[quote]In a situation reverse that of the captain's yacht, saucer separation was a capability designed into the Enterprise-E that in the end may not actually exist. John Eaves produced a sketch showing how the ship could separate, and this was probably considered when drafting the ship's blueprints. The studio model clearly shows separation lines right between the saucer section and the stardrive, and there is also a battle bridge shown on the master situation monitor. Redundant shuttlebays and torpedo launchers in both hulls would also support separation ability. However, the stardrive is missing its own set of impulse engines. Furthermore, rumored dialogue from Star Trek: Nemesis explicitly states the Enterprise-E cannot separate its saucer. I personally believe the Enterprise-E is saucer separable, and have provided for that in the technical specs. Eaves's sketch plus battle bridge and separation lines are very convincing arguments for separation. The only problem would be the missing impulse engine, but the stardrive section could have an engine hidden somewhere such as on the back of the warp nacelles or even a larger version of the in-line system present on the Defiant class. This would most likely be an inefficient arrangement, but saucer separation on the Enterprise-E is probably not a routine maneuver as on the Enterprise-D. For now, I am treating the Nemesis line as a rumor.<hr></blockquote>As I recall, nothing was said about separation in Nemesis.
<strong>You guys might mock abercrombie teens and such, but if there were more at the theaters coming to watch nemesis, then the numbers wouldn't be looking so bad right now.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Maybe it was because they were all at the screen next door watching Maid in Manhattan.
<strong>Wow, you guys have me hyped about this installment! If it is "up there" with WOK and UC, I am really excited! Initially, I was happy to hear a new ST film was coming, but then that little voice inside said, "You really want to see it that bad? You know the series has been running dry for some time now. Logically, you just can't expect much..." ...But you guys have reinvigorated my interest! If the mass audience isn't "buying into it", that's probably not such a bad sign for a ST film that has some good traditional content in it.
Care to flesh out some examples to discuss, or is this a hit'n'run?
No I don't mind, just didn't want to spoil any of the plot for those who hadn't seen it yet.
SO......
SPOILER......SPOILER.......SPOILER......SPOILER..
First you have the principal main bad character. His motivations are horribly muddled. He has been treated horrible by the Romulans. So much so that we believe that he hates his humanity. Of course the most important thing is that he sees himself as Remus instead of human.
So... he kills the Romulan senate to assume control of the empire... but why? In the movie, he doesn't appear to need a fleet of ships to accomplish his objective, just his. So why take over the Romulan planet when he gains nothing from it.
Now a second question, if the Romulans treated him this way, why not just destroy their planet as well. I mean that would have been pretty cool and also logically consistant. He does not take nor gain ANYTHING from being the leader of the Romulan empire. He still has one ship, an undetectable cloak and the ability to pretty much beam out Picard at will.
Second issue, why is it that the Enterprise can sustain more hits than any other ship on the screen, but the first flurry knocks it out of warp drive instantly.
Another issue, shields can stop phasers and torpedos, but I guess not ships. The ship Enterprise was fighting had 70% shields when Enterprise hit it. We saw no sign of these shields when it hit.
The whole psychic episode with Troy... not a single explanation of it was explained. It was just a convenient plot element.
How about the fact that this radiation weapon that can destroy an entire planet just happens to take like 7-9 minutes to deploy itself when everything else on the ship is quick, overpowering, and beyond state of the art. Oh and of course a smallest part of this radiation could kill thousands of life forms instantly, so we leave the place in the ship that generates it unprotected, exposed, and of course vunerable to everything.
I don't agree, trumptman. The Praetor wanted to destroy humanity and thereby the federation....thereby making his empire all the more powerful.
