Samsung planning to one-up Apple's Touch ID with iris scanner in Galaxy S5

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  • Reply 81 of 186
    mknopp wrote: »
    I actually think that a combination of iris scanner and fingerprint scanning is what smartphones need, so I am looking forward to seeing this come to smartphones, if for no other reason than it will hopefully kick Apple in the rear to implementing it on their iPhones.

    Yes, iris scans are not as convenient as fingerprint scans, but they are also more secure. People leave their fingerprints all over the place when they touch things. Heck, they leave their fingerprints on the very device that they are trying to secure. The iris doesn't leave anything behind when it looks at something.

    A combination is perfect because touchID is quick and easy and doesn't require you to look at your device. However, it isn't as secure as an iris scan. For that reason, I could see a touchID used to unlock your device and a quick iris scan to perform an payment or something requiring something more secure than using a fingerprint left everywhere you touch.


    That being said, this isn't going to be as easy as this article makes it sound. While, smartphones have the camera of resolution necessary to do iris scanning, the best iris scanners look at both real light and infrared images for recognition. Thus, the phones would have to be able to record infrared, which is usually not a big deal.

    That being said, the component of all this that I see Samsung having the most trouble with is the secure part of the processor. Apple added an entire secure section to their processor, just to deal with security and the touchID. Samsung is going to have to do the same or it won't be nearly as secure and less useful. I don't know that they are to that point yet.

    Either way, I do have to applaud Samsung for once. Yeah, I know:  <img alt="" class="lightbox-enabled" data-id="37124" data-type="61" src="http://forums.appleinsider.com/content/type/61/id/37124/width/350/height/700/flags/LL" style="; width: 350px; height: 194px">


    In the long run this move will force other companies, including Apple to up their security on their devices and iris scanning is perfect for the most secure features of a smartphone.

    Good read!

    I highlighted the security part for discussion. Yes... I leave fingerprints everywhere... but I used to leave my phone unlocked too. It's security vs convenience. Now my phone can be easily unlocked by me.... but it keeps out 99.999% of common theives.

    Apple knows the fingerprint scanner can be duped (most of them can) but I guess they think it's better than nothing.

    I remember that one article where they spent 24 hours in a controlled lab experiment to crack the fingerprint scanner. They succeeded... but only when they started with a fresh fingerprint purposely left on a clean glass bottle. I haven't heard of an iPhone 5S being unlocked by fooling the fingerprint scanner in the real world. I just Googled it and only found that same article from September 2013.

    Plus... the thieves still have to break the passcode before it locks them out after 5 tries... and do all this before the owner wipes the phone remotely. Phew... it's a bad time to be an iPhone 5S thief.

    If TouchID is already nearly impossible to crack... I don't see why you'd need any extra protection from iris scanning.

    I suspect Samsung is going down this route because Apple bought up all the fingerprint tech. What else is Samsung gonna do?
  • Reply 82 of 186
    dasanman69dasanman69 Posts: 13,002member
    apple ][ wrote: »
    I doubt that this has anything to do with security. It's probably a useless, cheap gimmick that doesn't work very good, just like the face recognition crap turned out to be.

    I also believe that Android users in general do not care too much about security, and I also believe that most of them do not have much worth protecting in the first place.

    What kind of dumb crook or hacker would want to gain access to an average Android user's phone? Where is the value there? What is to be gained? We are talking about the same people here who don't even want to pay for WIFI access on flights, and the same people who put the C in cheap, with a capital C. Really, what is to be gained from stealing an Android phone? A bunch of debt? A negative bank balance? Their welfare checks? Do many Android users even have a bank account? An Iris scanner on an Android device sounds like a huge waste.

    There is a reason why Apple devices are the most in demand devices for thieves to steal. 

    Except that this tech like this would not be on a phone that the so called average Android user is going to buy. It will be on a high end device that more affluent users will buy and will have data worth protecting.
  • Reply 83 of 186

    So a couple things, First this feature IF even included may not be primarily designed to unlock the device.  It could function as an additional security feature to lock specific apps or files.  

