Just to be clear and I am not taking a side here ... you think it is ok that a corporation pays less tax as a % of income than a teacher?
Pardon my intrusion, but I think it's fine to give corporations a tax break in return for them driving a part of the economy. (Apple certainly is doing that, not just in the employees they hire, but in the chain of companies that sell products or add-ons and the whole ecosystem that surrounds it.)
Taking the next step of comparing that rate to a teacher's is not comparing Apples to Apples, so to speak. It is a straw man argument.
Just to be clear and I am not taking a side here ... you think it is ok that a corporation pays less tax as a % of income than a teacher?
I think everyone should use all of the rules they can to minimize their tax burden. That's what Google is doing. In fact, technically, they have a fiduciary responsibility to their shareholders to do exactly that.
Furthermore, I think everyone should pay zero income taxes.
Finally, most school teachers are government school teachers and, thus, are not tax payers, they are tax receivers.
I think everyone should use all of the rules they can to minimize their tax burden. That's what Google is doing. In fact, technically, they have a fiduciary responsibility to their shareholders to do exactly that.
Furthermore, I think everyone should pay zero income taxes.
Finally, most school teachers are not tax payers, they are tax receivers.
Ok, again out of academic interest. In a zero tax situation you remove all things currently funded by taxes I assume. I can't quite get my head round how such a system would work. In am certainly not in favor of wasteful spending of tax $ for one second but always saw some community responsibility as what set the foundations for a civilized society. How it gets implemented is certainly a long topic of conversation I'd agree.
Ok, again out of academic interest. In a zero tax situation you remove all things currently funded by taxes I assume. I can't quite get my head round how such a system would work.
First, I didn't say zero taxes...I said zero income taxes. Income taxes are the worst form of taxes since they a) tax productivity's, success and, usually, savings which are all the things that drive wealth creation in an economy, and b) they are a massive invasion of privacy, and c) they are used to pit one economic class against another. So I would convert to consumption-based tax (i.e., a sales tax).
Second, yes this would and should still lead to a massive reduction in government spending, hopefully reducing it to its constitutional limits (which is probably about 1/10th of the size and spending it's at right now) and get out of the business of doing things it, frankly, has no business doing at all.
All that said...we've veered way off topic and are risking major derailment here.
First, I didn't say zero taxes...I said zero income taxes. Income taxes are the worst form of taxes since they a) tax productivity's, success and, usually, savings which are all the things that drive wealth creation in an economy, and b) they are a massive invasion of privacy, and c) they are used to pit one economic class against another. So I would convert to consumption-based tax (i.e., a sales tax).
Second, yes this would and should still lead to a massive reduction in government spending, hopefully reducing it to its constitutional limits (which is probably about 1/10th of the size and spending it's at right now) and get out of the business of doing things it, frankly, has no business doing at all.
All that said...we've veered way off topic and are risking major derailment here.
ok, thanks for the education and I don't disagree totally just partially
Steve Jobs did this with the NeXT computer factory. He could try again; but the rapid product roll outs will increase the engineering cost overhead for automation. As long as the low end is being set in China I expect Apple will continue to be there as well. Their price premium is large enough already.
If you go back and read the original article from the local newspaper in Maiden, NC, you will see that the re-zoning request specified "Data Center and Call Center".
I'd say Apple is about to hire a bunch of locals for a call center (possibly to take advantage of the East coast's earlier slot in the time zones). Hourly pay rates in NC might be lower than CA or TX.
My guess is that "Data Center and Call Center" is a zoning category in the area.
Also, right wing/glibatarian talking point people please keep it to the lower forum. You have plenty of space there to spin your mania.
Wow, that is mind boggling! It seems totally out of character or at least the character of the good citizen Google seems to put out there.
I am not a lover of Google, but to be fair, it must be said that MSFT does this as well and Facebook is in the process of setting themselves up to do this also. It seems to be a sign of the times, sadly. \
I am not a lover of Google, but to be fair, it must be said that MSFT does this as well and Facebook is in the process of setting themselves up to do this also. It seems to be a sign of the times, sadly. \
Why would they quadruple? Labor is a small cost component. Where do you get the 4x estimate?
You are right, the labor is a small component. And others have pointed out other aspects such as taxes (which lead to this thread going way off track on politics and taxes). But I'll throw out an example where many non-labor costs (labor directly associated with the activity) don't factor in much, and yet it's still cheaper to do it in China. Something the US is supposed to be the best in the world at: space launch.
US satellite manufactures will sometimes launch their $250 million dollar satellites on Chinese (or Russian) rockets because it's cheaper. Union wages play a small part of that expense, but a lot of those same US technicians will go to China to complete the launch. It's not done by minimum wage Chinese workers. So where do the savings come from?
