These people couldn't care less about the employees at Foxconn or anywhere else. They think they do but they don't...not really. They just do these things so they can feel like they matter in life and so that their friends will think they're "cool people" and who cares if living conditions are really improved anywhere in the end. Spending your days as an "activist" is easier, more adventurous, and more fun than getting serious about a career and working through the day-to-day drudgery of a job to provide for themselves and their families. Next they will be protesting whatever else The New York Times has criticized and the conditions at Foxconn will be forgotten.
If they really want to try to improve the lives of people in China they should fly a group of themselves over there and make their demands directly to the communist Chinese government in some high profile way that is embarrasing for the Chinese political and military leadership. Surely the Chinese government has a far more profound impact on the lives of Chinese citizens than any foreign company does. They could stage a "die in" in Tiananmen Square in protest of the conditions that Chinese citizens face. That would impress me a little more. They won't do that however because it involves real effort and danger and actually seeing improvements in the lives of Chinese folks is not what this is about anyways. It's just about seeing yourself as an "activist" and feeling like you matter and avoiding having to get a job.
She's wearing a cardigan just like one my wife has. Made in China!
Also, I wonder where Greenpeace is to tell her not to waste so much paper.
What I find irritating about activists these days is that it's so easy now to hear bad reports from journalists, put up an eCampaign and get a bunch of signups to print out and feel like they are personally making a difference when in fact they're not really doing anything to solve the problem.
"As actors, it is our responsibility to read the newspapers and then say what we read on television like it's our own opinion"
Armchair activists are more of a nuisance than anything - uninformed, unwashed, media whores wasting paper. People who actually go to China and report what they see directly have far more impact, like the person in the link posted earlier:
A very interesting viewpoint from an Apple fan who visited the factory to see the conditions:
"How often do we wish more things were hand-made? [We say] I wish it was like the old days, I wish things had that human touch. There are more hand-made things than there have ever been in the history of the world."
Still, these are all accounts of problems that Apple and others are aware of as he points out but the solutions aren't forthcoming. Yes we expect someone to do something but why Apple and what do they do? Are they the main target because they earn the most, are they the target because they will care the most?
Apple isn't going to stop using the factories in China so the best we can hope for is that they contribute to better working conditions (beyond what they already do), even if it means taxing us for it. Apple has sold 250 million units over the past 5 years. If Apple had put a $5 tax on every unit and distributed that to 100,000 workers directly who assembled iOS devices, each worker would make $2,500 extra per year = 15,700 Renmibi. The yearly salary is around 24,000 Renmibi.
This is surely enough to either allow them to cut their working hours to reasonable levels or afford what they want like save up for an iPad within the yearly product cycle. Apple can put the tax rate right on the purchase page:
iPad: $499
Delivery: free
Asian worker sponsorship (assurance that every worker worked under 60 hours, was not underage and earned a reasonable wage): $5
Feeling like you made a difference: priceless
What would you do
If you were asked to give up your iPad for freedom?
... and who guarantees that the five bucks will go to the workers.
... and why do some people think there is a simplistic answer to these problems. There is a balance in China that seems to be maintained by the government and/or the factories. Who can tell me that Apple would even be allowed to ensure better working/living conditions for the people at Foxconn.
This is a slow slow process. Any person who has studied the labor movement in the U.S. and Britain will get it... anyone else... not so much.
[it's like saying that starvation can be fixed overnight. Yes it can... in a perfect world. There are just too many complications that get in the way, though. That doesn't mean to say that people aren't trying]
These people couldn't care less about the employees at Foxconn or anywhere else. They think they do but they don't...not really. They just do these things so they can feel like they matter in life and so that their friends will think they're "cool people" and who cares if living conditions are really improved anywhere in the end. Spending your days as an "activist" is easier, more adventurous, and more fun than getting serious about a career and working through the day-to-day drudgery of a job to provide for themselves and their families. Next they will be protesting whatever else The New York Times has criticized and the conditions at Foxconn will be forgotten.
If they really want to try to improve the lives of people in China they should fly a group of themselves over there and make their demands directly to the communist Chinese government in some high profile way that is embarrasing for the Chinese political and military leadership. Surely the Chinese government has a far more profound impact on the lives of Chinese citizens than any foreign company does. They could stage a "die in" in Tiananmen Square in protest of the conditions that Chinese citizens face. That would impress me a little more. They won't do that however because it involves real effort and danger and actually seeing improvements in the lives of Chinese folks is not what this is about anyways. It's just about seeing yourself as an "activist" and feeling like you matter and avoiding having to get a job.
I talked about cutting Foxconn out of the picture. You're the one who jumped to the conclusion that I meant the entire supply chain. These parts are delivered to Foxconn from Samsung, Qualcomm, Skyworks, Toshiba, OmniVision and others. Foxconn does not produce these parts. Placing the factory somewhere else just means they need a different address. They're placing millions of dollars in parts on each plane. It's not that expensive.
