And no you can't offer up the iMac as that isn't a desktop machine worthy of the name.
Sez who?
You? :P
Fortunately, we don't have to take your word for it. Apple themselves hold it up as a desktop machine worthy of the name. (Check their website out...)
This is the finest iMac yet. Loads of ram. Great gpu. Fusion option. Huge screen (much better screen!) Great value. Fast, flexible i7 processor.
What's the work you're doing that this machine can't do, Wizard? X-Code? Render Farm? Video? What monitor are you using that's so much better than the iMac's? Feel free to share... (Coming from a guy using a 2008 Macbook...you'd appreciate the real estate and much better monitor of the imac 2012. Have to concentrate real hard to see any reflections...)
As for your X-Mac. Don't be coy. Tell us your specs and price. *Smiles.
The entry iMac is a better machine than the Cube or G3 tower ever were. A value proposition that sells far more than than an Apple priced X-Mac ever would.
The machine you're talking about (or as close as you'll ever get from Apple...) will be a Mini with Haswell. You'll be able to uhm...change the HD and the ram...and...er...plug in the Samsung monitor of your choice... :P (Which 'great' monitor are you using by the way? Don't be shy, share it with me...)
If you're really lucky you'll get a Mac Pro refactored/redux with £500 pound trimmed off the entry price. HAHAHHAHHAHAHAHHa. Sorry. Apple give us a price cut on a new desktop machine...sorry...I didn't believe that as I was typing it...
Looks like your 'tinker box' will still cost you £2000 'IF' Apple ever gets around to updating it. :P Will your budget stretch that far?
Just buy another Macbook Pro...with Retina. SSD, 650GT (Better than the 4000 crappics in the Mac Mini...) plenty of ram...etc. Sure...you'll pay for it...
Long silver spoons and all that...
You do realise Apple are 'THE' AIO consumer mobile computing company? ..Right?
It's out, and it's six hundred dollars. There's also a GeForce 650 for Mac out, and it's $600.
Complete insanity.
And Wizard wants an X-Mac that you can upgrade with these prices?! :O
We never had an after market when the G3 tower was doing the rounds with Voodoo GPUs.
Though more Macs are being sold than ever before...they're all AIOs.
The market for 2k plus towers and under powered (bring all your own equipment) biscuit boxes must be tiny... I'm surprised they're offering any gpus at all for 'pro' machines given 'probable' sales...
a new machine gives them the opportunity to introduce it at a more reasonable price point.
What opportunity in a declining desktop? How many units will it sell? What price will it be? What spec will it be? Add on any Apple or 3rd party monitor? And?
It's nothing more than the Holy Grail, Wizard. You want it. I may secretly want it. But where is the evidence to support your dream?
Again. Their desktop, rightly or wrongly (yes, we know what you think...but what you think or wish for isn't what Apple's been doing for ten years plus...) I used to fear the iMac. It proved unfounded. Desktop? Mere semantics. You've got a desktop replacement with your MacBook Pro? You can call it a laptop all you like. It's still an AIO. Apple don't want you to tinker. Or replace anything. They want you to get ass reamed for upgrades on their store. (Hold up your hands if you like that...anyone on these boards?)
When was the last time Apple introduced a new desktop machine for a cheaper price?
Frankly though it doesn't matter what is in the stores now, which by the way seldom have Mac Pros on display.
Why is that?
Lemon Bon Bon.
PS. Clue. They'd have to fold time and space to cut the entry price of the Pro in half...and they'd be lucky to double sales. Will they do that? Would it be worth it to them to do that in margins/profit?
Would like to see a new Pro come out to replace mine for a new DAW. I can't upgrade my OS past 10.5 and I like the tower factor for the upgrade purposes.
done right such a box could take all of the Mac Pro sales, some Mini and a lot of iMac sales.
((What specs? What price? Wizard? 5-50K worth of Pro sales? 150k Mini sales? 250K iMac sales? 400k-iSH unit sales if you're lucky. Is this worth Apple getting out of bed for? They may as well do what they're doing now. They're not a 'desktop' company any longer Wizard.
Plus I see a gradual abandonment of the laptop segment for the combo of a desktop and a tablet.
((Define desktop. IF laptop sales erode over time...heaven help 'desktop' sales. All a laptop is? AIO desktop replacement. It's a mobile desktop if you want to be pedantic. By the time tablets do to laptops what laptops have done to desktops...you're 'desktop' computing appliance will be a very powerful laptop...or more likely the iPhone/iPad/iPad mini 8, 9, 10 or something. i.e. 'Mother box' in your pocket hooked upto a huge Apple Super Hi Def TV screen.)) ie you've been waiting how long for your 'X-Mac' now? You'll crack before Apple does! :P Luckily for you Haswell Mini is the closest thing to offering 'some value', 'some performance', 'some tinkering' and 'some gpu' with 'some' monitor of your choice etc, etc. And the good news from here on in...Intel integrated crappics won't be as historically crap as they were...before System on a chip...computing getting smaller and more powerful is where we're going.))
What it comes down to is hitting the right price point with the right performance.
((Which is?))
There is nothing "Über" about this machine which is something I've been very clear about, the goal is to get a entry level machine
Would like to see a new Pro come out to replace mine for a new DAW. I can't upgrade my OS past 10.5 and I like the tower factor for the upgrade purposes.
