Your personal needs. Don’t you dare even try to question that.
Wrong. My personal needs never even came up. You have no idea what my personal needs even are.
The "your personal needs" thing is just a typical troll tactic designed to steer the conversation away from whatever is actually being discussed, and derail it into a discussion about whoever's making a point you don't like. It's irritating, and insipid.
So your point is meaningless and has nothing to do with what we’re discussing.
Meaning of course, that you can't get any of them if you want to have a monitor.
The MBPs has 2 TB ports on them. That means you can have one port for your external drive and the other for your monitor. But all that is beside the point because if you want to daisy chain then you buy peripherals that are designed to be daisy chained.
The MacBook Air and the non-Retina MBP only have one Thunderbolt port. The only model that has two is the Retina machine, which is definitely a minority.
Even the Retinas can easily have one of the ports taken up by the FireWire or Ethernet adapter (neither of which, of course, has more than one TB port).
That means you can have one port for your external drive and the other for your monitor. But all that is beside the point because if you want to daisy chain then you buy peripherals that are designed to be daisy chained.
Which don't even exist for a lot of market segments, and are a tiny minority in the segments where they do.
The MacBook Air and the non-Retina MBP only have one Thunderbolt port. The only model that has two is the Retina machine, which is definitely a minority.
Even the Retinas can easily have one of the ports taken up by the FireWire or Ethernet adapter (neither of which, of course, has more than one TB port).
Which don't even exist for a lot of market segments, and are a tiny minority in the segments where they do.
Again, not true, but you bring up a good point about a FW adapter so go ahead and daisy chain all your old FW peripherals if you don't want to by any TB peripherals.
Imagine if instead of this, Intel announced a new $5 Thunderbolt cables and dirt cheap licensing. How excited would you be then?
You are bitching about a $30 cable? Oh God, don't get a high end audio system, you'll have a heart attack if you saw the prices of MIT, Transparent, Wireworld, or any number of brands of audio cables. And whatever you read, CABLES can and do make a difference. And no, digital signals are NOT 1's and 0's, they are electronic pulses that are changing VERY quickly and noise can effect how well it transmits data. The quality of the connectors and termination (how they are soldered together) can also make a difference in the reliability of the connection.
I did a little test of several different brands of USB cables, one of which was a lower end Audioquest cable and ran BlackMagicDesign Speed Test against an El Cheapo USB cable and there was a different in the average read and write tests on the cables I tested, so anyone that tells you there is no difference in the quality of a cable is full of it.
BTW, Thunderbolt has some electronics embedded in the connectors, which makes them more expensive to mfg. and they aren't made at the same level of production in cheap cable mfg plants like USB. I don't even know why ANYONE would complain over a relatively cheap cable. That's just nit picking and you should probably just be using a $250 Chromebook for all of your computing needs if the price of a Thunderbolt cable is too much for you.
I got a Drobo Mini and it came with both a USB 3 and Thunderbolt cable and I ran BlackMagicDesign Speed Test between the two and Thunderbolt was twice as fast for both read and write.
If there was a $5 Thunderbolt cable I would stay away from it because I would probably have to replace it, which costs more than $5 just in time to order it or go to a local store to buy a second one, or third one.
Cheap electronics and cables will typically have cheap solder and more expensive cables will have lead free higher content silver solder. At least that's what they do in the higher end audio/video cables. If you ever go into researching what these higher end cable mfg do to design a cable, then you might realize why they cost more.
If there were Thunderbolt DAC for the high end audio market, I'm sure there would companies that would come out with exceedingly expensive cables that actually might get better performance because they would remove all forms of noise to ensure proper data transmission. Either way, try an El Cheapo cable and then try a higher end audio cable and run some speed tests, see if you see any difference. Obviously, I only tested two cables so test results with be different depending on the brand and model cable tested, but I did my own test and saw a dramatic difference in just USB cables. Plus the more expensive models I get have a lifetime warranty and they are WELL constructed and are built to last, as long as you don't abuse the thing.
