Yeah, it is all the entitled people in the US who are complaining that the worker in other countries are being treated unfairly. Now you have the people who are being so called abuse by corporate America coming out and saying that the problem is not US companies and most of these people are better off and are just happy to be working and earning a wage verses the alternative.
These same people forget little less then a 100 yrs ago the work forces in the US was no better, company forces people to work for a wage then our government step in and said you can not have people working hard to make money, they all deserve better. Well that work for some time until everyone felt they were entitle to have what everyone else had and god forbid they actually have to work hard to get it.
My grandfather worked in the steel mills shoving coal into coke ovens (the absolute worse jobs to have in a mill) and did this for 30 yrs, however, it allows my dad and his brother to go out and get somewhat better jobs, but they all work hard and long hours so their kids including me did not have to do those kinds of jobs. I can tell you the workers in the electronic factories do work hard, and I would never like to do it myself, but they are far better off than what my Dad and his father had to do to earn a wage.
As is your posting. You offer no reason as to why the article is stupid.
This article is not stupid, because it shows us feedback from the people who make the technology that allowed you to post your unproductive response. Yes they have harsh living conditions and make barely any money, but at the same time I think Apple tries to make it better for those people over there. At least if they don't purposely try, with their devices doing so well they are offered better wages than building things for other companies as was pointed out by the one commenter.
A more accurate translation is likely "white devils." Gwai Lo in Cantonese, but I forget what it is in Manadarin. Similar term in Japanese; the Thais are the only ones I can think of that in common vernacular refer to all foreigners in the same term, farang.
...what do you think the tea bagger references to immigrants is here in the US? Is it any different?
This the way it was for the average Americans like my father in in early part of the last century. It wasn't until workers had the right to organize that the middle class was born and you now enjoy the lifestyles that you do. Unfortunately unions went to far as evidenced by the auto unions which incurred the disdain of the American public which led to outsourcing of jobs with the Reagan administration to what we see in today's world.
Tim Cook's response is a pr answer as he was/is the one who set up the supply chain for apple and continues to do so. The average Chinese worker will never be allowed to unionize under a dictatorship. I see no FDR on their Horizon. Their leaders live like ours; at the public's expense.
Please stop commenting on things you don't understand.
"In the Longhua production facility, a trade union exists"
Now, it can be argued (as this article does) that the Foxconn unions are puppets, but your statement that unions are not allowed is absolutely false. And it's not just China where there are puppet unions - there are unions in the U.S. that are simply company pawns, as well (I quit a job once because of one).
Interesting. I wonder what the "Apple is guilty of crimes against humanity" crowd will say. I await their manifesto against the windmills.
All of the offenders should be identified and discussed. Apple taking the lead in reforming labor practices would be a very good thing. If they do it right, they can turn lemons into lemonade. OTOH, denying reality and pointing fingers could be a huge fail.
Tim Cook's response is a pr answer as he was/is the one who set up the supply chain for apple and continues to do so.
Aside from all the tripe, you miss the point entirely as to why this happens. Early 20th century working conditions in many factories in the US and Europe were bad. There were some that were reasonably good, especially for the time. There were some companies that cared about their employees, and some that didn't.
Having humans do the work creates more economic good than using robots. You could have robots anywhere in the world do the work, and that is all you would get in a traditionally unionized locale.
The work is done in China because the time-to-market is shorter than if you tried to do it in the US. It comes down to how long it takes to build the building and hire the people. This makes it easier for all players to get things done.
The only modern alternative is a fully vertically-integrated manufacturing facility, which is not generally viable for anything but low-rate initial production.
Finally, quotes from real people in the country, that actually know a thing or two about the situation.
For all you know, these folks could be the Chinese equivalent of Tea Party members. The fact that they live in China means nothing without more information, unless you assume that opinion in China is monolithic. With billions of different viewpoints, I would not bet on that being the case.
I think that this dialog about the affects of our buying decisions is a good thing. I reiterate that if it handles it properly, Apple could score a big PR win here.
Lately, business corruption (ignored historically) is a hot topic and being fingered as the number one problem the world faces in the early 21st century. A lot of hard-core business sources are saying that Government involvement in the form of regulation is the only thing that's likely to stop the coming collapse.
