Thanks for posting immediately after what can be dismissed as a "conspiracy theory" [to SJO] and thereby helping with the dismissal
but seriously, some good links there:
I like this quote [quote] The purpose of the prayer in this case is to seek guidance from God directly, in whatever form in which it may be given. God has a will for your life, and it is your job to discover it through direct, one-on-one communication.
Because God doesn't actually talk in direct words as he does in the Bible, one must look for signs or find a feeling of some sort to discover the messages God is trying send. It is hardly surprising that many people who pray this way come away with messages from God that accord remarkably with what they want to do in any case. The difference is that the evangelical often walks with the conviction that his own subjective impressions and choices have been blessed by God Almighty. It's hard to argue with that. <hr></blockquote>
Now it isn't faith that makes me upset it is the kind of faith that has in it the discounting of critical thought (fundamentalism disregards the whole notion of differnt interpretations of textuality) and also which carries with it the arrogance of the "true Believer"
a perspective that discounts critical introspection before it can even occure, because it is thought that this introspection is "deception"
it is arrogant and believes that it can do no wrong.
it also, as the first article makes clear, has nothing to do with Christianity outside of the United States or historically . . . It is a particularly American kind of absolutist arrogant religion that believes that the "saved" can do no wrong because they are 'saved'
Perhaps I misunderstood. I tought your conspiracy theory is that Bush and a group of elite evangelical Christian leaders were out to rule the world. This is not what you are saying?
Hm, perhaps I should add not that I doubt there are freak Christian wierdos like this, rather that these people play the US government like a violin, and that we are all pawns to their vast conspiracy. What do they call themselves, the elders of Zion? I mean, I find the idea that these few have total power over my and your life to be laughable to say the least. These people do not represent the people of the US, they do not set our agenda and we are not pawns in their game. I'm not denying their existence, I denying their influence. God, why the hell do people want to place themselves as victims and pawns and then just bitch and moan about it? If you don't like it, do something about it. What crap. You have a vote.
<strong>Perhaps I misunderstood. I tought your conspiracy theory is that Bush and a group of elite evangelical Christian leaders were out to rule the world. This is not what you are saying?</strong><hr></blockquote>no, what I posted is about a group of evangelicas called the Family who ARE expressly in favor of world domination by them and their people
they have enormous political power, groups of politicians take part in their annual Prayer Breakfast
To what extent that means that these politicians share their ideology is not exactly clear
but it does seem that many do share it
AND
yes that ideaology IS in many many ways EXACTLY like that of ISLAMISTS
except the Family viels its hatred . . . though it still hates it just calls those against its ways 'wicked' and 'deceived'.
<strong>I have always liked Blix and given his reports to the Security Council. But this kind of disturbs me.
He added that Iraqi scientists could find "more elegant ways" of approaching UN inspectors.
That does show a bit of ignorance and cold-heartedness. The guy was saying "save me!" not "i have useful information!".</strong><hr></blockquote>
Having read the above in context, I don't think this was meant in some cold-hearted "Well, this peon should have approached me more elegantly" kind of way. I get the impression Blix was merely saying that is was unlikely that the man was an Iraqi scientist, because if he had been a scientist, he would have had better avenues for approaching the inspectors, or getting a message to them, than than running screaming into a car.
<strong>Perhaps I misunderstood. I tought your conspiracy theory is that Bush and a group of elite evangelical Christian leaders were out to rule the world. This is not what you are saying?
Hm, perhaps I should add not that I doubt there are freak Christian wierdos like this, rather that these people play the US government like a violin, and that we are all pawns to their vast conspiracy. What do they call themselves, the elders of Zion? I mean, I find the idea that these few have total power over my and your life to be laughable to say the least. These people do not represent the people of the US, they do not set our agenda and we are not pawns in their game. I'm not denying their existence, I denying their influence. God, why the hell do people want to place themselves as victims and pawns and then just bitch and moan about it? If you don't like it, do something about it. What crap. You have a vote.
I never said I was a victim. I am not saying that these people are pulling all the strings.