     

    Also this feature if included will certainly not be required and will easily be deactivated.  Samsung is known for their half baked features and as a previous S4 owner I can confirm that almost all of them were garbage.  That said I think that Samsung is going to try and avoid rolling out more half baked features as they have recently said they are focusing on getting back to basics.

    http://www.engadget.com/2014/01/09/samsung-promises-a-back-to-basics-rethink-for-the-galaxy-s5/  

     

    Competition is great and pushes the entire market forward.  Let's at least wait and see how well this works (if real) before we dismiss it.  I assume that this has been in the works for a while and isn't a direct response to TouchID (I hope as it would be truly half baked)

     

    Who knows maybe they will make a feature that actually works well as opposed to all the stupid things they crammed into the S4 and Note 3 that don't really work well at all.

  • Reply 84 of 186
    lkrupplkrupp Posts: 10,315member

    This stunning innovation may finally push me over the edge to switch platforms. Samsung really has it’s act together¡¡¡¡¡¡¡

     

    No.

  • Reply 85 of 186
    apple ][apple ][ Posts: 9,233member
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by SolipsismX View Post





    Why are you so quick to be dismissive? And do you really believe that Android don't have bank accounts, or if they do have a negative balance, and are on welfare? You don't give those that tend to prefer Apple's products a good name.





    PS: Here is what Steve Jobs has to say:

    Why am I so quick to be dismissive of a new Samsung feature? Past experience and Samsung's history, that's why. There is no evidence that I see for me to think that this feature is nothing but a cheap gimmick.

     

    As for Android users' financial standing, I have seen all of the charts and statistics that have come out these past years, and they almost all point towards the same conclusion.

  • Reply 86 of 186
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by dasanman69 View Post





    Except that this tech like this would not be on a phone that the so called average Android user is going to buy. It will be on a high end device that more affluent users will buy and will have data worth protecting.

    Can we just stop pretending that people can't afford a $199 phone ever two years.  In the united states almost everyone that isn't homeless can easily buy a new high end device that is subsidized by a carrier.  And more recently T-Mobile now allows you to purchase all phones with zero out of pocket cost up front.  

     

    Many I-phones uses are no more affluent then the population of smart phone users as a whole.  Just go to a high school or college where nearly every person carries an Iphone and isn't even employed.

     

    Android users like apple users are a diverse group they aren't all poor.  I am a previous S4 owner and cost wasn't a consideration at all.  I bought it 100% based on the fact that I preferred the screen size.  I like many android users have just as much if not more money then any Iphone user.  I buy all my phones outright without carrier subsidies and last time I looked (a few month) several phones cost more then the iphone. 

  • Reply 87 of 186
    apple ][apple ][ Posts: 9,233member
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by dasanman69 View Post





    Except that this tech like this would not be on a phone that the so called average Android user is going to buy. It will be on a high end device that more affluent users will buy and will have data worth protecting.

     

    There is a difference between a "high-end" Android device and the average Android phones that are dumped on people.

     

    I'll give you that, you are correct.

  • Reply 88 of 186
    mknoppmknopp Posts: 257member
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by petri View Post









    Except for its image on anything set up to record it. You need physical access to lift a fingerprint, but the very existence of Samsung's scanner (if it does exist) shows you can easily scan and copy someone's iris from a distance.



    According to research, a good quality image of the iris is all you need to fool most iris scanners - and the way cameras are getting, that could mean just cropping your photo from Facebook.

     

    Just how old is the research you are referencing? Iris scanners have been able to flag a static image as a fake for a long time now. In fact, flagging it as a fake is as easy as using a short video clip to make sure that they eye is alive by watching for slight contraction and expansion of the iris as the scan is taking place, and this isn't even accounting for the combining of a color image with an infrared image, which shows different patterns than real light and avoids problems with specular reflection.

     

    The biggest issue that iris scanners are dealing with now is trying to distinguish between a real eye and a high definition video of a person's eye. Even that has led to looking for sync effects resulting between the refresh rates of monitors and the capture rate of the video device. I am not sure how these high end monitors deal with presenting one image in real color and a different image in IR. The paper on it didn't mention it.

     

    So, what we are looking at now for a spoof is a close up high definition video or a person's eye in both color and IR presented to the camera of the phone on a high dpi monitor capable of displaying different images in different wavelengths.

