As a big proponent of the larger screen since way back when you were called a troll for uttering such a thing, I bought and returned the 6 because I liked the IDEA of using a large iphone, but the reality once having iny hands and pockets is its not for ME. I personally think the device is too big and probably not break with my active lifestyle. There is also no way I could take it to the gym like I do my 5 or the 5s I exchanged it for. For most people the 6 is the perfect size, I just hope the 7 comes in and additional smaller size.
Is it too expensive to offer 3 sizes? I have to think there would be demand for a "regular" size phone and guarantee Samsung will run one out to try and get any market share they can.
I'm sticking with my 4S until it no longer receives OS updates, but I've convinced my partner to switch from a 2010 2.5" phone running Android 2, and she's decided it'll be the iPhone 6 so I'm sure I'll get some opportunities to see what it's like.
I've never used a case on my phones as I like the design too much to ruin it (I like sleek and hate silicone rubber) but being careful with it has kept it in nearly perfect condition.
My preferred way of holding my 4S one-handed for lengthy web browsing and reading is to either rest it on three fingers with the little finger supporting the bottom of the case (portrait) or to cradle the top and bottom between index and little finger with the other two resting gently on the back (landscape).
I have just today been into the Apple Store to try out the new iPhones first hand for first time, and I was pleasantly surprised to find that the phones didn't seem as "large and unwieldy" as I had expected, once trying them in person. Perhaps all of the media hype and back-and-forth on this site on the size had me expecting the 6+ to be a beast, but it was elegant. I just have my iPhone 5s from last fall (through work), so won't be upgrading this time anyways, but I look forward to the 4.7" version next year.
To share my experience, I thought both phones were gorgeous - best "smart phones" I have ever seen. The screens look phenomenal, with the glass blending over to meet the rounded edges, noticeable thinner than my 5s, with a great finish. Compared with all other phones I have seen over last year or so via friends (S4 & S5, BBZ10 & Z30, Note 3), I can honestly say they are no where near as attractive as the iPhone 6/6+. The 6 is the size for me going forward, as I do enjoy the one-handed operation, and while there is some slight compromise there (thumb can't hit the far left upper corner without shifting standard grip), it was a compromise I am willing to make to get the greater screen real-estate for my ageing eyes:). I would do what is suggested by others, and put the least used icons up top for that reason.
The 6+ I thought was great (again, far better than my expectations), and if my usage wasn't primarily around 1-handed use, and fact that I almost always carry in pants (jeans) pocket, I would get the 6+. Yes, it is substantially bigger, but if you are a 2-handed user most of the time anyways, and have the pockets or bag to carry it, it is just a dream to handle. It is very light, with an amazing screen, and the feeling with 2 hands is bang on. While I normally prefer a silver/gold model, I think the black/space gray might have an edge for the larger phone visually. Only Apple will know of course, but I expect the 6+ to be a very good seller for those who want perhaps a single device. I think Apple was very smart to offer a 5.5" - even if I won't buy one. It will definitely eat into the sales from Samsung, HTC, Moto, etc, and all by charging more money and giving a nice shift to the ASP.
That being said, I think Apple should continue the 4" size in some manner going forward. I think 3 sizes is easy for Apple to handle, now that iOS & the developer kits are able to support these multiple sizes with scaling. If iOS8 can work on the three sizes now, Apple should use that advantage, for a few reasons. One is that clearly a large % of users today prefer that size, so why not keep that (sizeable) portion very happy. Second, as we saw the with larger phones (and waterproof ones, and early LTE, etc), the other vendors always try to provide something that Apple does not at the given time (most of they have to do that). Thus if Apple were to take away the 4" (smaller) segment over time, there is the possibility that the other handset vendors will try to "differentiate" by going smaller again, and trying to court that crowd. Apple has no reason to give up territory that they now own. Finally, it can give Apple a means to differentiate better on price, which has always been the issue with calling for the "lower cost" iPhone.
While they could just package the new technology into all 3 sizes going forward, its isn't clear how they would manage the lower cost models as they do today. Perhaps they might try an approach of taking the previous year's tech and putting that into the 4" model - so the 4" is always one generation behind the flagships, and then the "c" version with plastic case becomes the lowest cost, as is today. So flagships are always the "larger 2", but the 4" gets that the next year. Not everyone will agree with that of course, but just a thought as to what Apple "might do" to manage the price tiering.
