Mostly I want to hear the answer to Sinewave's innovation question.
What has MS innovated?
Not DOS - see QDOS
Not Office - bought from outside
Not IE - bought from outside
Not the Windows GUI - hello? They had access as a developer to Mac OS source code for the interface so they could develop for it.
Not 802.11 [AirPort - Apple and Lucent]
Not 1394 [FireWire Apple and some other people]
Not CD ROM support - Windows still treats bootable CDs as floppies ... does that even make sense?
So yeah, I am lost, was Outlook developed by MS? Its not really innovative at all, but it would be something, was the NT kernel done in house? Those two I honestly don't know about.</strong><hr></blockquote>
more? ok ... here is some more stuff that we all use everyday that MS did not make. Anyone care to tell me where each of these was innovated, I honestly don't know for all of them, just a portion.
IM
web browsing
networking, including local talk, ethernet, and TCP/IP
desktop printing
post script
browser frames
FTP
USB
USB 2.0
SCSI
3.5" floppies
MP3 - if anyone claims that WMP is an innovation I will simply not respond.
multimedia [the ability to play video and sound - QT was the first consumer app to do so]
portable computing
PDAs
DVD ROM or DVD anything actually
HWR
network printing
audio editing
photo and video editing
wireless modems
irDA
CD burning
RISC
CISC
WYSIWYG
drag and drop
plug and play - still is not in Windows: bah you say? no, see plug and play means I plug it in and it works, not I plug it in and get a setup screen because Windows recognizes new hardware.
<strong>NT was a joint project between MS and IBM. IBM left the game around OS/2 3.x-ish I believe, correct me if I'm wrong.
MS had a large part in TCP/IP as well.
IE and Office are now far different from what they started off as.
The Windows UI is very different from the MacOS's UI.
And WM files are an innovation of sorts, smaller and better than mp3 files.
The majority of that stuff I don't even understand why you put on the list, it looks like you just started naming computer-related things.</strong><hr></blockquote>
And all of these things are NOT innovations. They are copies of technologies that all ready existed. Again.. MS and Innovate are two words that don't belong together.
Hell MS's first OS wasn't even their Idea.. they had to buy someone else's and sold it off like it was there own. And MS hasn't stopped this practice since.
You have no substantiation for that fecal matter dripping off of your keyboard, sinewave.
Microsoft innovates as much as Apple does. ( <-- You should like that, it's a general sweeping statement impossible to verify except with semantic jousting, right up your alley)
<strong>You have no substantiation for that fecal matter dripping off of your keyboard, sinewave.
Microsoft innovates as much as Apple does. ( <-- You should like that, it's a general sweeping statement impossible to verify except with semantic jousting, right up your alley)
</strong><hr></blockquote>
Maybe in your rose colored glasses word grover. But NOT in reality.
TCP/IP was not MS, it was open source UNIX well prior to Microsoft including any kind of networking in 3.1.1.
Office and IE are not innovations in any way that I can tell, please clarify.
The fact that Windows and Macintosh GUIs are different I do not understand to be innovation either, my point was that MS did not make the first GUI available to the consumer, Apple did. Nor did MS make the first GUI, Xerox did. Please clarify your inferred claim that the MS GUI is innovative because it is different from Macintosh.
And you've already made my case for me, I made a list up there and you disregarded it with no facts and one vague statement.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Cause NON of them where innovations from MS grover. Did you want me to go at them one by one and say "not a innovation by MS" what that have made it better? I mean if that is all the better you can do then you proved my point.
MS hardly.. if ever innovates. The ride the coat tails of technology.
Apple brought the first GUI to the consumer? Perhaps. MS brought the first GUI to the masses if you want to look at it that way.
It's a rediculous and stupid argument.
Why is NT not an MS innovation?
Why not WindowsMedia formats?
Why not Remote Assistance? or the taskbar? or auto-updating operating systems? or consumer multiple user systems? or the first easy-to-use server platform? blah blah blah
[quote]Did Microsoft start selling OSX discs or are you a moron? <hr></blockquote>
Microsoft has everything to gain from Apple increasing market share. They make more money off Office than their OS. If their .NET strategy goes through, their going to make money of you no matter which platform you use.
[quote] 2) It's far more than a word processor, that might be all YOU use it for. <hr></blockquote>
This isn't only about about what the program is actually used for. It's about the fact that Microsoft has done about all they can do with a program which manipulates text and numbers in some fashion or another (with limited graphics handling). Unless they are able to come up with some fancy ass new features, which push that gotta have it button, they are going to be selling less and less of the suite. Office XP was already the let down of the year .. followed closely by XP itself, M$ needs more cash cows.