     

    Doable, but your contention that any old photo of a person's eye would fool an iris scanner is about two decades out of date.

  • Reply 89 of 186
    icoco3icoco3 Posts: 1,474member
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by KPOM View Post

     

     

    I can count on one hand how many times Touch ID has actually worked for me in the last 2 months. It refuses to even scan my fingerprints now.


     

    Setup multiple profiles for each finger you use.  I have 3 for each thumb and it works great.

  • Reply 90 of 186

    I use both hands and multiple fingers with the 5s and it works 99% of the time

     

    As someone experienced with biometric time clocks I can tell you it is a million % better than finger print scanners I have used and better that the facial clocks we use now

     

    I want that technology in a time clock

  • Reply 91 of 186
    jason98jason98 Posts: 768member
    So unlike fingerprint sensor iris scan requires phone to be pulled out of a pocket. Or I guess it is not a problem for Galaxy, as it would not fit a pocket anyways.
  • Reply 92 of 186
    solipsismxsolipsismx Posts: 19,566member
    mknopp wrote: »
    I actually think that a combination of iris scanner and fingerprint scanning is what smartphones need, so I am looking forward to seeing this come to smartphones, if for no other reason than it will hopefully kick Apple in the rear to implementing it on their iPhones.

    Yes, iris scans are not as convenient as fingerprint scans, but they are also more secure. People leave their fingerprints all over the place when they touch things. Heck, they leave their fingerprints on the very device that they are trying to secure. The iris doesn't leave anything behind when it looks at something.

    A combination is perfect because touchID is quick and easy and doesn't require you to look at your device. However, it isn't as secure as an iris scan. For that reason, I could see a touchID used to unlock your device and a quick iris scan to perform an payment or something requiring something more secure than using a fingerprint left everywhere you touch.

    Yes, we do leave our fingerprints all over the place but you don't have to use the underside tips of your fingers. A knuckle on the finger works just as well. If you really care about security and don't mind an ever so slightly unnatural usage to unlock your device you can use a part of your skin that you aren't leaving around.

    That said, this really isn't an issue for a multitude of reasons that range from a thief stealing your device is likely a crime of opportunity to Apple's use of TouchID is to get those that didn't have pass codes set before to finally using them without being too inconvenienced by the security. Apple wasn't trying to design a Leviathan series bank vault with the Malbolge programming language. For those that do care about security more than the average person you can change your 4 digit PIN to a proper, alphanumeric password, which is what I did.

    There is also an issue with blanket statements that iris scans are more secure than fingerprints. It can't be stated in such simple terms. For instance, AuthenTec doesn't just read a fingerprint but also reads the dermis which isn't left anywhere. So how was TouchID technically broken in an ideal environment? That is probably down to how in-depth the authentication Apple was willing to make to obtain a given security level. Apple states TouchID is 5x more secure it than a 4-digit PIN, plus after a few bad tries the system then forces you to use your passcode to access the system and re-enable TouchID.

    Another way of looking at it is if I were to say that Samsung requires a 10-digit PIN for their phones. Is that more secure than a 4-digit PIN? Most would say yes, but what if I then told you that only 2 of the numbers have to be correct for it to authenticate you. With biometrics that's what we're dealing with and the more exacting the match the more processing it has to do.

    IOW, how sensitive will an Iris scanner have to be to read your iris while in your hand 18" away from your face in a natural position which is also a pretty severe angle for it to work as well as TouchID? How long will the processing take? You already mentioned Samsung will have trouble with the secure HW enclave, but what about processing this data so that it's even close to being as fast as TouchID? Security is always at odds with convenience.
  • Reply 93 of 186
    Go back to design basics, code for "we need to copy Apple better". Whenever we get too different our sales suffer. Hhmmm.
  • Reply 94 of 186
    dasanman69dasanman69 Posts: 13,002member
    2385amh wrote: »
    Can we just stop pretending that people can't afford a $199 phone ever two years.  In the united states almost everyone that isn't homeless can easily buy a new high end device that is subsidized by a carrier.  And more recently T-Mobile now allows you to purchase all phones with zero out of pocket cost up front.  

    Many I-phones uses are no more affluent then the population of smart phone users as a whole.  Just go to a high school or college where nearly every person carries an Iphone and isn't even employed.

