MS: "we'll be evaluating this business with Apple."

Posted:
in General Discussion edited January 2014
From <a href="http://maccentral.macworld.com/news/0207/15.osxmarketing.php"; target="_blank">this MacCentral/WSJ article.</a>



[quote]Wall Street Journal staff reporter Pui-Wing Tam quoted MacBU head Kevin Browne as saying that Apple hasn't made "a concerted effort" to promote Mac OS X, despite opportunity and his company's demonstrated willingness to support the platform. Browne also reassured Tam that Microsoft will deliver another Macintosh version of Office next year, but expressed long-term concern about Microsoft's opportunities in the Mac market.



"If things don't dramatically turn around, we'll be evaluating this business with Apple," said Browne. Microsoft said that it has sold 300,000 copies of Office v. X, less than half of the 750,000 copies it reportedly expected to sell since the software was released late last year.



Browne's comments drew criticism from Apple's senior vice president of worldwide product marketing, Phil Schiller. Schiller told the Wall Street Journal that Microsoft's concerns are "very, very misplaced" and suggested that the $499 price tag of Office may be a reason why Microsoft's sales are sluggish.<hr></blockquote>
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Comments

  • Reply 1 of 67
    rokrok Posts: 3,519member
    doesn't surprise me that they are startign with the strong-arming tactics again. now that the exclusive office development deal is over, the MacBU is generally considered a rogue nation int he M$ empire, and Apple's new Switch campaign, where you get a bunch of people ragging on Windows for 30 seconds at a time, well...



    I'me betting Mr. Ballmer is beginning to sweat. And we all know that is not a pretty sight.
  • Reply 2 of 67
    [quote]Originally posted by BRussell:

    <strong>"If things don't dramatically turn around, we'll be evaluating this business with Apple," said Browne. Microsoft said that it has sold 300,000 copies of Office v. X, less than half of the 750,000 copies it reportedly expected to sell since the software was released late last year.</strong><hr></blockquote>



    So let's see here, 300k copies at between $280 and $460 works about to about $80-130 million in revenue. I'd say MS is making out pretty good. And maybe more people would feel like upgrading if they had actually added some useful new features to this latest version.
  • Reply 3 of 67
    donnydonny Posts: 231member
    I just saw a news article with this information, and much more, in it. It is here: <a href="http://netscape.com.com/2100-1103-943861.html"; target="_blank">http://netscape.com.com/2100-1103-943861.html</a>;



    It reads:



    Microsoft steps in Macworld's spotlight



    By Joe Wilcox

    Special to ZDNet News

    July 15, 2002, 8:00 AM PT



    Microsoft on Monday launched the first of several preemptive strikes against Apple Computer's Macworld trade show by making announcements about new technologies far ahead of their delivery to market.



    The strategic attack comes as tensions mount between Apple and Microsoft. During Macworld five years ago, the two companies announced a five-year technology agreement, whereby Microsoft committed to continued development of Office and Internet Explorer for the Mac. The two companies have yet to extend that agreement.



    In Microsoft's first salvo, the company revealed details about the next version of its digital media technology, code-named Corona, including that it officially will be known as Windows Media 9 Series. Microsoft Chairman Bill Gates is slated to launch the first public beta, or test, version of Windows Media at a Sept. 4 event.





    Microsoft is expected to make other digital media and consumer announcements this week designed to steal thunder from Macworld, which starts Wednesday in New York. Last week, Microsoft said that later this year it will release a new line of 802.11b wireless networking products. Apple has been selling similar technology, called AirPort, for more than two years.



    Technology Business Research analyst Bob Sutherland said Microsoft's marketing strategy isn't surprising.



    "There's no doubt that Microsoft is going to try and play catch up with Apple," he said. "But Apple, when it comes to the real productive space---whether it's artists, architects or musicians--owns that market. Apple is going to continue to drive that down to typical day-to-day consumers."



    Microsoft's Mac commitment appears to be wavering, spurred in part by recent actions on the part of Apple. Sources close to Microsoft's Macintosh Business Unit (MacBU) said, in fact, that executives are divided about how committed the company should remain to Apple.



    "We're not seeing a lot of gratitude around here," said one source, who asked not to be identified.



    Still, the distancing between the two companies, which do compete in the operating system market, shouldn't be surprising, say analysts.



    "Five years ago, Apple was all too happy to do whatever it took to make that deal happen," said Gartner analyst David Smith. "At this point in time, Apple is a little less dependent on Microsoft. They're acting more independent."



    Referring to the investment Microsoft made in Apple at the time of the five-year deal, Smith said: "What does $150 million buy you? It doesn't buy you eternal gratitude."