There are a lot of regulatory savings. The lack of any significant legal, environmental, and safety regulations makes operating in China cheaper than in the US. Permits, insurace policies, safety measures, environmental impact studies, pollution remediation, etc, all add up. And where do you think all the waste by-product from a production factory goes in China vs the US? How is it treated and disposed of? In the US, how much has been spent studying the effects of rocket launch noise on the native seal population along the coast of California for fear we are disturbing them during mating and pupping season (and no, I am not making that up)? How many similar enviromental studies do you think have taken place in China?
Building the infrastructure such as buildings, roads, power lines, and communication benefit from reduced labor costs not directly associated with your product. The cost of the power to run your facility and food for your workers are lower as well.
And even if we considered labor costs and could somehow eliminate the union effect (I'm one who thinks unions have their place, but sometimes go too far). The cost of living for a US worker (taxes, food, mortgage, cars, our toys like iPhones, xBoxes, healthcare, etc) all have to be paid for from the worker's salary and benefits. Unions can contribute to the difference between a US and Chinese workers, but there are other things that contribute even more to the difference.
Barring some rather drastic changes in either the American or Chinese societies, I don't see Apple moving their factories to the US as a viable alternative for some time to come.
Sadly, because it represents the "me first" attitude that permeates our society today. All too often corporations will make decisions that are "bottom line" decisions only, i.e. if it makes us more $$$ it must be good, if not, it must be bad.
Sadly, because it represents the "me first" attitude that permeates our society today. All too often corporations will make decisions that are "bottom line" decisions only, i.e. if it makes us more $$$ it must be good, if not, it must be bad.
Ahhh. OK. Can we safely assume that you not only do not take any of the tax deductions available to you, but also pay additional over and above what you legally owe? How about when you go shopping for goods and services? When you buy your latest product from Apple, do you offer to pay them more than they ask for? At the grocery store do you regularly avoid sale prices and insist on paying the highest price? When your employer offers you a pay raise or bonus do you decline it?
I think everyone should use all of the rules they can to minimize their tax burden. That's what Google is doing. In fact, technically, they have a fiduciary responsibility to their shareholders to do exactly that.
Furthermore, I think everyone should pay zero income taxes.
Finally, most school teachers are government school teachers and, thus, are not tax payers, they are tax receivers.
Yes, and look at all those ginormous mansions all those tax-receiving teachers live in!
It's weird how people talk about taxes as if they're worse than death. The truth is, taxes pay for police. Taxes pay for fire fighters. Taxes pay for roads. Taxes pay for public schools (you know, all those tax-receiving teachers!). Taxes pay for public parks. In a lot of modern, industrialized nations, taxes pay for public healthcare?i.e. so if you get sick, or are injured, you won't have to worry about if you'll be taken care of, or if you can afford it!
Sure, it stings seeing a chunk of money taken out of each paycheck, but think about that next time you're driving down a smooth, well-maintained interstate highway, or enjoying a summer concert series in your local park?paid for by taxes!
Rather than anti-tax, people should be pro-fiscal responsibility.
Yes, and look at all those ginormous mansions all those tax-receiving teachers live in!
First, that wasn't the question. Second, they are fairly well paid. Third it doesn't change the fact that they are not tax payers.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Futuristic
The truth is, taxes pay for police. Taxes pay for fire fighters. Taxes pay for roads. Taxes pay for public schools (you know, all those tax-receiving teachers!). Taxes pay for public parks.
And it's even weirder when people use the 10-15% of the governmental budgets that cover the things you just mentioned as a defense for all taxes and government spending.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Futuristic
Sure, it stings seeing a chunk of money taken out of each paycheck, but think about that next time you're driving down a smooth, well-maintained interstate highway,
I 'll think about the road when I pay my gas taxes which pay for the roads.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Futuristic
or enjoying a summer concert series in your local park?paid for by taxes!
Risking? Done and done. But thanks for all your objectivist spam. God only knows that's what been lacking on this forum.
Ignore list alert! Don't bother with a response.
Sorry it was really my fault as I asked the question how could zero tax possibly work and he explained he only meant income not sales tax. My bad getting off topic slightly.. Originally coming from UK with VAT up to here (not that income tax isn't also lol) .. I am not convinced sales tax only is the answer since it is not fairly spread across incomes that way, or so it seems to my simplistic view of these things.
Comments
Just to be clear and I am not taking a side here ... you think it is ok that a corporation pays less tax as a % of income than a teacher?
Pardon my intrusion, but I think it's fine to give corporations a tax break in return for them driving a part of the economy. (Apple certainly is doing that, not just in the employees they hire, but in the chain of companies that sell products or add-ons and the whole ecosystem that surrounds it.)