Great job, Neil. I'd say "helpful" but my debate continues. You have really captured my concerns with the 6. Because the 5s changes weren't compelling enough, I've maintained my 4s, which now feels like it's reaching end of life. The 6 was wat too monsterous to consider (I was able to try to use a demo model on launch day); however, after trying the 6 %u2014 and finding it also to be a 2-handed phone %u2014 I'm reconsidering the 6 . I may just ride it out another year.
Nope, not going to happen. The 4" size is outdated. Time to move on.
Its time to produce that 4" next gen phone asap or lose me as a customer. Atleast other phone manufacturers have smaller phones so theres still hope on this matter. And I feel 100% the same on the fact that Cook just dropped the ball. You have to be bold sometimes. Looking at the comments most commenters feel very much the same way about abandoning the 4" size...
Nope, not going to happen. The 4" size is outdated. Time to move on.
Its time to produce that 4" next gen phone asap or lose me as a customer. Atleast other phone manufacturers have smaller phones so theres still hope on this matter. And I feel 100% the same on the fact that Cook just dropped the ball. You have to be bold sometimes. Looking at the comments most commenters feel very much the same way about abandoning the 4" size...
Quite.
I have yet to test the 6, so I may still get it. But at the moment, I may well stick this year out with my 5, which would be unprecedented, as I have always updated every two years on contract.
If the iPad didn't exist, I would almost certainly have upgraded immediately, and quite possibly even to the 6 Plus. But ever since I got the wondrous iPad back in 2010, the iPhone has been the second class citizen. I think that's partly why I'm so down on the upcoming ?Watch. It seems crazy to me that Apple are cramming as much as possible into it on a tiny screen, which inevitably invites unflattering comparison to the iPhone and especially the iPad.
I find the advertising on Apple's website telling. They have started using huge, outsize photos for the iPhone, but also for the ?Watch. So, of course, everything looks lovely and clear on a big screen. It's also directly in your field of vision. It'll be a shock to see the real thing much smaller and at the side of your vision.
Yeah it's funny because I've always used Android phones. Motorola Droid (1), HTC Thunderbolt and now a Samsung GS3. Over the years, I've learned my lesson on screen sizes and 1-handed usability.
Basically I've been wrong all along, using my wife's 4S showed me how poorly designed my Android phones have been.
Now, the iPhone is the same way. I was intending to move to the iPhone, because I'm convinced the software and hardware quality is superior to any Android handset on the market, and honestly, always has been.
But I'm in a wait-and-see holding pattern with my GS3. Get a 5S and invest in iOS, when iPhones may be permanently abandoning sense with dropping the 4" screensize? Or stick with Android where I can at least find 4" phones, and likely will continue to always, just at the standard lower refinement that naturally comes with Android handsets by nature.
Honestly, between my preference for Apple's quality and give-a-damn they put into their product... and having a 4", one handed device, I'd choose the 4" even if it is Android. Which I was hoping to drop finally.
So there we have it. But the suggestion that 4" screens are "so not 2014" is ridiculous and the most childish thing I've heard. It's a design decision. Maybe in 2017, a 5.5" phone will be "so 2014" and everyone will be stuffing 15" phones into their pockets like a bunch of fools.
I think many, if not all people who realize how good of a design the 3.5-4" smartphone design was (and always will be), and it will be back. It's just going to take time for people to realize that Steve Jobs had a laboratory of engineers to find this out, before he even launched the product. Much faster than the average stupid consumer will require to figure it out. Which may be 10 years.
It's not like Steve Jobs didn't have the money to produce any size device he wanted to. He just had sensibility and a vision. Most consumers don't have that, they are attracted to shiny objects with bright screens as I was with my GS3.
I was wrong. Now so is Apple. I want an iPhone 6S or I can't ditch Android.
I think many, if not all people who realize how good of a design the 3.5-4" smartphone design was (and always will be), and it will be back. It's just going to take time for people to realize that Steve Jobs had a laboratory of engineers to find this out, before he even launched the product. Much faster than the average stupid consumer will require to figure it out. Which may be 10 years.
It's not like Steve Jobs didn't have the money to produce any size device he wanted to. He just had sensibility and a vision. Most consumers don't have that, they are attracted to shiny objects with bright screens as I was with my GS3.
