I have noticed stuff like this for a while now from Google. One of my apps has a fairly unique name and a few million downloads and doesn't even appear on the first page in Google. Whereas Blekko come up number one as it should.
Well if the android version is closer to the top/front, the naive user would think the app is only for android. Google makes money on ads. The more pages, the more ads, the better chance of user clicking an ad.
Are you suggesting that Google wants popular results to be several pages deep? Does that not contradict the entire basis for their success in the web search industry? They got to the top by giving relevant results. Users would stop using Google if it didn't provide them with the best results first, so it's entirely within their future interest to keep users happy, even if it comes at the expense of showing fewer ads immediately.
I think Google was up to something but the results were a little more extreme than they expected. I have no doubts that Google modifies search results to bring their own products up sooner (or those of paid advertisers). They have also been investigated for this. I also noticed this with Youtube where I searched for a video I know exists but can't seem to find on my iPhone when the exact same search terms entered on my browser finds it right away.
This tells me that Google has some sort of internal software system where they can "adjust" results. They can't re-write their search algorithms on the fly, so they must have a set of rules they can modify to alter results as they see fit. Come to think of it, I know for a fact they have this ability. They have, for example, down ranked sites that deal in pirated materials.
I think perhaps an over zealous employee might have been doing some "fine tuning" in regards to Apple and by accident (or maybe on purpose) it caused a huge drop in iTunes rankings when the "desired" result was to make a slight adjustment.
I think Google was up to something but the results were a little more extreme than they expected. I have no doubts that Google modifies search results to bring their own products up sooner (or those of paid advertisers). They have also been investigated for this. I also noticed this with Youtube where I searched for a video I know exists but can't seem to find on my iPhone when the exact same search terms entered on my browser finds it right away.
This tells me that Google has some sort of internal software system where they can "adjust" results. They can't re-write their search algorithms on the fly, so they must have a set of rules they can modify to alter results as they see fit. Come to think of it, I know for a fact they have this ability. They have, for example, down ranked sites that deal in pirated materials.
I think perhaps an over zealous employee might have been doing some "fine tuning" in regards to Apple and by accident (or maybe on purpose) it caused a huge drop in iTunes rankings when the "desired" result was to make a slight adjustment.
4) Again, Google doesn't benefit from this gaffe. In every possible way it hurts them.
So if something happens to Google and doesn't simultaneously happen to Microsoft then Google is lying? How the **** does that make sense?
I don't think your #4 is correct, or at least not a full picture. I think we saw in the 90s that greed and short-sightedness can make a company do bad things for their users that seem to benefit the company's bottom line. Maybe that happened here, maybe it didn't. But I can imagine a world in which Google manipulates its search results to help Android and/or hurt Apple.
Since the article and Google's statement implies Apple is to blame for some of these issues, it is weird and somewhat fishy that Bing isn't also affected. Again, I am not necessarily saying Larry Page is a "Mr. Burns" character. But it certainly would not surprise me that a company that makes billions of dollars a year off watching what you do on the Internet and then serving you ads based on that history would do some shady shit.
You are so quick to discharge any hypothesis if there isn't a mountain of verifiable proof to back it up but now you're claiming it was done maliciously by Google. Does not compute!
Consider what you're suggesting. Google had some meeting where they conspired to make anything by Apple not sure up for several pages just to reverse that a few hours later. Do you think they didn't expect anyone to notice that one of the most heavily searched for domain names and products on the internet was coming up with bad results? Do you think Google expected the world to suddenly forget Apple, the tech company with the most mindshare, to be instantly forgotten? They rely on their searches to be accurate and if they are not they can lose that position to competitors. If they put anything about Apple several pages back people would go to other engines, not stop buying and using Apple's products. No matter what the scenario this hurts Google.
Google devalues sites all the time for several reasons. This is a daily thing by Google and is well known and documented in the SEO world. (BTW, this is not a dup content issue) So this might not have been the top ranks making this happen, or it could have been.
I think Google was up to something but the results were a little more extreme than they expected. I have no doubts that Google modifies search results to bring their own products up sooner (or those of paid advertisers). They have also been investigated for this. I also noticed this with Youtube where I searched for a video I know exists but can't seem to find on my iPhone when the exact same search terms entered on my browser finds it right away.
This tells me that Google has some sort of internal software system where they can "adjust" results. They can't re-write their search algorithms on the fly, so they must have a set of rules they can modify to alter results as they see fit. Come to think of it, I know for a fact they have this ability. They have, for example, down ranked sites that deal in pirated materials.
I think perhaps an over zealous employee might have been doing some "fine tuning" in regards to Apple and by accident (or maybe on purpose) it caused a huge drop in iTunes rankings when the "desired" result was to make a slight adjustment.
Google does not modify searches. What they are able to do is better match their own domains/pages to the algorithm they use.
They do not re-write algos on the fly as there are too many reifications doing this. Heck, when they do release an algo change there are usually 2-3 minor fixes. This is not a simple process. They can, and do, manually value up and devalue pages.