.. I do believe Apple needs to do more on their part and I hope they do.
I don't understand why people constantly say this.
The implication of the statement is that they are "not doing enough" or that they need to be "pushed to do something more substantial" when the facts are that they are already doing more than anyone else has ever done about this issue and repeatedly issue statements about their commitment to do more.
I'm with the Chinese suppliers who commented on the original article.
The real questions here, and the one that no one is answering, are:
- Why does only Apple get hit with these allegations?
- Why doesn't Samsung, or HP, or Asus get any bad press?
- What (the fuck) are these other companies doing about this (nothing)?
The whole premise that a company that does business in another country is somehow directly responsible for the laws and society and culture of that other country is completely false and always has been. All any company can rightly do is either do business or not, and if they have any sense of morality and responsibility, push for changes using the leverage of their business. This is exactly what Apple (alone apparently) is trying to do.
I find Apple's position here to be above reproach and in fact, admirable.
Great reality check from people in China -- very intelligent responses.
I think the key point really is that the ultimate responsibility here is the Chinese government. Without government intervention/regulation, capitalism will inevitably result in a race to the moral bottom. That's what the Chinese are experiencing, and it's what the would-be oligarchs in this country want to have happen here. The Romneys, Bushs, and Kochs of the world think they should be the Lords and the rest of us their peasants. That's why they admire Chinese capitalism so much.
All of the offenders should be identified and discussed. Apple taking the lead in reforming labor practices would be a very good thing. If they do it right, they can turn lemons into lemonade. OTOH, denying reality and pointing fingers could be a huge fail.
But what it is, that is being defined as the "offenders" IS NOT the reality of the situation.
Media an meme have put this all in one single tidy "frame", and the internet drones have swallowed it whole.
I don't understand why people constantly say this.
The implication of the statement is that they are "not doing enough" or that they need to be "pushed to do something more substantial" when the facts are that they are already doing more than anyone else has ever done about this issue and repeatedly issue statements about their commitment to do more.
I'm with the Chinese suppliers who commented on the original article.
The real questions here, and the one that no one is answering, are:
- Why does only Apple get hit with these allegations?
- Why doesn't Samsung, or HP, or Asus get any bad press?
- What (the fuck) are these other companies doing about this (nothing)?
The whole premise that a company that does business in another country is somehow directly responsible for the laws and society and culture of that other country is completely false and always has been. All any company can rightly do is either do business or not, and if they have any sense of morality and responsibility, push for changes using the leverage of their business. This is exactly what Apple (alone apparently) is trying to do.
I find Apple's position here to be above reproach and in fact, admirable.
Yeah, well your "question" will never get answered because that would require things like logic, rationality, and fairness.
If you care about working conditions in China I think targeting Apple, even though I understand why they do it (they're more likely to get noticed), is detrimental to the cause. It's transparently obvious that Apple is far from the worst. In fact, there's a good argument that Apple is the best option for consumer electronics if you care about working conditions. Apple is at least doing something and reporting the results. There's oversight and scrutiny. As one of the comments said, the alternative is to buy from Taiwanese and Korean manufacturers, who all manufacture on the Chinese mainland and have far less oversight. The level of abuse involved in creating your Samsung or HTC smartphone is likely an order of magnitude above anything going on at Foxconn, which has been subject to scrutiny for years. Focusing on Apple is not only unfair, not only grossly misrepresents what's happening in China, but is extremely misleading for customers, who now think that buying a Samsung or HTC phone is a better option because they only hear about Apple's alleged misdeeds.
I'm with the Chinese suppliers who commented on the original article.
I hope you read the original Chinese comments article and not the hand-picked highlights on here. There were also a lot of negative comments from Chinese commenters, precisely none of which featured in the AppleInsider article.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Prof. Peabody
- Why does only Apple get hit with these allegations?
Apple doesn't only get hit with the allegations. The original NYT article made it very clear that many other big consumer electronics companies are guilty of permitting the same practices with suppliers.