In a way I am happy Apple did release the 6+ this year (only). Appleinsider is a quieter place now ... common sense will come back. The presence of the phablet will be short lived anyway, Continuity is going to save us
I am eagerly awaiting the iPhone mini next year. 3.5 inch, 4 inch or in between, as long as it is not bigger than 4 inch. It'd be the perfect companion for my 7.9 inch ... iPad mini.
In a way I am happy Apple did release the 6+ this year (only). Appleinsider is a quieter place now ... common sense will come back. The presence of the phablet will be short lived anyway, Continuity is going to save us
I am eagerly awaiting the iPhone mini next year. 3.5 inch, 4 inch or in between, as long as it is not bigger than 4 inch. It'd be the perfect companion for my 7.9 inch ... iPad mini.
So, all of those on AI who felt the need to defend a smaller iPhone as Scamsung released larger ones are bitching now about the 6 Plus... and certainly, they are bitching! How then is AI quieter? It could have been because those who wanted a larger iPhone now had nothing to bitch about but this wasn't to be, it's the turn of the small phone crowd. Where's the common sense in that?
Speaking from an outsiders perspective (I believe I did more than a necessary introduction in my last post), but whose household does have a 4S..
I think the 6+ was a good idea, they needed to get that out. My wife is buying a 6+ because she puts her phone in her purse. Some people do shove Notes and 6+'s in their pockets, but they don't love doing it.
To ruin the normal iPhone that everyone loves was a huge mistake.
Now, that won't stop people from buying them. Sales numbers will prove nothing other than that they've built quite a name for themselves. Some will make excuses for Apple, a minority of men will say it works for them due to having gorilla hands, most women will suffer with it quietly.
Ideally, Apple would have the 6+ for those who want it like my wife. I asked her to hold off on purchasing the Note3 she wanted just to wait for Apple's version. So we are buying a 6+.
But moving the regular iPhone to the 4.7" form factor was a mistake. People who are buying the iPhone6 would've been happy with the 2 choices of 4" and 5.5". At most this is what Steve would've done.
So now while my wife is getting a 6+, I'm back into a holding pattern with a GS3 I just do not love due to the 'just big enough to be awkward' size that the iPhone6 shares now. My guess is that Apple will release an iPhone6S.
i agree. but i think apple can/should offer 3 sizes of full featured phones & a cheapo version of the most popular size. I really hope they dont abandon the smaller form factor phones. i really did not care for the 6 or the 6+ as they are too big for my liking in everyday one-handed use out of my pocket. the wife loves them & is trying to decide between the 6 or the plus (which she was dead set on until she saw how big the 6 was).
Speaking from an outsiders perspective (I believe I did more than a necessary introduction in my last post), but whose household does have a 4S..
I think the 5+ was a good idea, they needed to get that out. My wife is buying a 5+ because she puts her phone in her purse. Some people do shove Notes and 6+'s in their pockets, but they don't love doing it.
To ruin the normal iPhone that everyone loves was a huge mistake.
Now, that won't stop people from buying them. Sales numbers will prove nothing other than that they've built quite a name for themselves. Some will make excuses for Apple, a minority of men will say it works for them due to having gorilla hands, most women will suffer with it quietly.
Ideally, Apple would have the 6+ for those who want it like my wife. I asked her to hold off on purchasing the Note3 she wanted just to wait for Apple's version. So we are buying a 6+.
But moving the regular iPhone to the 4.7" form factor was a mistake. People who are buying the iPhone6 would've been happy with the 2 choices of 4" and 5.5". At most this is what Steve would've done.
So now while my wife is getting a 5+, I'm back into a holding pattern with a GS3 I just do not love due to the 'just big enough to be awkward' size that the iPhone6 shares now. My guess is that Apple will release an iPhone6S.
I for sure don't like my new iPhone 6 (yet). It's too big for my hands. A phone should focus on usability first and I feel Apple didn't care about this too much, or else they would have provided a smaller 6 and the 6+ for people who are okay with a tablet like phone. I personally use an iPad for a tablet experience.
It's also very slippery. I think a naked phone should not be slippery
The phone feels like a Samsung clone (pun intended).
I for sure don't like my new iPhone 6 (yet). It's too big for my hands. A phone should focus on usability first and I feel Apple didn't care about this too much, or else they would have provided a smaller 6 and the 6+ for people who are okay with a tablet like phone.