This is as simple as adding a -10 to the domain or pages and they will drop by 10 for any results.
Since the article and Google's statement implies Apple is to blame for some of these issues, it is weird and somewhat fishy that Bing isn't also affected.
Google and Bing should be using different algorithms and methods for page ranking, no? Are you saying if there is a bug in Google+, Facebook should have it too?
And I don't think Google is "blaming" Apple, just explaining what could be triggering this case.
Google and Bing should be using different algorithms and methods for page ranking, no? Are you saying if there is a bug in Google+, Facebook should have it too?
And I don't think Google is "blaming" Apple, just explaining what could be triggering this case.
No, what is being said is if Google stated they could not crawl Apple's servers, then presumably Bing would not be able to also.
You're absolutely right. Since Google makes money through search, they want popular search results to be on top regardless of whether those pages belong to a competitor.
jragosta, why would Google intentionally downrank iTunes results? iTunes doesn't compete with Google services. Apple users download through iTunes while Android users download through the Play Store. An iPhone owner isn't going to start using Google Play because it appears in search results. It doesn't work that way.
That might be correct - if Google were looking at things the way they claim - ranking sites purely by popularity. But they also have a corporate goal of promoting Android, so it's not as simple as "most popular comes first". Heck, they've been found to move paid advertisers up on the list, as well.
Google will do whatever is best for them. Sometimes (as in the case of trying to promote Android and Android apps), that involves penalizing competitors.
Consider what you're suggesting. Google had some meeting where they conspired to make anything by Apple not sure up for several pages just to reverse that a few hours later. Do you think they didn't expect anyone to notice that one of the most heavily searched for domain names and products on the internet was coming up with bad results? Do you think Google expected the world to suddenly forget Apple, the tech company with the most mindshare, to be instantly forgotten? They rely on their searches to be accurate and if they are not they can lose that position to competitors. If they put anything about Apple several pages back people would go to other engines, not stop buying and using Apple's products. No matter what the scenario this hurts Google.
While your arguments seem plausible and have a certain anti-conspiracy-theory emotional appeal, they ignore the fact that Google does this sort of thing all the time. Unless you can explain the dumpsters, the burden of proof here lies heavily on Google, who, as usual, is blaming everyone else and telling us it was "inadvertent".
This is, once again, Google behaving badly, getting caught and lying about it. That's a clear behavioral pattern with them, so no one should be surprised.
Why do you guys bother coming up with these elaborate conspiracy theories when Google encounters a bug in their system?
We've seen that Apple keeps web pages in their servers but merely deactivates their visibility. When they were first working on the password bug they hid the page but people were still able to access it if they knew the direct link address. Only after Apple noticed this they decided to shut down the server.
Everyone in here loves to hang Google for anything it does wrong but when someone calls out an Apple flaw, they're trolls, fandroids, etc.
Comments
I have noticed stuff like this for a while now from Google. One of my apps has a fairly unique name and a few million downloads and doesn't even appear on the first page in Google. Whereas Blekko come up number one as it should.
Like when Schmidt blamed Apple for apps they hadn't submitted yet?
Quote:
Originally Posted by jungmark
Well if the android version is closer to the top/front, the naive user would think the app is only for android. Google makes money on ads. The more pages, the more ads, the better chance of user clicking an ad.
Are you suggesting that Google wants popular results to be several pages deep? Does that not contradict the entire basis for their success in the web search industry? They got to the top by giving relevant results. Users would stop using Google if it didn't provide them with the best results first, so it's entirely within their future interest to keep users happy, even if it comes at the expense of showing fewer ads immediately.
^
I think Google was up to something but the results were a little more extreme than they expected. I have no doubts that Google modifies search results to bring their own products up sooner (or those of paid advertisers). They have also been investigated for this. I also noticed this with Youtube where I searched for a video I know exists but can't seem to find on my iPhone when the exact same search terms entered on my browser finds it right away.
This tells me that Google has some sort of internal software system where they can "adjust" results. They can't re-write their search algorithms on the fly, so they must have a set of rules they can modify to alter results as they see fit. Come to think of it, I know for a fact they have this ability. They have, for example, down ranked sites that deal in pirated materials.
I think perhaps an over zealous employee might have been doing some "fine tuning" in regards to Apple and by accident (or maybe on purpose) it caused a huge drop in iTunes rankings when the "desired" result was to make a slight adjustment.
Let me go get my tin foil hat.
deleted
Quote:
Originally Posted by SolipsismX
4) Again, Google doesn't benefit from this gaffe. In every possible way it hurts them.
So if something happens to Google and doesn't simultaneously happen to Microsoft then Google is lying? How the **** does that make sense?
I don't think your #4 is correct, or at least not a full picture. I think we saw in the 90s that greed and short-sightedness can make a company do bad things for their users that seem to benefit the company's bottom line. Maybe that happened here, maybe it didn't. But I can imagine a world in which Google manipulates its search results to help Android and/or hurt Apple.