[quote] Second issue, why is it that the Enterprise can sustain more hits than any other ship on the screen, but the first flurry knocks it out of warp drive instantly. <hr></blockquote>
Because it is a movie
[quote] Another issue, shields can stop phasers and torpedos, but I guess not ships. The ship Enterprise was fighting had 70% shields when Enterprise hit it. We saw no sign of these shields when it hit. <hr></blockquote>
Because it is a movie
[quote]The whole psychic episode with Troy... not a single explanation of it was explained. It was just a convenient plot element. <hr></blockquote>
True. But, once again... it is a movie
[quote]How about the fact that this radiation weapon that can destroy an entire planet just happens to take like 7-9 minutes to deploy itself when everything else on the ship is quick, overpowering, and beyond state of the art. <hr></blockquote>
Because it is a movie.
[quote] Oh and of course a smallest part of this radiation could kill thousands of life forms instantly, so we leave the place in the ship that generates it unprotected, exposed, and of course vunerable to everything. <hr></blockquote>
Thought that was pretty dumb too.
There were some holes, I'll give you that. I think they blew the editing with cutting back Worf's part (as well as Crushers). I also thought the score kind of sucked.
I never understood people complaining about the science behind Star Trek. You don't see people complaining about the magic behind Harry Potter, or the force in star wars. I know that star trek is based on science, but its based on stuff we have no idea about. So for people with the slightest bit of technical knowledge to rip the series apart for it seems harsh. OH well, my rant for the day is over.
At this point, i am scheduling the time for when i can go back to the theater and see this movie again.
<strong>I never understood people complaining about the science behind Star Trek. You don't see people complaining about the magic behind Harry Potter, or the force in star wars. I know that star trek is based on science, but its based on stuff we have no idea about. So for people with the slightest bit of technical knowledge to rip the series apart for it seems harsh. OH well, my rant for the day is over.
At this point, i am scheduling the time for when i can go back to the theater and see this movie again.</strong><hr></blockquote>
That's because we all know Harry Potter is retarded and Star Ways is fantasy. But Star Trek, had an inkling of reality to it. That's why more nerds and dorks like us hold it dear to our hearts. We picture ourselves on the bridge shouting orders to blast those freaking Romulans out of the sky!
I just got back from seeing it and I think it's my favorite TNG movie. All the negative arguments I've read are unfounded ( yes even Trumpetman or what ever his name is ). Shinzon would have needed more than one ship ( no matter how powerful ) for example. Or did you really need an explanation of the psychic scene?
Also the weapon doesn't have to deploy fast. It's ment to destroy a planet after all. So you just sneak up on them with your cloak and fire away. Since they can't see you you've got all the time in the world. Even the Death Star doesn't fire up real fast. But, then no one is trying to nit pick that franchise to death. Those are really stupid points.
This was the perfect cap to TNG. Which brings me to my only negative comment and that is their age. Brent Spiner not only looks older but he's put on weight ( a little harder to explain in an android ). This is a good place to stop. Any more and they would be doing what Kirk and company were doing. I'm almost 50 and I know I can't run and jump like I used to. Other than that it's a very good place to say goodbye to TNG. Screw the critics and the Trek bashers! I'm going to see it again and can't wait for the DVD.
Ps. About the Discover article: In the film they said " Complete genetic transfusion " not blood transfusion. geez!
<strong>I just got back from seeing it and I think it's my favorite TNG movie. All the negative arguments I've read are unfounded ( yes even Trumpetman or what ever his name is ). Shinzon would have needed more than one ship ( no matter how powerful ) for example. Or did you really need an explanation of the psychic scene?
Also the weapon doesn't have to deploy fast. It's ment to destroy a planet after all. So you just sneak up on them with your cloak and fire away. Since they can't see you you've got all the time in the world. Even the Death Star doesn't fire up real fast. But, then no one is trying to nit pick that franchise to death. Those are really stupid points.