Your best argument now is that I'm an idiot? I guess human rights violations still aren't enough to prompt drastic change. You're also assuming Foxconn wont do anything about it. Apple is a huge contract and they will very likely comply to their requests. This was all a hypothetical solution. Meanwhile, you have yet to product a single solution. Guess it's just easier to criticize. I'm being very professional and respectful. I should be asking you how old you are.
Do you really think that is funny?
Why would you simply be satisfied with Foxconn being 'cut out of the picture' and not all of Apple's secondary suppliers? Do you not realize that the conditions of these suppliers are probably much worse than those at Foxconn, because they don't have any attention and scrutiny on them?
Yes, that's my best argument to you. I'm not sure what else to call your arguments, as they don't make any sense, are not well thought out, and there's no other way to say it. Then when called out for your implausible scenarios, you tend to throw your hands up and say 'HEY GUYS AT LEAST IM DOING STUFF YOU'RE JUST CRITICIZING'. Pointing out the enormous holes in your suggestions is much more useful to people than actually reading your suggestions. You you simply want to eliminate the place with the best working conditions in Apple's supply chain (Foxconn) and are simply cool with everything else staying the way it is. If Foxconn works for Apple in your view, then so do all these other suppliers. You keep parroting on that Foxconn abuses their workers like a broken record, and haven't provided a shred of fact or evidence to back up this 'abuse', besides hours and wages that are superior to all other suppliers in China. And your solution is eliminate Foxconn because of these 'abuses'. How.. completely useless.
These people couldn't care less about the employees at Foxconn or anywhere else. They think they do but they don't...not really. They just do these things so they can feel like they matter in life and so that their friends will think they're "cool people" and who cares if living conditions are really improved anywhere in the end. Spending your days as an "activist" is easier, more adventurous, and more fun than getting serious about a career and working through the day-to-day drudgery of a job to provide for themselves and their families. Next they will be protesting whatever else The New York Times has criticized and the conditions at Foxconn will be forgotten.
If they really want to try to improve the lives of people in China they should fly a group of themselves over there and make their demands directly to the communist Chinese government in some high profile way that is embarrasing for the Chinese political and military leadership. Surely the Chinese government has a far more profound impact on the lives of Chinese citizens than any foreign company does. They could stage a "die in" in Tiananmen Square in protest of the conditions that Chinese citizens face. That would impress me a little more. They won't do that however because it involves real effort and danger and actually seeing improvements in the lives of Chinese folks is not what this is about anyways. It's just about seeing yourself as an "activist" and feeling like you matter and avoiding having to get a job.
Wrong.
First of all, I have a job. I've had it for four years. I'm a loyal Apple fan. Your stereotypical behavior shows your character. You don't see me throwing out personal attacks every chance I get. Grow up.
You guys are contradicting yourself. First you say that this problem is too big to fix and now you're attacking me for not doing anything. You say my ideas are too bold and crazy and then criticize me for not being bold and crazy. Do you actually have an opinion on this or are you just taking whatever side I'm not on? Learn how to argue so you avoid sounding stupid.
The reason I've been giving out bold ideas is because you've been hammering me to do so. You keep saying the small ideas wont work. One of you keeps referencing the labor movement in the United States like it is related. That has to do with an entire economy's reform. It has nothing to do with the operation of a single company. Apple pays them big money and China wants it. They would bend over backwards to keep them happy. Then you want to point out that my bold ideas are crazy. They are. Building a new factory would displace a lot of people and would only be a last resort. It's a terrible solution but it gives Apple leveraging power.
Your solution is to keep doing what we're doing. Apple's auditing isn't helping. They've been doing it for years and things aren't really changing. Face that reality. Your solution will accomplish absolutely nothing. It's the worst idea proposed yet. Sure, lets keep throwing rocks at the wall and expect different results. Truly idiotic.
I'm not convinced you guys know what you're talking about either. You've already contradicted yourself plenty of times but you'd like to avoid those parts.
Doing something is better than nothing. Just screaming as loud as you can about it gets peoples attention. Have you ever studied real movements? This is how they start. You guys really could care less about these people and want to push the issue under the rug and hope it solves itself. I'm not happy with that and you are a minority group of opinion on this subject. Most people can think for themselves and not just listen to what Apple says about the situation. It's clear they are misleading because their audits do not line up with reality. Dead clear. Try looking at these things called facts.
Whats your response going to be? A personal attack? How about you construct a valid argument. That'll look a lot more impressive.
You keep parroting on that Foxconn abuses their workers like a broken record, and haven't provided a shred of fact or evidence to back up this 'abuse', besides hours and wages that are superior to all other suppliers in China. And your solution is eliminate Foxconn because of these 'abuses'. How.. completely useless.