I personally use an iPad for a tablet experience.
It's also very slippery. I think a naked phone should not be slippery
The phone feels like a Samsung clone (pun intended).
The phone feels like a Samsung clone (pun intended).
Not sure how that is possible, since Apple uses aluminium and has a thinner phone, whereas Samsung uses plastic with a thicker phone.
I've just been to an Apple Store to see the new iPhones.
I'm disappointed. The screens are lovely. The 6 actually seems more vivid than the 6 Plus. I love the Zoom function. But the design? I hate the back—the antenna bands look bad. I really hate the camera lens sticking out—it's awful. The phone is so light, it feels cheap.
It's so thin. I placed it on its screen and tried picking it up. It was quite tricky, and I could easily imagine dropping it. When I turned it over in my hand, I almost dropped it. The rounded corners are nice, but there's not much difference in the comfort compared to the 5. It's on the iPad where the rounded corners would make a difference, I imagine, because of the extra weight.
The glass on the front is unusual, the way it curves round. I'm not sure I like it, though. It seems rather flimsy.
I could live with the size of the 6; it went in my pockets okay, though I didn't try my smaller pockets, which it would probably stick out of. One-handed use seemed fine for the brief time I used it.
It doesn't wow me. It doesn't feel or look like a premium Apple product. At the moment, I'm going to wait for the 6s and see if anything changes.
Comments
For most people the 6 is the perfect size, I just hope the 7 comes in and additional smaller size.
I've never used a case on my phones as I like the design too much to ruin it (I like sleek and hate silicone rubber) but being careful with it has kept it in nearly perfect condition.
My preferred way of holding my 4S one-handed for lengthy web browsing and reading is to either rest it on three fingers with the little finger supporting the bottom of the case (portrait) or to cradle the top and bottom between index and little finger with the other two resting gently on the back (landscape).
I have just today been into the Apple Store to try out the new iPhones first hand for first time, and I was pleasantly surprised to find that the phones didn't seem as "large and unwieldy" as I had expected, once trying them in person. Perhaps all of the media hype and back-and-forth on this site on the size had me expecting the 6+ to be a beast, but it was elegant. I just have my iPhone 5s from last fall (through work), so won't be upgrading this time anyways, but I look forward to the 4.7" version next year.
To share my experience, I thought both phones were gorgeous - best "smart phones" I have ever seen. The screens look phenomenal, with the glass blending over to meet the rounded edges, noticeable thinner than my 5s, with a great finish. Compared with all other phones I have seen over last year or so via friends (S4 & S5, BBZ10 & Z30, Note 3), I can honestly say they are no where near as attractive as the iPhone 6/6+. The 6 is the size for me going forward, as I do enjoy the one-handed operation, and while there is some slight compromise there (thumb can't hit the far left upper corner without shifting standard grip), it was a compromise I am willing to make to get the greater screen real-estate for my ageing eyes:). I would do what is suggested by others, and put the least used icons up top for that reason.
The 6+ I thought was great (again, far better than my expectations), and if my usage wasn't primarily around 1-handed use, and fact that I almost always carry in pants (jeans) pocket, I would get the 6+. Yes, it is substantially bigger, but if you are a 2-handed user most of the time anyways, and have the pockets or bag to carry it, it is just a dream to handle. It is very light, with an amazing screen, and the feeling with 2 hands is bang on. While I normally prefer a silver/gold model, I think the black/space gray might have an edge for the larger phone visually. Only Apple will know of course, but I expect the 6+ to be a very good seller for those who want perhaps a single device. I think Apple was very smart to offer a 5.5" - even if I won't buy one. It will definitely eat into the sales from Samsung, HTC, Moto, etc, and all by charging more money and giving a nice shift to the ASP.
That being said, I think Apple should continue the 4" size in some manner going forward. I think 3 sizes is easy for Apple to handle, now that iOS & the developer kits are able to support these multiple sizes with scaling. If iOS8 can work on the three sizes now, Apple should use that advantage, for a few reasons. One is that clearly a large % of users today prefer that size, so why not keep that (sizeable) portion very happy. Second, as we saw the with larger phones (and waterproof ones, and early LTE, etc), the other vendors always try to provide something that Apple does not at the given time (most of they have to do that). Thus if Apple were to take away the 4" (smaller) segment over time, there is the possibility that the other handset vendors will try to "differentiate" by going smaller again, and trying to court that crowd. Apple has no reason to give up territory that they now own. Finally, it can give Apple a means to differentiate better on price, which has always been the issue with calling for the "lower cost" iPhone.
