Judge dismisses Apple Store employee 'bag check' lawsuits following Supreme Court ruling

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Comments

  • Reply 41 of 71
    zonezone Posts: 59member

    Ok so everyone who is against this doesn't have all the information. Those who think Apple retail employees should not be paid are way off and your comparison are not valid and again not the same thing. You are not comparing Apple to Apple's.

     

    This is not the military, not an airport or other facility where major security is a concern. There is no secrete corporate information to be stolen. This is a retail store and its that simple. 

     

    As a former Apple employee who worked both in retail and corporate they are two different worlds...

     

    Lets look at the real differences from someone who has the facts. Someone who been around main head quarters and done both security processes. 

     

    Lets look at Corporate

     

    All corporate Apple employees have a badge that lets them access any secure buildings (not all building are secure but most are however proper identification is need reguardless) and the badge is needed to swipe in and open locked doors. This is an fast process and the wait is a few seconds. Most corporate employees are paid a salary and they are aware upon taking the job that Apple security is MAJOR and expected part of their job. They are also compensated for this process since its uses the latest technology. Its fast, convenient, unobtrusive and cool at the same time (women love men who have jobs in silicon valley and great way to pick up the ladies). How many of you have an Apple badge??

     

    FYI your badge will not open just any door and can be tracked and you might have access to certain places but if you are in areas where you not supposed to be well that an issue as well and will be fired. 

     

    Lets look at retail

     

    Employees have no badge or indication and must clock in using and custom software made by Apple (this process could of change since I don't work there anymore but my experience is fairly current)

     

    At the store where I worked this happen in a make shift coat room that was very small. At a store where there were around 200 people working. Imaging standing in a line just to clock in and trying to pass in and out of a standard sized door? Doesn't really work well and is very inefficient. Forgot to mention that the system could lag and could take a minute 30 second to a minute to process the entry. You of course had to wait around to make sure it took the entry. This of course could make you late if you didn't plan ahead especially when it was all hands on deck for special events, and big holiday periods. You couldn't be late and Apple was VERY strict on this and fired many people for just that. Yes this is not unusual in the business world but most companies are very lax on this and you would have to been a major offender but at Apple a few times and that's it your gone. 

     

    Now all this and the follow I am about to describe is happening at one of the greatest companies in world. Apple's products and logistics are second to none but when it come to retail its a whole different story. The have unimaginable resources to fix and streamline anything so when things are not handle properly its a failure at the leadership level. It that simple and employee should not have to pay for that failure. 

     

    The official security checkout procedure is this. 

     

    - You must check out with a Manager before leaving (failure to do so is immediate termination for any reason)

     

    - Your bag is checked, your food containers checked and all your personal technology is checked against a technology card that you carried with the serial numbers of devises you owned. Have you ever tried to read the serial numbers on an iPhone and iPod. Take a look had incredibly small it is. Your also subject to managers saying your not hiding anything are you? 

     

    - This happens most of time on the retail floor were employees have already clocked out. How long does this process take and what is the main focus of the manager on the floor? Well if your following this it could take anywhere from a few seconds if you were the only one or up to 5 or so minutes. Also keep in mind this has to happen every time you leave the store so not just at the end of a shift but when you maybe to go to lunch or a break. I would say the average for the whole process was of timed that you are waiting around is 5-10 minutes a day depending on many factors but is could also be longer. So if we are conservative you looking around 30 hours a year of unpaid time per full time retail employee. Also keep in mind that when you work your ass of and only have an hour break to get lunch it would be nice to be able to leave and not have to wait around. Please don't say you could stay and eat in break room to avoid this but also keep in mind most Apple store break room can't fit everyone and its been a major issue. They are trying to fix this issue but it has taken 10 years to do so.

     

    SO much more to say but tired of typing here. Anyway ask yourself would you be willing as an hourly employees of any company to give your employers almost a week of your time for free because of their lack of efficiency? Apple has amazing resources and employees should be paid for their time and its that simple.

     

    Also please don't say stupid things like if you don't like it go and get another job. This is really uneducated thing to say and there are many reason why this statement is so stupid. One being when big companies do anything that is unfair and not moral right if affect us all at some level. 