I wish Apple would come out with a new Pro. And with a 25% price cut to the entry model...
Surely the 'ten year' old plus model can't last much longer? it's 2013 or never?
When a member of the original Mac' team slams the last 'update' (heh, heh...) that's truly bad P.R. Guess Apple doesn't capitulate to such 'outrage' given the sales of the Pro. Though it was more apologetic for iMaps...
Sadly you are agreeing with many of my points here, yet reject my solution which is to market a reasonable machine at a reasonable price.
I actually do agree and 'not' agree with many of your points. But it's not about what you or I want, is it? Let's just look at what Apple's doing? It's mobile. It's slimmer. It's portable. It's AIO.
Anything that's selling well?
iMac (old fashioned desktop concept.) (AIO) One million units? Laptops (portable desktop replacements...) (AIO) 4 million units. iPad. (AIO) (14 million?) iPhone (AIO) 35 million?
The iPhone in my pocket is more powerful than the G4 tower I have from 2001 in my living room (yup...it runs Os X...and youtube video...JUST!!!)
They'd have to tear up the 'desktop' line to do what you're talking about? What? 'Conservative' Apple tearing up their desktop line? When did they ever do this? When? When was the last time?
I can kinda see what you're wanting in the absence of 'hard' details such a machine. But it's unlikely to happen. There's nothing in the store...or in the design direction of the last ten years plus to indicate what you want.
You'll be lucky to get a Mini with Haswell gpu ...and count yourself lucky. It's that or another Macbook Pro for you? Or start saving and just get a low end Pro for 2k+ (I'll be amazed if they drop the price on it...or even launch a compelling new one.)
Apple have more money in the bank 140 billion and more to roll in even if they sit still...and they have the Mac volume to broaden appeal with new models. But didn't they do that in the 1990s? It was disastrous. Apple do simple. Apple do slim. Apple do 75% of the power you need in smaller form factors. It's not about all out power. You want something more powerful than the top of the line iMac (which is eating the lunch of the Mac Pro in traditional market such as video, 3D, games? heh.., programming?, DTP? Photoshopping?...?) and you'll pay for it. All Apple's machines are about 'upsell'. Sure, I don't like it. You have to pay for it. You want all out access? it's the Pro. And you'll pay for it. It's been going that way for the last ten years...with no signs of reversal...and the ominous writing on the wall for the Pro isn't a good sign for those who want 'access.'
So why are people buying Laptops (sorry, desktop replacements...), iMacs (to a lesser degree but way more than Pro or Mini...), tablets or phones? Because people can get more done now with such machines than they could with a tower that costed almost 3k ten years ago. Most of what they want can be covered with cheaper, more powerful devices than ever.
Do people need access to all these AIO machines? Why not? Apple are building stores for 'most' people or the 'most' ones with money to pay their 'premium.' Nickle and diming on the up sell. For an X-Mac at £995 ...how much better would the gpu be? The cpu be? How much more ram? SSD included? Then add the price of 3rd party monitor and it's not such a good deal. Certainly not when you buy an Apple badged monitor. Apple force you all the wayyyy up the ladder for a gpu worthy of the name.
I think the best bang for buck gpu they offer right now is the 650 GT. You have to pay £1250 to get that in iMac flavour. And pay for it to get it in Macbook flavour... To get a 'high end' gpu now from Apple? You're looking at around 2k give or take below or higher depending on what you configure.
The heavy lifting of 'Dual processor' Mac Pros? Much of what it can do has been eating away by the top end iMac. The relative rump of the dual processor crowd is less relevant to where Apple is now. It's no longer Apple Computer. It's something very different.
Pro is what you do for a living. It can be any machine. Any 'desktop' any replacement desktop or an iPad...or phablet for some. The rump for a 'Pro' machine desktop? Seems tiny...or why isn't Apple breaking their neck to replace it...?
The desktop market as we define is just not there to support a desktop £995-£1495 X-Mac. They tried it three times and it didn't sell enough. Not as the Cube. Not as the G3 tower. Not as the G5 tower at £995. As past definitions go. You want your X-Mac tailored just for you as a slightly bigger any form factor Mini/Cube but won't recognise a great machine in the iMac that is pretty much the desktop's last stand as Apple defines it. (And the last time we looked...Apple defines what company it is...and what 'desktops' it offers.)
You don't have to like the iMac. But it's the best thing Apple offers as a 'desktop' right now. They'll have to go some to improve on it. It's the best AIO out there.
You're saying Apple should offer an X-Mac. Tell us how? What price? What form? How many units will it sell, Wizard? What's it going to replace? Will it be worth doing so? How many Windows convertors will it achieve?
There's nothing wrong with wanting something.
vs
The reality of what Apple's track record and design direction and pricing policies...and incentive to do so?
Is it a desktop company? or a mobile computing company? (The latter words coming right out of Cook's mouth and he offered sales and market position to back it up. The latter of which makes the 'desktop' line a blip on the sales charts.)
You'll be lucky to get a Mini with Haswell gpu ...and count yourself lucky.
You're saying Apple should offer an xMac. Tell us how?
I'd like to say there's 2 fragments in your sentence that you should consider revising.