So you're denying the abuses and you're calling me stupid? Here are two stories you should read:
First of all, I have a job. I've had it for four years. I'm a loyal Apple fan. Your stereotypical behavior shows your character. You don't see me throwing out personal attacks every chance I get. Grow up.
You guys are contradicting yourself. First you say that this problem is too big to fix and now you're attacking me for not doing anything. You say my ideas are too bold and crazy and then criticize me for not being bold and crazy. Do you actually have an opinion on this or are you just taking whatever side I'm not on? Learn how to argue so you avoid sounding stupid.
The reason I've been giving out bold ideas is because you've been hammering me to do so. You keep saying the small ideas wont work. One of you keeps referencing the labor movement in the United States like it is related. That has to do with an entire economy's reform. It has nothing to do with the operation of a single company. Apple pays them big money and China wants it. They would bend over backwards to keep them happy. Then you want to point out that my bold ideas are crazy. They are. Building a new factory would displace a lot of people and would only be a last resort. It's a terrible solution but it gives Apple leveraging power.
Your solution is to keep doing what we're doing. Apple's auditing isn't helping. They've been doing it for years and things aren't really changing. Face that reality. Your solution will accomplish absolutely nothing. It's the worst idea proposed yet. Sure, lets keep throwing rocks at the wall and expect different results. Truly idiotic.
I'm not convinced you guys know what you're talking about either. You've already contradicted yourself plenty of times but you'd like to avoid those parts.
Doing something is better than nothing. Just screaming as loud as you can about it gets peoples attention. Have you ever studied real movements? This is how they start. You guys really could care less about these people and want to push the issue under the rug and hope it solves itself. I'm not happy with that and you are a minority group of opinion on this subject. Most people can think for themselves and not just listen to what Apple says about the situation. It's clear they are misleading because their audits do not line up with reality. Dead clear. Try looking at these things called facts.
Whats your response going to be? A personal attack? How about you construct a valid argument. That'll look a lot more impressive.
Keep believing that you're not delusional... you'll go far...
One thing I would suggest is actually going out and gaining some knowledge
This thread is going to go nowhere so I'll leave you with this:
There are people who want to change the world and then there are people who say it can't be done.
Meanwhile, really think about what this means:
"Being the richest man in the cemetery doesn't matter to me. Going to bed at night saying we've done something wonderful, that's what matters to me." - Steve Jobs
And you call me uneducated. Way to really embarrass yourself.
You never answered the question about whether you had been to China.
You never answered the question about what experience you have in handling these matters in order to address them in the time frame that you seem to expect.
I laughed my ass off when I saw you quoting the SMH as a source.
SMH is one of those sensationalist newspapers that constantly presents stories in the most slanted and biased ways and do so only to generate 'click through' by suckers like yourself. Facts are an afterthought when it comes to that publication, but Apple bashing is something that seems to come quite naturally to them. Ninety-five percent of the stories about Apple by them are negative.
You, my friend, are nothing but a destroyer.
You won't get your hands dirty yourself, will do nothing more involving than putting your signature on a bit of paper, do nothing but complain, and even seem unwilling to educate yourself.
I work in China on a regular basis, and your utter lack of understanding of their culture, your own culture, and business practices in general is astonishing. Your 'solutions' are all utterly theoretical, lack any depth or understanding, and seem to have been garnered from nothing but the media and press reports, and we all know how honest, upfront, and lacking in agenda these institutions are.
It is this behavior of laziness and acting on second-hand information that currently has a country as great as America both economically broke and mired in wars with multiple countries.
First become a master of yourself, before you become a master of others.
Try going out into the world and experiencing it before you start dictating and demanding how it should be, you ignorant, silly, little girl.
One thing I would suggest is actually going out and gaining some knowledge.
This thread is going to go nowhere so I'll leave you with this:
There are people who want to change the world and then there are people who say it can't be done.
Meanwhile, really think about what this means:
"Being the richest man in the cemetery doesn't matter to me. Going to bed at night saying we've done something wonderful, that's what matters to me." - Steve Jobs
This is what Apple and Steve Jobs stands for.
Obviously knowledge and education are two separate things.
I'm not sure who is saying it can't be done. I've seen you say this a few times but I just can't find anyone who is saying that.
... and let me get this straight:
1. You quote Steve
2. You say that Steve stands for what he says in the quote
3. Then you disparage Steve's name over and over again by saying that he was not doing enough to the point where you seem to say that he didn't care
Which is it sunshine, Steve was a nasty ogre who was not doing enough for the Chinese people or Steve was a guy who was trying to do the right thing by finding ways to improve worker's conditions slowly but surely.
3. Then you disparage Steve's name over and over again by saying that he was not doing enough to the point where you seem to say that he didn't care
Which is it sunshine, Steve was a nasty ogre who was not doing enough for the Chinese people or Steve was a guy who was trying to do the right thing by finding ways to improve worker's conditions slowly but surely.