Its not anything like the "elders of Zion" but you probably didn't read a damn word you probably saw that I was pointing out this group, saying that they do in fact wield power, and that, yes their goal is to remain "behind the scenes" (from their own mouths) and you assumed this is some out-to-lunch wacko theory
If you think this is wacko you better think again, these people are real and not very hidden, and yes, they want to control you . . . best way to stop that from happening is to show what their real motivations are: such as in the Youth Corps which seems all above boards but is a vehicle for signing people onto the 'Christian Revolution'
just look a little, it doesn't take much, for instance that post from a well respected Christian web site that calls the "Family" a group that wants to remain covert . . . . are they being conspiracists or are they merely saying what is plainly known . . . .they want to avoid Press, and scrutiny, and have a strategy to do so that entails structuring their organization in cells
I wouldn't deny their influence when politicians are crawling over each other to talk at their National Prayer Breakfast . . . like Bush did recently . . .
Ok, I deserve a good beating for that. My sincere apologies.
I was about to re-revise my message to say that those links are eexactly the srt of thing we are fighting in fundamental Islam. We can't let this be a religious war. At least I don't consider a war againsr Islam, just intolerent kooks like Bin Laden and so forth. Anyhoo, this has gotten entire off tiopic. Again, my apologies.
So far I've heard conspiracy theories about Jews wanting to rule the world, Islam wanting to rule the world, and Christians wanting to rule the world. We're in for one hell of a fight folks.
<strong>Two things could be happening when Bush announces he is "praying for guidance"
1. He is pandering to the constituency that would buy this revolting piece of crap and its implied attitudes:
or worse yet:
2. He actually thinks with this kind of sentiment</strong><hr></blockquote>
Oh. Oh. I'm in pain.
I figured the above image just had to be a parody. Just had to be. I thought to myself "Let's follow the link for this image, and see what other funny satirical stuff might be found."
But... it's... it's not satire! It's real! That image is apparently meant for the consumption of individuals who actually are capable of digesting such treacly overwrought sentimentality, who identify with and are inspired by this simultaneously naive and zealous vision of spirituality.
Forget the "Bush = armageddonist" theory for a bit, which is where some people on all sides of the political fence feel that Bush is spiritually situated.
I just don't get this "Bush being a Christian" thing at all. Judging by the policies of his administration, the following qualities are apparent: elitism, greed, materialism, privilege, duplicity, arrogance, bribery, lust for power etc etc.
Christianity, at least the variety as taught by Jesus Christ, is the polar opposite of where the Bush policies stand. I'm not a practising Christian, but I find it hard to acknowledge that Christianity in the 21st century is a totally different deal from the values Jesus taught some 2000 years back. Why does Bush have to hide his real intent behind some phoney "Christian" front to make his hardline ideas look compassionate?
[quote]Originally posted by Samantha Joanne Ollendale:
<strong>Forget the "Bush = armageddonist" theory for a bit, which is where some people on all sides of the political fence feel that Bush is spiritually situated.
I just don't get this "Bush being a Christian" thing at all. Judging by the policies of his administration, the following qualities are apparent: elitism, greed, materialism, privilege, duplicity, arrogance, bribery, lust for power etc etc.
Christianity, at least the variety as taught by Jesus Christ, is the polar opposite of where the Bush policies stand. I'm not a practising Christian, but I find it hard to acknowledge that Christianity in the 21st century is a totally different deal from the values Jesus taught some 2000 years back. Why does Bush have to hide his real intent behind some phoney "Christian" front to make his hardline ideas look compassionate?</strong><hr></blockquote>Sounds like Bush bashing and will therfore be dismissed by Bush-lovers . . .
but,If you look at the group that i discussed they are exactly that, an elitist, power hungry group of christians that hold no merit in the quote that 'a rich man has a harder time entering heaven than a camel does passing through the eye of a needle.
let me repeat that last quote so that it might sink in to some of these so called christians:
"it is harder for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle than it is for a rich man to get into heaven"
. . . . gosh darnit that sounds like a poverty pimpin Liberal
At first I was really worried about a couple of things from the above link...
[quote]Originally stated by George W. Bush, talking to Bob Woodward:
<strong>I'm the commander ? see, I don't need to explain ? I do not need to explain why I say things. That's the interesting thing about being the president. Maybe somebody needs to explain to me why they say something, but I don't feel like I owe anybody an explanation.</strong><hr></blockquote>
And further...