The Haswell is a processor with HD Integrated Graphics, they suck, nonetheless they are 3x faster than the previous gen and of course there's going to be a new Mac Mini, there's always been. It's why the Mac Pro doesn't sell and why the iMac is the most preferred Mac to buy.
But because both don't handle more than your average Gaming Tower with a GTX 660, there's many reasons why a new Mac Pro is worth creating to retire the current outdated ones. An xMac Pro would be a new computer that is lighter, smaller, and better. Lighter because you can ship it at lower prices, smaller because it's more eco-friendly and can be produced in higher amounts.
It would be the next generation of Mac Pro's like when Apple upgraded the old desktop towers to a cube. We've reached another time when the technology can fit inside smaller sizes. I don't expect it to be in a cube form factor though, but still a slimmer profile with the removal of a DVD drive bay or it would be in vertically with no tray open slot like the Wii or PS3 disc slots. It would have the power embedded into the motherboard so no PSU would be necessary like the Mac Mini does power and the RAM would go up to 32GB. It would have SSD drives and PCI Express 3.0 lanes. It would have USB 3.0, A MiniDisplay Port for the standard graphics or HDMI and if GPU vendors decide to use Thunderbolt as Display Ports it would be cool for it too.
The design would be as minimal as possible with only USB Ports on the front and an on/off Apple logo power sensor that's lighted up and if you touch it your Mac goes to sleep and if you touch and hold your finger on it for a few seconds it turns off your xMac. It would be Black/Silvery Aluminum or Sparkly Metallic Black/ the color of the Black iPhone 5's case and material or come in various aluminum iodized colors and it would be designed with round corners, in a slim profile like an mATX mid tower but better with great cooling efficiency and noise reduction.
Along the xMac introduction would be lithium rechargeable accessories for it, like an updated Magic Mouse as Talest Skil pointed this out, and a new keyboard with a rechargeable battery and a USB slot on the side and on the other a USB input for when you want to recharge your item or just keep it tethered to not use battery power.
Personally I'd rather build myself a much cheaper mATX form factor computer but I'd buy an xMac if it had Windows graphics compatible drivers for Bootcamp to game with because as I've noticed Macs don't have a large game selection out today and the build quality/ selling price point would be better than putting together a computer on a cheap case with high end components. I can average 900 dollars less than buying a Mac Pro today.
Another thing is I have a laptop that can run the latest games that's replaced my desktop so if they can release a cheaper MacBook Pro without a retina display and a GTX 680mx that'd be great.
Another thing is I have a laptop that can run the latest games that's replaced my desktop so if they can release a cheaper MacBook Pro without a retina display and a GTX 680mx that'd be great.
The mini is very limited compared to the mac pro. You're only comparing them because both happen to be headless. If the mini works, you drastically misinterpreted your own needs on prior purchases. Regarding a 680mx, you are out of your mind. None of the larger oems that I checked go past a 650 in a 15" model. There might be a 660 somewhere. Sager has a 680m in one, but they tend to be a bit heavier. In either case Apple's power supply and designs aren't sufficient for such a card. Changing out the display isn't going to fix all of those problems.
And Wizard wants an X-Mac that you can upgrade with these prices?! :O
Are you in the business of distorting what other have to say? I ask because you do this so well that one might think you are a professional.
In any event the point of offering upgradability is to be able to configure the XMac to your needs. For most of use the video card means nothing, it could be soldered to the motherboard for all I care.
We never had an after market when the G3 tower was doing the rounds with Voodoo GPUs.
If you keeping looking at this with blinders on you will never see the larger world. Expandability has little to do with GPU cards.
Though more Macs are being sold than ever before...they're all AIOs.
Actually most of the increases in Mac sales go to laptops.
The market for 2k plus towers and under powered (bring all your own equipment) biscuit boxes must be tiny... I'm surprised they're offering any gpus at all for 'pro' machines given 'probable' sales...
Your responses have become ridiculous. They offer GPUs in the Mac Pro because it is pretty useless without them. Further the whole point about the XMac is to get well under that $2K mark. Getting under the $2K mark is easy even keeping Apples usual margins.
I'm sure they'll sell a bundle at those prices...
Lemon Bon Bon.
Well considering the efforts Apple and its vendors have gone through to move laptops lately I think it is reasonable to say they are having issues moving many products at the prices they are charging. Apple really has to start to reconsider their pricing strategy and consider accepting lower margins, especially on the upsell versions of each product.
What opportunity in a declining desktop? How many units will it sell? What price will it be? What spec will it be? Add on any Apple or 3rd party monitor? And?
It is the difference between getting some sales and no sales at all.
It's nothing more than the Holy Grail, Wizard. You want it. I may secretly want it. But where is the evidence to support your dream?
It is all about how companies survive, they do that by keeping the product line fresh. Think about this in terms of other companies and technologies. For example there is a great American company called Hardinge that makes lathes and mills. One if their class machines up is the HLV lathe, the ultimate in a manual tool room lathe. However it isn't the sort of machine that a company can survive on, especially with knock off copies coming from Asia. So they have developed other CNC based machines. Now that they have these CNC machines though they can't stop development and remain static. Rather they have to continue to exploit new technologies as they become available, meet new customer needs and address old tech that has become unattainable.
To put it simply Apple has failed to do this with its desktop line up which today meets a quickly shrink pool of customer needs.
