Inside iCloud: Apple's new Documents & Data cloud service

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  • Reply 81 of 112
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by noirdesir View Post


    You realise that Apple is taking away nothing, zero, zilch of the existing options? It just adds options. What you don't like is that you welcome the idea of iCloud and would like to use it, but it being so seamless just makes it obvious what is (still) missing from it.



    Hmm, I was referring to the general trend I'm seeing lately within Lion, Apple apps (like Final Cut X) and the iOS -- it feels like they're trying to dumb everything down so far that their products become less useful for more advanced users. Not that I want to tweak every little aspect of my system to my own personal standards. If I wanted that I'd get a PC and deal with the headaches that come with it. But prior to recent software releases/announcements I feel Apple has done a far better job walking the line between offering more advanced options and keeping it simple. And I know I'm not the only one who's concerned. Other longtime users have also mentioned they feel Apple may be treading to far on the wrong side of that line with recent choices.



    But I am slightly confused by your comment about Apple taking nothing away from existing options. I'm guessing you mean I will still have the choice on my Mac about where I keep my files. And only IF I choose to use iCloud there may be certain requirements added regarding storage location. But if I don't like it, don't use it, right? You know, I can probably live with that for those files I want to have access to on all devices - assuming the program I create them in gets updated to work with iCloud storage. However, Apple is removing quite a few features from their current offerings within MobileMe as they roll out iCloud. Specifically in relation to iDisk, which, in relation to the Documents & Data feature of iCloud has the most parity. Since it basically sounds like we won't have the ability to throw whatever files we want to access into this 5GB of online storage my choices are immediately restricted. Unless I missed something that space will only be available to apps that use the doc&data API to access a sandboxed chuck of our iCloud space. Which means, for example, if I want to quickly upload a file (custom installer dmg's, some system file or zipped folder, etc.) that I'd like to share with a friend the way I can in iDisk now I'm outta luck. It's an awesome feature I've used numerous times with co-workers, friends, and family. They might not understand how to upload and share the file but they don't have to. They click the link I send via email or IM and their download begins. This could be considered a power user feature, though it's pretty easy to use, which Apple is removing in their quest for simplicity. Why not keep it as an additional charge feature instead of killing it off entirely? That's a single example but I think it illustrates the only point I'm really trying to make here: my faith is shaken a bit in Apple in that they used to make their development choices in view of what's best for everyone rather than just treating us all like the least technically savvy user.
  • Reply 82 of 112
    noirdesirnoirdesir Posts: 1,027member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by MADSCI3NCE View Post


    I'm guessing you mean I will still have the choice on my Mac about where I keep my files. And only IF I choose to use iCloud there may be certain requirements added regarding storage location. But if I don't like it, don't use it, right? You know, I can probably live with that for those files I want to have access to on all devices - assuming the program I create them in gets updated to work with iCloud storage. However, Apple is removing quite a few features from their current offerings within MobileMe as they roll out iCloud. Specifically in relation to iDisk, which, in relation to the Documents & Data feature of iCloud has the most parity. Since it basically sounds like we won't have the ability to throw whatever files we want to access into this 5GB of online storage my choices are immediately restricted. Unless I missed something that space will only be available to apps that use the doc&data API to access a sandboxed chuck of our iCloud space. Which means, for example, if I want to quickly upload a file (custom installer dmg's, some system file or zipped folder, etc.) that I'd like to share with a friend the way I can in iDisk now I'm outta luck. It's an awesome feature I've used numerous times with co-workers, friends, and family. They might not understand how to upload and share the file but they don't have to. They click the link I send via email or IM and their download begins. This could be considered a power user feature, though it's pretty easy to use, which Apple is removing in their quest for simplicity. Why not keep it as an additional charge feature instead of killing it off entirely?



    Any service or product that is not successful will eventually be terminated. And that applies to MobileMe here. That is not taking away stuff from advanced users, that is adjusting to the market.



    Dropbox had beaten iDisk so decisively (both in terms of market share as in features and performance) there was no point in keeping it around (unless it had some strategic value). That is the point, Apple is not discontinuing a service for which there is no replacement. There is a replacement, Dropbox, and it is better than iDisk. They are discontinuing a service that had lost its relevance, its only real value was that it was bundled with other services.
  • Reply 83 of 112
    solipsismsolipsism Posts: 25,726member
    @ PhilBoogie



    Top Gear UK is still my favorite show on either side of the pond.





