You are asking me to understand I point I have just made, myself.
I'm not on about touch replacing anything, I'm talking about iPad-like devices replacing laptops, which I've already seen happen. To me and others I know. We all sold our laptops, kept out desktop and bought iPads.
i highly doubt college student did all that, most of them didnt (sell laptops and buy ipads). i really who the "others that you know" are. grandmas,grandpas, and moms? ipads are designed for them because most of them need big screens and dont like to type, fingers are perfect for them. i cannot see people who needs productivity use an ipad like device to do their work (despite like you said, majority of the work gets done on desktop). ipads cannot replace laptops and will not, simply because touch is not reliable in terms of work. laptops are used during planes rides, classroom lectures, and many other occasions still for portable typing (where precision is needed and only actual keyboards can provide). tapping and typing on an ipad with a touchscreen is way different and less efficient (phones are a different topic). just because you dont need a laptop, does not mean the rest of the world doesn't need laptops. touch typing SUCKS for productivity, and productivity is still needed "on the go". i have friends who bought laptops just because they have the money, but they HATE typing on it in class, in fact, its always used for gaming and watching videos. why? because you dont know when your fingers drift to another key despite the autocorrect. just like the mouse, touch typing wont replace keyboard, and when theres a keyboard, its a laptop. to sum it up, ipad-like devices are for entertainment and media, NOT for work, and people will still need portable, productive, work-capable devices on the go.
"It's not going to happen" according to you. i beg to differ, like i said, it can happen to both laptops and computers. you mentioned "I see iPad-type computers eventually replacing Apple laptops" basically meaning laptops will be touch-based, im saying, it WONT be touch based, but touch optional and additional. even on desktops too because it can integrate amazing multitouch on big screens and still use mouse/cursor whenever needed for precision.
Yeah, just trying to plumb any additional meaning behind the rather obvious lion image... Perhaps another Disney cross-promotion? "Lion King X"?
Somehow, I don't think so. It's about the Mac, and OS X. Really, what else could it be with the description Apple gave it? And considering that, the lion can't be anything else.
People are trying to be too cute with this. Either that, or they're really not thinking.
Can someone explain me what's wrog with mouse tracking in OS X?
Its slow the acceleration does not act like .... well a windows mouse. Applications like Better Touch Tool give you much more control over it than Apple does. Simple fix.
I think an obvious blend of iOS and OS X is an app store for OS X apps. Buying, installing, organizing, etc. with the iOS model has many advantages over the current one.
Organizing? You are joking, right. Currently, how do you organize e.g. 200 Apps in iTunes?
Funny, getting rid of scrollbars was the first thing that came to my mind when I heard that Mac OS X Lion will borrow some UI elements from iOS. They might also do something about how applications are launched. Maybe put them on the desktop like in iOS devices? I also noticed, how streamlined iOs is. Some UI elements only appear only when you need them. Apple could go into that direction.
I had a look at my iPhone today and tried to figure out what else could be "borrowed" besides just UI elements.
1. What about an App store? In Linux, you install software from within the system, too. I think that would be a great way to get software in a quick (less searching the web) and clean (no dmg-files that have to be stored or deleted after install) way.
2. Managing files. In iOs you pretty much can't access your files natively. When you want to use a file, you have to open a specific app for that file. There is no way (and no apparent need) to manage your files manually. I don't think that a desktop OS can completely ditch manual file-management, but I think it's an area where Apple thinks about alternative ways to do it.
It's not going to happen. Don't fool yourself. Touch is great for certain things, but for productivity the mouse is still KING. And it will remain that way. How do I know this? Because Apple's non-touch Mac computers are way more productive than any of their touch products. Why? Because that's the way they were meant to be. iPads are great for business, but not for "work". There's a big difference there. It's appears subtle, but it's major. iPads make businesses work way better than they did, but the real work happens on Macs and PCs.
I see iPad-type computers eventually replacing Apple laptops, but I don't see them replacing Apple desktops. Desktops are the work-horses. Laptops only sold so well because there was no other portable computers around. iPads will fill that niche. And as they become more powerful that will only become more obvious. Desktops however will remain where the majority of work gets done. I envision a future where every house will have a large desktop computer and every faming member will have touch computer for more personal computing. The desktop will be where the kids or the parent goes to "work". Build stuff, make stuff, design stuff, do stuff, as opposed to learning, updating or consuming.
