Just so, it was just announced. Calm down. You are making the statement of what it is. I don't know what it is and what it isn't yet. I'm waiting to find out.
I said "sounds like a Momentus XT" It does.
Have you used it? Had you hands on it? Read the reviews of the testers? Its strengths and limitations? Form factor? What if anything else it can be adapted to?
Bare Feats doesn't appear to know what it is or what it isn't yet. iFixit has no tear down review yet. How is it you are so adamant what it is and what it isn't yet?
No, it doesn't sound anything like a hybrid HDD. If anything could be compared to it would be a massive evolution of MS's ReadyBoost that first appeared in Vista.
So where again did Fusion Drive already exist in Mac OS X that made this is a stupid and pointless reinvention of the wheel?
PS: I know what it isn't because I read about it instead of just making a kneejerk comments about how Apple is reinventing the wheel and claiming that some NAND caching on a HDD is the same as two separate drives working as a RAID with the SSD also acting as NAND cache is the same lackluster product we've seen from HDD makers. Apple clearly explained many of the details if you only paid attention.
Because if its an OS independent hybrid drive that comes in a standard form factor, a commodity item, it could be used to upgrade other machines.
IF YOU WANT A FUCKING HYBRID DRVE INSTALL A FUCKING HYBRID DRIVE. APPLE DOESN'T HAVE TO PUT ONE IN YOUR HANDS FOR YOU TO BE ABLE TO USE ONE IN YOUR MAC. IF YOU CAN"T FIGURE HOW TO BUY ONE ONLINE THEN YOU SURELY CAN"T FIGURE OUT HOW TO HAVE ONE INSTALLED.
You're making me laugh now. LOL Get a grip. I am a parts person. A builder. An upgrader. I shop for parts all over the place. You want to see my parts bill for the last year?
Reinventing the wheel = Taking a commodity connector or part which in reality does nothing more or less than a standard form factor and remaking it so it can only be used in the model it was delivered in or connecting to the Apple specific device it was designed for. ie: The ADC
Now YOU described this drive as a standard form factor self contained unit functioning via its own firmware. Which more or less describes a drive unit like the Momentus XT with more flash memory. Its functional operation sounds to me like an XT with more flash memory. I do not know if that is the case or not, nor do I think you have any basis at this moment of time for making that or any other assertion.
Just so, it was just announced. Calm down. You are making the statement of what it is. I don't know what it is and what it isn't yet. I'm waiting to find out.
I said "sounds like a Momentus XT" It does.
Have you used it? Had you hands on it? Read the reviews of the testers? Its strengths and limitations? Form factor? What if anything else it can be adapted to?
Bare Feats doesn't appear to know what it is or what it isn't yet. iFixit has no tear down review yet. How is it you are so adamant what it is and what it isn't yet?
It appears to be the same blade SSD seen in the Air and MBP combined with a standard hard drive. They are used as a single drive though.
The caching means that one of the slowest actions standard hard drives do (random writes) should go much faster. They can write many small files to a fast cache and then sync it to the main drive without slowing down the user.
The SSD having the OS and apps installed already immediately gives users fast performance and for a lot of people, they might never have more than 128GB of files so their experience should be as good as using an SSD.
Devices like the Seagate Hybrid only have 4-16GB of flash memory so don't offer anywhere near the benefit of 128GB SSD.
except you don't have to set it up yourself (driver installs etc) and Intel's is limited to 64GB.
There are limitations with Apple's one too though. It only supports one extra partition and Bootcamp isn't supported at all on the 3TB version.
As for using the solution in another machine, they could have built it as a single drive but it would have been a non-standard form factor. Hybrid drives only have a small cache. Plus, you might be able to use the SSD blade with an adaptor (mSATA to SATA) and enable Intel's SRT.
It appears to be the same blade SSD seen in the Air and MBP combined with a standard hard drive. They are used as a single drive though.
The caching means that one of the slowest actions standard hard drives do (random writes) should go much faster. They can write many small files to a fast cache and then sync it to the main drive without slowing down the user.
The SSD having the OS and apps installed already immediately gives users fast performance and for a lot of people, they might never have more than 128GB of files so their experience should be as good as using an SSD.
Devices like the Seagate Hybrid only have 4-16GB of flash memory so don't offer anywhere near the benefit of 128GB SSD.
except you don't have to set it up yourself (driver installs etc) and Intel's is limited to 64GB.
There are limitations with Apple's one too though. It only supports one extra partition and Bootcamp isn't supported at all on the 3TB version.
