"Picasso had a saying -- 'good artists copy; great artists steal' -- and we have always been shameless about stealing great ideas."
Explain that Jony.
The point of the quote is lost on many and has it's roots is the notion that a great creative minds can take concepts from one arena and then transpose them into another medium, creating a greater masterpiece than the original. The whole point is that the ability to do this is what makes the artist great. No one would ever say that Picasso ripped off or copied someone else's work. In the same way, no one would say that Dali copied Picasso either. Each of these creative geniuses was able to coalesce great pieces and culture of the day into a masterpiece. That is what makes them greats.
What's sort of funny is that you see this "artists steal" process in play in the history of the quote as different "greats" used and tweaked the quote for their own.
So I think the quote is more artistically and poetry driven than business driven so you need to understand the context and big picture. The question to every designed then is this...
Are you merely imitating what you see, or are you stealing the show with your greatness of coalescing design into a masterpiece?
Well Jony can say that Steve was right but I think caring about how your teams work is critiqued is not being vain. And we know that Steve could sometimes be incredibly rude and mean. That certainly isn't a way to motivate people to do better work.
I just don't think that view is the most accurate one. I know it is an extremely pervasive meme with regards to Steve, but the more time passes the less I find that to be true. Here are two reasons I think the "Steve was a tyrant" meme is exaggerated and unfair:
1. What you say is true: caring about the manner in which your team is critiqued is important. But it's really hard to imagine Steve did it "wrong" when you see the sheer quality and beauty of the work that came out. In a free country where people can walk out the front door if they have that level of talent and don't like the way they're treated, you see a pretty loyal core of geniuses leftover at Apple still producing amazing work. If Steve Ballmer was a better criticizer of someone's work than Steve Jobs was, then a lot of those guys would be working for the other Steve.
2. 3 years have passed and it's unusual for someone to say humbly "that man taught me a strong lesson" unless that's a true story. It would be pretty much sociopathic for Tim Cook and Jony Ive to speak with such warmth and respect about a man three years after his death if they didn't genuinely feel that way. And they aren't stupid, weak men in their own right.
Steve didn't have a lot of close friends, but those that seem to know him the best speak the highest of him, generally speaking. If I was on the team and someone completely fucked up a crucial task, I want to see my leader getting angry. You see it with good sports coaches too. They aren't angry all the time, but on rare occasions they do get angry and it has a powerful and positive effect.
You guys really need to stop citing DED as a reference. His lack of credibility only hurts your position when you cite him. His piece on Apple, Xerox, and MS where he tried to rewrite history was laughable at best, intellectually dishonest at worst.
I lived through the stuff DED writes about, not as a participant but as an avid follower of the Steve Jobs story since the mid 1980s. DED's articles are awesome,,, but who the F^^& are you?
You really think Ive drives himself those two hours? Even lowly Apple employees in SF get driven to work by the Apple Bus. (And time on the bus counts toward your workday. So a two-hour commute would mean you only spend 6 hours at work.)
And in Ive's case, I'm sure he has his own personal driver and vehicle.
"Picasso had a saying -- 'good artists copy; great artists steal' -- and we have always been shameless about stealing great ideas."
Explain that Jony.
First of all: The original of the statement comes from T.S. Elliot, not Picasso, even though Picasso quoted Elliot.
The explanation is simple:
Good artists copy - you make a copy of something without adding anything original to it. You need skill to copy it, for instance you need skill as a painter to copy a photograph, you need knowledge as a composer to write out a copy of a song you hear, but you just make a copy. You have to be a good artist, but you don't have to be original. Samsung needs skill as a producer of electronics to make a Galaxy - not everybody can do it, but there isn't much original thought in it.
Great artists steal - a great artist "steals" an idea and makes his own expression of what that idea is. Picasso paints a bull, but he ads his own interpretation of what a bull looks like. He don't just paint a "copy" of the animal, but using a few brushstrokes he paints his impression of what he sees - he adds to the original. Apple sees a cellphone and asks "what should be our interpretation of what a cellphone should be?" and comes up with the iPhone.
I just don't think that view is the most accurate one. I know it is an extremely pervasive meme with regards to Steve, but the more time passes the less I find that to be true. Here are two reasons I think the "Steve was a tyrant" meme is exaggerated and unfair:
1. What you say is true: caring about the manner in which your team is critiqued is important. But it's really hard to imagine Steve did it "wrong" when you see the sheer quality and beauty of the work that came out. In a free country where people can walk out the front door if they have that level of talent and don't like the way they're treated, you see a pretty loyal core of geniuses leftover at Apple still producing amazing work. If Steve Ballmer was a better criticizer of someone's work than Steve Jobs was, then a lot of those guys would be working for the other Steve.