Taking the next step of comparing that rate to a teacher's is not comparing Apples to Apples, so to speak. It is a straw man argument.
Thompson
Just to be clear and I am not taking a side here ... you think it is ok that a corporation pays less tax as a % of income than a teacher?
I think everyone should use all of the rules they can to minimize their tax burden. That's what Google is doing. In fact, technically, they have a fiduciary responsibility to their shareholders to do exactly that.
Furthermore, I think everyone should pay zero income taxes.
Finally, most school teachers are government school teachers and, thus, are not tax payers, they are tax receivers.
I think everyone should use all of the rules they can to minimize their tax burden. That's what Google is doing. In fact, technically, they have a fiduciary responsibility to their shareholders to do exactly that.
Furthermore, I think everyone should pay zero income taxes.
Finally, most school teachers are not tax payers, they are tax receivers.
Ok, again out of academic interest. In a zero tax situation you remove all things currently funded by taxes I assume. I can't quite get my head round how such a system would work. In am certainly not in favor of wasteful spending of tax $ for one second but always saw some community responsibility as what set the foundations for a civilized society. How it gets implemented is certainly a long topic of conversation I'd agree.
Ok, again out of academic interest. In a zero tax situation you remove all things currently funded by taxes I assume. I can't quite get my head round how such a system would work.
First, I didn't say zero taxes...I said zero income taxes. Income taxes are the worst form of taxes since they a) tax productivity's, success and, usually, savings which are all the things that drive wealth creation in an economy, and b) they are a massive invasion of privacy, and c) they are used to pit one economic class against another. So I would convert to consumption-based tax (i.e., a sales tax).
Second, yes this would and should still lead to a massive reduction in government spending, hopefully reducing it to its constitutional limits (which is probably about 1/10th of the size and spending it's at right now) and get out of the business of doing things it, frankly, has no business doing at all.
All that said...we've veered way off topic and are risking major derailment here.
First, I didn't say zero taxes...I said zero income taxes. Income taxes are the worst form of taxes since they a) tax productivity's, success and, usually, savings which are all the things that drive wealth creation in an economy, and b) they are a massive invasion of privacy, and c) they are used to pit one economic class against another. So I would convert to consumption-based tax (i.e., a sales tax).
Second, yes this would and should still lead to a massive reduction in government spending, hopefully reducing it to its constitutional limits (which is probably about 1/10th of the size and spending it's at right now) and get out of the business of doing things it, frankly, has no business doing at all.
All that said...we've veered way off topic and are risking major derailment here.
ok, thanks for the education and I don't disagree totally just partially
I am not accustom to reading fiction.
Then I'm guessing you don't read any autobiography written by ex-politicians..... or most newspapers, for that matter.
If you go back and read the original article from the local newspaper in Maiden, NC, you will see that the re-zoning request specified "Data Center and Call Center".
I'd say Apple is about to hire a bunch of locals for a call center (possibly to take advantage of the East coast's earlier slot in the time zones). Hourly pay rates in NC might be lower than CA or TX.
My guess is that "Data Center and Call Center" is a zoning category in the area.
Also, right wing/glibatarian talking point people please keep it to the lower forum. You have plenty of space there to spin your mania.
Wow, that is mind boggling! It seems totally out of character or at least the character of the good citizen Google seems to put out there.
I am not a lover of Google, but to be fair, it must be said that MSFT does this as well and Facebook is in the process of setting themselves up to do this also. It seems to be a sign of the times, sadly.
I am not a lover of Google, but to be fair, it must be said that MSFT does this as well and Facebook is in the process of setting themselves up to do this also. It seems to be a sign of the times, sadly.
Why sadly?
Why would they quadruple? Labor is a small cost component. Where do you get the 4x estimate?
You are right, the labor is a small component. And others have pointed out other aspects such as taxes (which lead to this thread going way off track on politics and taxes). But I'll throw out an example where many non-labor costs (labor directly associated with the activity) don't factor in much, and yet it's still cheaper to do it in China. Something the US is supposed to be the best in the world at: space launch.
US satellite manufactures will sometimes launch their $250 million dollar satellites on Chinese (or Russian) rockets because it's cheaper. Union wages play a small part of that expense, but a lot of those same US technicians will go to China to complete the launch. It's not done by minimum wage Chinese workers. So where do the savings come from?
