Moto's achilles heel seems to be fabbing their chips; they can dream up awesome designs but when it comes time to do the mundane stuff, like making the damn things, Moto falls flat on their face.
But what if Moto decided to focus on CPU design, and contracted out the production of all their CPUs to another company like AMD or IBM? Hmmmmmm.... Could such a setup work on the scale that Moto would need? I know this works for other companies (I forget which ones), but they are producing CPUs on a much smaller scale than the PPC chip.</strong><hr></blockquote>
I once attended a class where the guy was an ex-Motorola employee with many years of working in their fabs. We were talking about chips and he basically told me that their fab work isn't very good.
I work with engineers who have been in the semiconducter industry for a long time. According to these guys, IBM's wafer fab costs are 2X to 4X higher than normal. This means a chip from Motorola that costs $100.00 could cost $200.00 to $400.00 dollars from IBM.
The entire thread was about the fact that he believes MOTO WILL NOT PRODUCE THE G5 FOR APPLE. That in no way means the actual desktop G5 is dead, come on people. Ok, then what would be the otehr scenario?
Oh I know!! IBM! Come to think of it. I posted in another G5 thread a few weeks ago that someone else had said "Look to IBM for the G5" So maybe this thread of Moto not doing the G5 is the truth and instead IBM is.
WhooHooo! Either, I got my Dualie Gig-er to keep me happy till the G5 comes out.
The G5 will show up in an Apple desktop machine because Apple is a great Moto customer. Motorola gets advertised and publisized because of their relationship to Apple. I dont think a G5 desktop computer is going away.
[quote]Oh I know!! IBM! Come to think of it. I posted in another G5 thread a few weeks ago that someone else had said "Look to IBM for the G5" So maybe this thread of Moto not doing the G5 is the truth and instead IBM is.<hr></blockquote>
i said that. i can't explain how i know so take it as you will.
<strong> And, no offense to Moki, but I really wouldn't say that Ambrosia constitutes a "major" developer.</strong><hr></blockquote>
OK. I won't bother sharing what I know anymore -- no worries. It has gotten rather pointless, anyway, no one believes you when you say something they don't like, even if it is the truth, and then the ad hominen attacks begin.
OK. I won't bother sharing what I know anymore -- no worries. It has gotten rather pointless, anyway, no one believes you when you say something they don't like, even if it is the truth, and then the ad hominen attacks begin.
'tis not worth it indeed.</strong><hr></blockquote>
When I said "no offense intended", that is truly what I meant. I really like all of your products (you'll have my shareware fee the moment the EV Nova is released). It just seems that something like the G5 would only go to the likes of, say, Adobe, Microsoft, Epson, etc. It was in no way meant to be an ad hominem attack, and frankly, I put greater weight on what you say than what a lot of other people say. So, if you do in fact have a G5, I apologize for my comment. And please. continue to post here; your comments are both rational and insightful and add a tone of legitimacy to these threads.
OK. I won't bother sharing what I know anymore -- no worries. It has gotten rather pointless, anyway, no one believes you when you say something they don't like, even if it is the truth, and then the ad hominen attacks begin.
'tis not worth it indeed.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Don't be pissed off at all of us moki. There are a lot of people here (myself included) who value your posts. Some even respect you (even an angry Avara player like me ). I'm sure Agent302 does too.
Back to the topic, I'm afraid that their might be some truth in Junkyard Dawg's assertion that executive's at Motorola are incompetent losers who do stupid things to spite Apple. I mean, the biggest publicity that the Motorola SPS gets (at least in the mainstream media) is Apple computers. However, instead of exploiting that, they seem to shun Apple in press releases and media interviews. Apple has 12 billion dollars to play with, so I reckon they should do something drastic like buy out Moto's PPC assets or work with IBM on making the Power4 a more mainstream CPU.
OK. I won't bother sharing what I know anymore -- no worries. It has gotten rather pointless, anyway, no one believes you when you say something they don't like, even if it is the truth, and then the ad hominen attacks begin.
'tis not worth it indeed.</strong><hr></blockquote>
"now, now,.."
