While I would want to see justice served if in fact the guy was a victim of age discrimination, why would you think it's "entirely believable that Apple would do something like this"?
I've never seen any allegations that Apple has a corporate culture of age discrimination, and beyond some kind of general impression that the tech industry work force tends to skew young I don't know why I should suspect it.
Further, we're talking about a particular store, so even if these allegation prove true, it's likely a problem with that store manager rather than some directive from Cupertino to hold back the old guys at the store.
In fact, given their efforts at appealing to a broad demographic, I would expect having some older staff members at the Stores would be seen by Apple as an asset. A 40 year old plus iPad buyer might find it pleasant to work with someone closer to their own age as opposed to a slightly manic 22 year old who can barely disguise their impatience.
Nearly every corporation discriminates by age. It's rampant, but very difficult to prove.
I don't care what this guy says... when you reach 60, regardless of how fit you are, things slow down and you get more tired, less focused and generally burnt out after 4 days of 8 hour shifts (let alone 5 days)... especially when you compare yourself to a much younger person (unless they are really really unfit).
I can understand why they would pass on this guy for a more demanding job. Age discrimination? Yes... in a way... sure. Understandable that he was passed by? Yes... in my opinion. Fair? hard to say... I guess you'd have to study this on a case by case basis... if just one of those people that was hired instead of him was less fit, less focused and less able, then this guy will win his case.
You know, it is up to the manager no matter what... if the manager doesn't like you for whatever reason, he can promote someone else. It's totally his prerogative and not just based on performance and ability. It is always up to the manager.
Hmmm, I could use a job. I'm 72, and I can assure you that I know a computer from a calculator. I know OS 10.6 pretty well (and 5 and 4, back to OS 8.6), and can shame most Mac users when it comes to actually doing stuff. Maybe I should apply for a spot at my local Apple store.
he he. i have forgotten more about computing than most 20 year olds know lol.
You know, it is up to the manager no matter what... if the manager doesn't like you for whatever reason, he can promote someone else. It's totally his prerogative and not just based on performance and ability. It is always up to the manager.
... until someone takes the store to court and proves that the manager is a dick and is overlooking a person based solely on age.
As I said... understandable imo... but courts of law are there for people if they feel they have been treated unfairly.
Yes, it's a sales job and you know that up front, it's the managers, the atmosphere, teaching 2 years of one-to-one lessons while being paid as a specialist and being led on by managers. And no, McDonald's is not for me, and I don't eat McDonald's food (can you even call it food?). I have a college degree and have been running my own Apple Training company since quitting Apple. And my name is not McFly.
kick ass. nothing sweeter than doing your own thing.
It probably bears mentioning that age discrimination is illegal. Against the law. Actionable.
It doesn't matter if it "happens all the time", it doesn't matter if you have a dim view of "old people", it doesn't matter if you subscribe to some kind of Darwinian "get those tedious seniors out of the way" ideology. Or even if you're just young and dumb and lacking the imagination to realize that you, too, will be older someday and that you might consider supporting the mechanisms that could keep you housed and fed even while your predatory juniors are clamoring to have you euthanized.
It's illegal, and should someone be subject to same, they are entitled to protection under the law and likely compensatory damages. The question is whether or not the discrimination took place, not if "old people" have any right to gainful employment in the industry of their choosing, because that's pretty much a settled issue, your prejudices notwithstanding.
Next up: a black guy sues an Apple Store for being passed over for promotion, and we have a thread full of observations about the relative worth of black people and anecdotal tales of their general fecklessness.
Having just defended Apple in a previous post I have to say that this is completely uncalled for. If the guy has a legitimate gripe (and it's certainly not out of the question) then he should be compensated and the store in question should change its polices.
Age discrimination is a big problem in this country. You have to have been around long enough to see and understand the issues. I'm getting up there in years myself and often see both sides of the issue, sometimes it seems like the dumb and useless last the longest. On the flip side I've seen management teams come into an organization and lay people off before even saying hello just so they can put in place a young team that works for half the wages.
