That's a server, not a workstation. The Mac Pro is not a server, it's a workstation. It would also do you well to check the pricing on that Dell, both the base machine and the upgrades.
It's not a server but uses server class CPUs and can run OS X Server. No reason for Apple to hold back, the Dell PowerEdge T620 starts at $1,199.00 and goes up from there based on configuration (a lot more than 200 configurations BTW)
It's not a server but uses server class CPUs and can run OS X Server. No reason for Apple to hold back, the Dell PowerEdge T620 starts at $1,199.00 and goes up from there based on configuration (a lot more than 200 configurations BTW)
Running OS X Server isn't a valid argument for a machine being server-class considering it's a $20 app available to all Macs.
I even have OS X "Leopard" Server on a decade old iMac that I use only as an iTunes and Time Machine server. ITunes works fine with just Home Sharing to Macs and Apple TV but needed to install Server to get the attached RAID via FW400 to show up as a Time Machine option for the local Macs.
It's not a server but uses server class CPUs and can run OS X Server. No reason for Apple to hold back, the Dell PowerEdge T620 starts at $1,199.00 and goes up from there based on configuration (a lot more than 200 configurations BTW)
You know I used to own an old power edge with 15k SCSI drives and tape backup. It was a retired one, but I used it learn ESXI (still called ESX at the time). It provided a set of certified hardware for the test deployment. Anyway I'm not sure what is relevant between the two. They make what they make. I doubt sales will take off on day 1, but if it shows little growth by day 300 we may not see a version 2.
Running OS X Server isn't a valid argument for a machine being server-class considering it's a $20 app available to all Macs.
Just because the Mac Pro is a considered a "workstation" doesn't mean it can't include server class parts. I would love the option of having redundant power supplies and lights out management and expansion via internal slots versus being limited by Thunderbolt 2 throughput.
Anyway I'm not sure what is relevant between the two. They make what they make. I doubt sales will take off on day 1, but if it shows little growth by day 300 we may not see a version 2.
This is exactly what I'm worried about. Apple slipped up with the cylindrical form factor. Had they gone with a design similar to the Dell PowerEdge T620 they could have both targeted the Pro market and at the same time the server market.
For example I have several Xserves hosting petabytes of storage on XSAN over 10gbe fibre that will need viable replacements in a couple of years.
I'd love to continue running OS X to manage it, but without real server hardware from Apple I may be forced to go the Windows or Linux route with stornext.
Mac Minis wont do the trick as promise thunderbolt to fibre channel adapters are flakey, I have over 100 of these are constantly being RMA'd because of overheating (Internal fibre cards are ALOT more reliable!) Not to mention lack of redundant PSUs and no LOM on the minis.
This is exactly what I'm worried about. Apple slipped up with the cylindrical form factor. Had they gone with a design similar to the Dell PowerEdge T620 they could have both targeted the Pro market and at the same time the server market.
For example I have several Xserves hosting petabytes of storage on XSAN over 10gbe fibre that will need viable replacements in a couple of years.
The problem there is that Apple walked away from both the Xserve and XSAN long ago. I don't remember them offering a fibre channel card as a standard cto option on recent configurations. That to me along with deprecated Xserve support would indicate they're a bad match going forward if you need to run fibre. I don't think it'll get any better as the server market seems to be looking at increased commoditization. Some of the biggest customers build their own or directly contract odms. The oems like server markets due to their margins, but I don't see Apple going after that in its current state. I mean I understand the frustration, but I don't see a good solution for that configuration. Apple's offerings in terms of what can be leveraged as server hardware are better suited to small implementations. They aren't designed with that kind of scalability in mind as a primary use case.
Quote:
Not to mention lack of redundant PSUs and no LOM on the minis.