/me hands moki a lollypop
"you can just ignore the posts you dislike - like the people that you got pissed off at do."
I still think even Moto isn't as stupid to cut its own flesh for the sake of revenge against Apple, for a cause that is like 5 years old now.
Apple is a big customer, and even if that doesn't suffice, they're no the only customers who need fast chips.
I think there's way too much hacking going on over Motorola. Everyone wishes them dead in hell.
After all, the chips are great, the design is great. Their only fault is that they have problems gettin thigns up to speed, and everyone seems to think that they're the only ones facing that problem. Which of course isn't true at all, just look at Intel. Their Itanium is progressing backwards and they have to cook up alternatives "Yamhill" in case Itanium doesn't leap forward anymore.
Face it, chip design isn't childs play, thus there's unlikely going to be childish "revenge" acting either.
Give Motorola some of the peace they deserve, and just wait and see what's coming. You're certainly not going to help it by calling them dead, incompetent or whatever. the more that words gets spread, the more influence it's going to have on their stock/shares, and that eventually really wil get them to their knees.
i don't know if anyone ever read the "bottom line" of the motorola processor strategy:
"8xxx integrated processor targeting the communication and consumer markets"
well. that said, the embedded "G5" is in the final stage of development (dubbed 8450)
and there IS NOT EVEN A DESKTOP G5 PROECESSOR PLANNED. IT NEVER WAS.
it's targetted at the high end embedded and consumer markets, but not ment as a dekstop computing cpu. and mot planned this years ago already.
man, i'm pissed ;-)
at least this figure doesn't show us ANY information about any planned desktop processor after the g4 which is mentioned as "desktop computing" processor. so there either be one which is completely secret or none.
I think by killing Macs INSIDE the Motorola company they did enough to piss off Apple. I don't know, but Mr. Jobs sort of made the impression of REAL confidence in recent times. There is something going on, I'm sure, unless it was not killed recently. (Again, gut feeling)
In the world of printed media, there are newspapers of all varieties all around the world. Some newspapers are very good, others are not. The term "sensationalism" is routinely applied to describing the content of the lesser newspapers, and somewhat rarely to the better ones. As a rough and ready rule, sensationalism is the stock in trade of the low-rent newspapers, and good newspapers are good in no small part because of a relative lack of sensationalism.
Now let's think about this thread. Suppose that this thread were an article in a newspaper. A newspaper along the lines of, say, a London tabloid might have given this article/thread a title more or less along the lines of the one it has. This is my roundabout way of saying that this thread has a sensationalistic title.
Meanwhile, if this thread were an article in a good newspaper, I would suggest that a more appropriate title might be something like,
"Anonymous troll posts anti-Mac BS in bulletin board".
See? Extract the sensationalism and you're left with very little indeed.
Pretty unlikely. After all, Motorola is a business, and as such, their primary concern is more likely to be making money rather than sacrificing profits just in order to exact some sort of personal revenge for long-bygone deeds.
<strong>You'd hope. </strong><hr></blockquote>
That's one reason why corps have boards of directors: to prevent childish personal motives from ruining the enterprise.
There is not now, nor has there ever been a mot conspiracy/sentiment/(or any type of general move) to kill PPC for the desktop. If you go back and take a look, Mot wasn't making any more money on their clone sales than they are by just selling PPC's. The expense coupled to even the modicum of competition in that restricted space pretty much ensured that clones weren't a money maker for Mot. In fact, their PPC business is much better off with the clones dead and gone. Now they just have to worry about chips, and can leave system integration/development to the experts.