The reason Apple gets featured more prominently in the headlines is because they are sending the most business to these suppliers. They are the bigger company, they have the most resources with bigger operating margins, and they are best best positioned to bring about change.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Prof. Peabody
- Why doesn't Samsung, or HP, or Asus get any bad press?
Dell and HP has also taken a beating over this issue recently. Asus and Samsung are not US companies and you don't see them running around preaching holier than thou marketing messages about their practices.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Prof. Peabody
- What (the fuck) are these other companies doing about this (nothing)?
So that excuses Apple then does it? They can carry on regardless as long as HP and Dell are playing the same game.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Prof. Peabody
I find Apple's position here to be above reproach and in fact, admirable.
Admirable? Really? How shocking you would think that.
I bought into the Apple ecosystem as much as the biggest fanboys. I own multiple Macs, AppleTVs, iPhones, iPods and iPads. But I'm not blinded by the uncomfortable realities of the situation, despite my love for Apple's products. Apple's stance on this is about as honest as Google's "don't be evil" BS.
Apple could easily facilitate positive change in the area of manufacturing processes with their suppliers. They could demand it when they entered into contracts. But they don't do it for a very good business reason: IT WOULD DRIVE UP COSTS. Driving up costs and reducing margins is not a price worth paying for Apple, especially given the pressures of satisfying the wolves on Wall Street. Apple can sugarcoat this issue as much as they want, but anyone with an open mind, and the ability to think for themselves, should be capable of figuring out the grim realities of what is truly going on here.
if you care about working conditions in china i think targeting apple, even though i understand why they do it (they're more likely to get noticed), is detrimental to the cause. It's transparently obvious that apple is far from the worst. In fact, there's a good argument that apple is the best option for consumer electronics if you care about working conditions. Apple is at least doing something and reporting the results. There's oversight and scrutiny. As one of the comments said, the alternative is to buy from taiwanese and korean manufacturers, who all manufacture on the chinese mainland and have far less oversight. The level of abuse involved in creating your samsung or htc smartphone is likely an order of magnitude above anything going on at foxconn, which has been subject to scrutiny for years. Focusing on apple is not only unfair, not only grossly misrepresents what's happening in china, but is extremely misleading for customers, who now think that buying a samsung or htc phone is a better option because they only hear about apple's alleged misdeeds.
Comments
These same people forget little less then a 100 yrs ago the work forces in the US was no better, company forces people to work for a wage then our government step in and said you can not have people working hard to make money, they all deserve better. Well that work for some time until everyone felt they were entitle to have what everyone else had and god forbid they actually have to work hard to get it.
My grandfather worked in the steel mills shoving coal into coke ovens (the absolute worse jobs to have in a mill) and did this for 30 yrs, however, it allows my dad and his brother to go out and get somewhat better jobs, but they all work hard and long hours so their kids including me did not have to do those kinds of jobs. I can tell you the workers in the electronic factories do work hard, and I would never like to do it myself, but they are far better off than what my Dad and his father had to do to earn a wage.
This Article is stupid.
As is your posting. You offer no reason as to why the article is stupid.
This article is not stupid, because it shows us feedback from the people who make the technology that allowed you to post your unproductive response. Yes they have harsh living conditions and make barely any money, but at the same time I think Apple tries to make it better for those people over there. At least if they don't purposely try, with their devices doing so well they are offered better wages than building things for other companies as was pointed out by the one commenter.
Foreign devils, lol.
A more accurate translation is likely "white devils." Gwai Lo in Cantonese, but I forget what it is in Manadarin. Similar term in Japanese; the Thais are the only ones I can think of that in common vernacular refer to all foreigners in the same term, farang.
...what do you think the tea bagger references to immigrants is here in the US? Is it any different?
This the way it was for the average Americans like my father in in early part of the last century. It wasn't until workers had the right to organize that the middle class was born and you now enjoy the lifestyles that you do. Unfortunately unions went to far as evidenced by the auto unions which incurred the disdain of the American public which led to outsourcing of jobs with the Reagan administration to what we see in today's world.
Tim Cook's response is a pr answer as he was/is the one who set up the supply chain for apple and continues to do so. The average Chinese worker will never be allowed to unionize under a dictatorship. I see no FDR on their Horizon. Their leaders live like ours; at the public's expense.