     

    These retail employees work hard, are underpaid and put up with many things that most of you out there that have a "real" job do not have to do. They do not steal and would't even consider that. They care about apple and believe in the company. Its only the right thing to do.

  • Reply 42 of 71
    zonezone Posts: 59member

    Yes the Corporatocracy is in control and I agree with you. This is a gift to them. The real issue is a failure at the leadership level. Most of these employes make less than 10 dollars an hour and Corporations like Apple and Walmart can afford to do what morally right.

  • Reply 43 of 71
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by RadarTheKat View Post



    What's next, people will soon be demanding a discount off their airline ticket based upon the amount of their time spent in the security line when they arrive at the airport?

    Well, yes.  It can be ridiculous in those TSA lines.

  • Reply 44 of 71
    fracfrac Posts: 480member
    I once worked at a nuclear power facility and the checks there were interminable. The sensible ones used forethought, offering little or no excuse for detailed search, never loaded their pockets with random stuff that wasn't necessary anyway, got there early to avoid last minute queues, never took more than they needed when leaving the site and greeted the security staff as mates.
    Worked a charm.
  • Reply 45 of 71
    Lawsuits and courts aren't going to fix this problem. Legislation is needed.

    We have laws requiring coffee breaks and meals. That's an analogy to these checks that, because it isn't matched in law, is pushing courts to act as they do. Absent laws to the contrary, this security check time becomes like the time employees spend walking to their car in the parking lot or commuting to work. They're not paid for that either.

    We need coffee-break laws limiting the time employees are forced to wait in line coming on or leaving work. A good case can be made that, unlike commute time, this is time that is under the control of the employer. If that employer doesn't want to pay for 15 minutes, that employer can speed up the security check. It has no similar control over an employer's commute time.
  • Reply 46 of 71
    davidwdavidw Posts: 1,644member
    jlanganki wrote: »
    The ruling states that "the [screening] process was not 'integral and indispensable' to their jobs."

    Since "indispensable" means "required", that means the security checks are now optional.

    Otherwise, Justice Thomas lied in his own justification of his decision (he literally called something "optional" which is not "optional", disproving his own point).

    What the FLSA is saying is that an employer must pay you if you are performing duties that are considered integral and indispensable to your job. Say that a delivery truck arrives late and it's your job to help unload it and you stayed 15 minutes after your shift to get it done. Even if no management personal asked you to stay over, the company must still pay you overtime because you were performing duties that were integral and indispensable to your job.

    But say if a fellow employee locker jams 5 minutes before quitting time, with his cars keys inside, so you offer to help by taking out your trusty Leatherman tool to remove the lock. After 20 minutes, you get the locker opened. In this case management in not required to pay you any overtime because unjamming a locker in not integral and indispensable to your job as a delivery truck unloader. Even though you were still on the clock.

    Now if your job is to check employees bags when they enter or leave the building, the the screening process is integral and indispensable to your job.

    When they say "indispensable", it has nothing to do with "optional".
  • Reply 47 of 71
    davidw wrote: »
    What the FLSA is saying is that an employer must pay you if you are performing duties that are considered integral and indispensable to your job. Say that a delivery truck arrives late and it's your job to help unload it and you stayed 15 minutes after your shift to get it done. Even if no management personal asked you to stay over, the company must still pay you overtime because you were performing duties that were integral and indispensable to your job.

    But say if a fellow employee locker jams 5 minutes before quitting time, with his cars keys inside, so you offer to help by taking out your trusty Leatherman tool to remove the lock. After 20 minutes, you get the locker opened. In this case management in not required to pay you any overtime because unjamming a locker in not integral and indispensable to your job as a delivery truck unloader. Even though you were still on the clock.

    Now if your job is to check employees bags when they enter or leave the building, the the screening process is integral and indispensable to your job.

    When they say "indispensable", it has nothing to do with "optional".

    If the employer makes you stay to conduct a bag check at their leisure/discretion then it sort of becomes an integral part of the job though. It's not the same as you OFFERING to stsy and help someone unstick their locker -- if the employer is saying you MUST DO THIS....