Again. Their desktop, rightly or wrongly (yes, we know what you think...but what you think or wish for isn't what Apple's been doing for ten years plus...) I used to fear the iMac. It proved unfounded.
For you today it is unfounded but how will you feel when he HD goes bad and you have to pay 3 times the going rate to get it repaired? You keep trying to pass off the iMac as a desktop machine but clearly it isn't.
Desktop? Mere semantics. You've got a desktop replacement with your MacBook Pro? You can call it a laptop all you like. It's still an AIO. Apple don't want you to tinker. Or replace anything. They want you to get ass reamed for upgrades on their store. (Hold up your hands if you like that...anyone on these boards?)
That may be the case but why not demand more from Apple? The vast majority of companies out there are responsive to customer needs, yet you expect everybody to bend over and grab their ankles and take it. I really don't get you attitude here, a little backbone can go a long ways you know.
When was the last time Apple introduced a new desktop machine for a cheaper price?
*crickets chirping.
That's right Wizard.
Which is the whole point of this discussion. Apple has done just the opposite with the Mac Pro, raising he price for no good reason, some time $500 at a clip. What good has that done Apple, the Mac Pro or their perception in the marketplace? If Apple hasn't been successful raising prices or offering poor value then the obvious thing to do is to address that problem. That means lower prices or far better value.
I'd like to say there's 2 fragments in your sentence that you should consider revising.
The Haswell is a processor with HD Integrated Graphics, they suck, nonetheless they are 3x faster than the previous gen and of course there's going to be a new Mac Mini, there's always been. It's why the Mac Pro doesn't sell and why the iMac is the most preferred Mac to buy.
They are UP TO 3X faster, that is a long ways fro stating they are 3X faster. That being said if Apple chooses the right chip to go into the next Mini it could be a very interesting machine.
But because both don't handle more than your average Gaming Tower with a GTX 660, there's many reasons why a new Mac Pro is worth creating to retire the current outdated ones. An xMac Pro would be a new computer that is lighter, smaller, and better. Lighter because you can ship it at lower prices, smaller because it's more eco-friendly and can be produced in higher amounts.
It would be the next generation of Mac Pro's like when Apple upgraded the old desktop towers to a cube. We've reached another time when the technology can fit inside smaller sizes. I don't expect it to be in a cube form factor though, but still a slimmer profile with the removal of a DVD drive bay or it would be in vertically with no tray open slot like the Wii or PS3 disc slots. It would have the power embedded into the motherboard so no PSU would be necessary like the Mac Mini does power and the RAM would go up to 32GB. It would have SSD drives and PCI Express 3.0 lanes. It would have USB 3.0, A MiniDisplay Port for the standard graphics or HDMI and if GPU vendors decide to use Thunderbolt as Display Ports it would be cool for it too.
The design would be as minimal as possible with only USB Ports on the front and an on/off Apple logo power sensor that's lighted up and if you touch it your Mac goes to sleep and if you touch and hold your finger on it for a few seconds it turns off your xMac. It would be Black/Silvery Aluminum or Sparkly Metallic Black/ the color of the Black iPhone 5's case and material or come in various aluminum iodized colors and it would be designed with round corners, in a slim profile like an mATX mid tower but better with great cooling efficiency and noise reduction.
I think the big thing people mis is that with today's technology it is very easy to compress a machine down into a compact form factor without loosing much. A top end Mac Pro, even with dual sockets could also be compressed a bit but not to the extent that an XMac type machine can be. I just looked at the printer on my desk and I'm thinking that a box that size would make for a nice XMac.
Along the xMac introduction would be lithium rechargeable accessories for it, like an updated Magic Mouse as Talest Skil pointed this out, and a new keyboard with a rechargeable battery and a USB slot on the side and on the other a USB input for when you want to recharge your item or just keep it tethered to not use battery power.
Personally I'd rather build myself a much cheaper mATX form factor computer but I'd buy an xMac if it had Windows graphics compatible drivers for Bootcamp to game with because as I've noticed Macs don't have a large game selection out today and the build quality/ selling price point would be better than putting together a computer on a cheap case with high end components. I can average 900 dollars less than buying a Mac Pro today.
It should be noted that that $900 difference is when purchasing parts retail. That should say something about Apples markup.
Another thing is I have a laptop that can run the latest games that's replaced my desktop so if they can release a cheaper MacBook Pro without a retina display and a GTX 680mx that'd be great.
Retina is the wave of the future. They are more likely to drop the non retina machines.
Retina is the wave of the future. They are more likely to drop the non retina machines.
Yeah it is, but with standard resolutions and high antialiasing you get almost the same result, I can tell what you're saying though because games with more polygons look tremendously better on retina screens. It's still gives you slower frame rates and if the games are developed for retina screens most of the world wouldn't be able to play them right now... So I think it's safe to say that the future is on hold for at least another 2 years when Windows PC's get retina displays or when iMacs do. Nobody that's sane wants to buy a rMacbook Pro because the price is too damn high when you can get better specs and gameplay on gaming notebooks. I recon 17.3 inch displays are the sweet spot or at 1920x1080 and the rMBP isn't really made for gaming but more of a video and photo editor. If the XMac came with a retina display that would definitely speed up the future for those who could afford it at introduction but I'm not an early adopter. I skip generations of phones until I see it's fully working. I avoided buying the first iPhone because it had really bad specs. I think it's better to wait and see what tech companies develop because the first gens usually suck/ are too expensive.