While they could just package the new technology into all 3 sizes going forward, its isn't clear how they would manage the lower cost models as they do today. Perhaps they might try an approach of taking the previous year's tech and putting that into the 4" model - so the 4" is always one generation behind the flagships, and then the "c" version with plastic case becomes the lowest cost, as is today. So flagships are always the "larger 2", but the 4" gets that the next year. Not everyone will agree with that of course, but just a thought as to what Apple "might do" to manage the price tiering.
I have just today been into the Apple Store to try out the new iPhones...
The screens look phenomenal, with the glass blending over to meet the rounded edges, noticeable thinner than my 5s, with a great finish.
Nope, not going to happen. The 4" size is outdated. Time to move on.
Its time to produce that 4" next gen phone asap or lose me as a customer. Atleast other phone manufacturers have smaller phones so theres still hope on this matter. And I feel 100% the same on the fact that Cook just dropped the ball. You have to be bold sometimes. Looking at the comments most commenters feel very much the same way about abandoning the 4" size...
Quite.
I have yet to test the 6, so I may still get it. But at the moment, I may well stick this year out with my 5, which would be unprecedented, as I have always updated every two years on contract.
If the iPad didn't exist, I would almost certainly have upgraded immediately, and quite possibly even to the 6 Plus. But ever since I got the wondrous iPad back in 2010, the iPhone has been the second class citizen. I think that's partly why I'm so down on the upcoming ?Watch. It seems crazy to me that Apple are cramming as much as possible into it on a tiny screen, which inevitably invites unflattering comparison to the iPhone and especially the iPad.
I find the advertising on Apple's website telling. They have started using huge, outsize photos for the iPhone, but also for the ?Watch. So, of course, everything looks lovely and clear on a big screen. It's also directly in your field of vision. It'll be a shock to see the real thing much smaller and at the side of your vision.
Yeah it's funny because I've always used Android phones. Motorola Droid (1), HTC Thunderbolt and now a Samsung GS3. Over the years, I've learned my lesson on screen sizes and 1-handed usability.
Basically I've been wrong all along, using my wife's 4S showed me how poorly designed my Android phones have been.
Now, the iPhone is the same way. I was intending to move to the iPhone, because I'm convinced the software and hardware quality is superior to any Android handset on the market, and honestly, always has been.
But I'm in a wait-and-see holding pattern with my GS3. Get a 5S and invest in iOS, when iPhones may be permanently abandoning sense with dropping the 4" screensize? Or stick with Android where I can at least find 4" phones, and likely will continue to always, just at the standard lower refinement that naturally comes with Android handsets by nature.
Honestly, between my preference for Apple's quality and give-a-damn they put into their product... and having a 4", one handed device, I'd choose the 4" even if it is Android. Which I was hoping to drop finally.
So there we have it. But the suggestion that 4" screens are "so not 2014" is ridiculous and the most childish thing I've heard. It's a design decision. Maybe in 2017, a 5.5" phone will be "so 2014" and everyone will be stuffing 15" phones into their pockets like a bunch of fools.
I think many, if not all people who realize how good of a design the 3.5-4" smartphone design was (and always will be), and it will be back. It's just going to take time for people to realize that Steve Jobs had a laboratory of engineers to find this out, before he even launched the product. Much faster than the average stupid consumer will require to figure it out. Which may be 10 years.
It's not like Steve Jobs didn't have the money to produce any size device he wanted to. He just had sensibility and a vision. Most consumers don't have that, they are attracted to shiny objects with bright screens as I was with my GS3.
I was wrong. Now so is Apple. I want an iPhone 6S or I can't ditch Android.
I think many, if not all people who realize how good of a design the 3.5-4" smartphone design was (and always will be), and it will be back. It's just going to take time for people to realize that Steve Jobs had a laboratory of engineers to find this out, before he even launched the product. Much faster than the average stupid consumer will require to figure it out. Which may be 10 years.