    Stealing thunder

    Microsoft's preemptive strikes against Apple come as Apple CEO Steve Jobs prepares to announce a new flat-panel iMac with a larger 17-inch liquid-crystal display and that Mac OS X 10.2 will be ready ahead of schedule.



    Microsoft's thunder-stealing activity also is, in part, a warning that Apple, which has less than 5 percent market share compared with Windows PC makers, needs to understand its place, said sources familiar with the strategy.



    Microsoft apparently believes that it has delivered on the promises of the five-year agreement but that Apple has failed to do what is necessary to properly support its partners. Microsoft, for example, was instrumental in helping Apple resolve problems with Mac OS X, the next-generation version of the Macintosh operating system released in March 2001. That effort culminated in the September release of Mac OS X 10.1, soon followed by the release of Office v. X and many other important applications that run natively on the new operating system.



    But after the turn of year, Microsoft began looking more closely at how Apple marketed OS X 10.1, complaining the Mac maker failed to put out enough marketing dollars to drive adoption of the new operating system. That adoption was crucial to Microsoft, which developed Office v. X to run only on OS X and not the older OS 9.



    Microsoft has been reluctant to release sales figures for Office v. X, which some analysts take to mean that customers aren't jumping on the new version. Some people at Microsoft blame the marketing of OS X for this problem, sources said.



    Still, sales have declined steadily through the release of Office v. X. Between August 1997 and August 2001, the number of Mac Office users declined from 8 million to about 3.5 million, according to Microsoft.



    While sales may be falling, analysts point out that not all the blame should fall on Apple. Microsoft, for example, cuts lucrative deals with Windows PC makers for carrying Office XP Small Business Edition, while Mac users must pay as much as $300 or more for Macintosh Office.



    Microsoft's criticisms of how Apple markets OS X also fails to take into account how Microsoft sells Windows. The software titan typically pours out the most marketing money when a new operating system is released because that's when people are most likely to buy a copy at retail. Thereafter, sales trickle of boxed copies as the majority of people choose to get the OS with a new computer.



    "Apple is always looking for people to replace older Apples, not to upgrade the OS," Sutherland said. "Apple is more typically interested in new sales than upgrades."



    Questioning partnership

    Redmond, Wash.-based Microsoft also has continued to develop other Mac products, releasing in the early summer new versions of MSN Messenger and Internet Explorer for OS X.



    IE 5.2, in fact, takes advantage of unique Mac OS X features, such as the Quartz 2D rendering engine. The new version supports enhanced Quartz 2D font smoothing that greatly improves the look of Web pages. But rather than reciprocate, Apple has been cutting deals with one of Microsoft's chief rivals.



    Apple's decision, for example, to include the iChat instant messenger program with Mac OS X 10.2 that connects to AOL's Instant Messenger network caught Microsoft executives by surprise, sources said. And it wasn't the first Apple deal with the Microsoft rival. Late last year, Apple cut a deal whereby Netscape took over the default homepage for Macs. Microsoft responded to this with the release of IE 5.2, which switches the default home page to MSN.



    Another part of the problem lies in Apple's recent "switchers" marketing to woo PC users to the Mac. The Cupertino, Calif.-based company is running 10 commercials featuring former Windows PC users who have switched to the Mac. Some of those TV ads could be interpreted as direct attacks against Windows or Microsoft.



    The unceremonious attacks on Microsoft have irked some high-level executives, sources said. As a policy, Microsoft rarely speaks out against partners. Even when bugs in Mac OS X hampered the release of Office v. X, MacBU took the heat for product delays rather than blaming Apple. Only after the release of Mac OS X 10.1, did MacBU general manager Kevin Browne discuss the 70 fixes Microsoft assisted Apple with.



    Managers, apparently, don't see the same goodwill coming out of Cupertino.



    Mac OS X 10.2, code-named Jaguar, has raised considerable concern in Redmond as well. Jaguar adds some new features "that have some people loosing sleep," said one source. "You don't know what kind of cultural paranoia we have here" about competitors.



    "I can understand that Microsoft isn't 100 percent happy," Smith said. "But then again, I don't expect them to be 100 percent happy with the relationship with any company."



    Browne did not respond to a request for comment. Apple executives could not be reached for comment because of preparation for Macworld.



    I found it interesting, personally...
  • Reply 3 of 67
    hmurchisonhmurchison Posts: 12,355member
    Pretty ballsy. Corel even has the nerve to speak. Try shipping some decent software before spouting guys. Corel hasn't done much with Painter and some of the other programs they purchased. Funny...I doubt that XP has the same market penetration.