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Claiming that any kind of discrimination is OK because he's lucky to have a job at all is just nasty. It's a frightened peasant mentality that until recently wasn't really part of the American character.
This I agree with 100%. It is a very recent turn of events and seems hot be the result of people thinking government and corporations have the right to screw people over. I'm actually surprised at the extent to which the TSA and their creepy actions have been accepted by the public.
Hmmm, I could use a job. I'm 72, and I can assure you that I know a computer from a calculator. I know OS 10.6 pretty well (and 5 and 4, back to OS 8.6), and can shame most Mac users when it comes to actually doing stuff. Maybe I should apply for a spot at my local Apple store.
Great, our Apple store certainly could use a person with your wealth of knowledge. All I'm saying is that I know what I want and need when I walk in the store but I would sure hate to send the average non-computer savvy individual to a store where the clerk is incompetent.
Great, our Apple store certainly could use a person with your wealth of knowledge. All I'm saying is that I know what I want and need when I walk in the store but I would sure hate to send the average non-computer savvy individual to a store where the clerk is incompetent.
That's a given, but incompetence isn't somehow a result of aging, even in the tech retail industry.
You have only heard one side of the story. You have [no] idea if he really was the ?most qualified?...
Nor do you. However, the EEOC heard both sides and issued a finding favorable to Katz.
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...or if those qualifications were enough to counter a poor attitude toward other employees and customers, or if he really expressed interest in the position....
According to the story, the supervisor never noted any deficiency, but rather denied that Katz expressed an interest in promotion. The EEOC ruling suggests that the evidence was contrary to the supervisor's statements. If Katz was indeed passed over for cause, then the supervisor screwed up by not providing reasonable and supportable explanations. Ignoring a problem in hopes it will go away isn't a good management style and it can come back to bite you and your company in the ass. If performance is the issue -- document it.
Nor do you. However, the EEOC heard both sides and issued a finding favorable to Katz.
Only because what he said happened in fact did happen, with people getting promotions who were younger than him. They aren't saying anything about whether or not his accusation has any truth to it, only that his reasoning for that accusation did. No judgment either way.
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Originally Posted by Naboozle
According to the story, the supervisor never noted any deficiency, but rather denied that Katz expressed an interest in promotion. The EEOC ruling suggests that the evidence was contrary to the supervisor's statements. If Katz was indeed passed over for cause, then the supervisor screwed up by not providing reasonable and supportable explanations. Ignoring a problem in hopes it will go away isn't a good management style and it can come back to bite you and your company in the ass. If performance is the issue -- document it.
Applying for a job might qualify for "expressing an interest" where you work, but where I work, expressing an interest is going beyond performance expectations alongside applying to the position. If his performance was just average, it would explain why the supervisor didn't document performance related issues while at the same time feeling like he wasn't expressing an interest like other people who applied. Then, if he was disgruntled about it, it could show up in his work ethic, and even be the cause of his being fired!
So the point remains: No judgment can be made at this time.
That's a given, but incompetence isn't somehow a result of aging, even in the tech retail industry.
Exactly. I find it to be the opposite where I work. The guys at the top are all the oldest with the most experience. In fact, I worked alongside a guy to learn Java out in Iowa who was old enough to retire already. He was a brilliant software engineer.
I actually believe the guy. I don't believe someone goes through the trouble of contacting the EEOC for no reason at all. I don't believe the guys manager on any level. It's entirely believable that Apple would do something like this.
Add to that the fact that he's only suing for $15,000... he doesn't sound like a gold-digger.
Add to that the fact that he's only suing for $15,000... he doesn't sound like a gold-digger.
Well obviously he sounds like someone who believes what he's saying. Anyone in his position who believes this should definitely pursue legal action. It's only fair.
The thing is though, people here in the comments are judging one way or another lol
Comments
While I would want to see justice served if in fact the guy was a victim of age discrimination, why would you think it's "entirely believable that Apple would do something like this"?