It's not like Steve Jobs didn't have the money to produce any size device he wanted to. He just had sensibility and a vision. Most consumers don't have that, they are attracted to shiny objects with bright screens as I was with my GS3.
In a way I am happy Apple did release the 6+ this year (only). Appleinsider is a quieter place now ... common sense will come back. The presence of the phablet will be short lived anyway, Continuity is going to save us
I am eagerly awaiting the iPhone mini next year. 3.5 inch, 4 inch or in between, as long as it is not bigger than 4 inch. It'd be the perfect companion for my 7.9 inch ... iPad mini.
In a way I am happy Apple did release the 6+ this year (only). Appleinsider is a quieter place now ... common sense will come back. The presence of the phablet will be short lived anyway, Continuity is going to save us
I am eagerly awaiting the iPhone mini next year. 3.5 inch, 4 inch or in between, as long as it is not bigger than 4 inch. It'd be the perfect companion for my 7.9 inch ... iPad mini.
So, all of those on AI who felt the need to defend a smaller iPhone as Scamsung released larger ones are bitching now about the 6 Plus... and certainly, they are bitching! How then is AI quieter? It could have been because those who wanted a larger iPhone now had nothing to bitch about but this wasn't to be, it's the turn of the small phone crowd. Where's the common sense in that?
Speaking from an outsiders perspective (I believe I did more than a necessary introduction in my last post), but whose household does have a 4S..
I think the 6+ was a good idea, they needed to get that out. My wife is buying a 6+ because she puts her phone in her purse. Some people do shove Notes and 6+'s in their pockets, but they don't love doing it.
To ruin the normal iPhone that everyone loves was a huge mistake.
Now, that won't stop people from buying them. Sales numbers will prove nothing other than that they've built quite a name for themselves. Some will make excuses for Apple, a minority of men will say it works for them due to having gorilla hands, most women will suffer with it quietly.
Ideally, Apple would have the 6+ for those who want it like my wife. I asked her to hold off on purchasing the Note3 she wanted just to wait for Apple's version. So we are buying a 6+.
But moving the regular iPhone to the 4.7" form factor was a mistake. People who are buying the iPhone6 would've been happy with the 2 choices of 4" and 5.5". At most this is what Steve would've done.
So now while my wife is getting a 6+, I'm back into a holding pattern with a GS3 I just do not love due to the 'just big enough to be awkward' size that the iPhone6 shares now. My guess is that Apple will release an iPhone6S.
i agree. but i think apple can/should offer 3 sizes of full featured phones & a cheapo version of the most popular size. I really hope they dont abandon the smaller form factor phones. i really did not care for the 6 or the 6+ as they are too big for my liking in everyday one-handed use out of my pocket. the wife loves them & is trying to decide between the 6 or the plus (which she was dead set on until she saw how big the 6 was).
5 Plus? Did you mean a 5s or a 5c?
Typo, I meant 6+. Evidence consumers are easily confused with too many phone models
I personally use an iPad for a tablet experience.
It's also very slippery. I think a naked phone should not be slippery
The phone feels like a Samsung clone (pun intended).
Then why the hell did you buy it?
...
The phone feels like a Samsung clone (pun intended).
Not sure how that is possible, since Apple uses aluminium and has a thinner phone, whereas Samsung uses plastic with a thicker phone.
Instead of asking what the OP meant by 'feels' you chose to assume it.
I've just been to an Apple Store to see the new iPhones.
I'm disappointed. The screens are lovely. The 6 actually seems more vivid than the 6 Plus. I love the Zoom function. But the design? I hate the back—the antenna bands look bad. I really hate the camera lens sticking out—it's awful. The phone is so light, it feels cheap.
It's so thin. I placed it on its screen and tried picking it up. It was quite tricky, and I could easily imagine dropping it. When I turned it over in my hand, I almost dropped it. The rounded corners are nice, but there's not much difference in the comfort compared to the 5. It's on the iPad where the rounded corners would make a difference, I imagine, because of the extra weight.
The glass on the front is unusual, the way it curves round. I'm not sure I like it, though. It seems rather flimsy.
I could live with the size of the 6; it went in my pockets okay, though I didn't try my smaller pockets, which it would probably stick out of. One-handed use seemed fine for the brief time I used it.
It doesn't wow me. It doesn't feel or look like a premium Apple product. At the moment, I'm going to wait for the 6s and see if anything changes.