We don't need 40 GBps, what we need is more Thunderbolt products, more affordable Thunderbolt products and Thunderbolt should have been reversible from day one.
I doubt this will see the light of day for many years to come. I wouldn't worry about it. By the time they bring it to market, they'll have a need for it.
What part's not true? The part about the MacBook Air having only one port, the part about the non-Retina MacBook Pro having only one port, or the fact that Retina MBPs are a minority amongst Mac laptops?
I doubt this will see the light of day for many years to come.
I don't think that's the real point here. I think Intel leaked this because in a couple of months we're going to start hearing about the availability of 'PCI outside the Box', which is said to have the advantages of Thunderbolt with far less cost.
I think this smells like a timed leak designed to distract and dissuade from a serious potential competitor.
I don't think that's the real point here. I think Intel leaked this because in a couple of months we're going to start hearing about the availability of 'PCI outside the Box', which is said to have the advantages of Thunderbolt with far less cost.
I think this smells like a timed leak designed to distract and dissuade from a serious potential competitor.
I think they are just leaking the potential specs and that actual chips aren't even available for mfg to even test. Didn't it say that this might not even hit the consumer market?
I know they are trying to get full PCI outside the box, but again, I wouldn't get all up in arms about it. Intel is not going to put this out on the market just yet.
The MBPs has 2 TB ports on them. That means you can have one port for your external drive and the other for your monitor. But all that is beside the point because if you want to daisy chain then you buy peripherals that are designed to be daisy chained.
You can daisy chain a drive with two Thunderbolt ports and then go out to the monitor. That's the intent. Monitors is actually using the Display Port spec which falls under the Thunderbolt spec. But if you get a drive with two TB ports, you can daisy chain many devices and then use the Monitor as the last device on the chain if you choose. Many different options available.
What part's not true? The part about the MacBook Air having only one port, the part about the non-Retina MacBook Pro having only one port, or the fact that Retina MBPs are a minority amongst Mac laptops?
I hate to disappoint, but here's my home setup:
Two Thunderbolt Displays, the second one plugged into the first one.
My network cable is plugged into the first monitor, as well as all the USB peripherals.
When I get home, I have to plug only 3 cables in my laptop:
- Thunderbolt to the monitor
- Power cord, again coming from the TB display.
- Audio cable, as I use external audio system.
What I'm left with is the second Thunderbolt 2 port on my MBP, and another one on the back of the second TB Display.
With the new TB I will have to plug in only one cable as it will provide enough power to charge the laptop.
So, I start with two TB ports, add two monitors, 1Gbps network, a few USB devices, and end up with two TB ports. How is this not daisy-chaining?
Should Apple add audio output to the new TB Displays, I will have a single cable to plug in everything I need, and still have the two TB ports.
I hate to disappoint, but here's my home setup:
Two Thunderbolt Displays, the second one plugged into the first one.
My network cable is plugged into the first monitor, as well as all the USB peripherals.
When I get home, I have to plug only 3 cables in my laptop:
- Thunderbolt to the monitor
- Power cord, again coming from the TB display.
- Audio cable, as I use external audio system.
What I'm left with is the second Thunderbolt 2 port on my MBP, and another one on the back of the second TB Display.
<span style="font-size:16px;line-height:1.4em;">With the new TB I will have to plug in only one cable as it will provide enough power to charge the laptop.</span>
So, I start with two TB ports, add two monitors, 1Gbps network, a few USB devices, and end up with two TB ports. How is this not daisy-chaining?
Should Apple add audio output to the new TB Displays, I will have a single cable to plug in everything I need, and still have the two TB ports.
You could add audio output by plugging in a $5 USB audio adapter into the USB port of one of the TB displays. How does that answer the question you quoted, or anything else I posted for that matter?
You could add audio output by plugging in a $5 USB audio adapter into the USB port of one of the TB displays. How does that answer the question you quoted, or anything else I posted for that matter?
Forget the audio cable, I just wanted to describe in detail my setup. It requires a single TB port to work.