As for using the solution in another machine, they could have built it as a single drive but it would have been a non-standard form factor. Hybrid drives only have a small cache. Plus, you might be able to use the SSD blade with an adaptor (mSATA to SATA) and enable Intel's SRT.
Thank you! Now we are getting somewhere. So its two separate physical parts joined as a single volume via software. A proprietary non commodity item. All I wanted to know.
IF YOU WANT A FUCKING HYBRID DRVE INSTALL A FUCKING HYBRID DRIVE. APPLE DOESN'T HAVE TO PUT ONE IN YOUR HANDS FOR YOU TO BE ABLE TO USE ONE IN YOUR MAC. IF YOU CAN"T FIGURE HOW TO BUY ONE ONLINE THEN YOU SURELY CAN"T FIGURE OUT HOW TO HAVE ONE INSTALLED.
As an FYI ... I already have a 512 SSD in my MBP. Which I bought and put in myself without paying Apples highway robbery prices. (Oh ..did I mention I got my A+ and MCSE Cert both back in the dinosaur age?) It works great thanks.
Thank you! Now we are getting somewhere. So its two separate physical parts joined as a single volume via software. A proprietary non commodity item. All I wanted to know.
1) So you went off half-cocked about how it's just like the Momentus XT without actually looking it up, reading anything about it, or listening to a goddamn thing in this article and thread? For fucks sake man!
2) Also, as previous stated, it's OS level so your whining about it being proprietary means you are complaining about their OS being proprietary. However it's odd that you haven't once cried foul that Seagate's implementation isn't propriety.
[quote name="Marvin" url="/t/153689/apples-new-fusion-drive-debuts-in-latest-imacs-mac-minis/80#post_2220983"]Devices like the Seagate Hybrid only have 4-16GB of flash memory so don't offer anywhere near the benefit of 128GB SSD[/QUOTE]
Or the controller to speed up the operation to SSD speeds minus overhead. I have read about hybrids HDDs with actual SSDs attached, not just NAND for faster performance but I've never read about any actually in production at this point. What MS and Apple are doing looks to be a more well rounded and better option for storage, cost and overall drive performance.
Well you are clearly way smarter than I am at posting on AppleInsider.
I still think you are wrong in thinking you can outsmart the software/firmware and do a better job of managing the SSD vs. HDD in a new iMac or Mini.
As you seem to think your modification of your MBP is the model of performance tweak, I suppose I'll share my mod as well: my older MacMini that came with a DVD drive was getting long in the tooth, so I got a couple of SSDs & an OWC mounting kit to replace the DVD & HDD drive with a the SSDs. I then RAIDed them together into a striped volume. It's pretty nice and I kept my iTunes on this setup for a while (until I replaced the Mini with a newer model). It performed well, but I knew that there were playlists I listened to often enough to be worth putting on the SSD just to save wear & tear on the HHD not to mention power consumption, but of course, with all my media living on external disks, it was impractical to move only the commonly used files to the SSD.
A 3TB Fusion drive would not just place my OS & Apps on the SSD, but also my most commonly accessed media, and anything else I might not think of that is accessed frequently, I don't know about you, but this is exactly the kind of thing that the machine should handle, not me!
On my iMac where I do my freelance graphic & phot work its doubly true. I don't want to have to manually move projects to the inactive, HDD storage as I complete them. I want the Mac to just figure out the project I've worked on everyday this week should be moved to SSD storage. In fCt, every new file should start life on the SSD & move to HDD if not accessed again soon. Then when my current project has been inactive for a time, the next active project will take its place on the SSD automagically.
I am sure the auto system Apple have is going to be fantastic for many however there are some pretty obvious limitations for video when capturing long HD video clips and editing them in a system that only has a 128 GIG SSD and a 5400 rpm HDD no matter how clever the AI is at where data goes. Obviously in a Mac Pro I used RAID and 7200 RPM drives but more and more folks are using iMacs and MacBook Pros with FCPro X including myself and that's my concern for this. For that a custom set up seems better suited. I think this drive is excellent for average users. The truth of course is this is a stop gap until 1 and 2 TB SSDs are $100 a TB and what would be really nice ... have a at least one that's hot swappable (i.e. in addition to the system boot drive.).
1) So you went off half-cocked about how it's just like the Momentus XT without actually looking it up, reading anything about it, or listening to a goddamn thing in this article and thread? For fucks sake man!