Edited on May 19, 2013...
There is now a Windows Notebook with a 2560x1440 13.3 Inch Windows Notebook. It's the Toshiba KIRAbook for 1799. It's like a future Retina Macbook Air little chubby cousin. So the future doesn't seem so far away.
They are UP TO 3X faster, that is a long ways fro stating they are 3X faster. That being said if Apple chooses the right chip to go into the next Mini it could be a very interesting machine.
I don't pay a lot of attention to early predictions or benchmarks without context due to how misleading they can be. There are too many factors, and it's only easy to line them up on a single "performance" dimension against the prior year when gains are exponential in multiple areas. If their gains don't hit a wall, it's possible that I won't view integrated graphics as a hindrance for much longer. As of now E/EP lines are still split off on their own trajectory. Intel allocates a lot of die space to an IGP on mainstream models simply because current software still runs well on them. There is little drive for exponential cpu performance gains at the mass market level, and I suspect they don't have anything big enough to be truly game changing there over the shorter term. As for notebooks, they have outpaced desktop displays on resolution for years. I was a little surprised to see the custom implementation on the imac even though it's the same panel. They are ridiculously commoditized. Everything just uses LG panels top to bottom, and many of them use the same part number binned out. Of course there's more to display engineering than the panel used, but the only really new thing is the specific use of doubling. Notebook display resolution used to be much lower. It's just for once they raised it without making things smaller on screen. Personally I feel like nothing could replace a fairly large display with current software. When you block out a lot of area for ui elements and still require a lot of work area, it's difficult to work on something of notebook size.
Will they create a new tagline, or simply reuse an old one?
The Power Macintosh G3: Performance, capabilities, and style that will dazzle you every day you use it.
Move over, speed of light. Introducing the Power Mac G4.
Two brains are better than one.
Power Mac G4 Cube. So much technology. So little space.
Power to burn.
Pro create. Introducing the new Power Mac G4.
Introducing the new Power Mac G4. All with dual processors.
The new Power Mac G4. Faster, more expandable, and more affordable than ever.
The Power Mac G5. The world's fastest personal computer.
The new Power Mac G5. Engineered for the creative class.
The 64-bit professional dream machine.
Power Mac G5. The power of four.
Room to grow. Introducing Mac Pro.
Professional velocity.
The new Mac Pro. Tower of 8-core power.
The new Mac Pro. Beauty outside. Beast inside.
Mac. To the power of 12.
18. Made in the U.S.A.
Tim Cook says they're working on bringing production of a newer model of one of their current platforms and because the Mac Pro is their lowest volume people are claiming it's the new Mac Pro.
Not so shabby concept of a future Mac Pro. I like the third one.
Comments
Quote:
And no you can't offer up the iMac as that isn't a desktop machine worthy of the name.
Sez who?
You? :P
Fortunately, we don't have to take your word for it. Apple themselves hold it up as a desktop machine worthy of the name. (Check their website out...)
This is the finest iMac yet. Loads of ram. Great gpu. Fusion option. Huge screen (much better screen!) Great value. Fast, flexible i7 processor.
What's the work you're doing that this machine can't do, Wizard? X-Code? Render Farm? Video? What monitor are you using that's so much better than the iMac's? Feel free to share... (Coming from a guy using a 2008 Macbook...you'd appreciate the real estate and much better monitor of the imac 2012. Have to concentrate real hard to see any reflections...)
As for your X-Mac. Don't be coy. Tell us your specs and price. *Smiles.
The entry iMac is a better machine than the Cube or G3 tower ever were. A value proposition that sells far more than than an Apple priced X-Mac ever would.
The machine you're talking about (or as close as you'll ever get from Apple...) will be a Mini with Haswell. You'll be able to uhm...change the HD and the ram...and...er...plug in the Samsung monitor of your choice... :P (Which 'great' monitor are you using by the way? Don't be shy, share it with me...)
If you're really lucky you'll get a Mac Pro refactored/redux with £500 pound trimmed off the entry price. HAHAHHAHHAHAHAHHa. Sorry. Apple give us a price cut on a new desktop machine...sorry...I didn't believe that as I was typing it...
Looks like your 'tinker box' will still cost you £2000 'IF' Apple ever gets around to updating it. :P Will your budget stretch that far?
Just buy another Macbook Pro...with Retina. SSD, 650GT (Better than the 4000 crappics in the Mac Mini...) plenty of ram...etc. Sure...you'll pay for it...
Long silver spoons and all that...
You do realise Apple are 'THE' AIO consumer mobile computing company? ..Right?
Lemon Bon Bon.
Quote:
apples pricing...sucks
Fixed that for you. :P
yeah...we know.
Lemon Bon Bon.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tallest Skil
It's out, and it's six hundred dollars. There's also a GeForce 650 for Mac out, and it's $600.
Complete insanity.
And Wizard wants an X-Mac that you can upgrade with these prices?! :O
We never had an after market when the G3 tower was doing the rounds with Voodoo GPUs.
Though more Macs are being sold than ever before...they're all AIOs.
The market for 2k plus towers and under powered (bring all your own equipment) biscuit boxes must be tiny... I'm surprised they're offering any gpus at all for 'pro' machines given 'probable' sales...