There are a lot of regulatory savings. The lack of any significant legal, environmental, and safety regulations makes operating in China cheaper than in the US. Permits, insurace policies, safety measures, environmental impact studies, pollution remediation, etc, all add up. And where do you think all the waste by-product from a production factory goes in China vs the US? How is it treated and disposed of? In the US, how much has been spent studying the effects of rocket launch noise on the native seal population along the coast of California for fear we are disturbing them during mating and pupping season (and no, I am not making that up)? How many similar enviromental studies do you think have taken place in China?
Building the infrastructure such as buildings, roads, power lines, and communication benefit from reduced labor costs not directly associated with your product. The cost of the power to run your facility and food for your workers are lower as well.
And even if we considered labor costs and could somehow eliminate the union effect (I'm one who thinks unions have their place, but sometimes go too far). The cost of living for a US worker (taxes, food, mortgage, cars, our toys like iPhones, xBoxes, healthcare, etc) all have to be paid for from the worker's salary and benefits. Unions can contribute to the difference between a US and Chinese workers, but there are other things that contribute even more to the difference.
Barring some rather drastic changes in either the American or Chinese societies, I don't see Apple moving their factories to the US as a viable alternative for some time to come.
Why sadly?
Sadly, because it represents the "me first" attitude that permeates our society today. All too often corporations will make decisions that are "bottom line" decisions only, i.e. if it makes us more $$$ it must be good, if not, it must be bad.
Sadly, because it represents the "me first" attitude that permeates our society today. All too often corporations will make decisions that are "bottom line" decisions only, i.e. if it makes us more $$$ it must be good, if not, it must be bad.
Ahhh. OK. Can we safely assume that you not only do not take any of the tax deductions available to you, but also pay additional over and above what you legally owe? How about when you go shopping for goods and services? When you buy your latest product from Apple, do you offer to pay them more than they ask for? At the grocery store do you regularly avoid sale prices and insist on paying the highest price? When your employer offers you a pay raise or bonus do you decline it?
All that said...we've veered way off topic and are risking major derailment here.
Risking? Done and done. But thanks for all your objectivist spam. God only knows that's what been lacking on this forum.
Ignore list alert! Don't bother with a response.
I think everyone should use all of the rules they can to minimize their tax burden. That's what Google is doing. In fact, technically, they have a fiduciary responsibility to their shareholders to do exactly that.
Furthermore, I think everyone should pay zero income taxes.
Finally, most school teachers are government school teachers and, thus, are not tax payers, they are tax receivers.
Yes, and look at all those ginormous mansions all those tax-receiving teachers live in!
It's weird how people talk about taxes as if they're worse than death. The truth is, taxes pay for police. Taxes pay for fire fighters. Taxes pay for roads. Taxes pay for public schools (you know, all those tax-receiving teachers!). Taxes pay for public parks. In a lot of modern, industrialized nations, taxes pay for public healthcare?i.e. so if you get sick, or are injured, you won't have to worry about if you'll be taken care of, or if you can afford it!
Sure, it stings seeing a chunk of money taken out of each paycheck, but think about that next time you're driving down a smooth, well-maintained interstate highway, or enjoying a summer concert series in your local park?paid for by taxes!
Rather than anti-tax, people should be pro-fiscal responsibility.
Risking? Done and done. But thanks for all your objectivist spam.
Bzzzt. Wrong! Try again.
Ignore list alert!
Good for you.
Don't bother with a response.
Too late.
Yes, and look at all those ginormous mansions all those tax-receiving teachers live in!
First, that wasn't the question. Second, they are fairly well paid. Third it doesn't change the fact that they are not tax payers.
The truth is, taxes pay for police. Taxes pay for fire fighters. Taxes pay for roads. Taxes pay for public schools (you know, all those tax-receiving teachers!). Taxes pay for public parks.
And it's even weirder when people use the 10-15% of the governmental budgets that cover the things you just mentioned as a defense for all taxes and government spending.
Sure, it stings seeing a chunk of money taken out of each paycheck, but think about that next time you're driving down a smooth, well-maintained interstate highway,
I 'll think about the road when I pay my gas taxes which pay for the roads.
or enjoying a summer concert series in your local park?paid for by taxes!
I'll pay for my own concerts TYVM.
Risking? Done and done. But thanks for all your objectivist spam. God only knows that's what been lacking on this forum.
Ignore list alert! Don't bother with a response.
Sorry it was really my fault as I asked the question how could zero tax possibly work and he explained he only meant income not sales tax. My bad getting off topic slightly.. Originally coming from UK with VAT up to here (not that income tax isn't also lol) .. I am not convinced sales tax only is the answer since it is not fairly spread across incomes that way, or so it seems to my simplistic view of these things.
OK back to Data center
It would take a lot of apps to require such a huge data farm...
This will be for cloud storage.
not just storage ? "cloud computing" whatever that stupidly overused term will actually mean when Apple does it right.