This was the perfect cap to TNG. Which brings me to my only negative comment and that is their age. Brent Spiner not only looks older but he's put on weight ( a little harder to explain in an android ). This is a good place to stop. Any more and they would be doing what Kirk and company were doing. I'm almost 50 and I know I can't run and jump like I used to. Other than that it's a very good place to say goodbye to TNG. Screw the critics and the Trek bashers! I'm going to see it again and can't wait for the DVD.
Ps. About the Discover article: In the film they said " Complete genetic transfusion " not blood transfusion. geez!
<strong>I was however, under the impression that the Enterprise could split into 2 sections that could both attack the big ass ship.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Although the enterprise "D" could do that, it took time to separate the saucer section while at a full stop, and therefore not recommended in battle situations. However, the prototype "Phoenix" (I think), that was shown on one Voyager episode, was specifically designed to separate in 3 sections during battle situations. (AKA: the Multi-vector assault mode)
However, the prototype "Phoenix" (I think), that was shown on one Voyager episode, was specifically designed to separate in 3 sections during battle situations. (AKA: the Multi-vector assault mode) </strong><hr></blockquote>
Yes, I throughly enjoyed the Multi-Vector Assault Mode of the PROMETHEUS. One of my favorite Voyager episodes (though I didn't watch it much)
trumptman, well I appreciate the details you supplied. Very good observations to make. We would be nought for Star Trek fans if we couldn't hold a critical eye to the science at least for discussion. Part of it is imagination and part of it is relating the parts of science that we do have now. I think that is from where we get interesting discussions such as this.
I think SDW2001's "It's a movie" comment is said mostly in jest, of course. I don't feel a Star Trek piece should be able to cop out on that explanation so easily, either. Realistically, it probably doesn't matter for the general audience anyway- as long as they are entertained in the end. If this installment to the series had been as entertaining as it was plus the science exhibited was utterly invulnerable, we would truly have a ST masterpiece here, no?
I thought the Discover article was interesting, as well. That's funny about the "complete genetic transfusion" vs. "blood transfusion" premise-shift. The cgt idea seems to be a somewhat flakey Hollywood-style fix-all plot element (well, duh- how could that not work). Without having seen the movie, yet, I actually have an off-the-cuff explanation even if it really was just a blood transfusion, as posed by the Discover the article.
<strong>Yes, I throughly enjoyed the Multi-Vector Assault Mode of the PROMETHEUS. One of my favorite Voyager episodes (though I didn't watch it much)</strong><hr></blockquote>
<strong>Another issue, shields can stop phasers and torpedos, but I guess not ships. The ship Enterprise was fighting had 70% shields when Enterprise hit it. We saw no sign of these shields when it hit.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Maybe shields are designed to stop bursts of energy rather than several million tons of De-troit steel.
I just saw it tonight. I guess it was worth the $6.50, but it wasn't a great film. It didn't seem fresh. It ends in pretty much the same inevitable fashion countless Trek movies/episodes have ended. I wasn't on the edge of my seat. "Trek" has never been able to top the Borg.
P.S. When the impaled Shinzon pulled himself toward Picard at the end, was anyone else struck by the fact that at the end of "Fellowship of the Ring" last year, the Uruk-hai chieftain did the same thing during his fight with Aragorn?
<strong>Second issue, why is it that the Enterprise can sustain more hits than any other ship on the screen, but the first flurry knocks it out of warp drive instantly. </strong><hr></blockquote>
This is a problem that I've always had with Star Trek. If you'd read the TNG Tech. Manual, you would have thought that being the most powerful ship in Starfleet, the Enterprise-D was one pretty badass ship. Yet more often than not, one hit was all it took to reduce its shields down to <50%, or at least cause a hull rupture or something.
At least DS9 was a little better with that. The Defiant always looked to me like it was the Energizer Bunny. It just kept on going, and going, and going...