[quote]
<strong>We will export death and violence to the four corners of the earth in defense of our great nation.</strong><hr></blockquote>
I'm no fan of George W. Bush, and still have more than enough legitimate worries about him without the above to add fuel to the fire. I'd already started to write a "My God! This is our President?" sort of response, but I decided to spend some time researching these supposed quotes, because I had a hard time imagining that statements so apparently inflammatory wouldn't have made the top of the evening news had they been true.
The problem of the first quote appears to be one of missing context:
<strong>Woodward says the president told him that when he chairs a meeting he often tries to be provocative. When Woodward asked him if he tells his staff that he is purposely being provocative, Mr. Bush answered: "Of course not. I am the commander, see?"
President Bush: "I do not need to explain why I say things. ? That's the interesting thing about being the President. ? Maybe somebody needs to explain to me why they say something, but I don't feel like I owe anybody an explanation."</strong><hr></blockquote>
Still maybe not a wonderful thing to say, but it's merely about how Bush approaches chairing meetings. Not quite so shocking as it sounds out of context.
The second quote appears to be a misattribution (widely spread now!), mentioned in Bob Woodward's "Bush at War", but not something that Bush himself said:
<strong>Woodward remains uncritical of these CIA agents, and of the Pentagon Special Forces units who later join them. He ends the book with a strange image of a group of them creating a 9/11 memorial in the Afghan mountains. One of the Americans vows, "We will export death and violence to the four corners of the earth in defense of our great nation."</strong><hr></blockquote>
If Bush did utter these words, I get the impression that he did so while he himself was quoting from this memorial. It's still a little scary if Bush reverently quoted these words as something he too believes, but I'd recommend hunting down the book "Bush at War" before jumping to any conclusions from Nth-hand sources on the net.
There are more than enough reasons to dislike Bush without adding misinformation to the mix.
[Edit: About 9 edits later, I may finally have all the wording fixed and UBB syntax errors cleared up!]
got a link for that? i don't recall reading anything about that at all.</strong><hr></blockquote>
I do recall seeing it on FNC a while ago. Of course, if you don't believe in FNC, then I suppose my bringing it to your attention makes no difference. I'm just saying I did see it on a major TV news station. Take it however you will.
[quote]let me repeat that last quote so that it might sink in to some of these so called christians:
"it is harder for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle than it is for a rich man to get into heaven"<hr></blockquote>
My own favorite candidate for Teaching of Jesus Most Ignored by Almost All Who Call Themselves Christian:
[quote]<strong>Beware of practicing your piety before others in order to be seen by them; for then you have no reward from your Father in heaven. So whenever you give alms, do not sound a trumpet before you, as the hypocrites do in the synagogues and in the streets, so that they may be praised by others. Truly I tell you, they have received their reward. But when you give alms, do not let your left hand know what your right hand is doing, so that your alms may be done in secret; and your Father who sees in secret will reward you.
And whenever you pray, do not be like the hypocrites; for they love to stand and pray in the synagogues and at the street corners, so that they may be seen by others. Truly I tell you, they have received their reward. But whenever you pray, go into your room and shut the door and pray to your Father who is in secret; and your Father who sees in secret will reward you. When you are praying, do not heap up empty phrases as the Gentiles do; for they think that they will be heard because of their many words. Do not be like them, for your Father knows what you need before you ask him.
Pray then in this way: Our Father in heaven, hallowed be your name. Your kingdom come. Your will be done, on earth as it is in heaven. Give us this day our daily bread. And forgive us our debts, as we also have forgiven our debtors. And do not bring us to the time of trial, but rescue us from the evil one. For if you forgive others their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you; but if you do not forgive others, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.
And whenever you fast, do not look dismal, like the hypocrites, for they disfigure their faces so as to show others that they are fasting. Truly I tell you, they have received their reward. But when you fast, put oil on your head and wash your face, so that your fasting may be seen not by others but by your Father who is in secret; and your Father who sees in secret will reward you. </strong><hr></blockquote>
Matthew 6, Sermon on the Mount. I was going to just post the first two lines, but the whole thing is just so great. The world would be such a better place if people would just read those lines and let them sink in a bit.