I'm sure they'll sell a bundle at those prices...
Lemon Bon Bon.
Quote:
a new machine gives them the opportunity to introduce it at a more reasonable price point.
What opportunity in a declining desktop? How many units will it sell? What price will it be? What spec will it be? Add on any Apple or 3rd party monitor? And?
It's nothing more than the Holy Grail, Wizard. You want it. I may secretly want it. But where is the evidence to support your dream?
Again. Their desktop, rightly or wrongly (yes, we know what you think...but what you think or wish for isn't what Apple's been doing for ten years plus...) I used to fear the iMac. It proved unfounded. Desktop? Mere semantics. You've got a desktop replacement with your MacBook Pro? You can call it a laptop all you like. It's still an AIO. Apple don't want you to tinker. Or replace anything. They want you to get ass reamed for upgrades on their store. (Hold up your hands if you like that...anyone on these boards?)
When was the last time Apple introduced a new desktop machine for a cheaper price?
*crickets chirping.
That's right Wizard.
Lemon Bon Bon.
Quote:
It might also be noted that the iMac is the only machine that gets any engineering investment at all.
Why might that be? :P
Lemon Bon Bon.
Quote:
Frankly though it doesn't matter what is in the stores now, which by the way seldom have Mac Pros on display.
Why is that?
Lemon Bon Bon.
PS. Clue. They'd have to fold time and space to cut the entry price of the Pro in half...and they'd be lucky to double sales. Will they do that? Would it be worth it to them to do that in margins/profit?
Would like to see a new Pro come out to replace mine for a new DAW. I can't upgrade my OS past 10.5 and I like the tower factor for the upgrade purposes.
Quote:
done right such a box could take all of the Mac Pro sales, some Mini and a lot of iMac sales.
((What specs? What price? Wizard? 5-50K worth of Pro sales? 150k Mini sales? 250K iMac sales? 400k-iSH unit sales if you're lucky. Is this worth Apple getting out of bed for? They may as well do what they're doing now. They're not a 'desktop' company any longer Wizard.
Plus I see a gradual abandonment of the laptop segment for the combo of a desktop and a tablet.
((Define desktop. IF laptop sales erode over time...heaven help 'desktop' sales. All a laptop is? AIO desktop replacement. It's a mobile desktop if you want to be pedantic. By the time tablets do to laptops what laptops have done to desktops...you're 'desktop' computing appliance will be a very powerful laptop...or more likely the iPhone/iPad/iPad mini 8, 9, 10 or something. i.e. 'Mother box' in your pocket hooked upto a huge Apple Super Hi Def TV screen.)) ie you've been waiting how long for your 'X-Mac' now? You'll crack before Apple does! :P Luckily for you Haswell Mini is the closest thing to offering 'some value', 'some performance', 'some tinkering' and 'some gpu' with 'some' monitor of your choice etc, etc. And the good news from here on in...Intel integrated crappics won't be as historically crap as they were...before System on a chip...computing getting smaller and more powerful is where we're going.))
What it comes down to is hitting the right price point with the right performance.
((Which is?))
There is nothing "Über" about this machine which is something I've been very clear about, the goal is to get a entry level machine
((Which is?))
into the market at a reasonable price point.
((Which is?))
Lemon Bon Bon.
Quote:
Originally Posted by SoopaDrive
Would like to see a new Pro come out to replace mine for a new DAW. I can't upgrade my OS past 10.5 and I like the tower factor for the upgrade purposes.
I wish Apple would come out with a new Pro. And with a 25% price cut to the entry model...
Surely the 'ten year' old plus model can't last much longer? it's 2013 or never?
When a member of the original Mac' team slams the last 'update' (heh, heh...) that's truly bad P.R. Guess Apple doesn't capitulate to such 'outrage' given the sales of the Pro. Though it was more apologetic for iMaps...
Lemon Bon Bon.
Quote:
Sadly you are agreeing with many of my points here, yet reject my solution which is to market a reasonable machine at a reasonable price.
I actually do agree and 'not' agree with many of your points. But it's not about what you or I want, is it? Let's just look at what Apple's doing? It's mobile. It's slimmer. It's portable. It's AIO.
Anything that's selling well?
iMac (old fashioned desktop concept.) (AIO) One million units? Laptops (portable desktop replacements...) (AIO) 4 million units. iPad. (AIO) (14 million?) iPhone (AIO) 35 million?
The iPhone in my pocket is more powerful than the G4 tower I have from 2001 in my living room (yup...it runs Os X...and youtube video...JUST!!!)
They'd have to tear up the 'desktop' line to do what you're talking about? What? 'Conservative' Apple tearing up their desktop line? When did they ever do this? When? When was the last time?
I can kinda see what you're wanting in the absence of 'hard' details such a machine. But it's unlikely to happen. There's nothing in the store...or in the design direction of the last ten years plus to indicate what you want.
You'll be lucky to get a Mini with Haswell gpu ...and count yourself lucky. It's that or another Macbook Pro for you?