    Quote:
    Originally Posted by noirdesir View Post


    Any service or product that is not successful will eventually be terminated. And that applies to MobileMe here. That is not taking away stuff from advanced users, that is adjusting to the market.



    Dropbox had beaten iDisk so decisively (both in terms of market share as in features and performance) there was no point in keeping it around (unless it had some strategic value). That is the point, Apple is not discontinuing a service for which there is no replacement. There is a replacement, Dropbox, and it is better than iDisk. They are discontinuing a service that had lost its relevance, its only real value was that it was bundled with other services.



    MobileMe gets a lot of flack for it's debut weekend where the system slowed to a crawl because they migrated everyone at once, while also releasing the iPhone 3G and iPhone 2.0 at the same time. After that fateful weekend it was running pretty smoothly but the damage was done.



    That said I think MobileMe's worst aspect has always been iDisk. It was not revamped from the .Mac days to use the delta encoding tech they had designed for Time Machine that would have made it sync faster and allow for versioning like Dropbox. It didn't seem to gain any performance either.



    I say this as a fan of MobileMe who has always felt the $65/year (no need to pay the full $99 to Apple) was well worth the money for its utility.
  • Reply 84 of 112
    yensid98yensid98 Posts: 311member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by solipsism View Post


    MobileMe gets a lot of flack for it's debut weekend where the system slowed to a crawl because they migrated everyone at once, while also releasing the iPhone 3G and iPhone 2.0 at the same time. After that fateful weekend it was running pretty smoothly but the damage was done.



    That said I think MobileMe's worst aspect has always been iDisk. It was not revamped from the .Mac days to use the delta encoding tech they had designed for Time Machine that would have made it sync faster and allow for versioning like Dropbox. It didn't seem to gain any performance either.



    I say this as a fan of MobileMe who has always felt the $65/year (no need to pay the full $99 to Apple) was well worth the money for its utility.



    Agreed. The flack over MobileMe was mostly due to the jacked roll out of the service and not it's performance over the years afterwards. My only major complaint with the service was the slow performance of iDisk. That's it. To kill this great product is a real shame. Enhancements? Great! But iCloud takes away much more than it ads. In many ways I'd prefer to pay $65 a year and keep MobileMe.
  • Reply 85 of 112
    solipsismsolipsism Posts: 25,726member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by monstrosity View Post


    Someone else fell off when I were walking Mist Trail yesterday.



    You're in Yosemite, too?



    I heard rumors another fell over but the info I received from a ranger was the discovery and removal of one of the 3 bodies from weeks prior.
  • Reply 86 of 112
    charlitunacharlituna Posts: 7,217member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Prof. Peabody View Post


    It should at least be mentioned that the main reason people were/are not happy with iDisk is not the price, but the performance. It's slow. Ridiculously slow. Unuseably slow.



    Actually it was both. Many folks didn't find it slow at all but most of the rest that did felt it was okay performance if it was a free service. Just not a paid one. The two went hand in hand.





    Quote:
    Originally Posted by bdkennedy1 View Post


    Keep in mind when using iCloud that anything stored on Apple's servers belongs to Apple





    Oh really. And where did you get that detail.



    Or are you just assuming that Apple will use the same T&C that many other services do that says that anything you host with them is there's to use or even delete as they see fit and you give up all claims including copyright.
  • Reply 87 of 112
    gustavgustav Posts: 826member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by MADSCI3NCE View Post


    Hmm, I was referring to the general trend I'm seeing lately within Lion, Apple apps (like Final Cut X) and the iOS -- it feels like they're trying to dumb everything down so far that their products become less useful for more advanced users.



    Close, but no cigar. You are confusing advanced users with those who think they are advanced. The computer is a tool to do tasks for us. So why are these "advanced users" advocating that Apple still makes us do mundane tasks such as versioning and file management? Advanced technology should disappear and let you do your work, not computer maintenance. iCloud and auto-save is doing just that - doing file maintenance tasks for us. Actual advanced users realize this and can adapt to emerging technologies where, if you don't fight them - they'll make your computing easier.



    The people are fighting this are reminiscent of those in the early 80's who fought the GUI - "apple is just dumbing things down for novices - the GUI is not a serious way to do computing; it's not for businesses." Sound familiar?