OK SDW, if you are so knowledgeable about some esoterica of Christianity that I have either missed or don't understand, please explain in simple language the common ground shared by the philosophies of George W. Bush and the teachings of Jesus Christ.
I am having huge difficulties reconciling the two positions, which seem 180º apart. I look forward to some enlightenment.
[quote]Originally posted by Samantha Joanne Ollendale:
<strong>
OK SDW, if you are so knowledgeable about some esoterica of Christianity that I have either missed or don't understand, please explain in simple language the common ground shared by the philosophies of George W. Bush and the teachings of Jesus Christ.
I am having huge difficulties reconciling the two positions, which seem 180º apart. I look forward to some enlightenment.</strong><hr></blockquote>
"So knowledgeable"....well I don't know. But I'll try:
It is a common misconception that Christianity rebukes all violence, even killing. It doesn't. Funny enough, the church I attended today focused, in part, on this topic.
Bush believes that
1) Saddam is a threat.
2) Saddam will not disarm peacefully.
3) Someone must disarm him.
Not everyone agrees. Bush believes he is doing this with the greater good in mind...namely ridding the earth of Saddam. I suppose it is fun for his opponents to spew out the tired "No war for oil" and "Bush wants venegence" lines. He knows people will die. That doesn't make his actions "unholy".
On other issues, Bush is guided by a set of principles (as with the Iraq issue). I'd be interested to know what you think he has done that "goes against Christian teachings".
It seems to me that it is quite convenient for one to attack him on this issue simply because one disagrees with many of his positions. It is further disingenous for one to make the charge when one ADMITS she isn't a Christian.
It is a common misconception that Christianity rebukes all violence, even killing. It doesn't. <strong>Funny enough, the church I attended today focused, in part, on this topic. .</strong><hr></blockquote>
Comments
but seriously, some good links there:
I like this quote [quote] The purpose of the prayer in this case is to seek guidance from God directly, in whatever form in which it may be given. God has a will for your life, and it is your job to discover it through direct, one-on-one communication.
Because God doesn't actually talk in direct words as he does in the Bible, one must look for signs or find a feeling of some sort to discover the messages God is trying send. It is hardly surprising that many people who pray this way come away with messages from God that accord remarkably with what they want to do in any case. The difference is that the evangelical often walks with the conviction that his own subjective impressions and choices have been blessed by God Almighty. It's hard to argue with that. <hr></blockquote>
Now it isn't faith that makes me upset it is the kind of faith that has in it the discounting of critical thought (fundamentalism disregards the whole notion of differnt interpretations of textuality) and also which carries with it the arrogance of the "true Believer"
a perspective that discounts critical introspection before it can even occure, because it is thought that this introspection is "deception"
it is arrogant and believes that it can do no wrong.
it also, as the first article makes clear, has nothing to do with Christianity outside of the United States or historically . . . It is a particularly American kind of absolutist arrogant religion that believes that the "saved" can do no wrong because they are 'saved'
[ 03-09-2003: Message edited by: pfflam ]</p>
Hm, perhaps I should add not that I doubt there are freak Christian wierdos like this, rather that these people play the US government like a violin, and that we are all pawns to their vast conspiracy. What do they call themselves, the elders of Zion? I mean, I find the idea that these few have total power over my and your life to be laughable to say the least. These people do not represent the people of the US, they do not set our agenda and we are not pawns in their game. I'm not denying their existence, I denying their influence. God, why the hell do people want to place themselves as victims and pawns and then just bitch and moan about it? If you don't like it, do something about it. What crap. You have a vote.
Oops, there I go again.
[ 03-09-2003: Message edited by: BuonRotto ]</p>
<strong>Perhaps I misunderstood. I tought your conspiracy theory is that Bush and a group of elite evangelical Christian leaders were out to rule the world. This is not what you are saying?</strong><hr></blockquote>no, what I posted is about a group of evangelicas called the Family who ARE expressly in favor of world domination by them and their people
they have enormous political power, groups of politicians take part in their annual Prayer Breakfast
To what extent that means that these politicians share their ideology is not exactly clear
but it does seem that many do share it
AND
yes that ideaology IS in many many ways EXACTLY like that of ISLAMISTS
except the Family viels its hatred . . . though it still hates it just calls those against its ways 'wicked' and 'deceived'.