So, what's your point with not having multiple TB ports? Not possible to daisy-chain your microwave and the bath tub? Thunderbolt targets specific performance requirements, it is not intended to replace the USB.
That's impressive, capsicum. Mind-blowing amount of data flowing through one or two cables. I was just thinking about this as I was helping my sister move. Comcast, DVD player, flat screen tv. Two HDMI cables. I can remember not long ago the component cable nightmare.
This thunderbolt stuff will come down in price. The cable pricing doesn't seem excessive to me, even now. Hell, I'm tickled every time I copy something to my 2 TB external drive which uses USB 3.
It seemed like regular consumers were stuck at a few MB / second for so long. Now we're really ratcheting that up even with common USB protocols. The speeds being discussed via Thunderbolt just blow my mind.
Wow, dramatic improvements. The Mac will truly have the best ports of any computer. Which matches nicely with the best screens, best keyboard, best software
You will put your laptop down on your desk, and a single cable will go to the monitor, which will have drives attached, and will also charge the laptop back along the cable. No separate power connector on the laptop, even when on the road and using an external power supply, it will just plug in to one of the Thunderbolt ports.
That would be one thing if TB didn't double as the display port, or if TB supported a star topology. But as it is, connecting most TB devices permanently blocks you from ever connecting a display (barring Apple's incredibly outdated and expensive one) without throwing away your incredibly expensive TB device. The single chipset reduces the cost, but not nearly by enough.
The idea that anyone would put two of the extremely expensive TB chips in a product when they could just use the dual chipset is insane.
Really. Can you find a two-port equivalent of the Echo ExpressCard adapter? I'd be extremely impressed.
Too esoteric for you? Okay, let's look for the most basic of devices — a single-bay bare Thunderbolt dock with two ports on it. I found this and this and this and this and this. What do they all have in common? Only one port. Meaning of course, that you can't get any of them if you want to have a monitor.
This kind of problem never happened with FireWire. The only FW devices I ever saw with only one port were camcorders, which were never devices you'd permanently attach to your computer. Everything else always had the two ports, and even if they hadn't, it wouldn't have mattered, because FireWire actually had hubs and didn't tie up your display port. It was also a lot cheaper than TB is, but so is everything.
What exactly is the point you're trying to make? That Thunderbolt isn't as inexpensive as you think it should be or that TB wasn't engineered the way you think it should've been? (If so, please do share with us your alternative design that would meet the same performance and functionality goals.) That the less expensive TB controller has lesser feature set? That some accessory manufacturers aren't using all of Thunderbolt's features or functionality?
"Most" TB devices don't permanently block you from connecting a DisplayPort display. As a matter of fact, I just listed 12 that don't to your 6 that do.
Prepare to be impressed - as per your request, a two-port equivalent of the Echo Expresscard adapter - put these together:
Did every single FW-enabled device always include 2 ports (yes I know, you were very clever with the "...that I ever saw..." qualification)? That's a pretty bold claim, especially in light of this (maybe it's the only one ever?):
If you want a stripped down, lowest common denominator drive [enclosure] with a cheap connection fabric to store mp3's & vacation pictures on, that's what USB3 is designed for.
You're making claims, but you're not backing them up. In fact, you're being given factual information to refute your claims. You're either ignorant, or you're deliberately being obtuse - or maybe a simple google search too esoteric for you? Want a storage enclosure with 2 Thunderbolt ports, then here you go:
The fact that almost all Thunderbolt devices are priced right out of the market…
They are not priced out of the market, as I said immediately in reply to this post, long ago. They are priced out of YOUR market.
You have no idea what my personal needs even are.
Nor do I care. I do know, however, that they do not include Thunderbolt, and therefore any comment on your part regarding it is merely ‘uninterested bystander’ levels of engagement.
No. The cables are fine. I can buy them at any Apple Store. I am bitching that I have nothing to plug them into because the cost of both the cables and the interfaces make Thunderbolt a niche market. Try buying an empty Thunderbolt drive enclosure for example. How about one of those devices that let you drop in 3.5 or 2.5 inch drives? What is available is vastly over priced due to the niche size of the market. The Chinese can't be bothered to make anything in volume for low prices because their margins are razor thin so they make USB 3.0 devices instead. Thunderbolt is a failed interface standard even more so than Firewire before it.