Comments
[quote]In a situation reverse that of the captain's yacht, saucer separation was a capability designed into the Enterprise-E that in the end may not actually exist. John Eaves produced a sketch showing how the ship could separate, and this was probably considered when drafting the ship's blueprints. The studio model clearly shows separation lines right between the saucer section and the stardrive, and there is also a battle bridge shown on the master situation monitor. Redundant shuttlebays and torpedo launchers in both hulls would also support separation ability. However, the stardrive is missing its own set of impulse engines. Furthermore, rumored dialogue from Star Trek: Nemesis explicitly states the Enterprise-E cannot separate its saucer. I personally believe the Enterprise-E is saucer separable, and have provided for that in the technical specs. Eaves's sketch plus battle bridge and separation lines are very convincing arguments for separation. The only problem would be the missing impulse engine, but the stardrive section could have an engine hidden somewhere such as on the back of the warp nacelles or even a larger version of the in-line system present on the Defiant class. This would most likely be an inefficient arrangement, but saucer separation on the Enterprise-E is probably not a routine maneuver as on the Enterprise-D. For now, I am treating the Nemesis line as a rumor.<hr></blockquote>As I recall, nothing was said about separation in Nemesis.
Then again, about 48 minutes of the film was cut before it was released.
<strong>About possible saucer separation on Enterprise E from <a href="http://home.att.net/~enterprise1701d/1701-e/faq.html"; target="_blank">here</a>:
As I recall, nothing was said about separation in Nemesis.</strong><hr></blockquote>
An "in-line" system present on the Defiant class? What does that mean? That the Warp and Impulse engines are combined into one unit?
<strong>You guys might mock abercrombie teens and such, but if there were more at the theaters coming to watch nemesis, then the numbers wouldn't be looking so bad right now.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Maybe it was because they were all at the screen next door watching Maid in Manhattan.
<strong>Wow, you guys have me hyped about this installment! If it is "up there" with WOK and UC, I am really excited! Initially, I was happy to hear a new ST film was coming, but then that little voice inside said, "You really want to see it that bad? You know the series has been running dry for some time now. Logically, you just can't expect much..." ...But you guys have reinvigorated my interest! If the mass audience isn't "buying into it", that's probably not such a bad sign for a ST film that has some good traditional content in it.
Care to flesh out some examples to discuss, or is this a hit'n'run?
[ 12-15-2002: Message edited by: Randycat99 ]</strong><hr></blockquote>
No I don't mind, just didn't want to spoil any of the plot for those who hadn't seen it yet.
SO......
SPOILER......SPOILER.......SPOILER......SPOILER..
First you have the principal main bad character. His motivations are horribly muddled. He has been treated horrible by the Romulans. So much so that we believe that he hates his humanity. Of course the most important thing is that he sees himself as Remus instead of human.
So... he kills the Romulan senate to assume control of the empire... but why? In the movie, he doesn't appear to need a fleet of ships to accomplish his objective, just his. So why take over the Romulan planet when he gains nothing from it.
Now a second question, if the Romulans treated him this way, why not just destroy their planet as well. I mean that would have been pretty cool and also logically consistant. He does not take nor gain ANYTHING from being the leader of the Romulan empire. He still has one ship, an undetectable cloak and the ability to pretty much beam out Picard at will.
Second issue, why is it that the Enterprise can sustain more hits than any other ship on the screen, but the first flurry knocks it out of warp drive instantly.
Another issue, shields can stop phasers and torpedos, but I guess not ships. The ship Enterprise was fighting had 70% shields when Enterprise hit it. We saw no sign of these shields when it hit.
The whole psychic episode with Troy... not a single explanation of it was explained. It was just a convenient plot element.
How about the fact that this radiation weapon that can destroy an entire planet just happens to take like 7-9 minutes to deploy itself when everything else on the ship is quick, overpowering, and beyond state of the art. Oh and of course a smallest part of this radiation could kill thousands of life forms instantly, so we leave the place in the ship that generates it unprotected, exposed, and of course vunerable to everything.
How is that for starters...