Apple have more money in the bank 140 billion and more to roll in even if they sit still...and they have the Mac volume to broaden appeal with new models. But didn't they do that in the 1990s? It was disastrous. Apple do simple. Apple do slim. Apple do 75% of the power you need in smaller form factors. It's not about all out power. You want something more powerful than the top of the line iMac (which is eating the lunch of the Mac Pro in traditional market such as video, 3D, games? heh.., programming?, DTP? Photoshopping?...?) and you'll pay for it. All Apple's machines are about 'upsell'. Sure, I don't like it. You have to pay for it. You want all out access? it's the Pro. And you'll pay for it. It's been going that way for the last ten years...with no signs of reversal...and the ominous writing on the wall for the Pro isn't a good sign for those who want 'access.'
So why are people buying Laptops (sorry, desktop replacements...), iMacs (to a lesser degree but way more than Pro or Mini...), tablets or phones? Because people can get more done now with such machines than they could with a tower that costed almost 3k ten years ago. Most of what they want can be covered with cheaper, more powerful devices than ever.
Do people need access to all these AIO machines? Why not? Apple are building stores for 'most' people or the 'most' ones with money to pay their 'premium.' Nickle and diming on the up sell. For an X-Mac at £995 ...how much better would the gpu be? The cpu be? How much more ram? SSD included? Then add the price of 3rd party monitor and it's not such a good deal. Certainly not when you buy an Apple badged monitor. Apple force you all the wayyyy up the ladder for a gpu worthy of the name.
I think the best bang for buck gpu they offer right now is the 650 GT. You have to pay £1250 to get that in iMac flavour. And pay for it to get it in Macbook flavour... To get a 'high end' gpu now from Apple? You're looking at around 2k give or take below or higher depending on what you configure.
The heavy lifting of 'Dual processor' Mac Pros? Much of what it can do has been eating away by the top end iMac. The relative rump of the dual processor crowd is less relevant to where Apple is now. It's no longer Apple Computer. It's something very different.
Pro is what you do for a living. It can be any machine. Any 'desktop' any replacement desktop or an iPad...or phablet for some. The rump for a 'Pro' machine desktop? Seems tiny...or why isn't Apple breaking their neck to replace it...?
The desktop market as we define is just not there to support a desktop £995-£1495 X-Mac. They tried it three times and it didn't sell enough. Not as the Cube. Not as the G3 tower. Not as the G5 tower at £995. As past definitions go. You want your X-Mac tailored just for you as a slightly bigger any form factor Mini/Cube but won't recognise a great machine in the iMac that is pretty much the desktop's last stand as Apple defines it. (And the last time we looked...Apple defines what company it is...and what 'desktops' it offers.)
You don't have to like the iMac. But it's the best thing Apple offers as a 'desktop' right now. They'll have to go some to improve on it. It's the best AIO out there.
You're saying Apple should offer an X-Mac. Tell us how? What price? What form? How many units will it sell, Wizard? What's it going to replace? Will it be worth doing so? How many Windows convertors will it achieve?
There's nothing wrong with wanting something.
vs
The reality of what Apple's track record and design direction and pricing policies...and incentive to do so?
Is it a desktop company? or a mobile computing company? (The latter words coming right out of Cook's mouth and he offered sales and market position to back it up. The latter of which makes the 'desktop' line a blip on the sales charts.)
Lemon Bon Bon.
The Haswell is a processor with HD Integrated Graphics, they suck, nonetheless they are 3x faster than the previous gen and of course there's going to be a new Mac Mini, there's always been. It's why the Mac Pro doesn't sell and why the iMac is the most preferred Mac to buy.
But because both don't handle more than your average Gaming Tower with a GTX 660, there's many reasons why a new Mac Pro is worth creating to retire the current outdated ones. An xMac Pro would be a new computer that is lighter, smaller, and better. Lighter because you can ship it at lower prices, smaller because it's more eco-friendly and can be produced in higher amounts.
It would be the next generation of Mac Pro's like when Apple upgraded the old desktop towers to a cube. We've reached another time when the technology can fit inside smaller sizes. I don't expect it to be in a cube form factor though, but still a slimmer profile with the removal of a DVD drive bay or it would be in vertically with no tray open slot like the Wii or PS3 disc slots. It would have the power embedded into the motherboard so no PSU would be necessary like the Mac Mini does power and the RAM would go up to 32GB. It would have SSD drives and PCI Express 3.0 lanes. It would have USB 3.0, A MiniDisplay Port for the standard graphics or HDMI and if GPU vendors decide to use Thunderbolt as Display Ports it would be cool for it too.
The design would be as minimal as possible with only USB Ports on the front and an on/off Apple logo power sensor that's lighted up and if you touch it your Mac goes to sleep and if you touch and hold your finger on it for a few seconds it turns off your xMac. It would be Black/Silvery Aluminum or Sparkly Metallic Black/ the color of the Black iPhone 5's case and material or come in various aluminum iodized colors and it would be designed with round corners, in a slim profile like an mATX mid tower but better with great cooling efficiency and noise reduction.
Along the xMac introduction would be lithium rechargeable accessories for it, like an updated Magic Mouse as Talest Skil pointed this out, and a new keyboard with a rechargeable battery and a USB slot on the side and on the other a USB input for when you want to recharge your item or just keep it tethered to not use battery power.
Personally I'd rather build myself a much cheaper mATX form factor computer but I'd buy an xMac if it had Windows graphics compatible drivers for Bootcamp to game with because as I've noticed Macs don't have a large game selection out today and the build quality/ selling price point would be better than putting together a computer on a cheap case with high end components. I can average 900 dollars less than buying a Mac Pro today.