Most people who don't deal with server hardware are unaware of the typical level of redundancy. I can appreciate the concern. I do think the minis are good for some things. I've suggested them as "good enough" for a lot of tasks. I wouldn't necessarily recommend one in that situation. If we're talking about networked storage and high levels of redundancy, it's not a great solution. I'm still puzzled that they market Raid 5 support on that promise box when the packaged drives don't use the shorter firmware timings. It's one of those areas where I feel like their marketing department won an argument.
Just because the Mac Pro is a considered a "workstation" doesn't mean it can't include server class parts. I would love the option of having redundant power supplies and lights out management and expansion via internal slots versus being limited by Thunderbolt 2 throughput.
Sure, it could include this or this and be marketed in a completely different way, just as Apple could also bring back the Xserve or start making and selling apricot cider, but they don't and nothing says that they are going to. They didn't include rundundant power supplies, LoM, or expansion slots so why argue that they could have?
I'm still puzzled that they market Raid 5 support on that promise box when the packaged drives don't use the shorter firmware timings. It's one of those areas where I feel like their marketing department won an argument.
Oh sure. I was referring to the Promise Pegasus and that they use standard drives. I would want enterprise firmware timings on a Raid 5 setup specifically because they use shorter error recovery timings to prevent controller timeout. Here's a better explanation than my own of the resulting problem.
Quote:
Originally Posted by SolipsismX
Sure, it could include this or this and be marketed in a completely different way, just as Apple could also bring back the Xserve or start making and selling apricot cider, but they don't and nothing says that they are going to. They didn't include rundundant power supplies, LoM, or expansion slots so why argue that they could have?
I would argue that in his position, I wouldn't have confidence in a long term fibre solution from Apple. If an alternative to this was found to be suitable during the time preceding necessary purchase orders, that would be different.
Oh sure. I was referring to the Promise Pegasus and that they use standard drives. I would want enterprise firmware timings on a Raid 5 setup specifically because they use shorter error recovery timings to prevent controller timeout. Here's a better explanation than my own of the resulting problem.
Thanks for the link. I had never heard of this. I have a RAID1+0 setup but I haven't setup a UPS (yet). It's just an iTunes Server and Time Machine backups so I don't consider the likelihood of losing a block on a video or song or having both the RAID and Mac fail in a way that causes an issue but I might as well set it up since I have it.
Battery/UPS: 1 hour battery
Dimensions: W x D x H = 16.48 x 11.25 x 2.2-2.4 inches (or 419 x 286 x 57.9~62.1 mm)
Weight: 5.5 kg or 12.1 lbs
That might be a notebook form factor but on no lap that will be residing.
For the life of me I can't comprehend who would be the target market for this machine. Someone that needs to tout around a test server to show clients? Or is this just a proof-of-concept the company put into production for the hell or it?
Thanks for the link. I had never heard of this. I have a RAID1+0 setup but I haven't setup a UPS (yet). It's just an iTunes Server and Time Machine backups so I don't consider the likelihood of losing a block on a video or song or having both the RAID and Mac fail in a way that causes an issue but I might as well set it up since I have it.
No problem. That's not as severe of an issue with Raid 10, although loss of power would be bad, as it would be unable to flush the controller cache. The problem with Raid 5 in that situation is that it can cause bad parity data to be written or just the issue of drive timeouts resulting in corruption due to an inability to write out cached data. 10 is probably a better idea, as it doesn't have that parity issue.
Quote:
Originally Posted by PhilBoogie
They call that a laptop? Hmm, 'kay.
I'm going to need you to recognize that as a laptop.... mmmkay.
No problem. That's not as severe of an issue with Raid 10, although loss of power would be bad, as it would be unable to flush the controller cache. The problem with Raid 5 in that situation is that it can cause bad parity data to be written or just the issue of drive timeouts resulting in corruption due to an inability to write out cached data. 10 is probably a better idea, as it doesn't have that parity issue.