I've never seen any allegations that Apple has a corporate culture of age discrimination, and beyond some kind of general impression that the tech industry work force tends to skew young I don't know why I should suspect it.
Further, we're talking about a particular store, so even if these allegation prove true, it's likely a problem with that store manager rather than some directive from Cupertino to hold back the old guys at the store.
In fact, given their efforts at appealing to a broad demographic, I would expect having some older staff members at the Stores would be seen by Apple as an asset. A 40 year old plus iPad buyer might find it pleasant to work with someone closer to their own age as opposed to a slightly manic 22 year old who can barely disguise their impatience.
Nearly every corporation discriminates by age. It's rampant, but very difficult to prove.
All I know is that if I hear one more Apple whippersnapper say "cool beans", I am going to go berserk and beat them down with my walker.
LOL. You kids get off my lawn.
I don't care what this guy says... when you reach 60, regardless of how fit you are, things slow down and you get more tired, less focused and generally burnt out after 4 days of 8 hour shifts (let alone 5 days)... especially when you compare yourself to a much younger person (unless they are really really unfit).
I can understand why they would pass on this guy for a more demanding job. Age discrimination? Yes... in a way... sure. Understandable that he was passed by? Yes... in my opinion. Fair? hard to say... I guess you'd have to study this on a case by case basis... if just one of those people that was hired instead of him was less fit, less focused and less able, then this guy will win his case.
You know, it is up to the manager no matter what... if the manager doesn't like you for whatever reason, he can promote someone else. It's totally his prerogative and not just based on performance and ability. It is always up to the manager.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q2uyk...layer_embedded
Hmmm, I could use a job. I'm 72, and I can assure you that I know a computer from a calculator. I know OS 10.6 pretty well (and 5 and 4, back to OS 8.6), and can shame most Mac users when it comes to actually doing stuff. Maybe I should apply for a spot at my local Apple store.
he he. i have forgotten more about computing than most 20 year olds know lol.
Hope everything works out in the end.
You know, it is up to the manager no matter what... if the manager doesn't like you for whatever reason, he can promote someone else. It's totally his prerogative and not just based on performance and ability. It is always up to the manager.
... until someone takes the store to court and proves that the manager is a dick and is overlooking a person based solely on age.
As I said... understandable imo... but courts of law are there for people if they feel they have been treated unfairly.
Yes, it's a sales job and you know that up front, it's the managers, the atmosphere, teaching 2 years of one-to-one lessons while being paid as a specialist and being led on by managers. And no, McDonald's is not for me, and I don't eat McDonald's food (can you even call it food?). I have a college degree and have been running my own Apple Training company since quitting Apple. And my name is not McFly.
kick ass. nothing sweeter than doing your own thing.
I don't get why this guy is upset - he's already got a job on that Progressive Insurance commercial, doesn't he?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q2uyk...layer_embedded
this woman is doing well in the Apple iLife Alert commercial
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BluFI...eature=related
It doesn't matter if it "happens all the time", it doesn't matter if you have a dim view of "old people", it doesn't matter if you subscribe to some kind of Darwinian "get those tedious seniors out of the way" ideology. Or even if you're just young and dumb and lacking the imagination to realize that you, too, will be older someday and that you might consider supporting the mechanisms that could keep you housed and fed even while your predatory juniors are clamoring to have you euthanized.
It's illegal, and should someone be subject to same, they are entitled to protection under the law and likely compensatory damages. The question is whether or not the discrimination took place, not if "old people" have any right to gainful employment in the industry of their choosing, because that's pretty much a settled issue, your prejudices notwithstanding.
Next up: a black guy sues an Apple Store for being passed over for promotion, and we have a thread full of observations about the relative worth of black people and anecdotal tales of their general fecklessness.
Having just defended Apple in a previous post I have to say that this is completely uncalled for. If the guy has a legitimate gripe (and it's certainly not out of the question) then he should be compensated and the store in question should change its polices.
Age discrimination is a big problem in this country. You have to have been around long enough to see and understand the issues. I'm getting up there in years myself and often see both sides of the issue, sometimes it seems like the dumb and useless last the longest. On the flip side I've seen management teams come into an organization and lay people off before even saying hello just so they can put in place a young team that works for half the wages.