2) Also, as previous stated, it's OS level so your whining about it being proprietary means you are complaining about their OS being proprietary. However it's odd that you haven't once cried foul that Seagate's implementation isn't propriety.
For all your noise and bru-ha--ha, it is essentially like a Momentus XT. Which uses an algorithm to save commonly used files on flash. The only real difference is the capacity of the flash. What distinguishes a proprietary item from a commondity item in context is whether or not the part is available on the open market from a variety of vendors and/or interchangeable with other units.
Apple apologists are just as fanatically unrealistic and tunnel visioned as MS apologists. They always overlook those profits and profit margins come out of your pocket.
There never was any real difference between an Apple or a PC floppy drive other than the software eject for which the Apple floppy drive cost three times as much. Dating back to the special screws they used on the original Mac to keep the owners from getting into the case. Which they still do. Processor Direct Slots. Remember those? Video connectors. Serial cable connectors. The list is a long one that either you are not aware of or or simply turn a blind eye to. That's your issue. not mine.
For all your noise and bru-ha--ha, it is essentially like a Momentus XT. Which uses an algorithm to save commonly used files on flash. The only real difference is the capacity of the flash. What distinguishes a proprietary item from a commondity item in context is whether or not the part is available on the open market from a variety of vendors and/or interchangeable with other units.
Apple apologists are just as fanatically unrealistic and tunnel visioned as MS apologists. They always overlook those profits and profit margins come out of your pocket.
There never was any real difference between an Apple or a PC floppy drive other than the software eject for which the Apple floppy drive cost three times as much. Dating back to the special screws they used on the original Mac to keep the owners from getting into the case. Which they still do. Processor Direct Slots. Remember those? Video connectors. Serial cable connectors. The list is a long one that either you are not aware of or or simply turn a blind eye to. That's your issue. not mine.
1) You mean the many clear explanations that you ignored.
2) So now all algorithms are the same, regardless of where or how they are implemented. That's right, Apple has never had done anything on their own¡
3) Yes, anyone who says that Fusion Drive is not the same as NAND caching on a HDD is an Apple apologist, even after they compare it to ReadyBoost released in 2006 on Vista¡
4) Again, you're either choosing not to understand or just trolling to say a sub-OS system is the same as an integrated OS level understanding of what lies will benefit from loading from an SSD and/or caching.
5) No fucking idea why you mean by Apple floppy drives as it's something I, and the rest of the world, have forgotten long ago. PS: Disco is dead.
6) It's great that you can build your HW with "commodity parts" that have absolutely no way for being optimized for a specific task or OS. How is that homemade notebook PC, smartphone, an tablet working out for you?
7) Thank for calling yourself a Dinosaur. I wasn't going to make a personal attack but since you seem to be aware of that 'one' thing, well..,
2) Also, as previous stated, it's OS level so your whining about it being proprietary means you are complaining about their OS being proprietary. However it's odd that you haven't once cried foul that Seagate's implementation isn't propriety.
Given it's using features in CoreStorage it's like complaining about features of the file system not being present on other OS's.
Honestly, I'd much rather have the data integrity features from zfs and manage my own ssd/hdd allocations but I guess most folks prefer speed over integrity.
I read in some review somewhere, I forget where, that the new 27" iMac's Fusion drive option would have a 256GB SSD. Is that correct?
I believe the minimum you can order is 128GB with a maximum size of 768GB. I assume they'll have at least one other size in between but 128, 256, 512 and 768 seem more likely.
Comments
No, it doesn't sound anything like a hybrid HDD. If anything could be compared to it would be a massive evolution of MS's ReadyBoost that first appeared in Vista.
So where again did Fusion Drive already exist in Mac OS X that made this is a stupid and pointless reinvention of the wheel?
PS: I know what it isn't because I read about it instead of just making a kneejerk comments about how Apple is reinventing the wheel and claiming that some NAND caching on a HDD is the same as two separate drives working as a RAID with the SSD also acting as NAND cache is the same lackluster product we've seen from HDD makers. Apple clearly explained many of the details if you only paid attention.
Because if its an OS independent hybrid drive that comes in a standard form factor, a commodity item, it could be used to upgrade other machines.
IF YOU WANT A FUCKING HYBRID DRVE INSTALL A FUCKING HYBRID DRIVE. APPLE DOESN'T HAVE TO PUT ONE IN YOUR HANDS FOR YOU TO BE ABLE TO USE ONE IN YOUR MAC. IF YOU CAN"T FIGURE HOW TO BUY ONE ONLINE THEN YOU SURELY CAN"T FIGURE OUT HOW TO HAVE ONE INSTALLED.