That's good to hear. I considered the pros and cons of 5 and 10 but decided to give 10 a try for the additional speed even though I'm not really sure it was enough to warrant the halving my total data capacity and reducing my 5-bay RAID to only ever using 4 discs. I ultimately figured that 8TB (on 4xx4TB) of usable storage will last me more than enough years that I won't even consider buying a 5th disc until such time I'll want to invest in a new RAID and new drives.
Or is this just a proof-of-concept the company put into production for the hell or it?
I think the latter. I cannot phantom an IT guy taking this machine from office to office. Do take note that in order to get max performance you need to power this thing with TWO adapters:
Tom's Hardware has the full review, with a Final Thoughts:
Now, we can already predict how the comments for this story are going to look. There will be those who understand where a platform like this makes legitimate sense, whether for desktop-like performance or for making money on the go. Those are the folks Eurocom has in mind when it does something like announce its Panther 5SE mobile server (a concept that still seems strange to us, but is just one step removed from this very similar mobile workstation). It's all about performance and adaptability above all else.
Then there will be the critics who see this system's size, its inelegant dual power adapter setup, its battery life, or even just its price tag and conclude that it doesn't do anything for them. These folks aren't going to be entirely wrong, either. The Panther 5D is undoubtedly a very niche offering for a very specific customer. It's aimed at a narrow group that needs maximum performance in a portable. People outside the target demographic will see overkill.
We used the Panther for a variety of tasks over a couple of months. During the day we worked with video production, photo editing, and software testing. The Panther was great at chewing through hours of sequential video data. After hours, there was a lot more gaming going on. There's a lot to like about the system's headphone output, too. At the end of the day, Eurocom's configuration never let us down in a task that demanded maximum speed. And while its weaknesses are apparent, it does everything else exceedingly well.
That's good to hear. I considered the pros and cons of 5 and 10 but decided to give 10 a try for the additional speed even though I'm not really sure it was enough to warrant the halving my total data capacity and reducing my 5-bay RAID to only ever using 4 discs. I ultimately figured that 8TB (on 4xx4TB) of usable storage will last me more than enough years that I won't even consider buying a 5th disc until such time I'll want to invest in a new RAID and new drives.
That's still a fairly large raid for a single individual. A fifth drive can technically function as a hot spare, but I'm not sure that offers much benefit with your configuration.
Quote:
Originally Posted by SolipsismX
PhilBoogie wrote, "lol, though I prefer the original UK version."
I suspect he's thinking of The Office, as I don't remember one of Office Space. I just really liked that movie. Milton was awesome.
The UK version of The Office. When I was tipped on this series I was told not to watch the US version. As good as a friend she is, I did take a peek, and she was right; I didn't like the US version. Oh well.
I'll check out this movie you've pointed me to; thanks.
edit: incredibly slow today: only now I see that I thought the clip was from the series but turns out to be from the movie. I'll stop posting until I wake up [goes out running, trying to do a half a marathon within 1'40'']
I'll check out this movie you've pointed me to; thanks.
It's a very silly movie, and I used to reference it more often, such as suggesting there was a minimum number of tattoos required to work at the place where I went for a haircut. Perhaps you'll get that joke once you see the movie.
Comments
It's not a server but uses server class CPUs and can run OS X Server. No reason for Apple to hold back, the Dell PowerEdge T620 starts at $1,199.00 and goes up from there based on configuration (a lot more than 200 configurations BTW)
Dell PowerEdge T620 Pricing:
http://www.dell.com/us/business/p/poweredge-t620/pd?~ck=anav
Running OS X Server isn't a valid argument for a machine being server-class considering it's a $20 app available to all Macs.
I even have OS X "Leopard" Server on a decade old iMac that I use only as an iTunes and Time Machine server. ITunes works fine with just Home Sharing to Macs and Apple TV but needed to install Server to get the attached RAID via FW400 to show up as a Time Machine option for the local Macs.