Another thing is I have a laptop that can run the latest games that's replaced my desktop so if they can release a cheaper MacBook Pro without a retina display and a GTX 680mx that'd be great.
Quote:
Originally Posted by darkdefender
Another thing is I have a laptop that can run the latest games that's replaced my desktop so if they can release a cheaper MacBook Pro without a retina display and a GTX 680mx that'd be great.
The mini is very limited compared to the mac pro. You're only comparing them because both happen to be headless. If the mini works, you drastically misinterpreted your own needs on prior purchases. Regarding a 680mx, you are out of your mind. None of the larger oems that I checked go past a 650 in a 15" model. There might be a 660 somewhere. Sager has a 680m in one, but they tend to be a bit heavier. In either case Apple's power supply and designs aren't sufficient for such a card. Changing out the display isn't going to fix all of those problems.
In any event the point of offering upgradability is to be able to configure the XMac to your needs. For most of use the video card means nothing, it could be soldered to the motherboard for all I care. If you keeping looking at this with blinders on you will never see the larger world. Expandability has little to do with GPU cards. Actually most of the increases in Mac sales go to laptops. Your responses have become ridiculous. They offer GPUs in the Mac Pro because it is pretty useless without them. Further the whole point about the XMac is to get well under that $2K mark. Getting under the $2K mark is easy even keeping Apples usual margins. Well considering the efforts Apple and its vendors have gone through to move laptops lately I think it is reasonable to say they are having issues moving many products at the prices they are charging. Apple really has to start to reconsider their pricing strategy and consider accepting lower margins, especially on the upsell versions of each product.
To put it simply Apple has failed to do this with its desktop line up which today meets a quickly shrink pool of customer needs. For you today it is unfounded but how will you feel when he HD goes bad and you have to pay 3 times the going rate to get it repaired? You keep trying to pass off the iMac as a desktop machine but clearly it isn't. That may be the case but why not demand more from Apple? The vast majority of companies out there are responsive to customer needs, yet you expect everybody to bend over and grab their ankles and take it. I really don't get you attitude here, a little backbone can go a long ways you know. Which is the whole point of this discussion. Apple has done just the opposite with the Mac Pro, raising he price for no good reason, some time $500 at a clip. What good has that done Apple, the Mac Pro or their perception in the marketplace? If Apple hasn't been successful raising prices or offering poor value then the obvious thing to do is to address that problem. That means lower prices or far better value.
Edited on May 19, 2013...
There is now a Windows Notebook with a 2560x1440 13.3 Inch Windows Notebook. It's the Toshiba KIRAbook for 1799. It's like a future Retina Macbook Air little chubby cousin. So the future doesn't seem so far away.
Quote:
Originally Posted by wizard69
They are UP TO 3X faster, that is a long ways fro stating they are 3X faster. That being said if Apple chooses the right chip to go into the next Mini it could be a very interesting machine.
I don't pay a lot of attention to early predictions or benchmarks without context due to how misleading they can be. There are too many factors, and it's only easy to line them up on a single "performance" dimension against the prior year when gains are exponential in multiple areas. If their gains don't hit a wall, it's possible that I won't view integrated graphics as a hindrance for much longer. As of now E/EP lines are still split off on their own trajectory. Intel allocates a lot of die space to an IGP on mainstream models simply because current software still runs well on them. There is little drive for exponential cpu performance gains at the mass market level, and I suspect they don't have anything big enough to be truly game changing there over the shorter term. As for notebooks, they have outpaced desktop displays on resolution for years. I was a little surprised to see the custom implementation on the imac even though it's the same panel. They are ridiculously commoditized. Everything just uses LG panels top to bottom, and many of them use the same part number binned out. Of course there's more to display engineering than the panel used, but the only really new thing is the specific use of doubling. Notebook display resolution used to be much lower. It's just for once they raised it without making things smaller on screen. Personally I feel like nothing could replace a fairly large display with current software. When you block out a lot of area for ui elements and still require a lot of work area, it's difficult to work on something of notebook size.
Quote:
Originally Posted by PhilBoogie
Will they create a new tagline, or simply reuse an old one?
The Power Macintosh G3: Performance, capabilities, and style that will dazzle you every day you use it.
Move over, speed of light. Introducing the Power Mac G4.
Two brains are better than one.
Power Mac G4 Cube. So much technology. So little space.
Power to burn.
Pro create. Introducing the new Power Mac G4.
Introducing the new Power Mac G4. All with dual processors.
The new Power Mac G4. Faster, more expandable, and more affordable than ever.
The Power Mac G5. The world's fastest personal computer.
The new Power Mac G5. Engineered for the creative class.
The 64-bit professional dream machine.
Power Mac G5. The power of four.
Room to grow. Introducing Mac Pro.
Professional velocity.
The new Mac Pro. Tower of 8-core power.
The new Mac Pro. Beauty outside. Beast inside.
Mac. To the power of 12.
18. Made in the U.S.A.
Tim Cook says they're working on bringing production of a newer model of one of their current platforms and because the Mac Pro is their lowest volume people are claiming it's the new Mac Pro.
Not so shabby concept of a future Mac Pro. I like the third one.