Please stop commenting on things you don't understand.
China DOES allow labor unions:
http://english.peopledaily.com.cn/90...0/7188222.html
There's even a federation of trade unions: All-China Federation of Trade Unions (ACFTU).
More importantly, at least some Foxconn plants have unions:
http://somo.nl/news-en/somo-media-co...tronics-firm-1
"The Hangzhou factory has a trade union"
"In the Longhua production facility, a trade union exists"
Now, it can be argued (as this article does) that the Foxconn unions are puppets, but your statement that unions are not allowed is absolutely false. And it's not just China where there are puppet unions - there are unions in the U.S. that are simply company pawns, as well (I quit a job once because of one).
Interesting. I wonder what the "Apple is guilty of crimes against humanity" crowd will say. I await their manifesto against the windmills.
All of the offenders should be identified and discussed. Apple taking the lead in reforming labor practices would be a very good thing. If they do it right, they can turn lemons into lemonade. OTOH, denying reality and pointing fingers could be a huge fail.
Tim Cook's response is a pr answer as he was/is the one who set up the supply chain for apple and continues to do so.
Aside from all the tripe, you miss the point entirely as to why this happens. Early 20th century working conditions in many factories in the US and Europe were bad. There were some that were reasonably good, especially for the time. There were some companies that cared about their employees, and some that didn't.
Having humans do the work creates more economic good than using robots. You could have robots anywhere in the world do the work, and that is all you would get in a traditionally unionized locale.
The work is done in China because the time-to-market is shorter than if you tried to do it in the US. It comes down to how long it takes to build the building and hire the people. This makes it easier for all players to get things done.
The only modern alternative is a fully vertically-integrated manufacturing facility, which is not generally viable for anything but low-rate initial production.
Finally, quotes from real people in the country, that actually know a thing or two about the situation.
For all you know, these folks could be the Chinese equivalent of Tea Party members. The fact that they live in China means nothing without more information, unless you assume that opinion in China is monolithic. With billions of different viewpoints, I would not bet on that being the case.
I think that this dialog about the affects of our buying decisions is a good thing. I reiterate that if it handles it properly, Apple could score a big PR win here.
The foreign devil thing is a bit harsh
It's a way of speech as far as I know, comparable to 'alien' in English. China was once an isolated place ...
J.
The foreign devil thing is a bit harsh
It's a very common term for many years and shouldn't necessarily be taken as an insult.
Couldn't be further from the truth.
Sez you
Lately, business corruption (ignored historically) is a hot topic and being fingered as the number one problem the world faces in the early 21st century. A lot of hard-core business sources are saying that Government involvement in the form of regulation is the only thing that's likely to stop the coming collapse.
Please stop commenting on things you don't understand.
China DOES allow labor unions:
http://english.peopledaily.com.cn/90...0/7188222.html
There's even a federation of trade unions: All-China Federation of Trade Unions (ACFTU).
China, being a country of pinko commies, would be expected to allow the proletariat to organize.
To think otherwise is curious.
.. I do believe Apple needs to do more on their part and I hope they do.
I don't understand why people constantly say this.
The implication of the statement is that they are "not doing enough" or that they need to be "pushed to do something more substantial" when the facts are that they are already doing more than anyone else has ever done about this issue and repeatedly issue statements about their commitment to do more.
I'm with the Chinese suppliers who commented on the original article.
The real questions here, and the one that no one is answering, are:
- Why does only Apple get hit with these allegations?
- Why doesn't Samsung, or HP, or Asus get any bad press?
- What (the fuck) are these other companies doing about this (nothing)?
The whole premise that a company that does business in another country is somehow directly responsible for the laws and society and culture of that other country is completely false and always has been. All any company can rightly do is either do business or not, and if they have any sense of morality and responsibility, push for changes using the leverage of their business. This is exactly what Apple (alone apparently) is trying to do.
I find Apple's position here to be above reproach and in fact, admirable.
I think the key point really is that the ultimate responsibility here is the Chinese government. Without government intervention/regulation, capitalism will inevitably result in a race to the moral bottom. That's what the Chinese are experiencing, and it's what the would-be oligarchs in this country want to have happen here. The Romneys, Bushs, and Kochs of the world think they should be the Lords and the rest of us their peasants. That's why they admire Chinese capitalism so much.