It's not a server but uses server class CPUs and can run OS X Server. No reason for Apple to hold back, the Dell PowerEdge T620 starts at $1,199.00 and goes up from there based on configuration (a lot more than 200 configurations BTW)
Dell PowerEdge T620 Pricing:
http://www.dell.com/us/business/p/poweredge-t620/pd?~ck=anav
You know I used to own an old power edge with 15k SCSI drives and tape backup. It was a retired one, but I used it learn ESXI (still called ESX at the time). It provided a set of certified hardware for the test deployment. Anyway I'm not sure what is relevant between the two. They make what they make. I doubt sales will take off on day 1, but if it shows little growth by day 300 we may not see a version 2.
Which is your favorite/most reliable online retailer for ordering the Mac Pro besides the Apple online store?
I wonder who would ever order it straight from Apple anyway, since they charge sales tax...
Just because the Mac Pro is a considered a "workstation" doesn't mean it can't include server class parts. I would love the option of having redundant power supplies and lights out management and expansion via internal slots versus being limited by Thunderbolt 2 throughput.
This is exactly what I'm worried about. Apple slipped up with the cylindrical form factor. Had they gone with a design similar to the Dell PowerEdge T620 they could have both targeted the Pro market and at the same time the server market.
For example I have several Xserves hosting petabytes of storage on XSAN over 10gbe fibre that will need viable replacements in a couple of years.
I'd love to continue running OS X to manage it, but without real server hardware from Apple I may be forced to go the Windows or Linux route with stornext.
Mac Minis wont do the trick as promise thunderbolt to fibre channel adapters are flakey, I have over 100 of these are constantly being RMA'd because of overheating (Internal fibre cards are ALOT more reliable!) Not to mention lack of redundant PSUs and no LOM on the minis.
This is exactly what I'm worried about. Apple slipped up with the cylindrical form factor. Had they gone with a design similar to the Dell PowerEdge T620 they could have both targeted the Pro market and at the same time the server market.
For example I have several Xserves hosting petabytes of storage on XSAN over 10gbe fibre that will need viable replacements in a couple of years.
The problem there is that Apple walked away from both the Xserve and XSAN long ago. I don't remember them offering a fibre channel card as a standard cto option on recent configurations. That to me along with deprecated Xserve support would indicate they're a bad match going forward if you need to run fibre. I don't think it'll get any better as the server market seems to be looking at increased commoditization. Some of the biggest customers build their own or directly contract odms. The oems like server markets due to their margins, but I don't see Apple going after that in its current state. I mean I understand the frustration, but I don't see a good solution for that configuration. Apple's offerings in terms of what can be leveraged as server hardware are better suited to small implementations. They aren't designed with that kind of scalability in mind as a primary use case.
Most people who don't deal with server hardware are unaware of the typical level of redundancy. I can appreciate the concern. I do think the minis are good for some things. I've suggested them as "good enough" for a lot of tasks. I wouldn't necessarily recommend one in that situation. If we're talking about networked storage and high levels of redundancy, it's not a great solution. I'm still puzzled that they market Raid 5 support on that promise box when the packaged drives don't use the shorter firmware timings. It's one of those areas where I feel like their marketing department won an argument.
Sure, it could include this or this and be marketed in a completely different way, just as Apple could also bring back the Xserve or start making and selling apricot cider, but they don't and nothing says that they are going to. They didn't include rundundant power supplies, LoM, or expansion slots so why argue that they could have?
Could you educate me on this issue?
Could you educate me on this issue?
Oh sure. I was referring to the Promise Pegasus and that they use standard drives. I would want enterprise firmware timings on a Raid 5 setup specifically because they use shorter error recovery timings to prevent controller timeout. Here's a better explanation than my own of the resulting problem.
Sure, it could include this or this and be marketed in a completely different way, just as Apple could also bring back the Xserve or start making and selling apricot cider, but they don't and nothing says that they are going to. They didn't include rundundant power supplies, LoM, or expansion slots so why argue that they could have?
