Because slavery is VERY profitable. Wake up and follow the money. Just because you don't want there to be slavery doesn't mean there isn't any slavery. Reality doesn't care what you believe; it will continue being what it is until you wake up and be part of the effort to embetter the world.
Do you have direct experience working with Chinese factories?
No. I also didn't listen to a "radio show;" I saw it in person. Please tell me which parts were made up, I'd love to know.
Ask the carnival barker doing his tasteless Steve jobs bashing show if he also went to the sewage infested rat holes most of these workers came from before being hired by Foxxcon.
Yeah, let's take the word of a poorly written and VERY boring essay on a lone archaeologist who found what he *thinks* were the workers' living quarters and interpolating finding large amounts of food into believing they weren't slaves but prized workers... despite not finding the right amount of sleeping arrangements, etc. Oh, and he just found it too. Who's to say there's not another site down the road so to speak, buried in history, where the slaves lived? Who's to say what he found wasn't the city for the foremen and leaders?
Why are people so quick to discount what was recorded by eyewitnesses in historical documents simply because they don't wish to subscribe to believing in the holy book that contains them? Obviously we don't know if said slave labor built the pyramids, but ancient Egypt did employ slaves and they weren't always treated the best.
It's a brilliant 2-hour show that retells first-hand accounts of what happens in the factories where the iPhone is produced, in even more vivid detail than the damning NY Times article.
Unions were generally formed as a result of a mass strike. Maybe that's what the Chinese workers need to do is form a mass strike, not just Foxconn but all workers who are working in the same or worse conditions. "Force" the government to enact some legislation to ensure better working conditions.
Unions organize (mass) strikes. Strikes do not cause the formation of unions.
The sad fact is that Apple will continue to take the heat for China's actions for one simple reason. Mentioning Apple guarantees attention.
Ignore the fact that they're doing far more than any other manufacturer to monitor the workers' conditions, they will continue to be the whipping boy because it guarantees hits.
Would a CEO openly admit that his company engages in practices that is damaging to the PR of the company? Absolutely not.
Probably not, but neither does the lack of an admission imply, let alone prove, that they are engaging in those practices. Whatever practices those might be.
It appears that Apple is trying to do something about worker conditions there - which is more than any of the other companies appear to be doing. We can argue about whether they should do more, but it seems strange to single out the one company that is demonstrably making some effort.
As much as we would all like this to be a black and white issue, it just isn't. Do working conditions in Chinese factories suck? Yeah, probably. Do those factories churn out millions of Apple products a year? Yes. Do they church out millions of Samsung, Sony, LG, Nokia, HTC, etc. devices a year? Of course. If Foxconn is building devices for several different companies, which company bears the responsibility for forcing them to improve working conditions? And how would Apple go about forcing them to do so (even if we tell them to bear that responsibility)? It's ultimately up to Foxconn what they decide to pay their employees, and it's ultimately up to the Chinese government to determine acceptable working conditions and minimum wages (and of course, deductions) for their citizens. Yelling at Apple to fix an inherently Chinese problem is silly.
Could Apple find another supplier? Sure, but if it's not located in China, they'll likely pay more per unit built, and if it is in China you'll have exactly the same problems rise up in the future. Some people said they're willing to pay more for Apple to move it's manufacturing elsewhere, but it's not just about the per unit cost. It's about the number of units Apple can get in a certain amount of time. If Apple moves to a South American or Eastern European manufacturer, they'll likely be receiving less total units, and given how Apple already has problems keeping up with demand, that doesn't seem like a valid solution. Apple could never bring it's manufacturing lines back to the US, either. Sure, I'd loved to see "Designed and Built by Apple in California" stamped on my next iPhone, but I'm a realist. Imagine the cost of a truly "American made" iPhone.
Apple does have a great opportunity here though. Apple could use part of it's war chest to start it's own Chinese (or wherever) factory. They own the building and the manufacturing equipment and oversee the operations, working conditions, etc. They could then draw up contracts with a Chinese company to supply the labor and a manufacturing quota. This way Apple gets a say over worker conditions in it's OWN factory, while leaving it up to an outside company to do the necessary hiring. Of course, the Chinese government might not even allow this, but it would certainly give Apple a bit more control (which they love) and a bit more good press (which they also love).
This is easy, and let's leave off the OT issues around trade unions and the one-man show. Those are not important.
What other companies are as proactive as Apple, as high profile as Apple that are pursuing as agressively as Apple the improvement of worker conditions in their supply chains?
The best possible outcome that I can think of would be for the entire industry to clean up its act, with Apple being a leader in taking the moral high ground.