You're making me laugh now. LOL Get a grip. I am a parts person. A builder. An upgrader. I shop for parts all over the place. You want to see my parts bill for the last year?
Reinventing the wheel = Taking a commodity connector or part which in reality does nothing more or less than a standard form factor and remaking it so it can only be used in the model it was delivered in or connecting to the Apple specific device it was designed for. ie: The ADC
Now YOU described this drive as a standard form factor self contained unit functioning via its own firmware. Which more or less describes a drive unit like the Momentus XT with more flash memory. Its functional operation sounds to me like an XT with more flash memory. I do not know if that is the case or not, nor do I think you have any basis at this moment of time for making that or any other assertion.
We really have to wait and find out.
We now know your feigned ignorance is you trolling. My fault for thinking you were actually curious. My mistake. You win.
There was a link posted earlier:
http://www.anandtech.com/show/6406/understanding-apples-fusion-drive
It appears to be the same blade SSD seen in the Air and MBP combined with a standard hard drive. They are used as a single drive though.
The caching means that one of the slowest actions standard hard drives do (random writes) should go much faster. They can write many small files to a fast cache and then sync it to the main drive without slowing down the user.
The SSD having the OS and apps installed already immediately gives users fast performance and for a lot of people, they might never have more than 128GB of files so their experience should be as good as using an SSD.
Devices like the Seagate Hybrid only have 4-16GB of flash memory so don't offer anywhere near the benefit of 128GB SSD.
It's more like Intel's SRT:
http://www.pcworld.com/article/248828/how_to_setup_intel_smart_response_ssd_caching_technology.html
except you don't have to set it up yourself (driver installs etc) and Intel's is limited to 64GB.
There are limitations with Apple's one too though. It only supports one extra partition and Bootcamp isn't supported at all on the 3TB version.
As for using the solution in another machine, they could have built it as a single drive but it would have been a non-standard form factor. Hybrid drives only have a small cache. Plus, you might be able to use the SSD blade with an adaptor (mSATA to SATA) and enable Intel's SRT.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Marvin
There was a link posted earlier:
http://www.anandtech.com/show/6406/understanding-apples-fusion-drive
It appears to be the same blade SSD seen in the Air and MBP combined with a standard hard drive. They are used as a single drive though.
The caching means that one of the slowest actions standard hard drives do (random writes) should go much faster. They can write many small files to a fast cache and then sync it to the main drive without slowing down the user.
The SSD having the OS and apps installed already immediately gives users fast performance and for a lot of people, they might never have more than 128GB of files so their experience should be as good as using an SSD.
Devices like the Seagate Hybrid only have 4-16GB of flash memory so don't offer anywhere near the benefit of 128GB SSD.
It's more like Intel's SRT:
http://www.pcworld.com/article/248828/how_to_setup_intel_smart_response_ssd_caching_technology.html
except you don't have to set it up yourself (driver installs etc) and Intel's is limited to 64GB.
There are limitations with Apple's one too though. It only supports one extra partition and Bootcamp isn't supported at all on the 3TB version.
As for using the solution in another machine, they could have built it as a single drive but it would have been a non-standard form factor. Hybrid drives only have a small cache. Plus, you might be able to use the SSD blade with an adaptor (mSATA to SATA) and enable Intel's SRT.
Thank you! Now we are getting somewhere. So its two separate physical parts joined as a single volume via software. A proprietary non commodity item. All I wanted to know.
Quote:
Originally Posted by SolipsismX
IF YOU WANT A FUCKING HYBRID DRVE INSTALL A FUCKING HYBRID DRIVE. APPLE DOESN'T HAVE TO PUT ONE IN YOUR HANDS FOR YOU TO BE ABLE TO USE ONE IN YOUR MAC. IF YOU CAN"T FIGURE HOW TO BUY ONE ONLINE THEN YOU SURELY CAN"T FIGURE OUT HOW TO HAVE ONE INSTALLED.
As an FYI ... I already have a 512 SSD in my MBP. Which I bought and put in myself without paying Apples highway robbery prices. (Oh ..did I mention I got my A+ and MCSE Cert both back in the dinosaur age?) It works great thanks.
1) So you went off half-cocked about how it's just like the Momentus XT without actually looking it up, reading anything about it, or listening to a goddamn thing in this article and thread? For fucks sake man!