Care to show me where I've said this? I've actually given Apple a lot of credit but they can do a lot better.
Quote:
Originally Posted by GTR
It is this behavior of laziness and acting on second-hand information that currently has a country as great as America both economically broke and mired in wars with multiple countries.
What direct knowledge do you have of Foxconn? Unless you work there or are in the supply chain then you know little. Are you basing your information on second-hand information too? China is a country that controls and censors everything. Don't tell me you have some inside unbiased information because you've been there. Nearly everything you know is based on second-hand information. It's embarrassing that you even brought that up because now you're in a really awkward position to defend yourself. Now you're summing up the state of the US economy and our war based on second-hand information. How could you possibly suggest second-hand information is the reason for such complex problems? See, I've never said I know the solution, I'm merely suggesting them to prove this isn't an impossible feat. You are the one claiming to know everything.
Care to show me where I've said this? I've actually given Apple a lot of credit but they can do a lot better.
... and we keep telling you that they are continuing to change things and to make things better but you want everything done overnight with a magic wand.
And you call me uneducated. Way to really embarrass yourself.
Trust me, the only person you're embarrassing is yourself. Again, utterly predictable. You think I haven't read these 2 articles? You can't even seem to follow your own logic. You keep suggesting that Foxconn is somehow worse than other suppliers, so they should be 'cut out'. You just linked me to 2 articles which are completely useless in proving your point, or pointing out types of 'abuse' specific to Foxconn.
The CNN article is just a necessary parroting of the media attention recently and suddenly surrounding the issue, focusing on complaints such as 'long hours', etc. The smh article is about APPLE'S OWN AUDIT REPORT FINDINGS- ie. stuff that Apple itself has made public to everyone. Yet, this is supposed to be a smoking gun you're throwing in my face? You think I haven't read Apple's report in its entirety? I wouldn't even be posting here if I haven't. Yes, I'm denying Foxconn as a company does not have 'abuse' above and beyond what is normal in China, in terms of hours and wage. And the articles you linked don't give a shred of evidence otherwise. Again, you purposely obfuscate the point when you've been shown to be wrong, changing the issue on the fly and pretending you're arguing something else. A common tactic from people who aren't actually serious about any topic, yet want to 'win' an online argument.
You link me to an article that is based on Apple's own audit- unaware of the irony that you keep insisting Apple is not doing enough, that they're ignoring the situation, yet the 'smoking gun' evidence of abuse you link to is from Apple THEMSELVES, who have therefore investigated the issue more thoroughly and deeply than anyone else, and brought things to light that noone else has, which people like you then use as ammunition against them. The report is encompasses all their suppliers (100+), yet again your 'solution' to to get rid of ONLY Foxconn..just because it's probably the only one you know the name of- even though it has a better record than any of the other suppliers included in the numbers, which I have repeated to you a dozen times but which somehow you can't seem to get. Your solutions are still completely asinine, and your logic even more so.
... and we keep telling you that they are continuing to change things and to make things better but you want everything done overnight with a magic wand.
It just makes you look stupid.
I never suggested that it be done overnight. Apple's auditing isn't working. Care to find a report about how Foxconn operates at Apple's standards and that other news reports are misleading? Surely there is a reputable source out there.
See, I've never said I know the solution, I'm merely suggesting them to prove this isn't an impossible feat. You are the one claiming to know everything.
So just to clarify, you're 'suggesting' impossible 'solutions' to prove that they aren't impossible. I can pull 'solutions' out of my ass too, that doesn't prove anything to anyone- especially since I haven't the faintest clue about they can be implemented.
I'd like you to review that statement carefully, and honestly tell if it makes any logical sense to you.
This type of circular logic is a summary of all your posts. And you wonder why no one is taking you seriously. You come up with fictional solutions that Apple you say 'should do, if they cared', and since they don't then Apple doesn't care. You don't have an ounce of humility in you to aknowledge that just because something seems feasible to you ONLY because you're utterly ignorant of so many things, that doesn't mean it's actually feasible or possible.
Comments
If they really want to try to improve the lives of people in China they should fly a group of themselves over there and make their demands directly to the communist Chinese government in some high profile way that is embarrasing for the Chinese political and military leadership. Surely the Chinese government has a far more profound impact on the lives of Chinese citizens than any foreign company does. They could stage a "die in" in Tiananmen Square in protest of the conditions that Chinese citizens face. That would impress me a little more. They won't do that however because it involves real effort and danger and actually seeing improvements in the lives of Chinese folks is not what this is about anyways. It's just about seeing yourself as an "activist" and feeling like you matter and avoiding having to get a job.
So your solution is for Apple to pull out of Foxconn, causing poverty for the laid-off workers and increases in the suicide rate?
Actually, it sounds like he wants all of the manufacturers to pull out of China and therefore drive China back to the stone age.
Fucking hippies and their simplistic plans.