    There is also a lot of incorrect assumptions surrounding this feature. If you learn how it works then you'll learn how and where your data is stored and it won't be the security risk that a certain poster in this thread assumed it was. No more than it was in Snow Leopard anyway.
  • Reply 88 of 112
    gustavgustav Posts: 826member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by yensid98 View Post


    Agreed. The flack over MobileMe was mostly due to the jacked roll out of the service and not it's performance over the years afterwards. My only major complaint with the service was the slow performance of iDisk. That's it. To kill this great product is a real shame. Enhancements? Great! But iCloud takes away much more than it ads. In many ways I'd prefer to pay $65 a year and keep MobileMe.



    Sounds like a good opportunity for a third party.
  • Reply 89 of 112
    charlitunacharlituna Posts: 7,217member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by scottyo View Post


    Looked fine, until 3-4 days ago, when the App Store (or one of those quasi-cloudy Apple network things) challenged me to confirm my payment details (this was for free updates to free iOS software "bought" through that account). I cannot find any way to get past this challenge, no matter what variations I try in filling the form.



    It is a condition of using iTunes and the various connected services that you must have a valid form of payment on file before you can buy anything. Even if the cost is zero. They allow you for a limited time in the beginning to have no payment on your account and only get free items but once you put up a form of payment you must keep it valid and up to date. that's the rules. If you go back and read the T&C that you agreed to without reading the first time you'll see it spelled out in full for you. That you didn't bother to read it the first time isn't the Support teams fault or something they have to let you get around.





    Quote:
    Originally Posted by matt_s View Post


    So, you inadvertently make a mistake on a document



    You use Versions to go back to a good version of that document or that area of the document and you restore that good version and keep on working.
  • Reply 90 of 112
    shenshen Posts: 434member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by solipsism View Post


    1) If you remove the files from one machine it removes them from all machines. That's how it's designed to work. For each folder you have across your 'PCs' or shared folders across 'PCs' it makes them act as if they are a single file. IOW, if you share a file to a friend but the folder is shared with another friend who deletes it because he didn't want the file it will be removed from all systems sharing that folder.



    2) Dropbox has a built in system of file recovery that will allow you to retrieve deleted files for up to 30 days. If you are a pay Dropbox customer that retrieval process is extended indefinitely. You can do a permanent delete of a file but you have to show deleted files and then do a permanent delete. It's much like using Trash/Recycle Bin.



    3) I can't fault you for not knowing how to use Dropbox since I know many people in the "tech industry" that don't understand how it works even after multiple explanations. it's a new paradigm in the way it keeps your files in sync and that seems to confuse people. It's powerful and simple but it does require understanding to use correctly. This is why Apple's app-focused solution with iCloud is in many ways better.



    I understand that it is a shared drive type service and removing a file on one machine removes it for them all, but *I* didn't remove the file. I copied it to the dropbox folder, confirmed that i could see it on my phone, then the laptop said it synced dropbox and suddenly the file was gone from both.



    I did not know about the recovery though. Maybe I will give it another try.
  • Reply 91 of 112
    charlitunacharlituna Posts: 7,217member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by matt_s View Post


    Try sifting thru 2,400 versions of a contract and figure out which one word changed when. It can't be done, I'm telling you. The system is idiotic.



    You don't like it. That doesn't make it idiotic. What is perhaps idiotic is that you don't seem to have done your homework and read up on Lion and its features and the implications before you upgraded. Which is on you, not Apple



    Quote:
    Originally Posted by matt_s View Post




    The Apple Lion Discussion board is jammed full of people





    Who live to constantly bitch and moan that Apple has done something not the way they would do it and aren't doing what they think Apple should do. ANd who are in fact a very small minority of actual users.



    You don't like it, fine. Suggesting you go back to Snow Leopard and avoid all of this is a valid comment. Here's another valid comment. Don't use iWork. Go buy a copy of Microsoft Office 2011 which works on Lion but currently doesn't support AutoSave etc and simply never update it. Then you never have to deal with this issue
  • Reply 92 of 112
    shenshen Posts: 434member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by noirdesir View Post


    The stars must been really had it out for you that day. This is the first time that I heard of somebody loosing files with Dropbox. In contrast to that I have heard dozens of times of people not being able to access their iDisk (or just painstakingly slow).