Since the article and Google's statement implies Apple is to blame for some of these issues, it is weird and somewhat fishy that Bing isn't also affected. Again, I am not necessarily saying Larry Page is a "Mr. Burns" character. But it certainly would not surprise me that a company that makes billions of dollars a year off watching what you do on the Internet and then serving you ads based on that history would do some shady shit.
Quote:
Originally Posted by SolipsismX
You are so quick to discharge any hypothesis if there isn't a mountain of verifiable proof to back it up but now you're claiming it was done maliciously by Google. Does not compute!
Consider what you're suggesting. Google had some meeting where they conspired to make anything by Apple not sure up for several pages just to reverse that a few hours later. Do you think they didn't expect anyone to notice that one of the most heavily searched for domain names and products on the internet was coming up with bad results? Do you think Google expected the world to suddenly forget Apple, the tech company with the most mindshare, to be instantly forgotten? They rely on their searches to be accurate and if they are not they can lose that position to competitors. If they put anything about Apple several pages back people would go to other engines, not stop buying and using Apple's products. No matter what the scenario this hurts Google.
Google devalues sites all the time for several reasons. This is a daily thing by Google and is well known and documented in the SEO world. (BTW, this is not a dup content issue) So this might not have been the top ranks making this happen, or it could have been.
Quote:
Originally Posted by EricTheHalfBee
I think Google was up to something but the results were a little more extreme than they expected. I have no doubts that Google modifies search results to bring their own products up sooner (or those of paid advertisers). They have also been investigated for this. I also noticed this with Youtube where I searched for a video I know exists but can't seem to find on my iPhone when the exact same search terms entered on my browser finds it right away.
This tells me that Google has some sort of internal software system where they can "adjust" results. They can't re-write their search algorithms on the fly, so they must have a set of rules they can modify to alter results as they see fit. Come to think of it, I know for a fact they have this ability. They have, for example, down ranked sites that deal in pirated materials.
I think perhaps an over zealous employee might have been doing some "fine tuning" in regards to Apple and by accident (or maybe on purpose) it caused a huge drop in iTunes rankings when the "desired" result was to make a slight adjustment.
Google does not modify searches. What they are able to do is better match their own domains/pages to the algorithm they use.
They do not re-write algos on the fly as there are too many reifications doing this. Heck, when they do release an algo change there are usually 2-3 minor fixes. This is not a simple process. They can, and do, manually value up and devalue pages.
This is as simple as adding a -10 to the domain or pages and they will drop by 10 for any results.
Google and Bing should be using different algorithms and methods for page ranking, no? Are you saying if there is a bug in Google+, Facebook should have it too?
And I don't think Google is "blaming" Apple, just explaining what could be triggering this case.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Takeiteasy
Google and Bing should be using different algorithms and methods for page ranking, no? Are you saying if there is a bug in Google+, Facebook should have it too?
And I don't think Google is "blaming" Apple, just explaining what could be triggering this case.
No, what is being said is if Google stated they could not crawl Apple's servers, then presumably Bing would not be able to also.
Quote:
Originally Posted by jragosta
Does ANYONE believe the garbage that Google says any more (other than the paid shills and the Verge, of course)?
Fixed.
That might be correct - if Google were looking at things the way they claim - ranking sites purely by popularity. But they also have a corporate goal of promoting Android, so it's not as simple as "most popular comes first". Heck, they've been found to move paid advertisers up on the list, as well.
Google will do whatever is best for them. Sometimes (as in the case of trying to promote Android and Android apps), that involves penalizing competitors.
Exactly. They have a long history of deceit and misdirection.
Quote:
Originally Posted by SolipsismX
Consider what you're suggesting. Google had some meeting where they conspired to make anything by Apple not sure up for several pages just to reverse that a few hours later. Do you think they didn't expect anyone to notice that one of the most heavily searched for domain names and products on the internet was coming up with bad results? Do you think Google expected the world to suddenly forget Apple, the tech company with the most mindshare, to be instantly forgotten? They rely on their searches to be accurate and if they are not they can lose that position to competitors. If they put anything about Apple several pages back people would go to other engines, not stop buying and using Apple's products. No matter what the scenario this hurts Google.
While your arguments seem plausible and have a certain anti-conspiracy-theory emotional appeal, they ignore the fact that Google does this sort of thing all the time. Unless you can explain the dumpsters, the burden of proof here lies heavily on Google, who, as usual, is blaming everyone else and telling us it was "inadvertent".
This is, once again, Google behaving badly, getting caught and lying about it. That's a clear behavioral pattern with them, so no one should be surprised.
Quote:
Originally Posted by jragosta
4. It doesn't happen to anyone else - just Apple.
Can you back that statement up with proof?
It will take some doing as there are plenty of examples where previous front page links suddenly fell off.
We've seen that Apple keeps web pages in their servers but merely deactivates their visibility. When they were first working on the password bug they hid the page but people were still able to access it if they knew the direct link address. Only after Apple noticed this they decided to shut down the server.
Everyone in here loves to hang Google for anything it does wrong but when someone calls out an Apple flaw, they're trolls, fandroids, etc.
What monopoly?