No, for productivity the keyboard is still king. I can't imagine using a mouse or touching the screen to be really productive. If you have to reach for the mouse/trackpad etc you have already lost. The context switch is a huge penalty, just like your CPU missing the local cache and having to go to RAM to fetch data. It will waste a lot of its cycles doing that. And if the data is not in RAM either and you have to go to the disk, that's eternity from CPU point of view.
If you are proficient computer user you probably can touch type at least 80 wpm. So, keystrokes are really cheap. If you learn to drive your OS and apps using keyboard, and in OS X you can, that's one of the great features of the Mac OS X, then you can be way faster than anyone using any specialty pointing device to navigate the UI and drive the apps. You can type up to 10 chars a second, and if those happen to be commands then you can accomplish a lot, and in that same time mouse users will have their hand traveling towards the mouse, jiggling it a bit to find the pointer, moving to the menu bar, clicking on menu, moving down to select the menu option and that's just to do 1 thing of those 10 keystrokes you did in 1 second.
If you use apps that are highly optimized for touch typists like VIM editor that programmers love, then you can be orders of magnitude faster than people that merely use other editors and are also keyboard only users. Same goes for Terminal vs using GUI to accomplish a task.
If you are proficient computer user you probably can touch type at least 80 wpm.
[...]
You can type up to 10 chars a second, and if those happen to be commands then you can accomplish a lot, and in that same time mouse users will have their hand traveling towards the mouse, jiggling it a bit to find the pointer, moving to the menu bar, clicking on menu, moving down to se
You are right. But not everyone who uses a computer is that fast. And speed is not the only variable in the equation here. Point-and-click or touch-and-press for that matter is just more intuitive and accessible for people who are overwhelmed by memorizing 20-odd keyboard commands.
And a way to e-mail quickly, like you can on iOS. There's no reason in the world that Mac OS X can't bring me into composing an e-mail as fast, or even faster than iOS.
To email from an app, most apps support the CMD+SHIFT+I command. However, it is the app developers choice to implement this...
Its slow the acceleration does not act like .... well a windows mouse. Applications like Better Touch Tool give you much more control over it than Apple does. Simple fix.
I'm using MouseZoom prefpane. Just didn't know that it was a big deal for some
The biggest change is that Mac OS X 10.7 will reportedly abandon its current Aqua scroll bars in favor of the "more minimal look" of iOS scroll bars and scrolling behavior. The scroll bars may also adopt "rubber band" elastic scrolling from iOS devices and a native "pull to refresh" feature. Author Federico Viticci is unsure whether the new scrolling features will be turned on by default.
Scroll bars are the opposite logic to iOS scrolling. Using a trackpad, you have to mouse to the window, then slide your 2 fingers downwards to move the page up in MacOSX. On the iOS you have to touch the page and slide 1 finger upwards to move the page up. It'd be nice to see some changes made to this - but a difficult bridge to jump!!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cilago
I think an obvious blend of iOS and OS X is an app store for OS X apps. Buying, installing, organizing, etc. with the iOS model has many advantages over the current one.
I do think this would be a good step, but I'm not sure it's a blend of iOS really.
This would allow far greater control over how an app is installed (or removed) and where it's configuration data resides. It would give us automatic updates to our apps, as well as potentially login to any Mac and have it download/install our applications (I'm betting 10.7 will be intimately linked to the new data centre).
... If you have to reach for the mouse/trackpad etc you have already lost...
...If you are proficient computer user you probably can touch type at least 80 wpm. So, keystrokes are really cheap.
...If you use apps that are highly optimized for touch typists like VIM editor that programmers love, then you can be orders of magnitude faster than people that merely use other editors and are also keyboard only users. Same goes for Terminal vs using GUI to accomplish a task.
Never seen anyone use a mouse at full speed? You would be surprised.
In my experience some tasks can be accomplished faster with a keyboard than a mouse and vise versa. Experienced users use both and 'at the same time'.