Apple can (and likely will) turn this mess into a huge win. I hope that in the future, employing humane labor practices becomes as big deal for mega-corporations as being Green currently is.
Yes because when any publication reports a story that doesn't fit your way of thinking or is "inconvenient", it's best to put your head in the sand rather than dealing with the fact that the company we love so much isn't always 100% ethical.
If just 25% of what the Times reported reflects reality, I think that's a big problem for Apple. While I realize that those employees are not strictly Apple's employees, I believe that since Apple consumes so much of the labor force in that factory, Apple has to take a bigger role in insuring decent treatment for those workers. And the way to do that is that Apple should have a senior level manager who is an Apple employee who spends virtually full-time at Foxconn to monitor working conditions. And I don't know whether the Chinese government would allow this, but Apple should obtain partial ownership in Foxconn to give them a stronger hand.
Apple should insure that at the very least:
- Employees are paid for all the hours they work
- That they are paid what they are promised
- That no employee works more than 6 days/ 60 hours
- That the factories are safe (no more aluminum powder incidents).
One of the things the article pointed out is that Apple forces their suppliers to work on such short margins (much like Walmart) that the factories have almost no choice but to shortchange working conditions. Maybe Apple can make a few percentage points less in margin.
The article also raised the issue of suppliers who supply Foxconn. My feeling is that Apple's responsibility should extend only to the factories and vendors who they contract with directly.
Personally, I would gladly pay 25% more for Apple products if I knew that the workers in their factories were treated decently and/or some of those jobs were brought back to the West. My personal opinion (for all manufacturers) is that ideally, products should be made close to the markets that they serve. That way, communities who buy the products can also benefit from the jobs created. I really don't feel very good knowing that the products I love from a company I love are made by people working under poor conditions and earning just a few dollars a day.
Yes because when any publication reports a story that doesn't fit your way of thinking or is "inconvenient", it's best to put your head in the sand rather than dealing with the fact that the company we love so much isn't always 100% ethical.
No, it is because of lazy reporting. They are giving a mouthpiece to someone without checking the facts. They didn't even ask for a comment from Apple before publishing.
As an avowed fanboy and Apple stock holder, I think it's in my interest to propose a few solutions. Yeah, I know the problem is bigger than this, but how about we start here?
Apple needs to:
1) Increase margins to suppliers by 2% across the board, not to be spent on labor. The manufacturers feel squeezed and this is a good faith gesture.
2) Demand very specific improvements in facilities that directly impact the workers (positively, of course). You know, chairs with backs, better lighting, ergonomic work surfaces, better ventilation, etc. Fund 75% of the improvements, the rest coming from the manufacturers.
3) Double the living space per person in the Apple-associated dormitories (decrease the density by half) and pay for those improvements.
4) Increase the pay for "our" workers by 20%, but do not under any circumstances allow overtime. Ever. (That?s an effective raise while still staying within custom and law in China.)
5) Demand that line workers be rotated every few hours to different jobs to eliminate or at least reduce repetitive motion injuries.
6) Hire American employees to inspect and audit all supplier facilities on a non-scheduled surprise basis. No advance notice. Rotate the inspectors into and out of China randomly to obviate the possibility of payoffs or collusion. (Yes, that requires training on this end.)
7) Reward managers and manufacturers that pass all audits and inspections. Give them incentives to stay "clean".
8) Increase prices on major Apple products by 25 dollars. (It will defray a bit of the cost of these improvements and symbolize the fact that we Apple users are willing to pay a bit more. These improvements won?t necessitate anywhere near a 25% price hike if you look at present labor costs and Apple?s margins.))
9) Last, Apple needs to hold its corporate head high and say, "We're trying. Anybody else on board?"
I know, I know -- a hundred people will jump on me for being naive, but nothing will change until we consumers and fans (and Apple) demand change. We can't change the realities of the market place or the supply chain, no less the fact that America can't hope to ever bring these jobs back. But abuses can be mitigated if we demand it. There are solutions to be had if we "think different." Apple has the money now to make a difference in how business is conducted.
Any other ideas?
And, by the way, everybody -- leave the NYTimes out of it. They are the only ones left that are doing their job anymore, whether it's palatable or not. I say good for them.
I lived at a factory for six months. I visited the workers' dorms. I was friends with workers. I watched their work on a daily basis. I saw how they were treated.
Factory workers in China are generally much happier than the general population in China. They are treated well, but they are expected to do the job they are hired for. They are fed, clothed and housed, and most of them send their earnings home to family. It's a pretty good situation for them.
The workers at factories like Foxconn factories are paid more than most factory workers, and their jobs are correspondingly harder. Their living conditions are better, but their stress levels are higher.