... oh, and by the way... the guy is a poe. If he's not a poe then...
She's wearing a cardigan just like one my wife has. Made in China!
What I find irritating about activists these days is that it's so easy now to hear bad reports from journalists, put up an eCampaign and get a bunch of signups to print out and feel like they are personally making a difference when in fact they're not really doing anything to solve the problem.
It reminds me of the Film Actors Guild:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZbuVa6GEJUg
"As actors, it is our responsibility to read the newspapers and then say what we read on television like it's our own opinion"
Armchair activists are more of a nuisance than anything - uninformed, unwashed, media whores wasting paper. People who actually go to China and report what they see directly have far more impact, like the person in the link posted earlier:
http://www.thisamericanlife.org/radi...-apple-factory
A very interesting viewpoint from an Apple fan who visited the factory to see the conditions:
"How often do we wish more things were hand-made? [We say] I wish it was like the old days, I wish things had that human touch. There are more hand-made things than there have ever been in the history of the world."
Still, these are all accounts of problems that Apple and others are aware of as he points out but the solutions aren't forthcoming. Yes we expect someone to do something but why Apple and what do they do? Are they the main target because they earn the most, are they the target because they will care the most?
Apple isn't going to stop using the factories in China so the best we can hope for is that they contribute to better working conditions (beyond what they already do), even if it means taxing us for it. Apple has sold 250 million units over the past 5 years. If Apple had put a $5 tax on every unit and distributed that to 100,000 workers directly who assembled iOS devices, each worker would make $2,500 extra per year = 15,700 Renmibi. The yearly salary is around 24,000 Renmibi.
This is surely enough to either allow them to cut their working hours to reasonable levels or afford what they want like save up for an iPad within the yearly product cycle. Apple can put the tax rate right on the purchase page:
iPad: $499
Delivery: free
Asian worker sponsorship (assurance that every worker worked under 60 hours, was not underage and earned a reasonable wage): $5
Feeling like you made a difference: priceless
What would you do
If you were asked to give up your iPad for freedom?
What would you do
If asked to make the ultimate sacrifice?
Would you think about all them people
Who gave up everything they had?
Would you think about all them workers
And would you start to feel bad?
Freedom isn't free
It costs folks like you and me
And if we don't all chip in
We'll never pay that bill
Freedom isn't free
No, there's a hefty fuckin' fee.
And if you don't throw in your five bucks
Who will?
Freedom costs five bucks
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wVY7qDjrPZk
Freedom costs five bucks
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wVY7qDjrPZk
... and who guarantees that the five bucks will go to the workers.
... and why do some people think there is a simplistic answer to these problems. There is a balance in China that seems to be maintained by the government and/or the factories. Who can tell me that Apple would even be allowed to ensure better working/living conditions for the people at Foxconn.
This is a slow slow process. Any person who has studied the labor movement in the U.S. and Britain will get it... anyone else... not so much.
[it's like saying that starvation can be fixed overnight. Yes it can... in a perfect world. There are just too many complications that get in the way, though. That doesn't mean to say that people aren't trying]
These people couldn't care less about the employees at Foxconn or anywhere else. They think they do but they don't...not really. They just do these things so they can feel like they matter in life and so that their friends will think they're "cool people" and who cares if living conditions are really improved anywhere in the end. Spending your days as an "activist" is easier, more adventurous, and more fun than getting serious about a career and working through the day-to-day drudgery of a job to provide for themselves and their families. Next they will be protesting whatever else The New York Times has criticized and the conditions at Foxconn will be forgotten.
If they really want to try to improve the lives of people in China they should fly a group of themselves over there and make their demands directly to the communist Chinese government in some high profile way that is embarrasing for the Chinese political and military leadership. Surely the Chinese government has a far more profound impact on the lives of Chinese citizens than any foreign company does. They could stage a "die in" in Tiananmen Square in protest of the conditions that Chinese citizens face. That would impress me a little more. They won't do that however because it involves real effort and danger and actually seeing improvements in the lives of Chinese folks is not what this is about anyways. It's just about seeing yourself as an "activist" and feeling like you matter and avoiding having to get a job.
Absolutely bang spot on.
I talked about cutting Foxconn out of the picture. You're the one who jumped to the conclusion that I meant the entire supply chain. These parts are delivered to Foxconn from Samsung, Qualcomm, Skyworks, Toshiba, OmniVision and others. Foxconn does not produce these parts. Placing the factory somewhere else just means they need a different address. They're placing millions of dollars in parts on each plane. It's not that expensive.
Your best argument now is that I'm an idiot? I guess human rights violations still aren't enough to prompt drastic change. You're also assuming Foxconn wont do anything about it. Apple is a huge contract and they will very likely comply to their requests. This was all a hypothetical solution. Meanwhile, you have yet to product a single solution. Guess it's just easier to criticize. I'm being very professional and respectful. I should be asking you how old you are.