But touch chances it all. Because to 'reach for your keyboard' is now the same distance (action) as to reach for your touch screen. So no time lost (if thats important) to be able to do anything, not just typing.
But touch chances it all. Because to 'reach for your keyboard' is now the same distance (action) as to reach for your touch screen. So no time lost (if thats important) to be able to do anything, not just typing.
Think about that.
J.
Wait, wait, wait. We were talking about "touch" as in Magic Trackpad not as in desktop Touch Screen. Because the later is one of the most inefficient and unergonomic ways to work.
Unergonomic: When you work with a keyboard you pretty much only move your fingers, with a mouse or trackpad, you move your hand and your finger. With a touchscreen desktop you have to use your ENTIRE ARM. Try to hold up your arms for 3 minutes and you'll get an idea about what's working with a touchscreen is like that is more accurate than watching Minority Report...
Inefficient: If have a big screen and use a mouse or trackpad you can just crank up the sensitivity. Having a big screen and using a touch interface means that you actually have to move more.
In my opinion, a touch interface is one of the worst ideas for a desktop as long as the screen is standing up.
Finally, I've been waiting for those scroll are to become smaller or even disappear when not in use since leopard came out years ago. I've even looked to 3d party mods but none of them were any better. iOS scroll bars would be a killer feature for me.
As far as changing quicklook I would rather them not, I love it the way it is now.
Are you serious? How can it get any faster than Right Click On Mail Icon -> Compose Message?
Mail needs to be open to do that. I'm not talking about that. I'm taking about clicking a mailto link and sending the message is slower than it is on iOS, because with iOS is only loads the compose window. I'm talking about having a contextual option within the OS to send a quick e-mail in a pop-over right there in whatever app you are in.
Comments
You are asking me to understand I point I have just made, myself.
I'm not on about touch replacing anything, I'm talking about iPad-like devices replacing laptops, which I've already seen happen. To me and others I know. We all sold our laptops, kept out desktop and bought iPads.
i highly doubt college student did all that, most of them didnt (sell laptops and buy ipads). i really who the "others that you know" are. grandmas,grandpas, and moms? ipads are designed for them because most of them need big screens and dont like to type, fingers are perfect for them. i cannot see people who needs productivity use an ipad like device to do their work (despite like you said, majority of the work gets done on desktop). ipads cannot replace laptops and will not, simply because touch is not reliable in terms of work. laptops are used during planes rides, classroom lectures, and many other occasions still for portable typing (where precision is needed and only actual keyboards can provide). tapping and typing on an ipad with a touchscreen is way different and less efficient (phones are a different topic). just because you dont need a laptop, does not mean the rest of the world doesn't need laptops. touch typing SUCKS for productivity, and productivity is still needed "on the go". i have friends who bought laptops just because they have the money, but they HATE typing on it in class, in fact, its always used for gaming and watching videos. why? because you dont know when your fingers drift to another key despite the autocorrect. just like the mouse, touch typing wont replace keyboard, and when theres a keyboard, its a laptop. to sum it up, ipad-like devices are for entertainment and media, NOT for work, and people will still need portable, productive, work-capable devices on the go.
"It's not going to happen" according to you. i beg to differ, like i said, it can happen to both laptops and computers. you mentioned "I see iPad-type computers eventually replacing Apple laptops" basically meaning laptops will be touch-based, im saying, it WONT be touch based, but touch optional and additional. even on desktops too because it can integrate amazing multitouch on big screens and still use mouse/cursor whenever needed for precision.
Is that English.
No, they're from Wisconsin.
You really need to find that movie, it's early Bill Murray and as right up there fun-wise with Caddyshack.
Yeah, just trying to plumb any additional meaning behind the rather obvious lion image... Perhaps another Disney cross-promotion? "Lion King X"?
Somehow, I don't think so. It's about the Mac, and OS X. Really, what else could it be with the description Apple gave it? And considering that, the lion can't be anything else.
People are trying to be too cute with this. Either that, or they're really not thinking.
OSX and iOS will merge eventually.. Maybe a couple years.. After 10.7 perhaps..
iOS is just a scaled down version of OS X with a touch API so what sense does it make to say they will at some point "merge?"