    I heard dozens of people complain about idisk, and people i trust, but i never had an issue with it over something like 8 years of use, though it was slow.



    I am trying dropbox again just because everyone seems to love it. Maybe the stars where just pissed off that day...



    I am also considering idrive, but mostly i plan on waiting to see how the Apple cloud shakes out.
  • Reply 93 of 112
    lochiaslochias Posts: 83member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by matt_s View Post




    The problem dwells in the OS's new demands that when a window is closed, the document gets saved. Documents that no one wants to be saved - test cases, experiments, temporary template alterations - all get implemented, and data is over-written. The system is destroying data.



    I still don't get it. The fact that you experiment on a named file, trust yourself not to save it, and blame Versions for not losing it, seems a little odd.



    Autosave has not destroyed data. It has saved a version that you would rather not have kept. Yes, it now requires that you choose the actual document, not the scribble one that you experimented with under the same name.



    If it's really so inconvenient, why don't you give your scribble versions names? Say, "YXZ TEMP," instead of XYZ? I think that's how most of us worked before versioning was invented.
  • Reply 94 of 112
    matt_smatt_s Posts: 300member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by charlituna View Post


    You don't like it, fine. Suggesting you go back to Snow Leopard and avoid all of this is a valid comment. Here's another valid comment. Don't use iWork. Go buy a copy of Microsoft Office 2011 which works on Lion but currently doesn't support AutoSave etc and simply never update it. Then you never have to deal with this issue



    That's the first good, solid suggestion received in this forum, thank you. We are in the process of packing up ~60-some new MacBook Airs we purchased for return to Apple. We're going back to SL 10.6.6 - 10.6.8 until such time as Apple deems it suitable to return some level of user control to their new OS. Don't care much for all the nannying & bossin' around delivered by Lion.



    thanks again, have a great weekend (or what's left of it anyway! :-)
  • Reply 95 of 112
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by matt_s

    I never said it saved versions as full documents. I've watched daily over the past 2 weeks how auto-save eats my storage space. Multiple versions of very large documents (1.2GB or more) take up room, even if they're just layers. It's well optimized I think (except for the constant spinning beachball) ... but it still absolutely requires additional space that previously stayed free. I wish it could be disabled.



    In my practice, I work on 60-90 contracts a month, often implementing 30-40 changes per document, per day. That's a lot of conference calls, and a lot of words & terms changing.



    What kind of contracts take up over a gig of space?? Are they for people's souls?
  • Reply 96 of 112
    matt_smatt_s Posts: 300member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by freckledbruh View Post


    What kind of contracts take up over a gig of space?? Are they for people's souls?



    Very funny, actually. But not as dramatic as you might imagine. Sometimes, they can be 100-140 pages, double-sided, and contain hundreds of photographs (property, etc.), maps, survey data, charts, tables, embedded floatation contracts, et al.



    Markus 4711 on the Apple Discussion boards found a way to delete versions:



    He enabled the root user with Directory Utility, logged into Terminal as root and did a



    cd /

    rm -Rf .DocumentRevisions-V100



    I tried this, and it works. It's SUPER HANDY to have!



    Now, work needs to be done on getting Auto Save information cleaned up. Apps supporting auto save apparently store new documents in ~/Library/Containers/<app specific folder>/Data/Library/Autosave Information/<untitled doc name>.



    This folder can get quite HUGE, depending on how much work has been done. One of our admins had 27GB socked away here. This is not good... it wasn't so bad for her system (yet), she works on a new iMac with a TB drive. But geesh, if you had an 11" MacBook Air with a little drive, this would not be an optimal situation.



    I knew if questions got asked & research was done, there had to be a way to get around this crapola & eventually, it would get discovered. Mac Pros are damn smart people - if there's a way, they'll find it. Despite little assistance here, I thought I'd return and post this, in case others may also need some help with these "features."



    There's a number of hiccups in Lion; auto-save + versions are but two of them... they need a lot more work & thought to make them viable document assistants.



    The ability to OPT OUT would be a wonderful thing to receive from Apple but I truly doubt this will ever be forthcoming. I think Auto-Save, Versions & iCloud are part and parcel of a strategic revenue plan by Apple - Auto-Save & Versions create the demand, iCloud fulfills it.