[quote] Do you disagree with my statement that Microsoft charges more for OS upgrades than Apple because Apple makes its money off of hardware? <hr></blockquote>
No, I'm saying that because of this, Apple has more to gain from writing better software than Microsoft would.
[quote] That's a joke.
The personal computing market as we see it today existed before Windows? Macs may have been out but their prohibitively high cost kept them from spreading like wildfire. <hr></blockquote>
No ... THAT'S a joke. Microsoft isn't responsible for cheap hardware ... thats from IBM licensing the hardware to 3rd party manufactures. Microsoft had NOTHING to do with the price of hardware. If anything, they slowed the sales of computers by failing to release an easy intuative GUI before 1995.
[quote]90+% of the world uses Windows, are you blind? <hr></blockquote>
Really? Are you sure?!
Thanks for the insight, Captain Obvious.
[quote] Sounds like sour grapes from someone who devotes way too much to a company that isn't taken seriously by people who do serious work. <hr></blockquote>
Well, despite my "blind" devotion towards Apple, I know one thing ... If I had to fill an office building with computers, I would choose Wintels. But I don't necessarily think that because of this, the 3000 receptionists, accountants, lawyers using them are doing anything more "serious", simply because they are using a platform which is popular for programs which don't really make the CPU work to any great extent.
[quote]It also shows a dramatic lack of knowledge on your part about what Microsoft does and what Microsoft offers.
<hr></blockquote>
In my previous post, I have already stated my "failure to see any contributions" made by the software manufacture currently being discussed. I also stated "Your lack of examples" to the contrary ...... if you are going to use my ignorance as your defence, your arguements are even weaker then they appear.
You'll have to forgive my failure to see M$ contributions to personal computing .. but hey, it's not like they won an Emmy for it or anything.
With accordance to the thread however, almost every company in the IT sector is guilty of compromising technology for their personal gain, as well as preventing competing technologies from making it to market. It doesn't matter if your Sony, 3com, HP, IBM or Apple ... everyone is looking out for themselves. Look at all of the DVD formats ... who in the hell was looking out for the consumer there? This goes back at least as far as Thomas Edison who pushed D/C over A/C because it was D/C which he had the patents to. , even though it was inferior. George Lucas is pulling the same kind of bullshit with his version of digital film ... it ?ucking sucks compared to some alternatives, but it's going to go through, because he has the cash to push it. This is also the case in sectors which actually have an impact on human lives ... like disease research and drug patents. If your going to punish M$ for hurting consumers, Mr. Gates is going to have to get in line.
Secondly, Personal computing is worth 100's of billions ... this isn't kindergarden where everyone has to share and play nice. Microsoft made the OS, they can put anything they want on it, they knew the risks. M$ has risked enough by compromising their software in order to accomplish this. Compromised to the point where Apple will be cemented in some of the most lucrative industries for the next ten years ... easy.
[ 12-06-2001: Message edited by: the cool gut ]</p>
<strong>Apple brought the first GUI to the consumer? Perhaps. MS brought the first GUI to the masses if you want to look at it that way.<hr></blockquote></strong>
That's isn't innovation. That is just copying some one else's idea and giving it out to more people.
[quote]<strong>
It's a rediculous and stupid argument.
<hr></blockquote></strong>
You made rediculous and stupid statements
[quote]<strong>
Why is NT not an MS innovation?<hr></blockquote></strong>
As far as I know MS didn't event the Operating System.
[quote]<strong>
Why not WindowsMedia formats?<hr></blockquote></strong>
Formats that are copies of other formats based on a technology they didn't innovate. That isn't innovation.
[quote]<strong>
Why not Remote Assistance? or the taskbar? or auto-updating operating systems? or consumer multiple user systems? or the first easy-to-use server platform? blah blah blah<hr></blockquote></strong>
These where all there before Windows. Remote Assistance isn't a MS invention. The taskbar is just some one else's innovation that MS redid. Blah indeed.
<strong> [quote]
What has Apple "innovated"?</strong><hr></blockquote>
Comments
<strong>OK, I am back, I just can't stay away.
Mostly I want to hear the answer to Sinewave's innovation question.
What has MS innovated?
Not DOS - see QDOS
Not Office - bought from outside
Not IE - bought from outside
Not the Windows GUI - hello? They had access as a developer to Mac OS source code for the interface so they could develop for it.
Not 802.11 [AirPort - Apple and Lucent]
Not 1394 [FireWire Apple and some other people]
Not CD ROM support - Windows still treats bootable CDs as floppies ... does that even make sense?
So yeah, I am lost, was Outlook developed by MS? Its not really innovative at all, but it would be something, was the NT kernel done in house? Those two I honestly don't know about.</strong><hr></blockquote>
I'd like to hear more, please continue.