Sgt Hulka comment to 'Psycho' in the movie Stripes. Cant believe I remember this stuff.
Stripes is a Right of Passage movie. I was just becoming a teenager when it came out and we revisited it many times at the university level.
I don't get this. The mouse is more productive than the trackpad. It just is. It's more accurate, and more definitely more quickly.
Apples new trackpad is super accurate. Using the magic mouse and trackpad side by side gives an almost identical experience.
And this is a clear indication that a touch Mac is a real possibility.
Applications on the Mac are currently written for the mouse paradigm. And this gives the mouse its current advantage.
When the applications are rewritten for touch control I think it will defeat the mouse for most purposes.
And I think that you can be very productive on an iPad already.
J.
Can someone explain me what's wrog with mouse tracking in OS X?
Its slow the acceleration does not act like .... well a windows mouse. Applications like Better Touch Tool give you much more control over it than Apple does. Simple fix.
I think an obvious blend of iOS and OS X is an app store for OS X apps. Buying, installing, organizing, etc. with the iOS model has many advantages over the current one.
Organizing? You are joking, right. Currently, how do you organize e.g. 200 Apps in iTunes?
I had a look at my iPhone today and tried to figure out what else could be "borrowed" besides just UI elements.
1. What about an App store? In Linux, you install software from within the system, too. I think that would be a great way to get software in a quick (less searching the web) and clean (no dmg-files that have to be stored or deleted after install) way.
2. Managing files. In iOs you pretty much can't access your files natively. When you want to use a file, you have to open a specific app for that file. There is no way (and no apparent need) to manage your files manually. I don't think that a desktop OS can completely ditch manual file-management, but I think it's an area where Apple thinks about alternative ways to do it.
It's not going to happen. Don't fool yourself. Touch is great for certain things, but for productivity the mouse is still KING. And it will remain that way. How do I know this? Because Apple's non-touch Mac computers are way more productive than any of their touch products. Why? Because that's the way they were meant to be. iPads are great for business, but not for "work". There's a big difference there. It's appears subtle, but it's major. iPads make businesses work way better than they did, but the real work happens on Macs and PCs.
I see iPad-type computers eventually replacing Apple laptops, but I don't see them replacing Apple desktops. Desktops are the work-horses. Laptops only sold so well because there was no other portable computers around. iPads will fill that niche. And as they become more powerful that will only become more obvious. Desktops however will remain where the majority of work gets done. I envision a future where every house will have a large desktop computer and every faming member will have touch computer for more personal computing. The desktop will be where the kids or the parent goes to "work". Build stuff, make stuff, design stuff, do stuff, as opposed to learning, updating or consuming.
No, for productivity the keyboard is still king. I can't imagine using a mouse or touching the screen to be really productive. If you have to reach for the mouse/trackpad etc you have already lost. The context switch is a huge penalty, just like your CPU missing the local cache and having to go to RAM to fetch data. It will waste a lot of its cycles doing that. And if the data is not in RAM either and you have to go to the disk, that's eternity from CPU point of view.
If you are proficient computer user you probably can touch type at least 80 wpm. So, keystrokes are really cheap. If you learn to drive your OS and apps using keyboard, and in OS X you can, that's one of the great features of the Mac OS X, then you can be way faster than anyone using any specialty pointing device to navigate the UI and drive the apps. You can type up to 10 chars a second, and if those happen to be commands then you can accomplish a lot, and in that same time mouse users will have their hand traveling towards the mouse, jiggling it a bit to find the pointer, moving to the menu bar, clicking on menu, moving down to select the menu option and that's just to do 1 thing of those 10 keystrokes you did in 1 second.
If you use apps that are highly optimized for touch typists like VIM editor that programmers love, then you can be orders of magnitude faster than people that merely use other editors and are also keyboard only users. Same goes for Terminal vs using GUI to accomplish a task.
No, for productivity the keyboard is still king.
[..]
If you are proficient computer user you probably can touch type at least 80 wpm.
[...]