    Kind of like selling fire insurance while you're holding a flame thrower
  • Reply 97 of 112
    firefly7475firefly7475 Posts: 1,502member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Prof. Peabody View Post


    It should at least be mentioned that the main reason people were/are not happy with iDisk is not the price, but the performance. It's slow. Ridiculously slow. Unuseably slow.



    Acknowledgement of this, and a serious discussion of whether with all it's fancy-ness, iCloud will be any faster would seem to be central.



    The iCloud beta was to some extent utilizing Microsoft Azure and Amazon S3.



    I'm not sure if Apple will take this approach in the consumer release, but it would be smart if they did.



    That way if Apple's infrastructure can't handle the load being placed on it Apple can instantly lean on these mature cloud platforms.
  • Reply 98 of 112
    Quote:

    Very funny, actually



    I'm glad you took it that way because that was my intention. If a "feature" causes problems in your workflow, then by all means disable or choose something else. Everybody has their own individual needs.
  • Reply 99 of 112
    sirozhasirozha Posts: 801member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by matt_s View Post


    Very funny, actually. But not as dramatic as you might imagine. Sometimes, they can be 100-140 pages, double-sided, and contain hundreds of photographs (property, etc.), maps, survey data, charts, tables, embedded floatation contracts, et al.



    Markus 4711 on the Apple Discussion boards found a way to delete versions:



    He enabled the root user with Directory Utility, logged into Terminal as root and did a



    cd /

    rm -Rf .DocumentRevisions-V100



    I tried this, and it works. It's SUPER HANDY to have!



    Now, work needs to be done on getting Auto Save information cleaned up. Apps supporting auto save apparently store new documents in ~/Library/Containers/<app specific folder>/Data/Library/Autosave Information/<untitled doc name>.



    This folder can get quite HUGE, depending on how much work has been done. One of our admins had 27GB socked away here. This is not good... it wasn't so bad for her system (yet), she works on a new iMac with a TB drive. But geesh, if you had an 11" MacBook Air with a little drive, this would not be an optimal situation.



    I knew if questions got asked & research was done, there had to be a way to get around this crapola & eventually, it would get discovered. Mac Pros are damn smart people - if there's a way, they'll find it. Despite little assistance here, I thought I'd return and post this, in case others may also need some help with these "features."



    There's a number of hiccups in Lion; auto-save + versions are but two of them... they need a lot more work & thought to make them viable document assistants.



    The ability to OPT OUT would be a wonderful thing to receive from Apple but I truly doubt this will ever be forthcoming. I think Auto-Save, Versions & iCloud are part and parcel of a strategic revenue plan by Apple - Auto-Save & Versions create the demand, iCloud fulfills it.



    Kind of like selling fire insurance while you're holding a flame thrower



    Paranoid. Case closed.



    I, for one, am very impressed with auto-save and versions. Many a time have I heard screams coming from my wife's office when Word would crash and take down pages of unsaved work. As soon as Apple releases the new iWork, which I'm hoping in the next month, I'm buying it and migrating from MS Office to iWork. I've already used auto-save and versions with TextEdit and with Preview (on fillable form PDFs), and I love this new way.
  • Reply 100 of 112
    matt_smatt_s Posts: 300member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by sirozha View Post


    Paranoid. Case closed.



    I, for one, am very impressed with auto-save and versions. Many a time have I heard screams coming from my wife's office when Word would crash and take down pages of unsaved work. As soon as Apple releases the new iWork, which I'm hoping in the next month, I'm buying it and migrating from MS Office to iWork. I've already used auto-save and versions with TextEdit and with Preview (on fillable form PDFs), and I love this new way.



    Good. Be happy. Nobody wants to take away your candy. Use it. Enjoy it. But don't disparage others who don't want what they consider to be the destructive editing of these new "features" in their workflow. I am not the only person who finds these functions troublesome, there are new Apple Scripts appearing all over the net to delete versions &/or trim "Auto-Slave," as so many people are calling it now.



    This in no way prohibits you from using these functions nor is it meant to limit you in any way.



    There was no reason for you to reply to my posts in the manner in which you did. It was both surprising and distasteful, and helped no one. Slamming a "feature" of an OS (inanimate object) and slamming an individual are two completely different things.



    Thomas Jefferson once wrote: "It does me no injury for my neighbor to say there are twenty gods or no God. It neither picks my pocket nor breaks my leg."



    I always say: Relax, you can now get great taste in a decaffeinated coffee :-)
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