[ 03-09-2003: Message edited by: pfflam ]</p>
<strong>I have always liked Blix and given his reports to the Security Council. But this kind of disturbs me.
He added that Iraqi scientists could find "more elegant ways" of approaching UN inspectors.
That does show a bit of ignorance and cold-heartedness. The guy was saying "save me!" not "i have useful information!".</strong><hr></blockquote>
Having read the above in context, I don't think this was meant in some cold-hearted "Well, this peon should have approached me more elegantly" kind of way. I get the impression Blix was merely saying that is was unlikely that the man was an Iraqi scientist, because if he had been a scientist, he would have had better avenues for approaching the inspectors, or getting a message to them, than than running screaming into a car.
<strong>Perhaps I misunderstood. I tought your conspiracy theory is that Bush and a group of elite evangelical Christian leaders were out to rule the world. This is not what you are saying?
Hm, perhaps I should add not that I doubt there are freak Christian wierdos like this, rather that these people play the US government like a violin, and that we are all pawns to their vast conspiracy. What do they call themselves, the elders of Zion? I mean, I find the idea that these few have total power over my and your life to be laughable to say the least. These people do not represent the people of the US, they do not set our agenda and we are not pawns in their game. I'm not denying their existence, I denying their influence. God, why the hell do people want to place themselves as victims and pawns and then just bitch and moan about it? If you don't like it, do something about it. What crap. You have a vote.
Oops, there I go again.
[ 03-09-2003: Message edited by: BuonRotto ]</strong><hr></blockquote>Yes, seriously, ooops
I never said I was a victim. I am not saying that these people are pulling all the strings.
Its not anything like the "elders of Zion" but you probably didn't read a damn word you probably saw that I was pointing out this group, saying that they do in fact wield power, and that, yes their goal is to remain "behind the scenes" (from their own mouths) and you assumed this is some out-to-lunch wacko theory
If you think this is wacko you better think again, these people are real and not very hidden, and yes, they want to control you . . . best way to stop that from happening is to show what their real motivations are: such as in the Youth Corps which seems all above boards but is a vehicle for signing people onto the 'Christian Revolution'
just look a little, it doesn't take much, for instance that post from a well respected Christian web site that calls the "Family" a group that wants to remain covert . . . . are they being conspiracists or are they merely saying what is plainly known . . . .they want to avoid Press, and scrutiny, and have a strategy to do so that entails structuring their organization in cells
I wouldn't deny their influence when politicians are crawling over each other to talk at their National Prayer Breakfast . . . like Bush did recently . . .
[ 03-09-2003: Message edited by: pfflam ]</p>
I was about to re-revise my message to say that those links are eexactly the srt of thing we are fighting in fundamental Islam. We can't let this be a religious war. At least I don't consider a war againsr Islam, just intolerent kooks like Bin Laden and so forth. Anyhoo, this has gotten entire off tiopic. Again, my apologies.
<strong>Two things could be happening when Bush announces he is "praying for guidance"
1. He is pandering to the constituency that would buy this revolting piece of crap and its implied attitudes:
or worse yet:
2. He actually thinks with this kind of sentiment</strong><hr></blockquote>
Oh. Oh. I'm in pain.
I figured the above image just had to be a parody. Just had to be. I thought to myself "Let's follow the link for this image, and see what other funny satirical stuff might be found."
But... it's... it's not satire! It's real! That image is apparently meant for the consumption of individuals who actually are capable of digesting such treacly overwrought sentimentality, who identify with and are inspired by this simultaneously naive and zealous vision of spirituality.
We live in a scary world.
Until I re-read it and the following posts.
I just don't get this "Bush being a Christian" thing at all. Judging by the policies of his administration, the following qualities are apparent: elitism, greed, materialism, privilege, duplicity, arrogance, bribery, lust for power etc etc.
Christianity, at least the variety as taught by Jesus Christ, is the polar opposite of where the Bush policies stand. I'm not a practising Christian, but I find it hard to acknowledge that Christianity in the 21st century is a totally different deal from the values Jesus taught some 2000 years back. Why does Bush have to hide his real intent behind some phoney "Christian" front to make his hardline ideas look compassionate?