    I just went through this with my employer. I never agreed with their old policy and made sure to be as quick as possible for the sake of my employees (because I'm not a dick) but now that it must be done before clock-out.... They've made it somewhat optional (prior to the policy change if you bought stuff while there even if on your own time you'd have to have your bags checked out; now you're just a customer and no bag check is required -- REQUIRED being the key operative)
  • Reply 48 of 71
    dysamoriadysamoria Posts: 3,430member
    If it's a mandatory condition of employment, and it takes time, it sure as hell is integral to the job and should be compensated! WTF??
  • Reply 49 of 71
    dysamoriadysamoria Posts: 3,430member
    I love when people call others on being "entitled" because they're asking for rational compensation for time given to an employer. It sounds so... entitled.
  • Reply 50 of 71
    davidwdavidw Posts: 1,644member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by dysamoria View Post



    If it's a mandatory condition of employment, and it takes time, it sure as hell is integral to the job and should be compensated! WTF??

     

    The question is .......... Why are you bringing a bag to work? Does the bag (that needs a lot of time to be inspected) contain items required for your job? Do the employer require you to bring items to work in a bag that needs more than a few seconds to inspected, every time you enter and leave the building? Or are you bringing in personal items that is not related nor required for your job?

     

    I can see bringing a small lunch bag/box/ice chest. Maybe a small purse for the women. Even a personal laptop, tablet or MP3 player. All those takes less than 5 seconds to inspect. You practically don't even have to stop walking for these. Just open the item and show the guard while walking by.  Or maybe the occassional office party for a birthday or retirement and you're bringing a gift or food for a potluck.  Or maybe something you need after work and you don't want to leave in your car.  If you need to give something to a fellow employee, give to him in the parking lot. Don't need to bring it in the building. But these are done every once in a while, not every day.  Should the employer pay for the time it takes to inspect bags that employees brings to work every day, that contains nothing that the employer requires them to have at work?  And I bet many of these bags or large purses/handbags that Apple store employees brings to work contains just that. 

  • Reply 51 of 71
    Originally Posted by DavidW View Post

    The question is .......... Why are you bringing a bag to work?


     

    I think in the original threads about this lawsuit we sufficiently covered why women are incapable of remaining alive without a purse on hand.

     

    I didn’t say ‘explained’ or ‘proved’, just ‘covered’. :p

  • Reply 52 of 71
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by DavidW View Post

     

     

    The question is .......... Why are you bringing a bag to work? Does the bag (that needs a lot of time to be inspected) contain items required for your job? Do the employer require you to bring items to work in a bag that needs more than a few seconds to inspected, every time you enter and leave the building? Or are you bringing in personal items that is not related nor required for your job?

     

    I can see bringing a small lunch bag/box/ice chest. Maybe a small purse for the women. Even a personal laptop, tablet or MP3 player. All those takes less than 5 seconds to inspect. You practically don't even have to stop walking for these. Just open the item and show the guard while walking by.  Or maybe the occassional office party for a birthday or retirement and you're bringing a gift or food for a potluck.  Or maybe something you need after work and you don't want to leave in your car.  If you need to give something to a fellow employee, give to him in the parking lot. Don't need to bring it in the building. But these are done every once in a while, not every day.  Should the employer pay for the time it takes to inspect bags that employees brings to work every day, that contains nothing that the employer requires them to have at work?  And I bet many of these bags or large purses/handbags that Apple store employees brings to work contains just that. 




    Who cares why they brought a bag to work. As you said, there's many reasons like: taking night classes, not wanting to leave things in your car to be stolen, the list could go forever. As I said before, just do the dumb check right before you clock out, why is that hard?

     

    Some employers frown on overtime being worked in general, but if that was the case and since they're claiming this is overtime and not regular pay, that would mean they are already working either 8hrs a day and/or 40hrs a week. The only way a 15sec bag check could be the deciding factor that would push you over that 8hr a day threshold, is if your in the habit of standing in front of the time clock doing nothing other than waiting for that exact 8hr moment to clock out, when you could be having your bag checked at the same time. If you're already into overtime based on actual work time, than 15sec more of it while having a bag checked is no big deal.

