Designers were clear that it was an awful choice. It was removed for that exact reason.
The reasons against it were just about readability at lower sizes and that it's used everywhere but it (or similar variations, mostly Arial) is used all over the entire internet so it being used everywhere is hardly a negative unless the entire internet should now change too. The complaints weren't about its aesthetic. I think it would be nice if they'd round out the curves to be more circular even if they only do it at larger font sizes - it gives more room compressing it on something like the Watch. When people write circular letters they come out very smooth and don't have abrupt changes in curvature. That kind of thing makes the San Francisco font look unnatural and computerized. Some of the letters and kerning are much improved over Helvetica Neue, putting some smoother curvature back in wouldn't be such a big deal. They probably didn't rework the whole font because there are thousand of glyphs to cover with Asian characters, Arabic etc.
They are talking about the line thickness or font weight. If you turn on bold text, that is a heavier font weight or thicker font. Some people complained that thin fonts were hard to see on non-Retina displays or in areas of low contrast where the background was too close in color to the foreground.
Designers were clear that it was an awful choice. It was removed for that exact reason.
The change (and criticism from designers) had nothing whatsoever to do with it being an unattractive font. There were (and are) legibility issues at very small sizes, which were largely addressed by switching from Helvetica Neue Light to the standard weight.
Helvetica Neue is a beautiful font; its ubiquity and long (long long) life is a testament to that. It's the exact opposite of "flashy" (as you incomprehensibly seem to think). It's the typographic equivalent of water — perfectly well suited to its use in a user interface that needs to accompany every other possible design or typeface.
The change (and criticism from designers) had nothing whatsoever to do with it being an unattractive font. There were (and are) legibility issues at very small sizes, which were largely addressed by switching from Helvetica Neue Light to the standard weight.
Helvetica Neue is a beautiful font; its ubiquity and long (long long) life is a testament to that. It's the exact opposite of "flashy" (as you incomprehensibly seem to think). It's the typographic equivalent of water — perfectly well suited to its use in a user interface that needs to accompany every other possible design or typeface.
Which goes back to design follows form and function, it was an awful choice for a system wide font. That is exactly what aesthetics are about. A font may be nice for one thing but not another. A good designer does not need anyone reminding them of that. It should be instinctive.
Not a fan. If Helvetica is designed to evoke transparency, efficiency, and trustworthiness, and Roboto is designed to evoke science, magic, and possibility, then to me San Francisco feels like it was designed to evoke burn out, depression, and hopelessness.
I wonder how many people are chuckling at a font named San Francisco because they remember the original San Francisco (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/San_Francisco_(1984_typeface))? I have to wonder why they feel the need to use the name for something so completely different.
Maybe they shouldn't be driving if they can't see?
Quote:
Originally Posted by BoC
It is easy for young designers not to think of how older people with limited vision deal with difficult type faces.
Toyota used to make their designers wear glasses smeared with vaseline to let them see if they could operate controls inside of Toyota vehicle mockups.
Somewhere in there is a joke about Asians and driving...
We started talking about essentially Helvetica Neue and its thin lines. Just like with car dashboards, a lot of people who use computers do NOT have 20/20 vision.
Cars have another unique user situation that young people don't appreciate. Many older people have 'night time blindness' as their vision is far less clear in reduced illumination. There is more than one form of night vision problem.
Asians may have some driving issues, but where I live, the most dangerous ones are young blonds behind the wheel with a cell phone in their hand.
I'm going to go out on a limb here because we're not supposed to do this around here... however my instinct tells me that SJ would not have allowed alot of what was in the redesign of iOS 7 ever see the light if day. Especially Helvetica Neue, a font that I know, love and have used in print for over 30 years as a designer.
@mstone - trained by some of the best typographers in the world in LA along Wishire Blvd...:p
Cue the expected bitching and whining, even though there's no reason o believe this will be any worse than current. Not a single positive comment, a single person giving Apple the benefit of the doubt. I mean, not like they deserve that at least, right?
Keep it up guys.
To be honest, I'd be a lot more concerned about the font change if the majority of people here liked it.
Comments
Not.
..well that changes everything!
No good designer would have used Nue in the first place
Thousands of great designers would disagree.
Designers were clear that it was an awful choice. It was removed for that exact reason.
Too thin? What?
Exactly, why make a big deal about it when almost no one will notice.
Unless you name is "everyone" and you speak for everyone, this comment is a big ol' non sequitur.
The reasons against it were just about readability at lower sizes and that it's used everywhere but it (or similar variations, mostly Arial) is used all over the entire internet so it being used everywhere is hardly a negative unless the entire internet should now change too. The complaints weren't about its aesthetic. I think it would be nice if they'd round out the curves to be more circular even if they only do it at larger font sizes - it gives more room compressing it on something like the Watch. When people write circular letters they come out very smooth and don't have abrupt changes in curvature. That kind of thing makes the San Francisco font look unnatural and computerized. Some of the letters and kerning are much improved over Helvetica Neue, putting some smoother curvature back in wouldn't be such a big deal. They probably didn't rework the whole font because there are thousand of glyphs to cover with Asian characters, Arabic etc.
They are talking about the line thickness or font weight. If you turn on bold text, that is a heavier font weight or thicker font. Some people complained that thin fonts were hard to see on non-Retina displays or in areas of low contrast where the background was too close in color to the foreground.
Designers were clear that it was an awful choice. It was removed for that exact reason.
The change (and criticism from designers) had nothing whatsoever to do with it being an unattractive font. There were (and are) legibility issues at very small sizes, which were largely addressed by switching from Helvetica Neue Light to the standard weight.
Helvetica Neue is a beautiful font; its ubiquity and long (long long) life is a testament to that. It's the exact opposite of "flashy" (as you incomprehensibly seem to think). It's the typographic equivalent of water — perfectly well suited to its use in a user interface that needs to accompany every other possible design or typeface.
So still got that fugly flat minimalistic POS user interface going on there, eh?
exactly. the entire user interface needs an overhaul AWAY FROM this minimalistic garbage.
Still too thin. Icons still ugly. Etc.
Which goes back to design follows form and function, it was an awful choice for a system wide font. That is exactly what aesthetics are about. A font may be nice for one thing but not another. A good designer does not need anyone reminding them of that. It should be instinctive.
Maybe they shouldn't be driving if they can't see?
It is easy for young designers not to think of how older people with limited vision deal with difficult type faces.
Toyota used to make their designers wear glasses smeared with vaseline to let them see if they could operate controls inside of Toyota vehicle mockups.
Somewhere in there is a joke about Asians and driving...
We started talking about essentially Helvetica Neue and its thin lines. Just like with car dashboards, a lot of people who use computers do NOT have 20/20 vision.
Cars have another unique user situation that young people don't appreciate. Many older people have 'night time blindness' as their vision is far less clear in reduced illumination. There is more than one form of night vision problem.
Asians may have some driving issues, but where I live, the most dangerous ones are young blonds behind the wheel with a cell phone in their hand.
So still got that fugly flat minimalistic POS user interface going on there, eh?
Welcome to the block list!
@mstone - trained by some of the best typographers in the world in LA along Wishire Blvd...:p
Cue the expected bitching and whining, even though there's no reason o believe this will be any worse than current. Not a single positive comment, a single person giving Apple the benefit of the doubt. I mean, not like they deserve that at least, right?
Keep it up guys.
To be honest, I'd be a lot more concerned about the font change if the majority of people here liked it.