2. 3 years have passed and it's unusual for someone to say humbly "that man taught me a strong lesson" unless that's a true story. It would be pretty much sociopathic for Tim Cook and Jony Ive to speak with such warmth and respect about a man three years after his death if they didn't genuinely feel that way. And they aren't stupid, weak men in their own right.
Steve didn't have a lot of close friends, but those that seem to know him the best speak the highest of him, generally speaking. If I was on the team and someone completely fucked up a crucial task, I want to see my leader getting angry. You see it with good sports coaches too. They aren't angry all the time, but on rare occasions they do get angry and it has a powerful and positive effect.
But this anecdote wasn't about someone screwing up; it was about Ive's team putting their heart and soul into something only for Steve to be overly harsh about it. I don't think Jony requesting Steve to not be quite so harsh (at least around Jony's team) is being vain. It's not about wanting to be liked, it's about wanting your hard work and effort to be recognized.
But this anecdote wasn't about someone screwing up; it was about Ive's team putting their heart and soul into something only for Steve to be overly harsh about it. I don't think Jony requesting Steve to not be quite so harsh (at least around Jony's team) is being vain. It's not about wanting to be liked, it's about wanting your hard work and effort to be recognized.
So why do you think Jony is describing that completely differently, ie "steve was absolutely right"? Stockholm Syndrome?
So why do you think Jony is describing that completely differently, ie "steve was absolutely right"? Stockholm Syndrome?
Because he's not going to get up on stage at an event like this and say anything else. Maybe he does really believe it since he chose to relay that anecdote. So then I'd say he's wrong too.
With respect to the article, I loved the bit that Ive shared about Steve chiding him for trying to be nice to people. It really shows that people like Steve are very rare.
One of the most common things that people do is take things too personally in their profession. If someone is chided about their work, they take it that the person does not like them, which I think is pretty stupid.
I also agree with @TheWhiteFalcon. The more such things I hear about Steve, the more mediocre Issacton's book seems. I now kind of understand why some of the older posters here didn't think much about the book.
The point of the quote is lost on many and has it's roots is the notion that a great creative minds can take concepts from one arena and then transpose them into another medium, creating a greater masterpiece than the original. The whole point is that the ability to do this is what makes the artist great. No one would ever say that Picasso ripped off or copied someone else's work. In the same way, no one would say that Dali copied Picasso either. Each of these creative geniuses was able to coalesce great pieces and culture of the day into a masterpiece. That is what makes them greats.
What's sort of funny is that you see this "artists steal" process in play in the history of the quote as different "greats" used and tweaked the quote for their own.
So I think the quote is more artistically and poetry driven than business driven so you need to understand the context and big picture. The question to every designed then is this...
Are you merely imitating what you see, or are you stealing the show with your greatness of coalescing design into a masterpiece?
The difference between stealing and copying is that if you "steal" you make it your own, you integrate your own creativity with the influences you borrowed.
For example, the impressionists did that. As a whole, you could say, they share some similarity but would you really say one copied to other?
Most of them are easily distinguishible by their use of color, brush stroke, subject matter, how realist the painting is, tone, etc.
Same thing with songs, for example the song tainted love was a minor hit in the 1960s, made its way to britain as a Northern Soul songs popular around Manchester (I belive) and then ended becoming a seminal hit of the 1980s by soft Cell. Is that version a copy?
You could also have close copies even in music, the 1962 Little Eva hit Locomotion and the 1988 Minogue hit of the same name are much closer to copies than anything else. But, then you have the Grand Funk Railways hit version of the 1970s which is a rocked out reinterpretation that covers new ground.
With respect to the article, I loved the bit that Ive shared about Steve chiding him for trying to be nice to people. It really shows that people like Steve are very rare.
One of the most common things that people do is take things too personally in their profession. If someone is chided about their work, they take it that the person does not like them, which I think is pretty stupid.
I also agree with <a data-huddler-embed="href" href="/u/203736/TheWhiteFalcon" style="display:inline-block;">@TheWhiteFalcon</a>
. The more such things I hear about Steve, the more mediocre Issacton's book seems. I now kind of understand why some of the older posters here didn't think much about the book.
Nah, jerks aren't rare. I think it's part of the human condition that people are sensitive to criticism. I know if I worked really hard on something and was told it was crap I certainly wouldn't feel good about it. I don't think people can help it if they take these things personally.