     

    I agree an employee should be paid for anything required by the employer as part of their workday. The employee also has a responsibility to NOT clock out until after all their work responsibilities have concluded. If having a bag check done before clocking out isn't possible (like they do surprise check as your walking out the door), Apple owes them money for it, even though it would literally amount to a couple of dollars at most. I've had situation where my last 2 employers (past and current) have issued supplemental checks for some small miscalculation in overtime (example: worked overtime same pay period as a bonus check was issued and overtime pay had been calculated as normal, they went back and paid overtime based on how much per hour you'd make if the bonus was actually part of your base hourly salary. They went back 5 years for any times this had happened and paid it based on their own discovery, not initiated via employee complaint). So, unexpected random checks for small amounts, no big deal. If employees clocked out first and neither party kept records of the bag check dates, oops. just agree to start checking before they clock out from now on. 

  • Reply 53 of 71
    chris_cachris_ca Posts: 2,543member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by eep357 View Post

    Who cares why they brought a bag to work. As you said, there's many reasons like: taking night classes


    If you are taking night classes, what does this have to do with bringing your bag to work?

    Quote:

    The only way a 15sec bag check could be the deciding factor that would push you over that 8hr a day threshold, is if your in the habit of standing in front of the time clock doing nothing other than waiting for that exact 8hr moment to clock out, when you could be having your bag checked at the same time. If you're already into overtime based on actual work time, than 15sec more of it while having a bag checked is no big deal.

     



    It’s not the actual time it takes to do the bag check that is causing the ruckus.

    It’s the 50-90 minutes wait to get the bag check done.

    If it was only 15 seconds, I doubt anyone would be complaining. (except for those who complain about everything anyway_

  • Reply 54 of 71
    dasanman69dasanman69 Posts: 13,002member
    chris_ca wrote: »
    If you are taking night classes, what does this have to do with bringing your bag to work?

    Change of clothes, books, and all the things a student would need. Maybe they're going to class directly after work.
  • Reply 55 of 71
    davidwdavidw Posts: 1,644member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by eep357 View Post

     



    Who cares why they brought a bag to work. As you said, there's many reasons like: taking night classes, not wanting to leave things in your car to be stolen, the list could go forever. As I said before, just do the dumb check right before you clock out, why is that hard?

     

    Some employers frown on overtime being worked in general, but if that was the case and since they're claiming this is overtime and not regular pay, that would mean they are already working either 8hrs a day and/or 40hrs a week. The only way a 15sec bag check could be the deciding factor that would push you over that 8hr a day threshold, is if your in the habit of standing in front of the time clock doing nothing other than waiting for that exact 8hr moment to clock out, when you could be having your bag checked at the same time. If you're already into overtime based on actual work time, than 15sec more of it while having a bag checked is no big deal.

     

    I agree an employee should be paid for anything required by the employer as part of their workday. The employee also has a responsibility to NOT clock out until after all their work responsibilities have concluded. If having a bag check done before clocking out isn't possible (like they do surprise check as your walking out the door), Apple owes them money for it, even though it would literally amount to a couple of dollars at most. I've had situation where my last 2 employers (past and current) have issued supplemental checks for some small miscalculation in overtime (example: worked overtime same pay period as a bonus check was issued and overtime pay had been calculated as normal, they went back and paid overtime based on how much per hour you'd make if the bonus was actually part of your base hourly salary. They went back 5 years for any times this had happened and paid it based on their own discovery, not initiated via employee complaint). So, unexpected random checks for small amounts, no big deal. If employees clocked out first and neither party kept records of the bag check dates, oops. just agree to start checking before they clock out from now on. 


     

    Maybe not a big deal to do the bag check before the employees clock out when there's only a dozen or so employees clocking out. But what about employers like GM, UPS, US Postal Service, ect., where there's maybe 2 or 3 hundred employees clocking out at the same time at one of their plants? Should the likes of GM be expected to let every employees line up at the clock 10 or 15 minutes before the end of the shift, so that bag check can be perform on employees that bring a large bag to work. Or maybe only employees with a large bag will be allow to line up at the clock earlier. And if that's the case, I'm willing to bet that every employee will be bringing a large bag to work, just so that their employer is forced to let them line up in front of the clock 30 minutes early, becasue that's how long it will take to inspect hundreds of employees bags on the clock. And that's just the end of shift, what aout the beginning of the shift. Do employees that bring a large bag to work, that needs to be inspected, get to start work 10 minutes later that those that don't bring a bag that needs to be inspected? And as soon as this happens, the employer will be forced to ban all employees from bringing in any large bag, that is not required for their job. No exception. If you really need to bring in a bag with non job related items, you need to have it checked before and after you clock in and out. I'll bet you'll be surprise how few employees will be bringing a large bag, with non essential items for their job, to work. 