Do you really think that is funny?
Why would you simply be satisfied with Foxconn being 'cut out of the picture' and not all of Apple's secondary suppliers? Do you not realize that the conditions of these suppliers are probably much worse than those at Foxconn, because they don't have any attention and scrutiny on them?
Yes, that's my best argument to you. I'm not sure what else to call your arguments, as they don't make any sense, are not well thought out, and there's no other way to say it. Then when called out for your implausible scenarios, you tend to throw your hands up and say 'HEY GUYS AT LEAST IM DOING STUFF YOU'RE JUST CRITICIZING'. Pointing out the enormous holes in your suggestions is much more useful to people than actually reading your suggestions. You you simply want to eliminate the place with the best working conditions in Apple's supply chain (Foxconn) and are simply cool with everything else staying the way it is. If Foxconn works for Apple in your view, then so do all these other suppliers. You keep parroting on that Foxconn abuses their workers like a broken record, and haven't provided a shred of fact or evidence to back up this 'abuse', besides hours and wages that are superior to all other suppliers in China. And your solution is eliminate Foxconn because of these 'abuses'. How.. completely useless.
These people couldn't care less about the employees at Foxconn or anywhere else. They think they do but they don't...not really. They just do these things so they can feel like they matter in life and so that their friends will think they're "cool people" and who cares if living conditions are really improved anywhere in the end. Spending your days as an "activist" is easier, more adventurous, and more fun than getting serious about a career and working through the day-to-day drudgery of a job to provide for themselves and their families. Next they will be protesting whatever else The New York Times has criticized and the conditions at Foxconn will be forgotten.
If they really want to try to improve the lives of people in China they should fly a group of themselves over there and make their demands directly to the communist Chinese government in some high profile way that is embarrasing for the Chinese political and military leadership. Surely the Chinese government has a far more profound impact on the lives of Chinese citizens than any foreign company does. They could stage a "die in" in Tiananmen Square in protest of the conditions that Chinese citizens face. That would impress me a little more. They won't do that however because it involves real effort and danger and actually seeing improvements in the lives of Chinese folks is not what this is about anyways. It's just about seeing yourself as an "activist" and feeling like you matter and avoiding having to get a job.
Wrong.
First of all, I have a job. I've had it for four years. I'm a loyal Apple fan. Your stereotypical behavior shows your character. You don't see me throwing out personal attacks every chance I get. Grow up.
You guys are contradicting yourself. First you say that this problem is too big to fix and now you're attacking me for not doing anything. You say my ideas are too bold and crazy and then criticize me for not being bold and crazy. Do you actually have an opinion on this or are you just taking whatever side I'm not on? Learn how to argue so you avoid sounding stupid.
The reason I've been giving out bold ideas is because you've been hammering me to do so. You keep saying the small ideas wont work. One of you keeps referencing the labor movement in the United States like it is related. That has to do with an entire economy's reform. It has nothing to do with the operation of a single company. Apple pays them big money and China wants it. They would bend over backwards to keep them happy. Then you want to point out that my bold ideas are crazy. They are. Building a new factory would displace a lot of people and would only be a last resort. It's a terrible solution but it gives Apple leveraging power.
Your solution is to keep doing what we're doing. Apple's auditing isn't helping. They've been doing it for years and things aren't really changing. Face that reality. Your solution will accomplish absolutely nothing. It's the worst idea proposed yet. Sure, lets keep throwing rocks at the wall and expect different results. Truly idiotic.
I'm not convinced you guys know what you're talking about either. You've already contradicted yourself plenty of times but you'd like to avoid those parts.
Doing something is better than nothing. Just screaming as loud as you can about it gets peoples attention. Have you ever studied real movements? This is how they start. You guys really could care less about these people and want to push the issue under the rug and hope it solves itself. I'm not happy with that and you are a minority group of opinion on this subject. Most people can think for themselves and not just listen to what Apple says about the situation. It's clear they are misleading because their audits do not line up with reality. Dead clear. Try looking at these things called facts.
Whats your response going to be? A personal attack? How about you construct a valid argument. That'll look a lot more impressive.
You keep parroting on that Foxconn abuses their workers like a broken record, and haven't provided a shred of fact or evidence to back up this 'abuse', besides hours and wages that are superior to all other suppliers in China. And your solution is eliminate Foxconn because of these 'abuses'. How.. completely useless.
So you're denying the abuses and you're calling me stupid? Here are two stories you should read:
http://www.smh.com.au/technology/tec...116-1q1wt.html
http://edition.cnn.com/2012/02/06/wo...ker/index.html
And you call me uneducated. Way to really embarrass yourself.
Wrong.
First of all, I have a job. I've had it for four years. I'm a loyal Apple fan. Your stereotypical behavior shows your character. You don't see me throwing out personal attacks every chance I get. Grow up.