Nick
[ 12-16-2002: Message edited by: SDW2001 ]</p>
[quote] Second issue, why is it that the Enterprise can sustain more hits than any other ship on the screen, but the first flurry knocks it out of warp drive instantly. <hr></blockquote>
Because it is a movie
[quote] Another issue, shields can stop phasers and torpedos, but I guess not ships. The ship Enterprise was fighting had 70% shields when Enterprise hit it. We saw no sign of these shields when it hit. <hr></blockquote>
Because it is a movie
[quote]The whole psychic episode with Troy... not a single explanation of it was explained. It was just a convenient plot element. <hr></blockquote>
True. But, once again... it is a movie
[quote]How about the fact that this radiation weapon that can destroy an entire planet just happens to take like 7-9 minutes to deploy itself when everything else on the ship is quick, overpowering, and beyond state of the art. <hr></blockquote>
Because it is a movie.
[quote] Oh and of course a smallest part of this radiation could kill thousands of life forms instantly, so we leave the place in the ship that generates it unprotected, exposed, and of course vunerable to everything. <hr></blockquote>
Thought that was pretty dumb too.
There were some holes, I'll give you that. I think they blew the editing with cutting back Worf's part (as well as Crushers). I also thought the score kind of sucked.
<a href="http://www.discover.com/science_news/features/gthere.html?article=feat_trek.html"; target="_blank">http://www.discover.com/science_news/features/gthere.html?article=feat_trek.html</a>;
At this point, i am scheduling the time for when i can go back to the theater and see this movie again.
<strong>I never understood people complaining about the science behind Star Trek. You don't see people complaining about the magic behind Harry Potter, or the force in star wars. I know that star trek is based on science, but its based on stuff we have no idea about. So for people with the slightest bit of technical knowledge to rip the series apart for it seems harsh. OH well, my rant for the day is over.
At this point, i am scheduling the time for when i can go back to the theater and see this movie again.</strong><hr></blockquote>
That's because we all know Harry Potter is retarded and Star Ways is fantasy. But Star Trek, had an inkling of reality to it. That's why more nerds and dorks like us hold it dear to our hearts. We picture ourselves on the bridge shouting orders to blast those freaking Romulans out of the sky!
[ 12-16-2002: Message edited by: Outsider ]</p>
Also the weapon doesn't have to deploy fast. It's ment to destroy a planet after all. So you just sneak up on them with your cloak and fire away. Since they can't see you you've got all the time in the world. Even the Death Star doesn't fire up real fast. But, then no one is trying to nit pick that franchise to death. Those are really stupid points.
This was the perfect cap to TNG. Which brings me to my only negative comment and that is their age. Brent Spiner not only looks older but he's put on weight ( a little harder to explain in an android ). This is a good place to stop. Any more and they would be doing what Kirk and company were doing. I'm almost 50 and I know I can't run and jump like I used to. Other than that it's a very good place to say goodbye to TNG. Screw the critics and the Trek bashers! I'm going to see it again and can't wait for the DVD.
Ps. About the Discover article: In the film they said " Complete genetic transfusion " not blood transfusion. geez!
[ 12-17-2002: Message edited by: jimmac ]</p>
<strong>I just got back from seeing it and I think it's my favorite TNG movie. All the negative arguments I've read are unfounded ( yes even Trumpetman or what ever his name is ). Shinzon would have needed more than one ship ( no matter how powerful ) for example. Or did you really need an explanation of the psychic scene?
Also the weapon doesn't have to deploy fast. It's ment to destroy a planet after all. So you just sneak up on them with your cloak and fire away. Since they can't see you you've got all the time in the world. Even the Death Star doesn't fire up real fast. But, then no one is trying to nit pick that franchise to death. Those are really stupid points.