2) Also, as previous stated, it's OS level so your whining about it being proprietary means you are complaining about their OS being proprietary. However it's odd that you haven't once cried foul that Seagate's implementation isn't propriety.
Or the controller to speed up the operation to SSD speeds minus overhead. I have read about hybrids HDDs with actual SSDs attached, not just NAND for faster performance but I've never read about any actually in production at this point. What MS and Apple are doing looks to be a more well rounded and better option for storage, cost and overall drive performance.
I am sure the auto system Apple have is going to be fantastic for many however there are some pretty obvious limitations for video when capturing long HD video clips and editing them in a system that only has a 128 GIG SSD and a 5400 rpm HDD no matter how clever the AI is at where data goes. Obviously in a Mac Pro I used RAID and 7200 RPM drives but more and more folks are using iMacs and MacBook Pros with FCPro X including myself and that's my concern for this. For that a custom set up seems better suited. I think this drive is excellent for average users. The truth of course is this is a stop gap until 1 and 2 TB SSDs are $100 a TB and what would be really nice ... have a at least one that's hot swappable (i.e. in addition to the system boot drive.).
Problem solved.
Quote:
Originally Posted by nht
If the troll wants a machine made from commodity parts he can buy a Dell.
Problem solved.
If you are referring to me, I build my own thanks.
Quote:
Originally Posted by SolipsismX
1) So you went off half-cocked about how it's just like the Momentus XT without actually looking it up, reading anything about it, or listening to a goddamn thing in this article and thread? For fucks sake man!
2) Also, as previous stated, it's OS level so your whining about it being proprietary means you are complaining about their OS being proprietary. However it's odd that you haven't once cried foul that Seagate's implementation isn't propriety.
For all your noise and bru-ha--ha, it is essentially like a Momentus XT. Which uses an algorithm to save commonly used files on flash. The only real difference is the capacity of the flash. What distinguishes a proprietary item from a commondity item in context is whether or not the part is available on the open market from a variety of vendors and/or interchangeable with other units.
Apple apologists are just as fanatically unrealistic and tunnel visioned as MS apologists. They always overlook those profits and profit margins come out of your pocket.
There never was any real difference between an Apple or a PC floppy drive other than the software eject for which the Apple floppy drive cost three times as much. Dating back to the special screws they used on the original Mac to keep the owners from getting into the case. Which they still do. Processor Direct Slots. Remember those? Video connectors. Serial cable connectors. The list is a long one that either you are not aware of or or simply turn a blind eye to. That's your issue. not mine.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gary54
If you are referring to me, I build my own thanks.
So you're here why? Ah right...blocked.
1) You mean the many clear explanations that you ignored.
2) So now all algorithms are the same, regardless of where or how they are implemented. That's right, Apple has never had done anything on their own¡
3) Yes, anyone who says that Fusion Drive is not the same as NAND caching on a HDD is an Apple apologist, even after they compare it to ReadyBoost released in 2006 on Vista¡
4) Again, you're either choosing not to understand or just trolling to say a sub-OS system is the same as an integrated OS level understanding of what lies will benefit from loading from an SSD and/or caching.
5) No fucking idea why you mean by Apple floppy drives as it's something I, and the rest of the world, have forgotten long ago. PS: Disco is dead.
6) It's great that you can build your HW with "commodity parts" that have absolutely no way for being optimized for a specific task or OS. How is that homemade notebook PC, smartphone, an tablet working out for you?
7) Thank for calling yourself a Dinosaur. I wasn't going to make a personal attack but since you seem to be aware of that 'one' thing, well..,
Quote:
Originally Posted by SolipsismX
2) Also, as previous stated, it's OS level so your whining about it being proprietary means you are complaining about their OS being proprietary. However it's odd that you haven't once cried foul that Seagate's implementation isn't propriety.
Given it's using features in CoreStorage it's like complaining about features of the file system not being present on other OS's.
Honestly, I'd much rather have the data integrity features from zfs and manage my own ssd/hdd allocations but I guess most folks prefer speed over integrity.
Quote:
Originally Posted by SolipsismX
7) Thank for calling yourself a Dinosaur. I wasn't going to make a personal attack...
8) Or you could stop being pissed about a troll and drop him into your blocked list...
I read in some review somewhere, I forget where, that the new 27" iMac's Fusion drive option would have a 256GB SSD. Is that correct?
I believe the minimum you can order is 128GB with a maximum size of 768GB. I assume they'll have at least one other size in between but 128, 256, 512 and 768 seem more likely.