Oh wait Sun had that idea first.
IM
web browsing
networking, including local talk, ethernet, and TCP/IP
desktop printing
post script
browser frames
FTP
USB
USB 2.0
SCSI
3.5" floppies
MP3 - if anyone claims that WMP is an innovation I will simply not respond.
multimedia [the ability to play video and sound - QT was the first consumer app to do so]
portable computing
PDAs
DVD ROM or DVD anything actually
HWR
network printing
audio editing
photo and video editing
wireless modems
irDA
CD burning
RISC
CISC
WYSIWYG
drag and drop
plug and play - still is not in Windows: bah you say? no, see plug and play means I plug it in and it works, not I plug it in and get a setup screen because Windows recognizes new hardware.
hell ... sound on a computer
well ... is that enough for tonite?
MS had a large part in TCP/IP as well.
IE and Office are now far different from what they started off as.
The Windows UI is very different from the MacOS's UI.
And WM files are an innovation of sorts, smaller and better than mp3 files.
The majority of that stuff I don't even understand why you put on the list, it looks like you just started naming computer-related things.
And MS has been rumored to be trying to supplant TCP/IP, if you have some magical evidence to show that they helped create it please post it.
Here are links to speculation of MS fighting TCP/IP - why? Cause its not theirs.
<a href="http://www.macobserver.com/editorial/2001/08/07.1.shtml"; target="_blank">http://www.macobserver.com/editorial/2001/08/07.1.shtml</a>;
<a href="http://www.pbs.org/cringely/pulpit/pulpit20010802.html"; target="_blank">http://www.pbs.org/cringely/pulpit/pulpit20010802.html</a>;
As far as NT goes, I would honestly be happy for any links just because I don't know anything of where it came from.
But regarding Office, IE, and Windows - the criteria was did they innovate it, not is it different now from how it was earlier on, everything changes.
An Office suite is not an innovation, nor was a web browser years after Mosaic, or the Windows GUI a really innovative improvement over Mac OS.
[ 12-04-2001: Message edited by: Bogie ]</p>
<strong>NT was a joint project between MS and IBM. IBM left the game around OS/2 3.x-ish I believe, correct me if I'm wrong.
MS had a large part in TCP/IP as well.
IE and Office are now far different from what they started off as.
The Windows UI is very different from the MacOS's UI.
And WM files are an innovation of sorts, smaller and better than mp3 files.
The majority of that stuff I don't even understand why you put on the list, it looks like you just started naming computer-related things.</strong><hr></blockquote>
And all of these things are NOT innovations. They are copies of technologies that all ready existed. Again.. MS and Innovate are two words that don't belong together.
Microsoft innovates as much as Apple does.
We'll see who has a longer .... list.
Up to the challenge?
All the things I list will be disregarded.
All the things you list will be held up.
Oh yes, sounds very constructive.
<strong>You have no substantiation for that fecal matter dripping off of your keyboard, sinewave.
Microsoft innovates as much as Apple does.
Maybe in your rose colored glasses word grover. But NOT in reality.
<strong>*puts on prediction hat*
All the things I list will be disregarded.
All the things you list will be held up.
Oh yes, sounds very constructive.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Sounds like the smell of defeat to me.
How can a smell sound like something?
"Hmm, that tastes like the look of fear!"
And you've already made my case for me, I made a list up there and you disregarded it with no facts and one vague statement.
TCP/IP was not MS, it was open source UNIX well prior to Microsoft including any kind of networking in 3.1.1.
Office and IE are not innovations in any way that I can tell, please clarify.
The fact that Windows and Macintosh GUIs are different I do not understand to be innovation either, my point was that MS did not make the first GUI available to the consumer, Apple did. Nor did MS make the first GUI, Xerox did. Please clarify your inferred claim that the MS GUI is innovative because it is different from Macintosh.
<strong>
How can a smell sound like something?
"Hmm, that tastes like the look of fear!"
And you've already made my case for me, I made a list up there and you disregarded it with no facts and one vague statement.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Cause NON of them where innovations from MS grover. Did you want me to go at them one by one and say "not a innovation by MS" what that have made it better? I mean if that is all the better you can do then you proved my point.
MS hardly.. if ever innovates. The ride the coat tails of technology.
It's a rediculous and stupid argument.
Why is NT not an MS innovation?
Why not WindowsMedia formats?
Why not Remote Assistance? or the taskbar? or auto-updating operating systems? or consumer multiple user systems? or the first easy-to-use server platform? blah blah blah
What has Apple "innovated"?