This is just a little fantasy that Apple fan boys have cooked up. IBM hasn't done any better than Mot a ramping up clock speeds. You're just in a tiff cause the x86 side seems much faster. It isn't, unless you play games. Apples could stand to be cheaper, but their performance is quite good. The whole AIM group just misread the marketing possibilities and it will take a generation of product to correct that. In reality the PPC offers comparable performance, faster in areas and slower in others. With significant advantages for DSP type stuff and photo/video work and significant disadvantages for 3-d. That's it. The chip competes. The platform competes. It's a little too expensive, sure. But there isn't now, nor has there ever been any animostity or associated conspiracy over the killing of clones.
specifically, check out the roadmap towards the end of the pdf... if the g5 is referred to as Book E (which mot and ibm have used as the basis of future ppc processors), looks like we'll be waiting till next year at least...
can't wait till my new dual comes in Monday... been procrastinating an upgrade since I bought my beige g3 the day they were released years ago... so very long overdue..
Comments
<strong>
Moto's achilles heel seems to be fabbing their chips; they can dream up awesome designs but when it comes time to do the mundane stuff, like making the damn things, Moto falls flat on their face.
But what if Moto decided to focus on CPU design, and contracted out the production of all their CPUs to another company like AMD or IBM? Hmmmmmm....
I once attended a class where the guy was an ex-Motorola employee with many years of working in their fabs. We were talking about chips and he basically told me that their fab work isn't very good.
I work with engineers who have been in the semiconducter industry for a long time. According to these guys, IBM's wafer fab costs are 2X to 4X higher than normal. This means a chip from Motorola that costs $100.00 could cost $200.00 to $400.00 dollars from IBM.
- Mark
The entire thread was about the fact that he believes MOTO WILL NOT PRODUCE THE G5 FOR APPLE. That in no way means the actual desktop G5 is dead, come on people. Ok, then what would be the otehr scenario?
Oh I know!! IBM! Come to think of it. I posted in another G5 thread a few weeks ago that someone else had said "Look to IBM for the G5" So maybe this thread of Moto not doing the G5 is the truth and instead IBM is.
WhooHooo! Either, I got my Dualie Gig-er to keep me happy till the G5 comes out.
<strong>People think Elvis is dead too.
WHAT!?!?!?!?!?!?!??!!??!?!!!!!!!!!
[ 02-02-2002: Message edited by: Macintosh ]</p>
[quote]Oh I know!! IBM! Come to think of it. I posted in another G5 thread a few weeks ago that someone else had said "Look to IBM for the G5" So maybe this thread of Moto not doing the G5 is the truth and instead IBM is.<hr></blockquote>
i said that. i can't explain how i know so take it as you will.
[ 02-02-2002: Message edited by: admactanium ]</p>
<strong> And, no offense to Moki, but I really wouldn't say that Ambrosia constitutes a "major" developer.</strong><hr></blockquote>
OK. I won't bother sharing what I know anymore -- no worries. It has gotten rather pointless, anyway, no one believes you when you say something they don't like, even if it is the truth, and then the ad hominen attacks begin.
'tis not worth it indeed.
<strong>
OK. I won't bother sharing what I know anymore -- no worries. It has gotten rather pointless, anyway, no one believes you when you say something they don't like, even if it is the truth, and then the ad hominen attacks begin.
'tis not worth it indeed.</strong><hr></blockquote>
When I said "no offense intended", that is truly what I meant. I really like all of your products (you'll have my shareware fee the moment the EV Nova is released). It just seems that something like the G5 would only go to the likes of, say, Adobe, Microsoft, Epson, etc. It was in no way meant to be an ad hominem attack, and frankly, I put greater weight on what you say than what a lot of other people say. So, if you do in fact have a G5, I apologize for my comment. And please. continue to post here; your comments are both rational and insightful and add a tone of legitimacy to these threads.
<strong>
OK. I won't bother sharing what I know anymore -- no worries. It has gotten rather pointless, anyway, no one believes you when you say something they don't like, even if it is the truth, and then the ad hominen attacks begin.
'tis not worth it indeed.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Don't be pissed off at all of us moki. There are a lot of people here (myself included) who value your posts. Some even respect you (even an angry Avara player like me
Back to the topic, I'm afraid that their might be some truth in Junkyard Dawg's assertion that executive's at Motorola are incompetent losers who do stupid things to spite Apple. I mean, the biggest publicity that the Motorola SPS gets (at least in the mainstream media) is Apple computers. However, instead of exploiting that, they seem to shun Apple in press releases and media interviews. Apple has 12 billion dollars to play with, so I reckon they should do something drastic like buy out Moto's PPC assets or work with IBM on making the Power4 a more mainstream CPU.
