate, then the semitractor/trailer is my device. I can also (judging from commercials) pull a semi-trailer with a pickup truck.
Your argument above is NOT about what is and is not a PC but about what is and is not able to do the things you want to do, pure and simple. Both of your examples, semitractor/trailer and hatchback are transportation devices. However the cateogry is more closely defined than that - as we talk about PCs as a class of computational device, the subset of characteristics as I quoted above are what define the PC device as a class. So what your comparison SHOULD BE is between consumer class automobiles, say a Honda Fit and a Ferrari, for example.
What we are looking at here is what defines automobiles as a class of transportation device, as we define PCs as a class of computational device. So you have a broad spectrum of automobiles from small sub-compact to oversized HUM-V, all of which share common characteristics of engine/drivetrain, energy source containment, four or more wheels, a body enclosure, environmental and user interfaces (braking systems, interior environmental controls, steering, signals, headlamps, etc).
I have belabored this argument for far too long with too little success here. I respectfully withdraw from this discussion point.
Self update the OS and printing without another computer on the network? Everything else is just nice-to-have, but any DEPENDENCY on another computer makes it less than a full computer, by definition.
No, it's limited by Apple. Software can solve both of the above points (and easily I might add -- no Apple doesn't need to write a zillion drivers for every printer on the planet, they just need to support the standard already built-into the OS: PostScript), but as long as Apple maintains an iron-grip around the iOS platform, progress will be rather slow.
Thanks for the feedback. I guess I'd love to sell the MacBook as I'd happily get by with my iPad. Alas, as you point out, it's still dependant on another device.
.
Self update the OS and printing without another computer on the network? Everything else is just nice-to-have, but any DEPENDENCY on another computer makes it less than a full computer, by definition.
Mmm... Where do Windows and Mac OS X updates come from-- Don't you download them from another computer on a network?
As an iOS developer, I have the 4.2 beta installed on our iPads. You can print quite nicely to a printer attached to a router (AirPort Extreme) or a computer.
We made home-made linguini last night. While waiting for the pasta to dry, I plopped on the couch with my iPad to watch the Giants (lose), while surfing a recipe for clam sauce. Recipe found, I touched the button and printed to the old HP5700 on the AirPort Extreme. The print output was too small to read-- so I pinch-zoomed the recipe until it filled the iPad screen, set auto-sleep to never, and propped it up next to the stove (Easel Case).. Actually it was on top of the toaster because I don't have the best eyesight. We finessed cooking the pasta, the sauce and watching the game for about an hour. Periodically I would go into the kitchen, scan the recipe (continuously displayed) and add the appropriate ingredient/action.
I have a laptop with which I never would attempt this! The iPad met my personal needs on the couch and in the kitchen.
Well, you could, if you really wanted to. I don't believe there's anything about a netbook that would even prevent Windows Server from being installed on it. But would Maya run well on a netbook? Probably not.
You can run Apache Server on any iPhone or iPad Touch... Along with PSP and SQLlite!
You can run uLinux on a 30 GB ca 2004 iPod.
I don't mean to focus on you, because I agree with most of what you say.
I suspect you have more that one personal computer-- likely, at least 1 desktop, and at least 1 Laptop.
Why both? You might answer: Duh... portability!
What do you sacrifice for that portability: Speed, CPU power, GPU power, RAM, HDD capacity, I/O devices (scanners, midis, etc), Printers...
The point is that a lot of us have more than 1 computer that we have selected to satisfy our needs at performing various tasks in various situations.
The fact that an iPad won't satisfy any of your needs for a personal computer, doesn't mean that it won't satisfy any of my needs... and vice versa.
My needs are my needs -- it would be presumptuous of me to assume that they are your needs... and vice versa.
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Then we are left with what differentiates a "personal computer" from a "computer"?
It is the "ability of the customer (the person) to make the computer do what the person wants it to do.
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This is 100% true, but will fall on deaf ears.
That's nice, but it's not a PC.
Agreed.
A PC doesn't require a second PC to activate it. Stupid move, Apple.
PC's are a bit old now.. After using an iPad for a week I must say... it's the future.
if it had a 'proper' featured OS then I might agree it being a PC.
iOS is its major downfall.
A PC is able to connect to a network domain and be policed via GPO. It is able to be burn DVDs, cds. In a small enough environment, it can act a temporary file share or print server (it would have to be capable and of course, only temporary). It is also able to be custom made, have parts replaced when they cause issues and easily upgradeable. It can also support multiple monitors if need be. it can act a DVR if need be. That's just some of things a PC can do that an iPad can't do.
A PC isn't really a PC if you can buy it pre-build and don't need to pull out a soldering iron to put it together - otherwise it's just some lame consumer device. Who's with me!?
What you're describing is a hobbyist machine, not what more and more consumers who don't give a damn about upgrading hardware or setting up file/print servers are looking for. The iPad is certainly a Personal Computer - a lot more personal than the machines of the past decades.