Microsoft has everything to gain from Apple increasing market share. They make more money off Office than their OS. If their .NET strategy goes through, their going to make money of you no matter which platform you use.
[quote] 2) It's far more than a word processor, that might be all YOU use it for. <hr></blockquote>
This isn't only about about what the program is actually used for. It's about the fact that Microsoft has done about all they can do with a program which manipulates text and numbers in some fashion or another (with limited graphics handling). Unless they are able to come up with some fancy ass new features, which push that gotta have it button, they are going to be selling less and less of the suite. Office XP was already the let down of the year .. followed closely by XP itself, M$ needs more cash cows.
[quote] Do you disagree with my statement that Microsoft charges more for OS upgrades than Apple because Apple makes its money off of hardware? <hr></blockquote>
No, I'm saying that because of this, Apple has more to gain from writing better software than Microsoft would.
[quote] That's a joke.
The personal computing market as we see it today existed before Windows? Macs may have been out but their prohibitively high cost kept them from spreading like wildfire. <hr></blockquote>
No ... THAT'S a joke. Microsoft isn't responsible for cheap hardware ... thats from IBM licensing the hardware to 3rd party manufactures. Microsoft had NOTHING to do with the price of hardware. If anything, they slowed the sales of computers by failing to release an easy intuative GUI before 1995.
[quote]90+% of the world uses Windows, are you blind? <hr></blockquote>
Really? Are you sure?!
Thanks for the insight, Captain Obvious.
[quote] Sounds like sour grapes from someone who devotes way too much to a company that isn't taken seriously by people who do serious work. <hr></blockquote>
Well, despite my "blind" devotion towards Apple, I know one thing ... If I had to fill an office building with computers, I would choose Wintels. But I don't necessarily think that because of this, the 3000 receptionists, accountants, lawyers using them are doing anything more "serious", simply because they are using a platform which is popular for programs which don't really make the CPU work to any great extent.
[quote]It also shows a dramatic lack of knowledge on your part about what Microsoft does and what Microsoft offers.
<hr></blockquote>
In my previous post, I have already stated my "failure to see any contributions" made by the software manufacture currently being discussed. I also stated "Your lack of examples" to the contrary ...... if you are going to use my ignorance as your defence, your arguements are even weaker then they appear.
You'll have to forgive my failure to see M$ contributions to personal computing .. but hey, it's not like they won an Emmy for it or anything.
With accordance to the thread however, almost every company in the IT sector is guilty of compromising technology for their personal gain, as well as preventing competing technologies from making it to market. It doesn't matter if your Sony, 3com, HP, IBM or Apple ... everyone is looking out for themselves. Look at all of the DVD formats ... who in the hell was looking out for the consumer there? This goes back at least as far as Thomas Edison who pushed D/C over A/C because it was D/C which he had the patents to. , even though it was inferior. George Lucas is pulling the same kind of bullshit with his version of digital film ... it ?ucking sucks compared to some alternatives, but it's going to go through, because he has the cash to push it. This is also the case in sectors which actually have an impact on human lives ... like disease research and drug patents. If your going to punish M$ for hurting consumers, Mr. Gates is going to have to get in line.
Secondly, Personal computing is worth 100's of billions ... this isn't kindergarden where everyone has to share and play nice. Microsoft made the OS, they can put anything they want on it, they knew the risks. M$ has risked enough by compromising their software in order to accomplish this. Compromised to the point where Apple will be cemented in some of the most lucrative industries for the next ten years ... easy.
[ 12-06-2001: Message edited by: the cool gut ]</p>
<strong>Apple brought the first GUI to the consumer? Perhaps. MS brought the first GUI to the masses if you want to look at it that way.<hr></blockquote></strong>
That's isn't innovation. That is just copying some one else's idea and giving it out to more people.
[quote]<strong>
It's a rediculous and stupid argument.
<hr></blockquote></strong>
You made rediculous and stupid statements
[quote]<strong>
Why is NT not an MS innovation?<hr></blockquote></strong>
As far as I know MS didn't event the Operating System.
[quote]<strong>
Why not WindowsMedia formats?<hr></blockquote></strong>
Formats that are copies of other formats based on a technology they didn't innovate. That isn't innovation.
[quote]<strong>
Why not Remote Assistance? or the taskbar? or auto-updating operating systems? or consumer multiple user systems? or the first easy-to-use server platform? blah blah blah<hr></blockquote></strong>
These where all there before Windows. Remote Assistance isn't a MS invention. The taskbar is just some one else's innovation that MS redid. Blah indeed.
<strong> [quote]
What has Apple "innovated"?</strong><hr></blockquote>
Well hell.. they made the first PC as we know it.
[ 12-06-2001: Message edited by: Sinewave ]</p>