One thing Ive mentioned in this interview is he's had ZERO voluntary turnover on his core team since he's been leading it. That's pretty damn remarkable. Obviously he treats the people that work for him well and gives them incentives to stick around.
You know what, I don't really care how nice a guy Steve Jobs was or wasn't in everyday life—though it's my feeling he's been much misunderstood, but what do I know? I don't think much can be gleaned from Isaacson's book. He also wrote an Einstein biography that was shockingly muddled.
The bottom line is someone's contribution to society. A bigger jerk than Isaac Newton never drew breath. Would we be better off if he had never lived?
Looks like Ive is an iPhone 6 user. I always thought he did the Plus because he had to, not because he wanted to.
So, you post a snapshot of Ive holding an iPhone6, and from that you make the desperate leap of logic that he didn't want to design the iPhone6 Plus.
:rolleyes:
Here's another leap of logic for you: He has more than one phone, and the other one is a 6plus. And I'm going to really stretch credibility here and suggest that he got them both for free.
Ten years from now, when Apple has its own mobile comms network and the SIM card has gone the way of the Dodo, folk will leave the house with the iPhone that suits the occasion:
Off for a run? Take the Apple Watch
Off to a party? Take the Apple Phone
Off on a business trip? Take the Apple Phone Plus
The iPhone Plus is here. Best get used to it, instead of posting tenuous scraps of evidence, trying to prove that it should never have existed.
Comments
Steve Jobs: "
"Picasso had a saying -- 'good artists copy; great artists steal' -- and we have always been shameless about stealing great ideas."
Explain that Jony.
The point of the quote is lost on many and has it's roots is the notion that a great creative minds can take concepts from one arena and then transpose them into another medium, creating a greater masterpiece than the original. The whole point is that the ability to do this is what makes the artist great. No one would ever say that Picasso ripped off or copied someone else's work. In the same way, no one would say that Dali copied Picasso either. Each of these creative geniuses was able to coalesce great pieces and culture of the day into a masterpiece. That is what makes them greats.
Here's a history and research into the origins of the quote and oddly, Picasso isn't mentioned at all: http://quoteinvestigator.com/2013/03/06/artists-steal/
What's sort of funny is that you see this "artists steal" process in play in the history of the quote as different "greats" used and tweaked the quote for their own.
So I think the quote is more artistically and poetry driven than business driven so you need to understand the context and big picture. The question to every designed then is this...
Are you merely imitating what you see, or are you stealing the show with your greatness of coalescing design into a masterpiece?
I just don't think that view is the most accurate one. I know it is an extremely pervasive meme with regards to Steve, but the more time passes the less I find that to be true. Here are two reasons I think the "Steve was a tyrant" meme is exaggerated and unfair:
1. What you say is true: caring about the manner in which your team is critiqued is important. But it's really hard to imagine Steve did it "wrong" when you see the sheer quality and beauty of the work that came out. In a free country where people can walk out the front door if they have that level of talent and don't like the way they're treated, you see a pretty loyal core of geniuses leftover at Apple still producing amazing work. If Steve Ballmer was a better criticizer of someone's work than Steve Jobs was, then a lot of those guys would be working for the other Steve.
2. 3 years have passed and it's unusual for someone to say humbly "that man taught me a strong lesson" unless that's a true story. It would be pretty much sociopathic for Tim Cook and Jony Ive to speak with such warmth and respect about a man three years after his death if they didn't genuinely feel that way. And they aren't stupid, weak men in their own right.
Steve didn't have a lot of close friends, but those that seem to know him the best speak the highest of him, generally speaking. If I was on the team and someone completely fucked up a crucial task, I want to see my leader getting angry. You see it with good sports coaches too. They aren't angry all the time, but on rare occasions they do get angry and it has a powerful and positive effect.
I lived through the stuff DED writes about, not as a participant but as an avid follower of the Steve Jobs story since the mid 1980s. DED's articles are awesome,,, but who the F^^& are you?
You really think Ive has a chauffeur? I doubt it.
Steve Jobs: "
"Picasso had a saying -- 'good artists copy; great artists steal' -- and we have always been shameless about stealing great ideas."
Explain that Jony.
First of all: The original of the statement comes from T.S. Elliot, not Picasso, even though Picasso quoted Elliot.
The explanation is simple:
Good artists copy - you make a copy of something without adding anything original to it. You need skill to copy it, for instance you need skill as a painter to copy a photograph, you need knowledge as a composer to write out a copy of a song you hear, but you just make a copy. You have to be a good artist, but you don't have to be original. Samsung needs skill as a producer of electronics to make a Galaxy - not everybody can do it, but there isn't much original thought in it.