You guys are contradicting yourself. First you say that this problem is too big to fix and now you're attacking me for not doing anything. You say my ideas are too bold and crazy and then criticize me for not being bold and crazy. Do you actually have an opinion on this or are you just taking whatever side I'm not on? Learn how to argue so you avoid sounding stupid.
The reason I've been giving out bold ideas is because you've been hammering me to do so. You keep saying the small ideas wont work. One of you keeps referencing the labor movement in the United States like it is related. That has to do with an entire economy's reform. It has nothing to do with the operation of a single company. Apple pays them big money and China wants it. They would bend over backwards to keep them happy. Then you want to point out that my bold ideas are crazy. They are. Building a new factory would displace a lot of people and would only be a last resort. It's a terrible solution but it gives Apple leveraging power.
Your solution is to keep doing what we're doing. Apple's auditing isn't helping. They've been doing it for years and things aren't really changing. Face that reality. Your solution will accomplish absolutely nothing. It's the worst idea proposed yet. Sure, lets keep throwing rocks at the wall and expect different results. Truly idiotic.
I'm not convinced you guys know what you're talking about either. You've already contradicted yourself plenty of times but you'd like to avoid those parts.
Doing something is better than nothing. Just screaming as loud as you can about it gets peoples attention. Have you ever studied real movements? This is how they start. You guys really could care less about these people and want to push the issue under the rug and hope it solves itself. I'm not happy with that and you are a minority group of opinion on this subject. Most people can think for themselves and not just listen to what Apple says about the situation. It's clear they are misleading because their audits do not line up with reality. Dead clear. Try looking at these things called facts.
Whats your response going to be? A personal attack? How about you construct a valid argument. That'll look a lot more impressive.
Keep believing that you're not delusional... you'll go far...
So you're denying the abuses and you're calling me stupid? Here are two stories you should read:
http://www.smh.com.au/technology/tec...116-1q1wt.html
http://edition.cnn.com/2012/02/06/wo...ker/index.html
And you call me uneducated. Way to really embarrass yourself.
Where did Slurpy call you uneducated?
That's just embarrassing...
Where did Slurpy call you uneducated?
Right here:
One thing I would suggest is actually going out and gaining some knowledge
This thread is going to go nowhere so I'll leave you with this:
There are people who want to change the world and then there are people who say it can't be done.
Meanwhile, really think about what this means:
"Being the richest man in the cemetery doesn't matter to me. Going to bed at night saying we've done something wonderful, that's what matters to me." - Steve Jobs
This is what Apple and Steve Jobs stands for.
So you're denying the abuses and you're calling me stupid? Here are two stories you should read:
http://www.smh.com.au/technology/tec...116-1q1wt.html
http://edition.cnn.com/2012/02/06/wo...ker/index.html
And you call me uneducated. Way to really embarrass yourself.
You never answered the question about whether you had been to China.
You never answered the question about what experience you have in handling these matters in order to address them in the time frame that you seem to expect.
I laughed my ass off when I saw you quoting the SMH as a source.
SMH is one of those sensationalist newspapers that constantly presents stories in the most slanted and biased ways and do so only to generate 'click through' by suckers like yourself. Facts are an afterthought when it comes to that publication, but Apple bashing is something that seems to come quite naturally to them. Ninety-five percent of the stories about Apple by them are negative.
You, my friend, are nothing but a destroyer.
You won't get your hands dirty yourself, will do nothing more involving than putting your signature on a bit of paper, do nothing but complain, and even seem unwilling to educate yourself.
I work in China on a regular basis, and your utter lack of understanding of their culture, your own culture, and business practices in general is astonishing. Your 'solutions' are all utterly theoretical, lack any depth or understanding, and seem to have been garnered from nothing but the media and press reports, and we all know how honest, upfront, and lacking in agenda these institutions are.
It is this behavior of laziness and acting on second-hand information that currently has a country as great as America both economically broke and mired in wars with multiple countries.
First become a master of yourself, before you become a master of others.
Try going out into the world and experiencing it before you start dictating and demanding how it should be, you ignorant, silly, little girl.
Right here:
Originally Posted by Slurpy View Post
One thing I would suggest is actually going out and gaining some knowledge.
This thread is going to go nowhere so I'll leave you with this:
There are people who want to change the world and then there are people who say it can't be done.
Meanwhile, really think about what this means:
"Being the richest man in the cemetery doesn't matter to me. Going to bed at night saying we've done something wonderful, that's what matters to me." - Steve Jobs
This is what Apple and Steve Jobs stands for.
Obviously knowledge and education are two separate things.
I'm not sure who is saying it can't be done. I've seen you say this a few times but I just can't find anyone who is saying that.