I would argue that in his position, I wouldn't have confidence in a long term fibre solution from Apple. If an alternative to this was found to be suitable during the time preceding necessary purchase orders, that would be different.
Thanks for the link. I had never heard of this. I have a RAID1+0 setup but I haven't setup a UPS (yet). It's just an iTunes Server and Time Machine backups so I don't consider the likelihood of losing a block on a video or song or having both the RAID and Mac fail in a way that causes an issue but I might as well set it up since I have it.
They call that a laptop? Hmm, 'kay.
Battery/UPS: 1 hour battery
Dimensions: W x D x H = 16.48 x 11.25 x 2.2-2.4 inches (or 419 x 286 x 57.9~62.1 mm)
Weight: 5.5 kg or 12.1 lbs
That might be a notebook form factor but on no lap that will be residing.
For the life of me I can't comprehend who would be the target market for this machine. Someone that needs to tout around a test server to show clients? Or is this just a proof-of-concept the company put into production for the hell or it?
Thanks for the link. I had never heard of this. I have a RAID1+0 setup but I haven't setup a UPS (yet). It's just an iTunes Server and Time Machine backups so I don't consider the likelihood of losing a block on a video or song or having both the RAID and Mac fail in a way that causes an issue but I might as well set it up since I have it.
No problem. That's not as severe of an issue with Raid 10, although loss of power would be bad, as it would be unable to flush the controller cache. The problem with Raid 5 in that situation is that it can cause bad parity data to be written or just the issue of drive timeouts resulting in corruption due to an inability to write out cached data. 10 is probably a better idea, as it doesn't have that parity issue.
They call that a laptop? Hmm, 'kay.
I'm going to need you to recognize that as a laptop.... mmmkay.
I'm in far too silly of a mood today.
That's good to hear. I considered the pros and cons of 5 and 10 but decided to give 10 a try for the additional speed even though I'm not really sure it was enough to warrant the halving my total data capacity and reducing my 5-bay RAID to only ever using 4 discs. I ultimately figured that 8TB (on 4xx4TB) of usable storage will last me more than enough years that I won't even consider buying a 5th disc until such time I'll want to invest in a new RAID and new drives.
I think the latter. I cannot phantom an IT guy taking this machine from office to office. Do take note that in order to get max performance you need to power this thing with TWO adapters:
Tom's Hardware has the full review, with a Final Thoughts:
Are you thinking of [I][URL=http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0386676/]The Office[/URL][/I] or was there a UK version of the movie [I][URL=http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0151804/]Office Space[/URL][/I]?
That's good to hear. I considered the pros and cons of 5 and 10 but decided to give 10 a try for the additional speed even though I'm not really sure it was enough to warrant the halving my total data capacity and reducing my 5-bay RAID to only ever using 4 discs. I ultimately figured that 8TB (on 4xx4TB) of usable storage will last me more than enough years that I won't even consider buying a 5th disc until such time I'll want to invest in a new RAID and new drives.
That's still a fairly large raid for a single individual. A fifth drive can technically function as a hot spare, but I'm not sure that offers much benefit with your configuration.
PhilBoogie wrote, "lol, though I prefer the original UK version."
Are you thinking of The Office or was there a UK version of the movie Office Space?
I suspect he's thinking of The Office, as I don't remember one of Office Space. I just really liked that movie. Milton was awesome.
The UK version of The Office. When I was tipped on this series I was told not to watch the US version. As good as a friend she is, I did take a peek, and she was right; I didn't like the US version. Oh well.
I'll check out this movie you've pointed me to; thanks.
edit: incredibly slow today: only now I see that I thought the clip was from the series but turns out to be from the movie. I'll stop posting until I wake up [goes out running, trying to do a half a marathon within 1'40'']
I'll check out this movie you've pointed me to; thanks.
It's a very silly movie, and I used to reference it more often, such as suggesting there was a minimum number of tattoos required to work at the place where I went for a haircut. Perhaps you'll get that joke once you see the movie.