Comments
Because slavery is VERY profitable. Wake up and follow the money. Just because you don't want there to be slavery doesn't mean there isn't any slavery. Reality doesn't care what you believe; it will continue being what it is until you wake up and be part of the effort to embetter the world.
Do you have direct experience working with Chinese factories?
No. I also didn't listen to a "radio show;" I saw it in person. Please tell me which parts were made up, I'd love to know.
Ask the carnival barker doing his tasteless Steve jobs bashing show if he also went to the sewage infested rat holes most of these workers came from before being hired by Foxxcon.
They're under the gun; forever and always.
No they didn't.
Yeah, let's take the word of a poorly written and VERY boring essay on a lone archaeologist who found what he *thinks* were the workers' living quarters and interpolating finding large amounts of food into believing they weren't slaves but prized workers... despite not finding the right amount of sleeping arrangements, etc. Oh, and he just found it too. Who's to say there's not another site down the road so to speak, buried in history, where the slaves lived? Who's to say what he found wasn't the city for the foremen and leaders?
Why are people so quick to discount what was recorded by eyewitnesses in historical documents simply because they don't wish to subscribe to believing in the holy book that contains them? Obviously we don't know if said slave labor built the pyramids, but ancient Egypt did employ slaves and they weren't always treated the best.
More than you, I suspect.
Have you seen The Agony and Ecstasy of Steve Jobs? I have.
http://www.slate.com/articles/arts/c...viewed_.3.html
It's a brilliant 2-hour show that retells first-hand accounts of what happens in the factories where the iPhone is produced, in even more vivid detail than the damning NY Times article.
Stop the presses, this man watched a documentary.
A DOC.U.MENT.AR.Y.
Case closed.
Unions were generally formed as a result of a mass strike. Maybe that's what the Chinese workers need to do is form a mass strike, not just Foxconn but all workers who are working in the same or worse conditions. "Force" the government to enact some legislation to ensure better working conditions.
Unions organize (mass) strikes. Strikes do not cause the formation of unions.
Ignore the fact that they're doing far more than any other manufacturer to monitor the workers' conditions, they will continue to be the whipping boy because it guarantees hits.
Pretty simple.
Would a CEO openly admit that his company engages in practices that is damaging to the PR of the company? Absolutely not.
Probably not, but neither does the lack of an admission imply, let alone prove, that they are engaging in those practices. Whatever practices those might be.
It appears that Apple is trying to do something about worker conditions there - which is more than any of the other companies appear to be doing. We can argue about whether they should do more, but it seems strange to single out the one company that is demonstrably making some effort.
This statement is about 80% fantasy. You are using hyperbole to make a point and doing great damage to the facts in the process.
much more than 80%
Could Apple find another supplier? Sure, but if it's not located in China, they'll likely pay more per unit built, and if it is in China you'll have exactly the same problems rise up in the future. Some people said they're willing to pay more for Apple to move it's manufacturing elsewhere, but it's not just about the per unit cost. It's about the number of units Apple can get in a certain amount of time. If Apple moves to a South American or Eastern European manufacturer, they'll likely be receiving less total units, and given how Apple already has problems keeping up with demand, that doesn't seem like a valid solution. Apple could never bring it's manufacturing lines back to the US, either. Sure, I'd loved to see "Designed and Built by Apple in California" stamped on my next iPhone, but I'm a realist. Imagine the cost of a truly "American made" iPhone.
Apple does have a great opportunity here though. Apple could use part of it's war chest to start it's own Chinese (or wherever) factory. They own the building and the manufacturing equipment and oversee the operations, working conditions, etc. They could then draw up contracts with a Chinese company to supply the labor and a manufacturing quota. This way Apple gets a say over worker conditions in it's OWN factory, while leaving it up to an outside company to do the necessary hiring. Of course, the Chinese government might not even allow this, but it would certainly give Apple a bit more control (which they love) and a bit more good press (which they also love).
(Raises hand)
Does anyone have any questions?
What else would he say?
What else would you post?
Quick show of hands. How many of us have lived and worked in a Chinese factory for more than a few days?
(Raises hand)
Does anyone have any questions?
Yes. What's your opinion on this?
This is easy, and let's leave off the OT issues around trade unions and the one-man show. Those are not important.
What other companies are as proactive as Apple, as high profile as Apple that are pursuing as agressively as Apple the improvement of worker conditions in their supply chains?
Samsung? Sony? Nokia? Microsoft? Dell? HP? Lenovo? Asus? Acer? LG? HTC? Motorola?
The best possible outcome that I can think of would be for the entire industry to clean up its act, with Apple being a leader in taking the moral high ground.