    Android users like apple users are a diverse group they aren't all poor.  I am a previous S4 owner and cost wasn't a consideration at all.  I bought it 100% based on the fact that I preferred the screen size.  I like many android users have just as much if not more money then any Iphone user.  I buy all my phones outright without carrier subsidies and last time I looked (a few month) several phones cost more then the iphone. 

    First I'm not the one pretending, but the fact remains that a great deal if not most Android devices are sold by carriers that don't subsidize phones and are either prepaid or contract free thus any subscriber would have to either buy a preowned phone or at full retail.
  • Reply 95 of 186
    aeleggaelegg Posts: 99member
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by TheDBA View Post

     

    I love it when some say that it will force Apple to do something.

     

    Historically speaking Apple is the company that marches to its own drumbeat.

    exhibit A: What did computers look like before the Macintosh

    exhibit B: What did music players look like before the iPod

    exhibit C: How did we listen to music before iTunes

    exhibit D: How did smartphones function, if you can call it that, before the iPhone

    exhibit E: What were tablets before the iPad

     

    So whose example is Apple supposed to follow again?




    I agree with everything you're saying here.  Instead of "forcing" Apple to do something, it might be more accurate to say,

     

    "If Samsung gets this to work, it might add to the body of knowledge on Mobile Security, which is good for everyone."

     

    F Samsung by the way.

  • Reply 96 of 186
    philboogiephilboogie Posts: 7,674member
    solipsismx wrote: »
    Has anyone produced a successful iris scanner biometric?

    Started using it 12 years ago at my airport, along with Priority Parking:
    http://www.schiphol.com/Travellers/AtSchiphol/Privium/Privium/IrisScans.htm
  • Reply 97 of 186
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by dasanman69 View Post





    First I'm not the one pretending, but the fact remains that a great deal if not most Android devices are sold by carriers that don't subsidize phones and are either prepaid or contract free thus any subscriber would have to either buy a preowned phone or at full retail.

    In the United states specifically this is not true at all, which is why I said in the U.S. in my post.  Verizon, Att, Tmobile, and Sprint all subsidize and account for about 99% of US smartphone owners.

     

    And What am I pretending about exactly?  

  • Reply 98 of 186
    mknoppmknopp Posts: 257member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by jason98 View Post



    So unlike fingerprint sensor iris scan requires phone to be pulled out of a pocket. Or I guess it is not a problem for Galaxy, as it would not fit a pocket anyways.

     

    Yes, and if it is the only security feature it will also require you to hold it up in front of your face to unlock it.

     

    So, how long after Samsung releases this until they are sued because someone walks into something while trying to unlock their smartphone on it blocked their field of view?

     

    To be clear, while I like the idea of an iris scanner as a security feature, it is abysmal for the more mundane and frequently used security features handled much better by the TouchID. A phone whose only biometric security feature is iris scanning is a no go from the start, even if a company can overcome all of the other hurdles.

     

    Oh, and while I was trying to find an article about a study done in an Israeli hosptial where they used smartphones to take iris scans of mothers and newborns to make sure that the right mother takes the right baby I came across even more features of existing systems to avoid the spoofing of an iris system by any sort of image or even video. One system tracked the natural movement of the eye as the person being scanned read a line of text. Now, couple that with a randomly appearing image on a smartphone's screen and that would be almost impossible to spoof.

     

    Another very interesting find was a report on Softpedia entitled "“Biometric” iPhone 6 to Sport Iris Scanner and Huge 5.7-Inch Screen – Report" which six days ago stated that a Foxconn leak stated that the iPhone 6 would have iris scanning capabilities. And given that TouchID has already taken care of most of the hard work of doing this, I wouldn't be surprised to see Apple come out with a truly functional version before Samsung.

  • Reply 100 of 186
    tallest skiltallest skil Posts: 43,388member
    Originally Posted by PhilBoogie View Post


     

    If I owned the restaurant, I’d petition to have the street on which it’s located renamed to “Hard Way” and then open another branch on some other street.

     

    That way, to distinguish franchises, you’d have to answer, “Fuk Mi, Hard Way; how may we serve you?”

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