Great artists steal - a great artist "steals" an idea and makes his own expression of what that idea is. Picasso paints a bull, but he ads his own interpretation of what a bull looks like. He don't just paint a "copy" of the animal, but using a few brushstrokes he paints his impression of what he sees - he adds to the original. Apple sees a cellphone and asks "what should be our interpretation of what a cellphone should be?" and comes up with the iPhone.
But this anecdote wasn't about someone screwing up; it was about Ive's team putting their heart and soul into something only for Steve to be overly harsh about it. I don't think Jony requesting Steve to not be quite so harsh (at least around Jony's team) is being vain. It's not about wanting to be liked, it's about wanting your hard work and effort to be recognized.
So why do you think Jony is describing that completely differently, ie "steve was absolutely right"? Stockholm Syndrome?
Oh FFS, why is Beelzebub still allowed to post here? His/ her/ its posts are getting more and more blatant in their trolling.
[IMG]http://i62.tinypic.com/11qn6vr.jpg[/IMG]
With respect to the article, I loved the bit that Ive shared about Steve chiding him for trying to be nice to people. It really shows that people like Steve are very rare.
One of the most common things that people do is take things too personally in their profession. If someone is chided about their work, they take it that the person does not like them, which I think is pretty stupid.
I also agree with @TheWhiteFalcon. The more such things I hear about Steve, the more mediocre Issacton's book seems. I now kind of understand why some of the older posters here didn't think much about the book.
The point of the quote is lost on many and has it's roots is the notion that a great creative minds can take concepts from one arena and then transpose them into another medium, creating a greater masterpiece than the original. The whole point is that the ability to do this is what makes the artist great. No one would ever say that Picasso ripped off or copied someone else's work. In the same way, no one would say that Dali copied Picasso either. Each of these creative geniuses was able to coalesce great pieces and culture of the day into a masterpiece. That is what makes them greats.
Here's a history and research into the origins of the quote and oddly, Picasso isn't mentioned at all: http://quoteinvestigator.com/2013/03/06/artists-steal/
What's sort of funny is that you see this "artists steal" process in play in the history of the quote as different "greats" used and tweaked the quote for their own.
So I think the quote is more artistically and poetry driven than business driven so you need to understand the context and big picture. The question to every designed then is this...
Are you merely imitating what you see, or are you stealing the show with your greatness of coalescing design into a masterpiece?
The difference between stealing and copying is that if you "steal" you make it your own, you integrate your own creativity with the influences you borrowed.
For example, the impressionists did that. As a whole, you could say, they share some similarity but would you really say one copied to other?
Most of them are easily distinguishible by their use of color, brush stroke, subject matter, how realist the painting is, tone, etc.
Same thing with songs, for example the song tainted love was a minor hit in the 1960s, made its way to britain as a Northern Soul songs popular around Manchester (I belive) and then ended becoming a seminal hit of the 1980s by soft Cell. Is that version a copy?
You could also have close copies even in music, the 1962 Little Eva hit Locomotion and the 1988 Minogue hit of the same name are much closer to copies than anything else. But, then you have the Grand Funk Railways hit version of the 1970s which is a rocked out reinterpretation that covers new ground.
One thing Ive mentioned in this interview is he's had ZERO voluntary turnover on his core team since he's been leading it. That's pretty damn remarkable. Obviously he treats the people that work for him well and gives them incentives to stick around.
The bottom line is someone's contribution to society. A bigger jerk than Isaac Newton never drew breath. Would we be better off if he had never lived?
So, you post a snapshot of Ive holding an iPhone6, and from that you make the desperate leap of logic that he didn't want to design the iPhone6 Plus.
:rolleyes:
Here's another leap of logic for you: He has more than one phone, and the other one is a 6plus. And I'm going to really stretch credibility here and suggest that he got them both for free.
Ten years from now, when Apple has its own mobile comms network and the SIM card has gone the way of the Dodo, folk will leave the house with the iPhone that suits the occasion:
Off for a run? Take the Apple Watch
Off to a party? Take the Apple Phone
Off on a business trip? Take the Apple Phone Plus
The iPhone Plus is here. Best get used to it, instead of posting tenuous scraps of evidence, trying to prove that it should never have existed.
I'll take that even further and say he has them with their maximum capacity, he has them in every colour, and he got them all for free.
I dunno though.
If he'd come up with a pub toilet that didn't sway while you were trying to use it …
From what I've read about him, he probably has them in different memory capacities so he can experience the subtle differences in balance and weight.
No, it's more like: he wanted to use it single-handedly. 8-)
Those who don't wish to toil on it.