You can type up to 10 chars a second, and if those happen to be commands then you can accomplish a lot, and in that same time mouse users will have their hand traveling towards the mouse, jiggling it a bit to find the pointer, moving to the menu bar, clicking on menu, moving down to se
You are right. But not everyone who uses a computer is that fast. And speed is not the only variable in the equation here. Point-and-click or touch-and-press for that matter is just more intuitive and accessible for people who are overwhelmed by memorizing 20-odd keyboard commands.
And a way to e-mail quickly, like you can on iOS. There's no reason in the world that Mac OS X can't bring me into composing an e-mail as fast, or even faster than iOS.
To email from an app, most apps support the CMD+SHIFT+I command. However, it is the app developers choice to implement this...
Its slow the acceleration does not act like .... well a windows mouse. Applications like Better Touch Tool give you much more control over it than Apple does. Simple fix.
I'm using MouseZoom prefpane. Just didn't know that it was a big deal for some
The biggest change is that Mac OS X 10.7 will reportedly abandon its current Aqua scroll bars in favor of the "more minimal look" of iOS scroll bars and scrolling behavior. The scroll bars may also adopt "rubber band" elastic scrolling from iOS devices and a native "pull to refresh" feature. Author Federico Viticci is unsure whether the new scrolling features will be turned on by default.
Scroll bars are the opposite logic to iOS scrolling. Using a trackpad, you have to mouse to the window, then slide your 2 fingers downwards to move the page up in MacOSX. On the iOS you have to touch the page and slide 1 finger upwards to move the page up. It'd be nice to see some changes made to this - but a difficult bridge to jump!!
I think an obvious blend of iOS and OS X is an app store for OS X apps. Buying, installing, organizing, etc. with the iOS model has many advantages over the current one.
I do think this would be a good step, but I'm not sure it's a blend of iOS really.
This would allow far greater control over how an app is installed (or removed) and where it's configuration data resides. It would give us automatic updates to our apps, as well as potentially login to any Mac and have it download/install our applications (I'm betting 10.7 will be intimately linked to the new data centre).
Stripes is a Right of Passage movie. I was just becoming a teenager when it came out and we revisited it many times at the university level.
That's the fact, Jack.
... If you have to reach for the mouse/trackpad etc you have already lost...
...If you are proficient computer user you probably can touch type at least 80 wpm. So, keystrokes are really cheap.
...If you use apps that are highly optimized for touch typists like VIM editor that programmers love, then you can be orders of magnitude faster than people that merely use other editors and are also keyboard only users. Same goes for Terminal vs using GUI to accomplish a task.
Never seen anyone use a mouse at full speed? You would be surprised.
In my experience some tasks can be accomplished faster with a keyboard than a mouse and vise versa. Experienced users use both and 'at the same time'.
But touch chances it all. Because to 'reach for your keyboard' is now the same distance (action) as to reach for your touch screen. So no time lost (if thats important) to be able to do anything, not just typing.
Think about that.
J.
But touch chances it all. Because to 'reach for your keyboard' is now the same distance (action) as to reach for your touch screen. So no time lost (if thats important) to be able to do anything, not just typing.
Think about that.
J.
Wait, wait, wait. We were talking about "touch" as in Magic Trackpad not as in desktop Touch Screen. Because the later is one of the most inefficient and unergonomic ways to work.
Unergonomic: When you work with a keyboard you pretty much only move your fingers, with a mouse or trackpad, you move your hand and your finger. With a touchscreen desktop you have to use your ENTIRE ARM. Try to hold up your arms for 3 minutes and you'll get an idea about what's working with a touchscreen is like that is more accurate than watching Minority Report...
Inefficient: If have a big screen and use a mouse or trackpad you can just crank up the sensitivity. Having a big screen and using a touch interface means that you actually have to move more.
In my opinion, a touch interface is one of the worst ideas for a desktop as long as the screen is standing up.
As far as changing quicklook I would rather them not, I love it the way it is now.
Are you serious? How can it get any faster than Right Click On Mail Icon -> Compose Message?
Mail needs to be open to do that. I'm not talking about that. I'm taking about clicking a mailto link and sending the message is slower than it is on iOS, because with iOS is only loads the compose window. I'm talking about having a contextual option within the OS to send a quick e-mail in a pop-over right there in whatever app you are in.
Quit being so defensive and get a clue.