    There really needs to be an Interoperable standard for Documents. Microsoft has really impeded the growth of computers despite what it's lemmings say.
  • Reply 5 of 67
    torifiletorifile Posts: 4,024member
    So no one caught the reference to the 17" iMac supposed to be released this week? It was the only thing in that article that was actual 'news.' We all knew the rest. Of course the fact that appleworks hasn' been updated in, what, 2 years, combined with this rancour may be a sign that Apple is getting ready for a fight. Good for them. I hope we win.
  • Reply 6 of 67
    groveratgroverat Posts: 10,872member
    I'd be interested to know what this means:

    [quote]Microsoft, for example, was instrumental in helping Apple resolve problems with Mac OS X, the next-generation version of the Macintosh operating system released in March 2001.<hr></blockquote>
  • Reply 7 of 67
    jerombajeromba Posts: 357member
    Apple is wakin' up a sleeping giant, that's not good. Retaliation is there. The war has begun !

    From MS:

    ...Apple, which has less than 5 percent market share compared with Windows PC makers, needs to understand its place...



    ...if things don't dramatically turn around, we'll be evaluating this business with Apple...



    ...The unceremonious (the swith campaign) attacks on Microsoft have irked some high-level executives...



    ...Jaguar adds some new features "that have some people loosing sleep"...



    I hope that the Steve Job's team is completely aware of what they do, if not we will see Apple fall as fast as the WWTC towers ! (sorry for the comparison). They certainly must have some really good apps and new machines to compete.

    When you realize all the anger of MS plus the fact that they don't want to see OPEN GL to succeed... things can go really bad and fast.



    The Ammos:

    QuickTime 6, Jaguar, iApps, Whatever really fast & cheap Mac <img src="graemlins/hmmm.gif" border="0" alt="[Hmmm]" /> , AppleWorks ?, iPod, iWhatever Hardware, .MAC ?



    I think we will see the second attack from Apple, July 17.



    [ 07-15-2002: Message edited by: jeromba ]</p>
  • Reply 8 of 67
    I like this part:



    [quote]Jaguar adds some new features "that have some people loosing sleep," said one source.<hr></blockquote>



    Anyway, the potential of no Office for Mac should have set some things in motion at Apple (several years ago). Perhaps it's arrogance or maybe Apple has something prepared, but Phil Schiller's riposte probably wasn't what Microsoft expected to hear.
  • Reply 9 of 67
    rokrok Posts: 3,519member
    okay, how hard would it be for Apple to integrate the current open-source office environments into a new version of appleworks. this would free people from having to use ms office just to open their word documents, excel spreadsheets, and powerpoint presentations.



    plus, don't forget that apple pulled no punches during the antitrust lawsuits, declaring that microsoft had kept the pressure up to slow development of technologies such as quicktime.



    microsoft, i have news for you. i have read jonathan swift. you may think you're surrounded by lilliputians, but if you fall asleep, they'll hand you your ass.



    keep that in mind as you buy up more technologies, try to claim open-source initiatives as your own, and generally piss off every developer that doesn't work for you. you could get a tech-sector-wide strike on your hands faster than you can blink.
  • Reply 10 of 67
    progmacprogmac Posts: 1,850member
    it seems like apple could have better relations in all sectors. competitors say they have relation problems with apple, not to mention consumers who complain about apple, lousy customer and warranty support.



    in apple's position, keeping good relations with everyon is very important, and in that regard, apple does need to "know its place"
  • Reply 11 of 67
    aquaticaquatic Posts: 5,602member
    Forget G5s.



    Microsoft could cancel Apple, yesterday.



    All it needs to do is kill Office for the Mac. Then Apple dies. No exceptions. And I can't see a reason for the MacBU now that the agreement is gone.



    Office alternatives are a joke. Appleworks is OK, compatability is pretty good, but it feels alien. And it isn't the same. BBEdit is great but also isn't the same. And no one kid themselves, those open source software packages are crap. I'm not saying open source is crap or that I could do better, it just takes much more time to make open source software good from an end user perspective.



    Apple needs to take this extremely seriously. We all know this is a veiled attempt to finally kill off that pesky little company with the bits of fruit adorning their computers.



    No one wins a court battle with some one as rich as M$. This is America! They were told to separate IE from Win98. Did they? They were "broken up." Are they?



    And also, maybe it would help if Office wasn't so expensive people had to pirate it



    What can Apple do?
  • Reply 12 of 67
    rokrok Posts: 3,519member
    [quote]Originally posted by progmac:

    <strong>competitors say they have relation problems with apple, not to mention consumers who complain about apple, lousy customer and warranty support.