<strong>Forget the "Bush = armageddonist" theory for a bit, which is where some people on all sides of the political fence feel that Bush is spiritually situated.
I just don't get this "Bush being a Christian" thing at all. Judging by the policies of his administration, the following qualities are apparent: elitism, greed, materialism, privilege, duplicity, arrogance, bribery, lust for power etc etc.
Christianity, at least the variety as taught by Jesus Christ, is the polar opposite of where the Bush policies stand. I'm not a practising Christian, but I find it hard to acknowledge that Christianity in the 21st century is a totally different deal from the values Jesus taught some 2000 years back. Why does Bush have to hide his real intent behind some phoney "Christian" front to make his hardline ideas look compassionate?</strong><hr></blockquote>Sounds like Bush bashing and will therfore be dismissed by Bush-lovers . . .
but,If you look at the group that i discussed they are exactly that, an elitist, power hungry group of christians that hold no merit in the quote that 'a rich man has a harder time entering heaven than a camel does passing through the eye of a needle.
let me repeat that last quote so that it might sink in to some of these so called christians:
"it is harder for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle than it is for a rich man to get into heaven"
. . . . gosh darnit that sounds like a poverty pimpin Liberal
who said that must be wicked!!!!
[ 03-09-2003: Message edited by: pfflam ]</p>
[quote] I just don't get this "Bush being a Christian" thing at all. <hr></blockquote>
That's apparent.
<strong><a href="http://www.amconmag.com/01_13_03/geyer7.html"; target="_blank">http://www.amconmag.com/01_13_03/geyer7.html</a></strong><hr></blockquote>;
At first I was really worried about a couple of things from the above link...
[quote]Originally stated by George W. Bush, talking to Bob Woodward:
<strong>I'm the commander ? see, I don't need to explain ? I do not need to explain why I say things. That's the interesting thing about being the president. Maybe somebody needs to explain to me why they say something, but I don't feel like I owe anybody an explanation.</strong><hr></blockquote>
And further...
[quote]
<strong>We will export death and violence to the four corners of the earth in defense of our great nation.</strong><hr></blockquote>
I'm no fan of George W. Bush, and still have more than enough legitimate worries about him without the above to add fuel to the fire. I'd already started to write a "My God! This is our President?" sort of response, but I decided to spend some time researching these supposed quotes, because I had a hard time imagining that statements so apparently inflammatory wouldn't have made the top of the evening news had they been true.
The problem of the first quote appears to be one of missing context:
[quote]From <a href="http://cbsnewyork.com/rooney/sixtyminutes_story_321200143.html"; target="_blank">http://cbsnewyork.com/rooney/sixtyminutes_story_321200143.html</A>; :
<strong>Woodward says the president told him that when he chairs a meeting he often tries to be provocative. When Woodward asked him if he tells his staff that he is purposely being provocative, Mr. Bush answered: "Of course not. I am the commander, see?"
President Bush: "I do not need to explain why I say things. ? That's the interesting thing about being the President. ? Maybe somebody needs to explain to me why they say something, but I don't feel like I owe anybody an explanation."</strong><hr></blockquote>
Still maybe not a wonderful thing to say, but it's merely about how Bush approaches chairing meetings. Not quite so shocking as it sounds out of context.
The second quote appears to be a misattribution (widely spread now!), mentioned in Bob Woodward's "Bush at War", but not something that Bush himself said:
[quote]From <a href="http://www.alternet.org/story.html?StoryID=14890"; target="_blank">http://www.alternet.org/story.html?StoryID=14890</A>; :
<strong>Woodward remains uncritical of these CIA agents, and of the Pentagon Special Forces units who later join them. He ends the book with a strange image of a group of them creating a 9/11 memorial in the Afghan mountains. One of the Americans vows, "We will export death and violence to the four corners of the earth in defense of our great nation."</strong><hr></blockquote>
If Bush did utter these words, I get the impression that he did so while he himself was quoting from this memorial. It's still a little scary if Bush reverently quoted these words as something he too believes, but I'd recommend hunting down the book "Bush at War" before jumping to any conclusions from Nth-hand sources on the net.
There are more than enough reasons to dislike Bush without adding misinformation to the mix.
[Edit: About 9 edits later, I may finally have all the wording fixed and UBB syntax errors cleared up!]