All of the offenders should be identified and discussed. Apple taking the lead in reforming labor practices would be a very good thing. If they do it right, they can turn lemons into lemonade. OTOH, denying reality and pointing fingers could be a huge fail.
But what it is, that is being defined as the "offenders" IS NOT the reality of the situation.
Media an meme have put this all in one single tidy "frame", and the internet drones have swallowed it whole.
I don't understand why people constantly say this.
The implication of the statement is that they are "not doing enough" or that they need to be "pushed to do something more substantial" when the facts are that they are already doing more than anyone else has ever done about this issue and repeatedly issue statements about their commitment to do more.
I'm with the Chinese suppliers who commented on the original article.
The real questions here, and the one that no one is answering, are:
- Why does only Apple get hit with these allegations?
- Why doesn't Samsung, or HP, or Asus get any bad press?
- What (the fuck) are these other companies doing about this (nothing)?
The whole premise that a company that does business in another country is somehow directly responsible for the laws and society and culture of that other country is completely false and always has been. All any company can rightly do is either do business or not, and if they have any sense of morality and responsibility, push for changes using the leverage of their business. This is exactly what Apple (alone apparently) is trying to do.
I find Apple's position here to be above reproach and in fact, admirable.
Yeah, well your "question" will never get answered because that would require things like logic, rationality, and fairness.
I'm with the Chinese suppliers who commented on the original article.
I hope you read the original Chinese comments article and not the hand-picked highlights on here. There were also a lot of negative comments from Chinese commenters, precisely none of which featured in the AppleInsider article.
- Why does only Apple get hit with these allegations?
Apple doesn't only get hit with the allegations. The original NYT article made it very clear that many other big consumer electronics companies are guilty of permitting the same practices with suppliers.
The reason Apple gets featured more prominently in the headlines is because they are sending the most business to these suppliers. They are the bigger company, they have the most resources with bigger operating margins, and they are best best positioned to bring about change.
- Why doesn't Samsung, or HP, or Asus get any bad press?
Dell and HP has also taken a beating over this issue recently. Asus and Samsung are not US companies and you don't see them running around preaching holier than thou marketing messages about their practices.
- What (the fuck) are these other companies doing about this (nothing)?
So that excuses Apple then does it? They can carry on regardless as long as HP and Dell are playing the same game.
I find Apple's position here to be above reproach and in fact, admirable.
Admirable? Really? How shocking you would think that.
I bought into the Apple ecosystem as much as the biggest fanboys. I own multiple Macs, AppleTVs, iPhones, iPods and iPads. But I'm not blinded by the uncomfortable realities of the situation, despite my love for Apple's products. Apple's stance on this is about as honest as Google's "don't be evil" BS.
Apple could easily facilitate positive change in the area of manufacturing processes with their suppliers. They could demand it when they entered into contracts. But they don't do it for a very good business reason: IT WOULD DRIVE UP COSTS. Driving up costs and reducing margins is not a price worth paying for Apple, especially given the pressures of satisfying the wolves on Wall Street. Apple can sugarcoat this issue as much as they want, but anyone with an open mind, and the ability to think for themselves, should be capable of figuring out the grim realities of what is truly going on here.
if you care about working conditions in china i think targeting apple, even though i understand why they do it (they're more likely to get noticed), is detrimental to the cause. It's transparently obvious that apple is far from the worst. In fact, there's a good argument that apple is the best option for consumer electronics if you care about working conditions. Apple is at least doing something and reporting the results. There's oversight and scrutiny. As one of the comments said, the alternative is to buy from taiwanese and korean manufacturers, who all manufacture on the chinese mainland and have far less oversight. The level of abuse involved in creating your samsung or htc smartphone is likely an order of magnitude above anything going on at foxconn, which has been subject to scrutiny for years. Focusing on apple is not only unfair, not only grossly misrepresents what's happening in china, but is extremely misleading for customers, who now think that buying a samsung or htc phone is a better option because they only hear about apple's alleged misdeeds.
+1000