Apple can (and likely will) turn this mess into a huge win. I hope that in the future, employing humane labor practices becomes as big deal for mega-corporations as being Green currently is.
I am happy I cancelled my subscription of NYT.
Yes because when any publication reports a story that doesn't fit your way of thinking or is "inconvenient", it's best to put your head in the sand rather than dealing with the fact that the company we love so much isn't always 100% ethical.
If just 25% of what the Times reported reflects reality, I think that's a big problem for Apple. While I realize that those employees are not strictly Apple's employees, I believe that since Apple consumes so much of the labor force in that factory, Apple has to take a bigger role in insuring decent treatment for those workers. And the way to do that is that Apple should have a senior level manager who is an Apple employee who spends virtually full-time at Foxconn to monitor working conditions. And I don't know whether the Chinese government would allow this, but Apple should obtain partial ownership in Foxconn to give them a stronger hand.
Apple should insure that at the very least:
- Employees are paid for all the hours they work
- That they are paid what they are promised
- That no employee works more than 6 days/ 60 hours
- That the factories are safe (no more aluminum powder incidents).
One of the things the article pointed out is that Apple forces their suppliers to work on such short margins (much like Walmart) that the factories have almost no choice but to shortchange working conditions. Maybe Apple can make a few percentage points less in margin.
The article also raised the issue of suppliers who supply Foxconn. My feeling is that Apple's responsibility should extend only to the factories and vendors who they contract with directly.
Personally, I would gladly pay 25% more for Apple products if I knew that the workers in their factories were treated decently and/or some of those jobs were brought back to the West. My personal opinion (for all manufacturers) is that ideally, products should be made close to the markets that they serve. That way, communities who buy the products can also benefit from the jobs created. I really don't feel very good knowing that the products I love from a company I love are made by people working under poor conditions and earning just a few dollars a day.
Yes because when any publication reports a story that doesn't fit your way of thinking or is "inconvenient", it's best to put your head in the sand rather than dealing with the fact that the company we love so much isn't always 100% ethical.
No, it is because of lazy reporting. They are giving a mouthpiece to someone without checking the facts. They didn't even ask for a comment from Apple before publishing.
Apple needs to:
1) Increase margins to suppliers by 2% across the board, not to be spent on labor. The manufacturers feel squeezed and this is a good faith gesture.
2) Demand very specific improvements in facilities that directly impact the workers (positively, of course). You know, chairs with backs, better lighting, ergonomic work surfaces, better ventilation, etc. Fund 75% of the improvements, the rest coming from the manufacturers.
3) Double the living space per person in the Apple-associated dormitories (decrease the density by half) and pay for those improvements.
4) Increase the pay for "our" workers by 20%, but do not under any circumstances allow overtime. Ever. (That?s an effective raise while still staying within custom and law in China.)
5) Demand that line workers be rotated every few hours to different jobs to eliminate or at least reduce repetitive motion injuries.
6) Hire American employees to inspect and audit all supplier facilities on a non-scheduled surprise basis. No advance notice. Rotate the inspectors into and out of China randomly to obviate the possibility of payoffs or collusion. (Yes, that requires training on this end.)
7) Reward managers and manufacturers that pass all audits and inspections. Give them incentives to stay "clean".
8) Increase prices on major Apple products by 25 dollars. (It will defray a bit of the cost of these improvements and symbolize the fact that we Apple users are willing to pay a bit more. These improvements won?t necessitate anywhere near a 25% price hike if you look at present labor costs and Apple?s margins.))
9) Last, Apple needs to hold its corporate head high and say, "We're trying. Anybody else on board?"
I know, I know -- a hundred people will jump on me for being naive, but nothing will change until we consumers and fans (and Apple) demand change. We can't change the realities of the market place or the supply chain, no less the fact that America can't hope to ever bring these jobs back. But abuses can be mitigated if we demand it. There are solutions to be had if we "think different." Apple has the money now to make a difference in how business is conducted.
Any other ideas?
And, by the way, everybody -- leave the NYTimes out of it. They are the only ones left that are doing their job anymore, whether it's palatable or not. I say good for them.
Yes. What's your opinion on this?
I lived at a factory for six months. I visited the workers' dorms. I was friends with workers. I watched their work on a daily basis. I saw how they were treated.
Factory workers in China are generally much happier than the general population in China. They are treated well, but they are expected to do the job they are hired for. They are fed, clothed and housed, and most of them send their earnings home to family. It's a pretty good situation for them.
The workers at factories like Foxconn factories are paid more than most factory workers, and their jobs are correspondingly harder. Their living conditions are better, but their stress levels are higher.