     

    I won't even go into work places that have dozens of time clocks through out their facilities (and offices) to accommodate the hundres of employees that works there. Do you think such employers should have a security person checking employees bags at every time clock? 

     

    And what about lunch? Are employees entiltled to quit early for lunch because they want to take out a large bag, that needs to be inspected before they clock out for lunch? And then getting to start work 10 minutes after they clock back in from lunch.  

  • Reply 56 of 71
    Amazing the depth of the "legal minds" posting here. NOT.

    Read the WHOLE text of the Supreme Court's decision, and not just the annotated phrase contained in the article. But then I suspect that the lega; scholars posting anti-Apple comments wouldn't comprehend them.
  • Reply 57 of 71
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by DavidW View Post

     

     

    Waste a great deal of time? According to one of the plantiff in the article, he wanted Apple to compensate him for 50 to 90 minutes of OT, over the course of A YEAR. If he worked 200 days a year, that's less than 30 seconds a day. I hardly think waiting 30 seconds a day to leave your work place, is a great deal of time.

     

    What's next, OT for the 2 to 3 minutes it takes you to walk to your car,(every work day), that's parked in a company's  lot? Surely, the company can put time clocks out in their parking lot, so employees gets paid for the time it takes them to walk to their cars. Why should the employees that got to work early and got parking spots close to the building entrance, spend less of their own time getting to their cars after work? 

     

    Here's another scenario. Suppose you work on the 20th floor of a 30 floor office building. Should you be compensated for the time you have to wait for and on an elevator everyday, after you're already in the building or already clocked out from work. Is it fair that a person working on the first floor, spends less time waiting for and in an elevator when going to and leaving from work. (Plus he/she can easily walk up/down one flight of stairs.)  

     

    And technically, employers can't have the clock outside the security check area because if an employee is caught with a stolen item in his/her bag, he/she isn't off the clock and still at work and therefore not stealing. If it's a union work place, the union will fight it and win. It's the same with shoplifting. Store security will wait until a shoplifter is outside of the store before they nab him/her. Even though they could have nabbed the shoplifter once they saw him/her put the item in his/her pocket. The reason being, the shoplifter can always say they were going to pay for it on the way out. Once outside the store, a shoplifter has no excuse. 




    Absolutely untrue.  Shoplifting law allows store security to stop you as soon as you make an effort to conceal an item, not when you leave the store. 

  • Reply 58 of 71
    darkvader wrote: »

    Absolutely untrue.  Shoplifting law allows store security to stop you as soon as you make an effort to conceal an item, not when you leave the store. 

    THAT is Absolutely untrue in CA. You're allowed to shop into a personal bag, pocket, whatever you like. It's not shoplifting until you've passed the last point of sale without effort to pay.
  • Reply 59 of 71
    chris_cachris_ca Posts: 2,543member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by DarkVader View Post

    Absolutely untrue.  Shoplifting law allows store security to stop you as soon as you make an effort to conceal an item, not when you leave the store. 


    you mean conceal it with intent to not pay for it.

    The store would have to prove intent to actually steal it. Walking past the checkout could likely pass the test but almost alway security will wait till you are out the door.

    Most of the time no one will stop you until you leave the store simply because they won’t need to prove intent. You have already removed it from the store without payment.

  • Reply 60 of 71
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by jungmark View Post





    1. Well they can't strip search you either so if you tape iPods to your legs, you can get away with that too.



    2. It is balanced: 4 liberals, 4 conservatives, 1 swing vote.

     

    I'm saying that I don't think the range of opinions that people can be have can be classified as liberal or conservative.  There are dozens of considerations that should go into every decision, and judges shouldn't be liberal or conservative once they become elected to the court anyway, they're supposed to rise above and execute on a higher plane of thinking than politics.
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