Barto
<strong>
OK. I won't bother sharing what I know anymore -- no worries. It has gotten rather pointless, anyway, no one believes you when you say something they don't like, even if it is the truth, and then the ad hominen attacks begin.
'tis not worth it indeed.</strong><hr></blockquote>
"now, now,.."
/me hands moki a lollypop
"you can just ignore the posts you dislike - like the people that you got pissed off at do."
Apple is a big customer, and even if that doesn't suffice, they're no the only customers who need fast chips.
I think there's way too much hacking going on over Motorola. Everyone wishes them dead in hell.
After all, the chips are great, the design is great. Their only fault is that they have problems gettin thigns up to speed, and everyone seems to think that they're the only ones facing that problem. Which of course isn't true at all, just look at Intel. Their Itanium is progressing backwards and they have to cook up alternatives "Yamhill" in case Itanium doesn't leap forward anymore.
Face it, chip design isn't childs play, thus there's unlikely going to be childish "revenge" acting either.
Give Motorola some of the peace they deserve, and just wait and see what's coming. You're certainly not going to help it by calling them dead, incompetent or whatever. the more that words gets spread, the more influence it's going to have on their stock/shares, and that eventually really wil get them to their knees.
G-news
"8xxx integrated processor targeting the communication and consumer markets"
well. that said, the embedded "G5" is in the final stage of development (dubbed 8450)
and there IS NOT EVEN A DESKTOP G5 PROECESSOR PLANNED. IT NEVER WAS.
it's targetted at the high end embedded and consumer markets, but not ment as a dekstop computing cpu. and mot planned this years ago already.
man, i'm pissed ;-)
at least this figure doesn't show us ANY information about any planned desktop processor after the g4 which is mentioned as "desktop computing" processor. so there either be one which is completely secret or none.
Now let's think about this thread. Suppose that this thread were an article in a newspaper. A newspaper along the lines of, say, a London tabloid might have given this article/thread a title more or less along the lines of the one it has. This is my roundabout way of saying that this thread has a sensationalistic title.
Meanwhile, if this thread were an article in a good newspaper, I would suggest that a more appropriate title might be something like,
"Anonymous troll posts anti-Mac BS in bulletin board".
See? Extract the sensationalism and you're left with very little indeed.
Originally posted by RazzFazz:
Pretty unlikely. After all, Motorola is a business, and as such, their primary concern is more likely to be making money rather than sacrificing profits just in order to exact some sort of personal revenge for long-bygone deeds.
<strong>You'd hope.
That's one reason why corps have boards of directors: to prevent childish personal motives from ruining the enterprise.
[changed stuff]
[ 02-02-2002: Message edited by: BuonRotto ]</p>
This is just a little fantasy that Apple fan boys have cooked up. IBM hasn't done any better than Mot a ramping up clock speeds. You're just in a tiff cause the x86 side seems much faster. It isn't, unless you play games. Apples could stand to be cheaper, but their performance is quite good. The whole AIM group just misread the marketing possibilities and it will take a generation of product to correct that. In reality the PPC offers comparable performance, faster in areas and slower in others. With significant advantages for DSP type stuff and photo/video work and significant disadvantages for 3-d. That's it. The chip competes. The platform competes. It's a little too expensive, sure. But there isn't now, nor has there ever been any animostity or associated conspiracy over the killing of clones.
<a href="http://e-www.motorola.com/collateral/MPC5XX120301PWC.pdf"; target="_blank">http://e-www.motorola.com/collateral/MPC5XX120301PWC.pdf</a>;
specifically, check out the roadmap towards the end of the pdf... if the g5 is referred to as Book E (which mot and ibm have used as the basis of future ppc processors), looks like we'll be waiting till next year at least...
can't wait till my new dual comes in Monday... been procrastinating an upgrade since I bought my beige g3 the day they were released years ago... so very long overdue..