    </strong><hr></blockquote>



    like who? i'm not trying to be difficult, i am just sincerely curious. the smaller independent developers seem to have trouble with apple often, but who else?



    [quote]Originally posted by progmac:

    <strong>

    in apple's position, keeping good relations with everyon is very important, and in that regard, apple does need to "know its place"</strong><hr></blockquote>



    yeah, except that that was not how the article implied that statement. but, then again, you'll notice it wasn't a direct quote from c|net, so maybe they (i.e. c|net) are trying to fan the flames of this conflict? probably wouldn't be the first time...
  • Reply 13 of 67
    hmurchisonhmurchison Posts: 12,355member
    Perhaps Apple's move to Digital Video and Audio is hedging their bets that Microshaft might eventually kill Office for the Mac. But then again other than file format does anyone REALLY need any of the new features of Office. It's honestly an app(suite) that has run its course for innovation. PDF is more readily available and in many cases i'd rather someone send me a PDF than a .doc.
  • Reply 14 of 67
    drewpropsdrewprops Posts: 2,321member
    Well what a fine kettle of fish we have here.



    The rumblings from M$ are frightening, they've given us their timeline...we've got one more product rev then they're dropping the platform. How will this affect the anti-trust suit? Probably little at this point.



    Appleworks and other productivity apps are fine for people who don't work in the real business world. Those of us who work side by side with PC users every day need that peer relationship with our colleagues.



    This, again, is a very frightening declaration.



    Perhaps M$ is posturing for position.



    I -do- think that they're RIGHT though. Heck, why doesn't APPLE show people how the FREAKING operating system looks on television....stop being all cutesy and show the damn reason we use these pretty boxes!
  • Reply 15 of 67
    The other factor at work is MS thinks they are going to beat the antitrust rap. THey basically told the judge to screw off when asked for a compromise. They have already announced their intention to fight whatever penalties the court hands down all the way to the supreme court. Bush isn't going to be real anxious to get drawn into another long expensive risky anti-trust case against M$, especially when most of his voters would be like "Why?".



    MS is feeling its oats and will not be happy until they have total monopoly and we are all paying them $100+ a year per unit for the privilege of using our computers. People are sheep. They'll just add the Microsoft bill in with all the others.



    Once Apple is destroyed there will only be Linux (aka: the gang who can't shoot straight) and even with Apple out of the way they'll never get above a 1% installed desktop marketshare. If you game or install lots of software, time spent playing with settings and recompiling, figuring which distro's instructions to use, etc is going to make $10-25 a month look cheap. The Mac community will be left a bitter shell like Amiga users are now. IBM is working with some Japanese manufacturers on a new operating system for its Cell processor, but these are the folks who couldn't sell OS/2.



    M$ is always looking for more, and with the OS well dry, the few developers who have not yet been subsumed will be crushed. Don't weep for Wordperfect Adobe, for soon people will speak of Photoshop in the same way. Also digital gadgets and the most of the PC manufacturers will subsume beneath the Geological force that is Microsoft.



    Yes, Americans will let it happen. We're the nation that let Wal-Mart and their ilk destroy our retail and factory base. I voted for GWB and I will again but unless we got a real corporation hating liberal in office it will happen within the next 5 years.....
  • Reply 16 of 67
    torifiletorifile Posts: 4,024member
    So everyone and his brother is speculating that Apple has OS X running on x86, but no one thinks that Apple has a kick-ass office suite ready to roll should MS decide that they'd rather kill off MBU than have them make software? AW hasn't been updated in 2 years!! There's no way in hell something like office support being lost wasn't something that they had thought about and prepared for. Sure, some business users may be cut out of the loop if office is pulled, but I for one would love to eradicate that infectious piece of junk from my computer if there was an alternative.



    Heh, who knows, maybe if the MacBU decides to call it quits (or someone decides for them) Apple can purchase the code from them. THey've got the money and if it's not going to be further developed it won't make any money for MS, so they might as well sell it. Right? Nah, just a pipe dream...



    I'm just waiting for an Apple Office (and a PDA to go with it )



    edit: I just realized the new iApp: iOffice and the next iDevice: the iPDA. I can't wait



    [ 07-15-2002: Message edited by: torifile ]</p>
  • Reply 17 of 67
    thuh freakthuh freak Posts: 2,664member
    [quote]Originally posted by torifile:

    <strong>So everyone and his brother is speculating that Apple has OS X running on x86, but no one thinks that Apple has a kick-ass office suite ready to roll should MS decide that they'd rather kill off MBU than have them make software? AW hasn't been updated in 2 years!! There's no way in hell something like office support being lost wasn't something that they had thought about and prepared for. Sure, some business users may be cut out of the loop if office is pulled, but I for one would love to eradicate that infectious piece of junk from my computer if there was an alternative.