Comments
The "your personal needs" thing is just a typical troll tactic designed to steer the conversation away from whatever is actually being discussed, and derail it into a discussion about whoever's making a point you don't like. It's irritating, and insipid. Only if you don't know how to read and/or think.
The MBPs has 2 TB ports on them. That means you can have one port for your external drive and the other for your monitor. But all that is beside the point because if you want to daisy chain then you buy peripherals that are designed to be daisy chained.
Even the Retinas can easily have one of the ports taken up by the FireWire or Ethernet adapter (neither of which, of course, has more than one TB port).
Which don't even exist for a lot of market segments, and are a tiny minority in the segments where they do.
Again, not true, but you bring up a good point about a FW adapter so go ahead and daisy chain all your old FW peripherals if you don't want to by any TB peripherals.
Imagine if instead of this, Intel announced a new $5 Thunderbolt cables and dirt cheap licensing. How excited would you be then?
You are bitching about a $30 cable? Oh God, don't get a high end audio system, you'll have a heart attack if you saw the prices of MIT, Transparent, Wireworld, or any number of brands of audio cables. And whatever you read, CABLES can and do make a difference. And no, digital signals are NOT 1's and 0's, they are electronic pulses that are changing VERY quickly and noise can effect how well it transmits data. The quality of the connectors and termination (how they are soldered together) can also make a difference in the reliability of the connection.
I did a little test of several different brands of USB cables, one of which was a lower end Audioquest cable and ran BlackMagicDesign Speed Test against an El Cheapo USB cable and there was a different in the average read and write tests on the cables I tested, so anyone that tells you there is no difference in the quality of a cable is full of it.
BTW, Thunderbolt has some electronics embedded in the connectors, which makes them more expensive to mfg. and they aren't made at the same level of production in cheap cable mfg plants like USB. I don't even know why ANYONE would complain over a relatively cheap cable. That's just nit picking and you should probably just be using a $250 Chromebook for all of your computing needs if the price of a Thunderbolt cable is too much for you.
I got a Drobo Mini and it came with both a USB 3 and Thunderbolt cable and I ran BlackMagicDesign Speed Test between the two and Thunderbolt was twice as fast for both read and write.
If there was a $5 Thunderbolt cable I would stay away from it because I would probably have to replace it, which costs more than $5 just in time to order it or go to a local store to buy a second one, or third one.
Cheap electronics and cables will typically have cheap solder and more expensive cables will have lead free higher content silver solder. At least that's what they do in the higher end audio/video cables. If you ever go into researching what these higher end cable mfg do to design a cable, then you might realize why they cost more.
If there were Thunderbolt DAC for the high end audio market, I'm sure there would companies that would come out with exceedingly expensive cables that actually might get better performance because they would remove all forms of noise to ensure proper data transmission. Either way, try an El Cheapo cable and then try a higher end audio cable and run some speed tests, see if you see any difference. Obviously, I only tested two cables so test results with be different depending on the brand and model cable tested, but I did my own test and saw a dramatic difference in just USB cables. Plus the more expensive models I get have a lifetime warranty and they are WELL constructed and are built to last, as long as you don't abuse the thing.
We don't need 40 GBps, what we need is more Thunderbolt products, more affordable Thunderbolt products and Thunderbolt should have been reversible from day one.
I doubt this will see the light of day for many years to come. I wouldn't worry about it. By the time they bring it to market, they'll have a need for it.
I doubt this will see the light of day for many years to come.
I don't think that's the real point here. I think Intel leaked this because in a couple of months we're going to start hearing about the availability of 'PCI outside the Box', which is said to have the advantages of Thunderbolt with far less cost.
I think this smells like a timed leak designed to distract and dissuade from a serious potential competitor.
I don't think that's the real point here. I think Intel leaked this because in a couple of months we're going to start hearing about the availability of 'PCI outside the Box', which is said to have the advantages of Thunderbolt with far less cost.