... and let me get this straight:
1. You quote Steve
2. You say that Steve stands for what he says in the quote
3. Then you disparage Steve's name over and over again by saying that he was not doing enough to the point where you seem to say that he didn't care
Which is it sunshine, Steve was a nasty ogre who was not doing enough for the Chinese people or Steve was a guy who was trying to do the right thing by finding ways to improve worker's conditions slowly but surely.
3. Then you disparage Steve's name over and over again by saying that he was not doing enough to the point where you seem to say that he didn't care
Which is it sunshine, Steve was a nasty ogre who was not doing enough for the Chinese people or Steve was a guy who was trying to do the right thing by finding ways to improve worker's conditions slowly but surely.
Care to show me where I've said this? I've actually given Apple a lot of credit but they can do a lot better.
It is this behavior of laziness and acting on second-hand information that currently has a country as great as America both economically broke and mired in wars with multiple countries.
What direct knowledge do you have of Foxconn? Unless you work there or are in the supply chain then you know little. Are you basing your information on second-hand information too? China is a country that controls and censors everything. Don't tell me you have some inside unbiased information because you've been there. Nearly everything you know is based on second-hand information. It's embarrassing that you even brought that up because now you're in a really awkward position to defend yourself. Now you're summing up the state of the US economy and our war based on second-hand information. How could you possibly suggest second-hand information is the reason for such complex problems? See, I've never said I know the solution, I'm merely suggesting them to prove this isn't an impossible feat. You are the one claiming to know everything.
Care to show me where I've said this? I've actually given Apple a lot of credit but they can do a lot better.
... and we keep telling you that they are continuing to change things and to make things better but you want everything done overnight with a magic wand.
It just makes you look stupid.
So you're denying the abuses and you're calling me stupid? Here are two stories you should read:
http://www.smh.com.au/technology/tec...116-1q1wt.html
http://edition.cnn.com/2012/02/06/wo...ker/index.html
And you call me uneducated. Way to really embarrass yourself.
Trust me, the only person you're embarrassing is yourself. Again, utterly predictable. You think I haven't read these 2 articles? You can't even seem to follow your own logic. You keep suggesting that Foxconn is somehow worse than other suppliers, so they should be 'cut out'. You just linked me to 2 articles which are completely useless in proving your point, or pointing out types of 'abuse' specific to Foxconn.
The CNN article is just a necessary parroting of the media attention recently and suddenly surrounding the issue, focusing on complaints such as 'long hours', etc. The smh article is about APPLE'S OWN AUDIT REPORT FINDINGS- ie. stuff that Apple itself has made public to everyone. Yet, this is supposed to be a smoking gun you're throwing in my face? You think I haven't read Apple's report in its entirety? I wouldn't even be posting here if I haven't. Yes, I'm denying Foxconn as a company does not have 'abuse' above and beyond what is normal in China, in terms of hours and wage. And the articles you linked don't give a shred of evidence otherwise. Again, you purposely obfuscate the point when you've been shown to be wrong, changing the issue on the fly and pretending you're arguing something else. A common tactic from people who aren't actually serious about any topic, yet want to 'win' an online argument.
You link me to an article that is based on Apple's own audit- unaware of the irony that you keep insisting Apple is not doing enough, that they're ignoring the situation, yet the 'smoking gun' evidence of abuse you link to is from Apple THEMSELVES, who have therefore investigated the issue more thoroughly and deeply than anyone else, and brought things to light that noone else has, which people like you then use as ammunition against them. The report is encompasses all their suppliers (100+), yet again your 'solution' to to get rid of ONLY Foxconn..just because it's probably the only one you know the name of- even though it has a better record than any of the other suppliers included in the numbers, which I have repeated to you a dozen times but which somehow you can't seem to get. Your solutions are still completely asinine, and your logic even more so.
... and we keep telling you that they are continuing to change things and to make things better but you want everything done overnight with a magic wand.
It just makes you look stupid.
I never suggested that it be done overnight. Apple's auditing isn't working. Care to find a report about how Foxconn operates at Apple's standards and that other news reports are misleading? Surely there is a reputable source out there.
Trust me, the only person you're embarrassing is yourself.
Your solutions are still completely asinine, and your logic even more so.
I think this kid is just jiving us. Nobody could be that naive.
See, I've never said I know the solution, I'm merely suggesting them to prove this isn't an impossible feat. You are the one claiming to know everything.
So just to clarify, you're 'suggesting' impossible 'solutions' to prove that they aren't impossible. I can pull 'solutions' out of my ass too, that doesn't prove anything to anyone- especially since I haven't the faintest clue about they can be implemented.
I'd like you to review that statement carefully, and honestly tell if it makes any logical sense to you.
This type of circular logic is a summary of all your posts. And you wonder why no one is taking you seriously. You come up with fictional solutions that Apple you say 'should do, if they cared', and since they don't then Apple doesn't care. You don't have an ounce of humility in you to aknowledge that just because something seems feasible to you ONLY because you're utterly ignorant of so many things, that doesn't mean it's actually feasible or possible.