This was the perfect cap to TNG. Which brings me to my only negative comment and that is their age. Brent Spiner not only looks older but he's put on weight ( a little harder to explain in an android ). This is a good place to stop. Any more and they would be doing what Kirk and company were doing. I'm almost 50 and I know I can't run and jump like I used to. Other than that it's a very good place to say goodbye to TNG. Screw the critics and the Trek bashers! I'm going to see it again and can't wait for the DVD.
Ps. About the Discover article: In the film they said " Complete genetic transfusion " not blood transfusion. geez!
[ 12-17-2002: Message edited by: jimmac ]</strong><hr></blockquote>
I agree. (WHHAAATT????)
<strong>I was however, under the impression that the Enterprise could split into 2 sections that could both attack the big ass ship.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Although the enterprise "D" could do that, it took time to separate the saucer section while at a full stop, and therefore not recommended in battle situations. However, the prototype "Phoenix" (I think), that was shown on one Voyager episode, was specifically designed to separate in 3 sections during battle situations. (AKA: the Multi-vector assault mode)
<strong>
However, the prototype "Phoenix" (I think), that was shown on one Voyager episode, was specifically designed to separate in 3 sections during battle situations. (AKA: the Multi-vector assault mode)
Yes, I throughly enjoyed the Multi-Vector Assault Mode of the PROMETHEUS. One of my favorite Voyager episodes (though I didn't watch it much)
I think SDW2001's "It's a movie" comment is said mostly in jest, of course. I don't feel a Star Trek piece should be able to cop out on that explanation so easily, either. Realistically, it probably doesn't matter for the general audience anyway- as long as they are entertained in the end. If this installment to the series had been as entertaining as it was plus the science exhibited was utterly invulnerable, we would truly have a ST masterpiece here, no?
I thought the Discover article was interesting, as well. That's funny about the "complete genetic transfusion" vs. "blood transfusion" premise-shift. The cgt idea seems to be a somewhat flakey Hollywood-style fix-all plot element (well, duh- how could that not work). Without having seen the movie, yet, I actually have an off-the-cuff explanation even if it really was just a blood transfusion, as posed by the Discover the article.
<strong>Yes, I throughly enjoyed the Multi-Vector Assault Mode of the PROMETHEUS. One of my favorite Voyager episodes (though I didn't watch it much)</strong><hr></blockquote>
Ahem. "D'oh"
<strong>Another issue, shields can stop phasers and torpedos, but I guess not ships. The ship Enterprise was fighting had 70% shields when Enterprise hit it. We saw no sign of these shields when it hit.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Maybe shields are designed to stop bursts of energy rather than several million tons of De-troit steel.
I just saw it tonight. I guess it was worth the $6.50, but it wasn't a great film. It didn't seem fresh. It ends in pretty much the same inevitable fashion countless Trek movies/episodes have ended. I wasn't on the edge of my seat. "Trek" has never been able to top the Borg.
P.S. When the impaled Shinzon pulled himself toward Picard at the end, was anyone else struck by the fact that at the end of "Fellowship of the Ring" last year, the Uruk-hai chieftain did the same thing during his fight with Aragorn?
<strong>
Yes, I throughly enjoyed the Multi-Vector Assault Mode of the PROMETHEUS</strong><hr></blockquote>
Just one problem with that: if one of the sections got destroyed, the ship couldn't reassemble itself...oops.
Anyway, while the Prometheus was cool, I'll take Admiral Riker's Upgraded Enterprise-D anyday.
<strong>Second issue, why is it that the Enterprise can sustain more hits than any other ship on the screen, but the first flurry knocks it out of warp drive instantly. </strong><hr></blockquote>
This is a problem that I've always had with Star Trek. If you'd read the TNG Tech. Manual, you would have thought that being the most powerful ship in Starfleet, the Enterprise-D was one pretty badass ship. Yet more often than not, one hit was all it took to reduce its shields down to <50%, or at least cause a hull rupture or something.
At least DS9 was a little better with that. The Defiant always looked to me like it was the Energizer Bunny. It just kept on going, and going, and going...