I think this smells like a timed leak designed to distract and dissuade from a serious potential competitor.
I think they are just leaking the potential specs and that actual chips aren't even available for mfg to even test. Didn't it say that this might not even hit the consumer market?
I know they are trying to get full PCI outside the box, but again, I wouldn't get all up in arms about it. Intel is not going to put this out on the market just yet.
The MBPs has 2 TB ports on them. That means you can have one port for your external drive and the other for your monitor. But all that is beside the point because if you want to daisy chain then you buy peripherals that are designed to be daisy chained.
You can daisy chain a drive with two Thunderbolt ports and then go out to the monitor. That's the intent. Monitors is actually using the Display Port spec which falls under the Thunderbolt spec. But if you get a drive with two TB ports, you can daisy chain many devices and then use the Monitor as the last device on the chain if you choose. Many different options available.
What part's not true? The part about the MacBook Air having only one port, the part about the non-Retina MacBook Pro having only one port, or the fact that Retina MBPs are a minority amongst Mac laptops?
I hate to disappoint, but here's my home setup:
Two Thunderbolt Displays, the second one plugged into the first one.
My network cable is plugged into the first monitor, as well as all the USB peripherals.
When I get home, I have to plug only 3 cables in my laptop:
- Thunderbolt to the monitor
- Power cord, again coming from the TB display.
- Audio cable, as I use external audio system.
What I'm left with is the second Thunderbolt 2 port on my MBP, and another one on the back of the second TB Display.
With the new TB I will have to plug in only one cable as it will provide enough power to charge the laptop.
So, I start with two TB ports, add two monitors, 1Gbps network, a few USB devices, and end up with two TB ports. How is this not daisy-chaining?
Should Apple add audio output to the new TB Displays, I will have a single cable to plug in everything I need, and still have the two TB ports.
You could add audio output by plugging in a $5 USB audio adapter into the USB port of one of the TB displays. How does that answer the question you quoted, or anything else I posted for that matter?
Forget the audio cable, I just wanted to describe in detail my setup. It requires a single TB port to work.
So, what's your point with not having multiple TB ports? Not possible to daisy-chain your microwave and the bath tub? Thunderbolt targets specific performance requirements, it is not intended to replace the USB.
That's impressive, capsicum. Mind-blowing amount of data flowing through one or two cables. I was just thinking about this as I was helping my sister move. Comcast, DVD player, flat screen tv. Two HDMI cables. I can remember not long ago the component cable nightmare.
This thunderbolt stuff will come down in price. The cable pricing doesn't seem excessive to me, even now. Hell, I'm tickled every time I copy something to my 2 TB external drive which uses USB 3.
It seemed like regular consumers were stuck at a few MB / second for so long. Now we're really ratcheting that up even with common USB protocols. The speeds being discussed via Thunderbolt just blow my mind.
Wow, dramatic improvements. The Mac will truly have the best ports of any computer. Which matches nicely with the best screens, best keyboard, best software
You will put your laptop down on your desk, and a single cable will go to the monitor, which will have drives attached, and will also charge the laptop back along the cable. No separate power connector on the laptop, even when on the road and using an external power supply, it will just plug in to one of the Thunderbolt ports.
So it isn't just the Samsung articles that get people arguing...
Anyways...just bought a rMBP 15...and I'm mad at myself for waiting so long.
So the faster we get more affordable accessories the better. :-)
That would be one thing if TB didn't double as the display port, or if TB supported a star topology. But as it is, connecting most TB devices permanently blocks you from ever connecting a display (barring Apple's incredibly outdated and expensive one) without throwing away your incredibly expensive TB device. The single chipset reduces the cost, but not nearly by enough.
The idea that anyone would put two of the extremely expensive TB chips in a product when they could just use the dual chipset is insane.
Really. Can you find a two-port equivalent of the Echo ExpressCard adapter? I'd be extremely impressed.