    Heh, who knows, maybe if the MacBU decides to call it quits (or someone decides for them) Apple can purchase the code from them. THey've got the money and if it's not going to be further developed it won't make any money for MS, so they might as well sell it. Right? Nah, just a pipe dream...



    I'm just waiting for an Apple Office (and a PDA to go with it )



    edit: I just realized the new iApp: iOffice and the next iDevice: the iPDA. I can't wait



    [ 07-15-2002: Message edited by: torifile ]</strong><hr></blockquote>



    okay, i dont think apple has osx on x86, but thats another issue. Apple will probably come out with something to take the place of office, but I seriously doubt it'll be based on anything from the MBU. MS isn't about to kill support for Macs only to sell Apple their mac unit. It just doesn't make any sense.



    I think Apple's office alternative will be based on OpenOffice. Maybe they'll pick up OpenOffice, use its innards and fix the interface to be x-native. They won't be able to sell it tho, becuase its based on a GPL i think tho. I guess we'll have to get office for phre.
  • Reply 18 of 67
    qaziiqazii Posts: 305member
    The OS wars have (re)begun....



    With the many good OS X web browsers out there, Apple is no longer dependant on IE. With Mail, Apple no longer needs OE/Entourage. The only thing that Apple really depends on from MS is Office.



    Apple still has a couple years before war is openly declared. By the time Office:mac is cancelled, Apple needs to have a good replacement. As they have supposedly been working it for the past 2 years, and have a couple years more to go, I think Apple will be able to release a good enough replacement for office if MS canceled it.



    Apple has made several smart moves in regards to the coming war. With its own retail stores, Apple would be able to survive even if MS were to somehow force stores such as CompUSA to stop selling Macs. Furthermore, with OS X based on Unix, Apple has the open-source sommunity behind them.



    With proper actions, I think Apple might be able to defeat Microsoft.
  • Reply 19 of 67
    cindercinder Posts: 381member
    You can pretty much guarantee that Apple is working on their own office suite - namely AppleWorks.



    I remember reasing a rumor about this somewhere . . . about AppleWorks Home and AppleWorks Office . . .
  • Reply 20 of 67
    hobbeshobbes Posts: 1,252member
    [quote]Originally posted by Aquatik:

    <strong>Forget G5s.



    Microsoft could cancel Apple, yesterday.



    All it needs to do is kill Office for the Mac. Then Apple dies. No exceptions. And I can't see a reason for the MacBU now that the agreement is gone.



    Office alternatives are a joke. Appleworks is OK, compatability is pretty good, but it feels alien. And it isn't the same. BBEdit is great but also isn't the same. And no one kid themselves, those open source software packages are crap. I'm not saying open source is crap or that I could do better, it just takes much more time to make open source software good from an end user perspective.



    Apple needs to take this extremely seriously. We all know this is a veiled attempt to finally kill off that pesky little company with the bits of fruit adorning their computers.



    No one wins a court battle with some one as rich as M$. This is America! They were told to separate IE from Win98. Did they? They were "broken up." Are they?



    And also, maybe it would help if Office wasn't so expensive people had to pirate it



    What can Apple do? </strong><hr></blockquote>





    I agree that this is nothing more than a very unsubtle threat by Microsoft to keep Apple in line.



    And I agree that Microsoft's power to simply cancel Office for Mac is enormous.



    But such an action wouldn't mean Apple's death. It would mean some serious hard times ahead.



    Here's Apple's options, as I see them:



    1. Transform AppleWorks into consumer-level suite OfficeWorks and business-level suite OfficeWorks Pro. They will have to be 99.9% MS Office friendly and compatible. This is an *enormous* effort and will take an *enormous* amount of resources. The one advantage Apple has is that MS Office hasn't changed very much in last few years.



    (Alternitively, Apple could be crafty and purchase and reinvent ThinkFree or develop an amazing front-end to Star Office, or some other open source office suite.)



    Whatever the solution, they will then have to market this suite as Office STANDARD.



    Will this work? Will people buy it? Trust it? It's impossible to know. It's a complete gamble. MS is clearly confident that their Office is a key to their hold on the industry, an no one will accept an Office-compatible alternative. They may be right. They may be wrong.



    2. Make nice with Microsoft (as much as Apple can, while competiting with Windows!) and keep Office v. X alive for as long as possible.



    3. Hope and pray for U.S. court-appointed board to oversee future Microsoft monopolistic actions.



    What will Apple do? No doubt, all of the above.



    [ 07-15-2002: Message edited by: Hobbes ]</p>
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