Claiming that any kind of discrimination is OK because he's lucky to have a job at all is just nasty. It's a frightened peasant mentality that until recently wasn't really part of the American character.
This I agree with 100%. It is a very recent turn of events and seems hot be the result of people thinking government and corporations have the right to screw people over. I'm actually surprised at the extent to which the TSA and their creepy actions have been accepted by the public.
... The most self-centered, "entitled" generation in the history of the world is now entering old age. The babyboomers...
I thought that description applied to their children.
Hmmm, I could use a job. I'm 72, and I can assure you that I know a computer from a calculator. I know OS 10.6 pretty well (and 5 and 4, back to OS 8.6), and can shame most Mac users when it comes to actually doing stuff. Maybe I should apply for a spot at my local Apple store.
Great, our Apple store certainly could use a person with your wealth of knowledge. All I'm saying is that I know what I want and need when I walk in the store but I would sure hate to send the average non-computer savvy individual to a store where the clerk is incompetent.
Great, our Apple store certainly could use a person with your wealth of knowledge. All I'm saying is that I know what I want and need when I walk in the store but I would sure hate to send the average non-computer savvy individual to a store where the clerk is incompetent.
That's a given, but incompetence isn't somehow a result of aging, even in the tech retail industry.
You have only heard one side of the story. You have [no] idea if he really was the ?most qualified?...
Nor do you. However, the EEOC heard both sides and issued a finding favorable to Katz.
...or if those qualifications were enough to counter a poor attitude toward other employees and customers, or if he really expressed interest in the position....
According to the story, the supervisor never noted any deficiency, but rather denied that Katz expressed an interest in promotion. The EEOC ruling suggests that the evidence was contrary to the supervisor's statements. If Katz was indeed passed over for cause, then the supervisor screwed up by not providing reasonable and supportable explanations. Ignoring a problem in hopes it will go away isn't a good management style and it can come back to bite you and your company in the ass. If performance is the issue -- document it.
Nor do you. However, the EEOC heard both sides and issued a finding favorable to Katz.
Only because what he said happened in fact did happen, with people getting promotions who were younger than him. They aren't saying anything about whether or not his accusation has any truth to it, only that his reasoning for that accusation did. No judgment either way.
According to the story, the supervisor never noted any deficiency, but rather denied that Katz expressed an interest in promotion. The EEOC ruling suggests that the evidence was contrary to the supervisor's statements. If Katz was indeed passed over for cause, then the supervisor screwed up by not providing reasonable and supportable explanations. Ignoring a problem in hopes it will go away isn't a good management style and it can come back to bite you and your company in the ass. If performance is the issue -- document it.
Applying for a job might qualify for "expressing an interest" where you work, but where I work, expressing an interest is going beyond performance expectations alongside applying to the position. If his performance was just average, it would explain why the supervisor didn't document performance related issues while at the same time feeling like he wasn't expressing an interest like other people who applied. Then, if he was disgruntled about it, it could show up in his work ethic, and even be the cause of his being fired!
So the point remains: No judgment can be made at this time.
That's a given, but incompetence isn't somehow a result of aging, even in the tech retail industry.
Exactly. I find it to be the opposite where I work. The guys at the top are all the oldest with the most experience. In fact, I worked alongside a guy to learn Java out in Iowa who was old enough to retire already. He was a brilliant software engineer.
I actually believe the guy. I don't believe someone goes through the trouble of contacting the EEOC for no reason at all. I don't believe the guys manager on any level. It's entirely believable that Apple would do something like this.
Add to that the fact that he's only suing for $15,000... he doesn't sound like a gold-digger.
Add to that the fact that he's only suing for $15,000... he doesn't sound like a gold-digger.
Well obviously he sounds like someone who believes what he's saying. Anyone in his position who believes this should definitely pursue legal action. It's only fair.
The thing is though, people here in the comments are judging one way or another lol