Too esoteric for you? Okay, let's look for the most basic of devices — a single-bay bare Thunderbolt dock with two ports on it. I found this and this and this and this and this. What do they all have in common? Only one port. Meaning of course, that you can't get any of them if you want to have a monitor.
This kind of problem never happened with FireWire. The only FW devices I ever saw with only one port were camcorders, which were never devices you'd permanently attach to your computer. Everything else always had the two ports, and even if they hadn't, it wouldn't have mattered, because FireWire actually had hubs and didn't tie up your display port. It was also a lot cheaper than TB is, but so is everything.
What exactly is the point you're trying to make? That Thunderbolt isn't as inexpensive as you think it should be or that TB wasn't engineered the way you think it should've been? (If so, please do share with us your alternative design that would meet the same performance and functionality goals.) That the less expensive TB controller has lesser feature set? That some accessory manufacturers aren't using all of Thunderbolt's features or functionality?
"Most" TB devices don't permanently block you from connecting a DisplayPort display. As a matter of fact, I just listed 12 that don't to your 6 that do.
Prepare to be impressed - as per your request, a two-port equivalent of the Echo Expresscard adapter - put these together:
http://www.siig.com/pcie-to-expresscard-adapter.html
http://www.magma.com/expressbox-1t
Did every single FW-enabled device always include 2 ports (yes I know, you were very clever with the "...that I ever saw..." qualification)? That's a pretty bold claim, especially in light of this (maybe it's the only one ever?):
http://www.startech.com/HDD/Enclosures/25in-USB-FireWire-SATA-External-Hard-Drive-Enclosure~SAT2510U2F
If you want a stripped down, lowest common denominator drive [enclosure] with a cheap connection fabric to store mp3's & vacation pictures on, that's what USB3 is designed for.
You're making claims, but you're not backing them up. In fact, you're being given factual information to refute your claims. You're either ignorant, or you're deliberately being obtuse - or maybe a simple google search too esoteric for you? Want a storage enclosure with 2 Thunderbolt ports, then here you go:
(1 bay)
http://www.lacie.com/us/products/product.htm?id=10621
http://www.promise.com/storage/raid_series.aspx?region=en-US&m=1170&rsn1=49&rsn3=62
(1 bay + optical + multi-interface adapter(s))
http://www.sonnettech.com/product/echo15thunderboltdock.html
(2 bay)
http://www.startech.com/HDD/Enclosures/Thunderbolt-Drive-Enclosure-2-bay~S252SMTB3
http://www.akitio.com/portable-storage/neutrino-thunder-duo
(4/6 bay)
http://www.promise.com/storage/raid_series.aspx?m=192®ion=en-global&rsn1=40&rsn3=47
Other 2-port TB devices of various types to daisy-chain:
http://www.lacie.com/us/products/product.htm?id=10574
http://www.blackmagicdesign.com/products/ultrastudiothunderbolt/
http://www.belkin.com/us/p/P-F4U055/
http://www.elgato.com/en/thunderbolt/thunderbolt-dock
http://www.akitio.com/accessories/thunder-dock
http://www.seagate.com/external-hard-drives/desktop-hard-drives/backup-plus-desk-mac-thunderbolt/#specs
They explicitly came up. Right here:
They are not priced out of the market, as I said immediately in reply to this post, long ago. They are priced out of YOUR market.
Nor do I care. I do know, however, that they do not include Thunderbolt, and therefore any comment on your part regarding it is merely ‘uninterested bystander’ levels of engagement.
That’d be cute if you were correct.
You are bitching about a $30 cable?
No. The cables are fine. I can buy them at any Apple Store. I am bitching that I have nothing to plug them into because the cost of both the cables and the interfaces make Thunderbolt a niche market. Try buying an empty Thunderbolt drive enclosure for example. How about one of those devices that let you drop in 3.5 or 2.5 inch drives? What is available is vastly over priced due to the niche size of the market. The Chinese can't be bothered to make anything in volume for low prices because their margins are razor thin so they make USB 3.0 devices instead. Thunderbolt is a failed interface standard even more so than Firewire before it.