[ 03-09-2003: Message edited by: shetline ]</p>
<strong>
got a link for that? i don't recall reading anything about that at all.</strong><hr></blockquote>
I do recall seeing it on FNC a while ago. Of course, if you don't believe in FNC, then I suppose my bringing it to your attention makes no difference. I'm just saying I did see it on a major TV news station. Take it however you will.
"it is harder for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle than it is for a rich man to get into heaven"<hr></blockquote>
My own favorite candidate for Teaching of Jesus Most Ignored by Almost All Who Call Themselves Christian:
[quote]<strong>Beware of practicing your piety before others in order to be seen by them; for then you have no reward from your Father in heaven. So whenever you give alms, do not sound a trumpet before you, as the hypocrites do in the synagogues and in the streets, so that they may be praised by others. Truly I tell you, they have received their reward. But when you give alms, do not let your left hand know what your right hand is doing, so that your alms may be done in secret; and your Father who sees in secret will reward you.
And whenever you pray, do not be like the hypocrites; for they love to stand and pray in the synagogues and at the street corners, so that they may be seen by others. Truly I tell you, they have received their reward. But whenever you pray, go into your room and shut the door and pray to your Father who is in secret; and your Father who sees in secret will reward you. When you are praying, do not heap up empty phrases as the Gentiles do; for they think that they will be heard because of their many words. Do not be like them, for your Father knows what you need before you ask him.
Pray then in this way: Our Father in heaven, hallowed be your name. Your kingdom come. Your will be done, on earth as it is in heaven. Give us this day our daily bread. And forgive us our debts, as we also have forgiven our debtors. And do not bring us to the time of trial, but rescue us from the evil one. For if you forgive others their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you; but if you do not forgive others, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.
And whenever you fast, do not look dismal, like the hypocrites, for they disfigure their faces so as to show others that they are fasting. Truly I tell you, they have received their reward. But when you fast, put oil on your head and wash your face, so that your fasting may be seen not by others but by your Father who is in secret; and your Father who sees in secret will reward you. </strong><hr></blockquote>
Matthew 6, Sermon on the Mount. I was going to just post the first two lines, but the whole thing is just so great. The world would be such a better place if people would just read those lines and let them sink in a bit.
[/offtopic]
[ 03-09-2003: Message edited by: Towel ]</p>
<strong>SJO:
That's apparent.</strong><hr></blockquote>
OK SDW, if you are so knowledgeable about some esoterica of Christianity that I have either missed or don't understand, please explain in simple language the common ground shared by the philosophies of George W. Bush and the teachings of Jesus Christ.
I am having huge difficulties reconciling the two positions, which seem 180º apart. I look forward to some enlightenment.
<strong>
OK SDW, if you are so knowledgeable about some esoterica of Christianity that I have either missed or don't understand, please explain in simple language the common ground shared by the philosophies of George W. Bush and the teachings of Jesus Christ.
I am having huge difficulties reconciling the two positions, which seem 180º apart. I look forward to some enlightenment.</strong><hr></blockquote>
"So knowledgeable"....well I don't know. But I'll try:
It is a common misconception that Christianity rebukes all violence, even killing. It doesn't. Funny enough, the church I attended today focused, in part, on this topic.
Bush believes that
1) Saddam is a threat.
2) Saddam will not disarm peacefully.
3) Someone must disarm him.
Not everyone agrees. Bush believes he is doing this with the greater good in mind...namely ridding the earth of Saddam. I suppose it is fun for his opponents to spew out the tired "No war for oil" and "Bush wants venegence" lines. He knows people will die. That doesn't make his actions "unholy".
On other issues, Bush is guided by a set of principles (as with the Iraq issue). I'd be interested to know what you think he has done that "goes against Christian teachings".
It seems to me that it is quite convenient for one to attack him on this issue simply because one disagrees with many of his positions. It is further disingenous for one to make the charge when one ADMITS she isn't a Christian.
It is a common misconception that Christianity rebukes all violence, even killing. It doesn't. <strong>Funny enough, the church I attended today focused, in part, on this topic. .</strong><hr></blockquote>
Somehow that does not surprise me at all.
.
.
So many Christians so few Christians
thread
ever